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The article currently explicitly states that the suspect committed the crime in the lede. Since the suspect hasn't actually been convicted, it's extremely poor form and a BLP violation to prejudge the suspect in that way. Regardless of your personal opinions or the likelihood the suspect will be acquitted, it's wide consensus not to imply a living person has committed a crime until they've been convicted. I've added "allegedly" and other qualifiers to some parts of the article to reflect this.
Chess
(talk) (please use {{
ping|Chess}}
on reply)
21:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
{{
ping|Chess}}
on reply)
22:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)It says in the article that Alek Minassian had been raised Christian. I've read before that he identifies as an atