This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Some have claimed that the alleged violence/vandalism/abuses by the protesters or their sympathisers did not exist. I have collected below a list of reports that show otherwise.
To avoid wasting time on pointless arguments, let me state the obvious:
Also note:
Overview: relatively balanced accounts
https://www.rthk.hk/tv/dtt31/programme/hkcc/episode/589411
An incomplete time line:
21 June 2019: Vandalism and arson.
"Protesters start a fire at the gates of Tuen Mun police station after spray painting its wall with profanities."
"Bricks are thrown at Tuen Mun police station, smashing the windows on the first floor, and a rubbish bin is set alight."
1 July 2019: violence
"The violence, perpetrated by mostly masked youths wearing helmets, was on a scale that stunned the city. Thirteen police officers were taken to hospital after they were splashed with an unidentified liquid, believed to be drain cleaner, during clashes around the city’s legislative and administrative centre."
"They used a cage trolley and metal poles to repeatedly ram the glass front, swearing at and manhandling a handful of opposition lawmakers who had supported their protests so far but were trying to stop the violence.
Their appeals for calm were ignored, and pan-democrat legislator Leung Yiu-chung, 66, was physically tackled and flung to the ground as he tried to stand between them and the building front."
7 July 2019: Doxxing arrests
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1466464-20190703.htm
15 July 2019: doxxing claims
"A tactic called doxxing, which involves posting the private data of police officers and their families online, has been widespread over the past weeks."
"About 180 police officers have been attacked and injured during the Hong Kong protests, with their families subjected to "intimidation and bullying", the Hong Kong government said on Sunday (Aug 18)"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/14/police-and-protesters-clash-in-second-hong-kong-town
"The public broadcaster RTHK later said that 22 people were admitted to hospital after the clashes, of whom three were in serious condition. It reported that 11 police officers were injured in the unrest and two lost fingers"
16 July 2019: police injury
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1468658-20190716.htm
"A student on Tuesday appeared in court accused of biting off part of a police officer's finger during clashes in Sha Tin on Sunday."
24 July 2019: vandalism, abuses
http://www.ejinsight.com/20190724-graves-of-lawmaker-junius-ho-s-parents-vandalized/
"Pro-Beijing lawmaker Junius Ho Kwan-yiu reported to the police that the graves of his parents had been desecrated, days after he was seen shaking hands with some of the white-clad men who attacked pro-democracy activists and other commuters "
(A related issue: the junior police association condemned the vandals 'cockroaches'. This has been falsely twisted into them condemning all protesters cockroaches.
26 July 2019: Doxxing and abuse of police officers and their families
""“Dadfindboy” — a play on the name of a Facebook group created under the auspices of helping mothers find their children, but which ultimately became a way for pro-government groups to gather photos of protesters — is one forum for the doxxing of police officers. By turns facetious, juvenile, cruel and profane in tone, the channel repeatedly reveals personal information and photos, some of them intimate, of the family members of police officers, "
27 July 2019: abusing an elderly (who slap a sign off a protester's hand)
"A video of a group of young people jostling and swearing at an elderly man at Hong Kong’s airport on Saturday has gone viral online."
3 August 2019: vandalism
"Protesters and police clashed in Hong Kong again Saturday, as demonstrators seized a Chinese national flag from its pole and flung it into the city's Victoria Harbour, while police fired tear gas after protesters vandalised a police station."
5 August 2019: Violence, vandalism, arson, abusive language (used against families of police)
(Video shows an innocent driver was hit, his car vandalised. A lady in black attempted to snatch the cellphone off the hand of a lady in white when she was filming the incidence.)
"A driver who drove through a barricade was earlier stopped by an angry crowd at Healthy Street West, some of whom punched him and shattered his windshield as he got out and argued. A protester said the driver almost hit people with the vehicle."
"Protesters ignite a tree outside the homes of police officers and their families in Wong Tai Sin, after throwing bricks at the lower floors of the building and breaking windows."
(A video further down showed suspected Molotov cocktail being thrown into police station)
6 August 2019: Petrol bombs, arson, vandalism, abusive language against families
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXS6kWW_4co
(The fight in the first part (up to 2:00) of this video clip is widely reported. However, the vandalism perpetuated by the protesters shown in the second half is never mentioned by any outlet except for SCMP.)
(A related issue: the police was again accused of collusion with the thugs based on the fight. http://www.ejinsight.com/20190806-protesters-fight-off-attackers-in-north-point-tsuen-wan/ I don't know how this squares with what is shown in the second part.)
"Dozens of protesters chased after them until they reached the building, smashing the windows of the office as they asked for the men to be handed over. A man inside a flat in the building took out a knife and shouted at the protesters outside."
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1472926-20190806.htm?spTabChangeable=0
"The black-clad protesters attacked the buildings with bricks, defaced them with graffiti, and in many cases started fires outside the gates."
"Video circulating online showed what appears to be petrol bombs being thrown into a police station, setting the hood of at least one police car on fire."
https://www.zaobao.com.sg/realtime/china/story20190806-978732
"黄大仙纪律部队员工宿舍的入口立起水马,大门两边的墙壁上被涂鸦,上面写着“黑社会之家”"
(Some images show slurs like: Accidents will happen to your wife and daughter. The pics were from readers, but this particular slur can be seen on a pic on SCMP)
https://thestandnews.com/politics/黃大仙連續三天警民衝突-紀律部隊宿舍遭圍攻2/
"有人用噴漆在宿舍外牆上寫上「黑社會」、警訓等字句,並以雞蛋、磚頭掟向宿舍外牆,有玻璃窗碎裂,有示威者用鐳射激光照射宿舍的窗口。警方則不時從宿舍內,朝睦鄰街上的示威者施放催淚彈。"
https://www.hk01.com/社會新聞/360810/逃犯條例-黃大仙紀律部隊宿舍住戶多次被圍-不明白為何被攻擊 "宿舍住戶趙小姐表示,自己現時很怕示威者,晚上睡不著:「禍不及家人,我不明白示威者為何要攻擊宿舍。」但她認為,大部分年輕人都是和平理性的"
https://hk.on.cc/hk/bkn/cnt/news/20190806/bkn-20190806081533899-0806_00822_001_cn.html (Video shows the abusive languages painted on the wall outside of police's homes. Might not be a very reliable source, but it is corroborated by other sources)
7 August 2019: a video showing the damages due to previous violence
https://www.hk01.com/社會新聞/361172/逃犯條例-警短片展示紀律部隊宿舍家破情況-住戶-雙方應冷靜
10 August 2019: abusive language against police officers
http://cn.rfi.fr/中国/20190810-示威者盂兰节超度亡魂到黄大仙警察宿舍外烧纸钱15人被捕
https://www.hk01.com/突發/362092/除惡盂蘭晚會-黃大仙警察宿舍外清場-警拘捕5人涉非法集結
(The protesters or sympathisers chanted "阿SIR,收嘢啦". If you know Cantonese, you understand that this is a very offensive slur. They were calling on the police to collect the burned paper money, which is effectively a death curse against the police.)
12 August 2019: violence against police homes
https://www.france24.com/en/20190812-theyre-being-used-hong-kong-protests-divide-neighbourhood
"Poppy Chan, the wife of a police officer, was preparing dinner for her family when she heard the crash of a brick shattering the window of her third-floor apartment."
13 August 2019: Violence against two mainland travellers and an officer
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/article/hk-airport-paralyzed-for-second-day-by-protest/
"At one point a police officer pulled his handgun on protesters after he was beaten by protesters who had taken away his baton."
"One of the men detained by protesters had his hands secured with cable ties as he was forced to sit on a baggage trolley. Later the mob repeatedly kicked him as lay on the ground."
"For the first time in more than two months of clashes, a policeman drew his service revolver and pointed it at violent protesters at Hong Kong International Airport on August 13, but did not open fire. He was outnumbered and under attack by a group of protesters, one of whom snatched his baton and beat him with it."
http://std.stheadline.com/instant/articles/detail/1067018/即時-香港-機場集會-疑似公安內地男遭圍困-防暴警施放胡椒噴霧拘兩人
"該名男子自稱送機,爭執間疑跌下一個載有證件及木棍的背包,示威者翻查其銀包證件,發現他有內地身份證和港澳通行證,有人再以其姓名搜尋,再發現名字在內地公安名單上,遂懷疑他是內地公安並包圍,示威者用索帶綁起其雙手,並高叫「唔好畀佢走」。
至晚上8時許,有救護員到埸但示威者不容許帶走,現在情況僵持。至晚上9時許,該名男子仍然被示威者包圍,受困逾2小時,即使救護員在場仍然無果,期間男子遭示威者拳打腳踢,褲子更被扯去,露出內褲。晚上約10時,該名男子暈倒,救護員將他送上擔架床,並帶上氧氣罩。"
19 August 2019: abuses against MTR employees
"Off-duty MTR station officer Kwok Chi-keung was stunned when he ran into three youngsters on the streets of Sheung Shui, who without warning unleashed a torrent of abuse at him. “You dead blue ribbon""
"it took him a while to remember that his personal information had been put on social media, exposing him to the possibility of verbal attacks"
"Tam Kin-chiu, vice-chairman of the pro-Beijing Hong Kong Federation of Railway Trade Unions, also said his personal information including his mobile phone number was posted online late last month. A rail driver, Tam said he had since received numerous anonymous phone calls, some after midnight, and was also called by a financial agent inquiring if he had applied for loans."
19 August 2019: petrol bombs
"An officer suffered second-degree burns when he was hit by a petrol bomb thrown into the Tsim Sha Tsui police station compound "
22 August 2019: doxxing and online abuse
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1476173-20190822.htm?share=facebook
"The police on Thursday warned people against sending online threats or posting personal data of others, as it revealed that the information of more than 1,600 officers has been unlawfully collected and leaked since June."
(The video shows an image on a seem-to-be facebook page, which says "all police who had ever used violence, your children will not live past 7 if they are younger than 7...")
24 August 2019: violence with petrol bombs
"Hong Kong police fired volleys of tear gas to break up anti-government protests in a gritty industrial suburb on Saturday after activists threw petrol bombs and bricks"
(See also the picture further down the page)
25 August 2019: Violence in general and against a bystander
"In a now familiar pattern, the protesters threw bricks, petrol bombs, corrosive liquid and other projectiles at the police, who responded with tear gas, pepper balls and sponge grenades"
(Starting from 5:19 of the first video, a group of black-shirts attacked an unarmed white-shirt after some verbal exchanges, and beat him to the ground)
26 August 2019: Violence against police. Vandalism
"A Hong Kong police officer fired one warning shot into the air as protesters chased and attacked him and several colleagues with metal pipes during chaotic scenes in Tsuen Wan"
(33 seconds into the video, a police officer fell to the ground. The protesters continued to beat him with sticks. Then a police officer fired a warning shot.)
"Protesters smashed glass doors and windows in two mahjong parlours while scolding staff inside. They also tried to prise open the roller gate of an arcade gaming centre.
Security cameras and outer walls were also vandalised. The protesters left the site after a few minutes." Ltyl ( talk) 21:29, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
These sources show a back and forth in terms of the application of violence by protesters and police. Sometimes the use of violence by protesters is defensive, and sometimes it is offensive. But it is always with purpose and is political. Therefore, I believe the appropriate term is thus Rebellion. From the Wikipidia page:
Rebellion is a refusal of obedience or order. It refers to the open resistance against the orders of an established authority. A rebellion originates from a sentiment of indignation and disapproval of a situation and then manifests itself by the refusal to submit or to obey the authority responsible for this situation. Rebellion can be individual or collective, peaceful (civil disobedience, civil resistance, and nonviolent resistance) or violent (terrorism, sabotage and guerrilla warfare.)
In political terms, rebellion and revolt are often distinguished by their different aims. If rebellion generally seeks to evade and/or gain concessions from an oppressive power, a revolt seeks to overthrow and destroy that power, as well as its accompanying laws. The goal of rebellion is resistance while a revolt seeks a revolution.[citation needed] As power shifts relative to the external adversary, or power shifts within a mixed coalition, or positions harden or soften on either side, an insurrection may seesaw between the two forms.
I would also like to note that the on-going anti-elab protests are included here on the List of revolutions and rebellions. So the tag on the infobox should not be listed as "Violence" but as "Rebellion" as it is a much more accurate and apt description of the overall situation, and inherently includes the application of violence in its very definition. 65.60.163.223 ( talk) 19:21, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
In light of the discussion here, I've removed the Methods row from the infobox. As far as I can tell, there is almost no way for us to effectively, accurately and neutrally summarize protester methods sufficiently to fit such a constrained format. Let's keep it in the body where we can provide necessary context. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I fail to see how a word in an infobox is superior to a line in the body. Simonm223 ( talk) 16:05, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I am putting together a page based on the sources listed in a previous section. Suggestions and information are welcome. Ltyl ( talk) 21:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Okay, there is a new section in the Tactics and methods article, here:
Feel free to contribute and add content! Thanks. 65.60.163.223 ( talk) 06:50, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I heard the debates about the possibly martial law enaction from the Global Times (as always, GT supports the martial law). I believe it is important but I don’t have time to find realiable sources to confirm it.
Mariogoods ( talk) 03:07, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I discover that people in our society does not look out value which we generat cris in between one nation to other nation and is not good, will as a good citizenship we should learn how to value Jomolado ( talk) 13:59, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
I understand the desire for brevity in summary style, and I do concede that some shortening and tightening is in order before this page forks yet another child. However summaries that exclude key, due, reliably sourced details such as mob violence toward police severe enough to lead to the firing of a warning shot have a serious impact on WP:NPOV. When summarizing, please try to keep these sorts of matters in mind. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:42, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Reuters being a wire service, it often jumps on stuff first, before any significance is established. Is the discussion of the troop rotation actually due here? China claims it's a routine action. And frankly, carrying on like nothing is happening seems to be a preferred tactic whenever possible in these sorts of disputes, so it may very well be. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
It's due, the article clearly says why and I've edited the material to reflect that. Your personal opinions about what Reuters does and what Beijing prefers isn't relevant. I am notifying @ BJohn1087: to this discussion as the user was the one who added this info. Flaughtin ( talk) 20:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
likely to hit a nerve. I still don't believe this incident is due mention at all. It's clearly routine, and has happened at the same time for several years, but if it has, in fact hit any nerves find a source for that. Not a wire service speculating it might. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Added another article by Reuters that also says the rotation is routine. Ltyl ( talk) 09:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
The infobox now lists 6 goals. Most news reports still say 5 demands? Ltyl ( talk) 21:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I found the user UsernamesAllTaken added the Category:Riots and civil disorder in China, Category:Riots and civil disorder in Hong Kong. Should we remove it or keep it? Mariogoods ( talk) 10:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Hello all. There is an ongoing discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criticism of the 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests. Inside the discussion are some ideas about the direction of the article & sub-articles. Some articles are way too detailed, which violates WP:NOTNEWS. We should consider condensing it, or maybe transferring some content to WikiNews. Cheers. – Wefk423 ( talk) 16:02, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
If I want to add information about online activities which is not from Chinese government or protesters, where can I add this? (I have found the report about hkleaks.org in SCMP, if my memory isn't wrong) Mariogoods ( talk) 13:33, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved, per WP:SNOW. In the interest of clarity please propose any other move requests separately. El_C 03:38, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests →
2019 Hong Kong crisis – Since this protest is currently the longest, why not rename this page?
69.157.127.100 (
talk)
03:04, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
How about this opinion piece specifically, when it is used to support the allegation of violence by the police?
https://www.thenation.com/article/hong-kong-protests-china-police-brutality-democracy/
As an opinion piece, it merely repackaged previous allegations and piled more allegations on top. It looks problematic. The Nation mostly publishes commentaries and opinions. As far as I know, not reliable as a news source. Ltyl ( talk) 20:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
https://www.amnesty.org.hk/en/verified-hong-kong-police-violence-against-peaceful-protesters/
Ltyl ( talk) 20:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
The Nation is listed on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources as generally reliable though partisan. El_C 22:34, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Some have claimed that the alleged violence/vandalism/abuses by the protesters or their sympathisers did not exist. I have collected below a list of reports that show otherwise.
To avoid wasting time on pointless arguments, let me state the obvious:
Also note:
Overview: relatively balanced accounts
https://www.rthk.hk/tv/dtt31/programme/hkcc/episode/589411
An incomplete time line:
21 June 2019: Vandalism and arson.
"Protesters start a fire at the gates of Tuen Mun police station after spray painting its wall with profanities."
"Bricks are thrown at Tuen Mun police station, smashing the windows on the first floor, and a rubbish bin is set alight."
1 July 2019: violence
"The violence, perpetrated by mostly masked youths wearing helmets, was on a scale that stunned the city. Thirteen police officers were taken to hospital after they were splashed with an unidentified liquid, believed to be drain cleaner, during clashes around the city’s legislative and administrative centre."
"They used a cage trolley and metal poles to repeatedly ram the glass front, swearing at and manhandling a handful of opposition lawmakers who had supported their protests so far but were trying to stop the violence.
Their appeals for calm were ignored, and pan-democrat legislator Leung Yiu-chung, 66, was physically tackled and flung to the ground as he tried to stand between them and the building front."
7 July 2019: Doxxing arrests
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1466464-20190703.htm
15 July 2019: doxxing claims
"A tactic called doxxing, which involves posting the private data of police officers and their families online, has been widespread over the past weeks."
"About 180 police officers have been attacked and injured during the Hong Kong protests, with their families subjected to "intimidation and bullying", the Hong Kong government said on Sunday (Aug 18)"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/14/police-and-protesters-clash-in-second-hong-kong-town
"The public broadcaster RTHK later said that 22 people were admitted to hospital after the clashes, of whom three were in serious condition. It reported that 11 police officers were injured in the unrest and two lost fingers"
16 July 2019: police injury
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1468658-20190716.htm
"A student on Tuesday appeared in court accused of biting off part of a police officer's finger during clashes in Sha Tin on Sunday."
24 July 2019: vandalism, abuses
http://www.ejinsight.com/20190724-graves-of-lawmaker-junius-ho-s-parents-vandalized/
"Pro-Beijing lawmaker Junius Ho Kwan-yiu reported to the police that the graves of his parents had been desecrated, days after he was seen shaking hands with some of the white-clad men who attacked pro-democracy activists and other commuters "
(A related issue: the junior police association condemned the vandals 'cockroaches'. This has been falsely twisted into them condemning all protesters cockroaches.
26 July 2019: Doxxing and abuse of police officers and their families
""“Dadfindboy” — a play on the name of a Facebook group created under the auspices of helping mothers find their children, but which ultimately became a way for pro-government groups to gather photos of protesters — is one forum for the doxxing of police officers. By turns facetious, juvenile, cruel and profane in tone, the channel repeatedly reveals personal information and photos, some of them intimate, of the family members of police officers, "
27 July 2019: abusing an elderly (who slap a sign off a protester's hand)
"A video of a group of young people jostling and swearing at an elderly man at Hong Kong’s airport on Saturday has gone viral online."
3 August 2019: vandalism
"Protesters and police clashed in Hong Kong again Saturday, as demonstrators seized a Chinese national flag from its pole and flung it into the city's Victoria Harbour, while police fired tear gas after protesters vandalised a police station."
5 August 2019: Violence, vandalism, arson, abusive language (used against families of police)
(Video shows an innocent driver was hit, his car vandalised. A lady in black attempted to snatch the cellphone off the hand of a lady in white when she was filming the incidence.)
"A driver who drove through a barricade was earlier stopped by an angry crowd at Healthy Street West, some of whom punched him and shattered his windshield as he got out and argued. A protester said the driver almost hit people with the vehicle."
"Protesters ignite a tree outside the homes of police officers and their families in Wong Tai Sin, after throwing bricks at the lower floors of the building and breaking windows."
(A video further down showed suspected Molotov cocktail being thrown into police station)
6 August 2019: Petrol bombs, arson, vandalism, abusive language against families
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXS6kWW_4co
(The fight in the first part (up to 2:00) of this video clip is widely reported. However, the vandalism perpetuated by the protesters shown in the second half is never mentioned by any outlet except for SCMP.)
(A related issue: the police was again accused of collusion with the thugs based on the fight. http://www.ejinsight.com/20190806-protesters-fight-off-attackers-in-north-point-tsuen-wan/ I don't know how this squares with what is shown in the second part.)
"Dozens of protesters chased after them until they reached the building, smashing the windows of the office as they asked for the men to be handed over. A man inside a flat in the building took out a knife and shouted at the protesters outside."
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1472926-20190806.htm?spTabChangeable=0
"The black-clad protesters attacked the buildings with bricks, defaced them with graffiti, and in many cases started fires outside the gates."
"Video circulating online showed what appears to be petrol bombs being thrown into a police station, setting the hood of at least one police car on fire."
https://www.zaobao.com.sg/realtime/china/story20190806-978732
"黄大仙纪律部队员工宿舍的入口立起水马,大门两边的墙壁上被涂鸦,上面写着“黑社会之家”"
(Some images show slurs like: Accidents will happen to your wife and daughter. The pics were from readers, but this particular slur can be seen on a pic on SCMP)
https://thestandnews.com/politics/黃大仙連續三天警民衝突-紀律部隊宿舍遭圍攻2/
"有人用噴漆在宿舍外牆上寫上「黑社會」、警訓等字句,並以雞蛋、磚頭掟向宿舍外牆,有玻璃窗碎裂,有示威者用鐳射激光照射宿舍的窗口。警方則不時從宿舍內,朝睦鄰街上的示威者施放催淚彈。"
https://www.hk01.com/社會新聞/360810/逃犯條例-黃大仙紀律部隊宿舍住戶多次被圍-不明白為何被攻擊 "宿舍住戶趙小姐表示,自己現時很怕示威者,晚上睡不著:「禍不及家人,我不明白示威者為何要攻擊宿舍。」但她認為,大部分年輕人都是和平理性的"
https://hk.on.cc/hk/bkn/cnt/news/20190806/bkn-20190806081533899-0806_00822_001_cn.html (Video shows the abusive languages painted on the wall outside of police's homes. Might not be a very reliable source, but it is corroborated by other sources)
7 August 2019: a video showing the damages due to previous violence
https://www.hk01.com/社會新聞/361172/逃犯條例-警短片展示紀律部隊宿舍家破情況-住戶-雙方應冷靜
10 August 2019: abusive language against police officers
http://cn.rfi.fr/中国/20190810-示威者盂兰节超度亡魂到黄大仙警察宿舍外烧纸钱15人被捕
https://www.hk01.com/突發/362092/除惡盂蘭晚會-黃大仙警察宿舍外清場-警拘捕5人涉非法集結
(The protesters or sympathisers chanted "阿SIR,收嘢啦". If you know Cantonese, you understand that this is a very offensive slur. They were calling on the police to collect the burned paper money, which is effectively a death curse against the police.)
12 August 2019: violence against police homes
https://www.france24.com/en/20190812-theyre-being-used-hong-kong-protests-divide-neighbourhood
"Poppy Chan, the wife of a police officer, was preparing dinner for her family when she heard the crash of a brick shattering the window of her third-floor apartment."
13 August 2019: Violence against two mainland travellers and an officer
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/article/hk-airport-paralyzed-for-second-day-by-protest/
"At one point a police officer pulled his handgun on protesters after he was beaten by protesters who had taken away his baton."
"One of the men detained by protesters had his hands secured with cable ties as he was forced to sit on a baggage trolley. Later the mob repeatedly kicked him as lay on the ground."
"For the first time in more than two months of clashes, a policeman drew his service revolver and pointed it at violent protesters at Hong Kong International Airport on August 13, but did not open fire. He was outnumbered and under attack by a group of protesters, one of whom snatched his baton and beat him with it."
http://std.stheadline.com/instant/articles/detail/1067018/即時-香港-機場集會-疑似公安內地男遭圍困-防暴警施放胡椒噴霧拘兩人
"該名男子自稱送機,爭執間疑跌下一個載有證件及木棍的背包,示威者翻查其銀包證件,發現他有內地身份證和港澳通行證,有人再以其姓名搜尋,再發現名字在內地公安名單上,遂懷疑他是內地公安並包圍,示威者用索帶綁起其雙手,並高叫「唔好畀佢走」。
至晚上8時許,有救護員到埸但示威者不容許帶走,現在情況僵持。至晚上9時許,該名男子仍然被示威者包圍,受困逾2小時,即使救護員在場仍然無果,期間男子遭示威者拳打腳踢,褲子更被扯去,露出內褲。晚上約10時,該名男子暈倒,救護員將他送上擔架床,並帶上氧氣罩。"
19 August 2019: abuses against MTR employees
"Off-duty MTR station officer Kwok Chi-keung was stunned when he ran into three youngsters on the streets of Sheung Shui, who without warning unleashed a torrent of abuse at him. “You dead blue ribbon""
"it took him a while to remember that his personal information had been put on social media, exposing him to the possibility of verbal attacks"
"Tam Kin-chiu, vice-chairman of the pro-Beijing Hong Kong Federation of Railway Trade Unions, also said his personal information including his mobile phone number was posted online late last month. A rail driver, Tam said he had since received numerous anonymous phone calls, some after midnight, and was also called by a financial agent inquiring if he had applied for loans."
19 August 2019: petrol bombs
"An officer suffered second-degree burns when he was hit by a petrol bomb thrown into the Tsim Sha Tsui police station compound "
22 August 2019: doxxing and online abuse
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1476173-20190822.htm?share=facebook
"The police on Thursday warned people against sending online threats or posting personal data of others, as it revealed that the information of more than 1,600 officers has been unlawfully collected and leaked since June."
(The video shows an image on a seem-to-be facebook page, which says "all police who had ever used violence, your children will not live past 7 if they are younger than 7...")
24 August 2019: violence with petrol bombs
"Hong Kong police fired volleys of tear gas to break up anti-government protests in a gritty industrial suburb on Saturday after activists threw petrol bombs and bricks"
(See also the picture further down the page)
25 August 2019: Violence in general and against a bystander
"In a now familiar pattern, the protesters threw bricks, petrol bombs, corrosive liquid and other projectiles at the police, who responded with tear gas, pepper balls and sponge grenades"
(Starting from 5:19 of the first video, a group of black-shirts attacked an unarmed white-shirt after some verbal exchanges, and beat him to the ground)
26 August 2019: Violence against police. Vandalism
"A Hong Kong police officer fired one warning shot into the air as protesters chased and attacked him and several colleagues with metal pipes during chaotic scenes in Tsuen Wan"
(33 seconds into the video, a police officer fell to the ground. The protesters continued to beat him with sticks. Then a police officer fired a warning shot.)
"Protesters smashed glass doors and windows in two mahjong parlours while scolding staff inside. They also tried to prise open the roller gate of an arcade gaming centre.
Security cameras and outer walls were also vandalised. The protesters left the site after a few minutes." Ltyl ( talk) 21:29, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
These sources show a back and forth in terms of the application of violence by protesters and police. Sometimes the use of violence by protesters is defensive, and sometimes it is offensive. But it is always with purpose and is political. Therefore, I believe the appropriate term is thus Rebellion. From the Wikipidia page:
Rebellion is a refusal of obedience or order. It refers to the open resistance against the orders of an established authority. A rebellion originates from a sentiment of indignation and disapproval of a situation and then manifests itself by the refusal to submit or to obey the authority responsible for this situation. Rebellion can be individual or collective, peaceful (civil disobedience, civil resistance, and nonviolent resistance) or violent (terrorism, sabotage and guerrilla warfare.)
In political terms, rebellion and revolt are often distinguished by their different aims. If rebellion generally seeks to evade and/or gain concessions from an oppressive power, a revolt seeks to overthrow and destroy that power, as well as its accompanying laws. The goal of rebellion is resistance while a revolt seeks a revolution.[citation needed] As power shifts relative to the external adversary, or power shifts within a mixed coalition, or positions harden or soften on either side, an insurrection may seesaw between the two forms.
I would also like to note that the on-going anti-elab protests are included here on the List of revolutions and rebellions. So the tag on the infobox should not be listed as "Violence" but as "Rebellion" as it is a much more accurate and apt description of the overall situation, and inherently includes the application of violence in its very definition. 65.60.163.223 ( talk) 19:21, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
In light of the discussion here, I've removed the Methods row from the infobox. As far as I can tell, there is almost no way for us to effectively, accurately and neutrally summarize protester methods sufficiently to fit such a constrained format. Let's keep it in the body where we can provide necessary context. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I fail to see how a word in an infobox is superior to a line in the body. Simonm223 ( talk) 16:05, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I am putting together a page based on the sources listed in a previous section. Suggestions and information are welcome. Ltyl ( talk) 21:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Okay, there is a new section in the Tactics and methods article, here:
Feel free to contribute and add content! Thanks. 65.60.163.223 ( talk) 06:50, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I heard the debates about the possibly martial law enaction from the Global Times (as always, GT supports the martial law). I believe it is important but I don’t have time to find realiable sources to confirm it.
Mariogoods ( talk) 03:07, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I discover that people in our society does not look out value which we generat cris in between one nation to other nation and is not good, will as a good citizenship we should learn how to value Jomolado ( talk) 13:59, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
I understand the desire for brevity in summary style, and I do concede that some shortening and tightening is in order before this page forks yet another child. However summaries that exclude key, due, reliably sourced details such as mob violence toward police severe enough to lead to the firing of a warning shot have a serious impact on WP:NPOV. When summarizing, please try to keep these sorts of matters in mind. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:42, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Reuters being a wire service, it often jumps on stuff first, before any significance is established. Is the discussion of the troop rotation actually due here? China claims it's a routine action. And frankly, carrying on like nothing is happening seems to be a preferred tactic whenever possible in these sorts of disputes, so it may very well be. Simonm223 ( talk) 13:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
It's due, the article clearly says why and I've edited the material to reflect that. Your personal opinions about what Reuters does and what Beijing prefers isn't relevant. I am notifying @ BJohn1087: to this discussion as the user was the one who added this info. Flaughtin ( talk) 20:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
likely to hit a nerve. I still don't believe this incident is due mention at all. It's clearly routine, and has happened at the same time for several years, but if it has, in fact hit any nerves find a source for that. Not a wire service speculating it might. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Added another article by Reuters that also says the rotation is routine. Ltyl ( talk) 09:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
The infobox now lists 6 goals. Most news reports still say 5 demands? Ltyl ( talk) 21:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I found the user UsernamesAllTaken added the Category:Riots and civil disorder in China, Category:Riots and civil disorder in Hong Kong. Should we remove it or keep it? Mariogoods ( talk) 10:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Hello all. There is an ongoing discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criticism of the 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests. Inside the discussion are some ideas about the direction of the article & sub-articles. Some articles are way too detailed, which violates WP:NOTNEWS. We should consider condensing it, or maybe transferring some content to WikiNews. Cheers. – Wefk423 ( talk) 16:02, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
If I want to add information about online activities which is not from Chinese government or protesters, where can I add this? (I have found the report about hkleaks.org in SCMP, if my memory isn't wrong) Mariogoods ( talk) 13:33, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved, per WP:SNOW. In the interest of clarity please propose any other move requests separately. El_C 03:38, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests →
2019 Hong Kong crisis – Since this protest is currently the longest, why not rename this page?
69.157.127.100 (
talk)
03:04, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
How about this opinion piece specifically, when it is used to support the allegation of violence by the police?
https://www.thenation.com/article/hong-kong-protests-china-police-brutality-democracy/
As an opinion piece, it merely repackaged previous allegations and piled more allegations on top. It looks problematic. The Nation mostly publishes commentaries and opinions. As far as I know, not reliable as a news source. Ltyl ( talk) 20:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
https://www.amnesty.org.hk/en/verified-hong-kong-police-violence-against-peaceful-protesters/
Ltyl ( talk) 20:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
The Nation is listed on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources as generally reliable though partisan. El_C 22:34, 4 September 2019 (UTC)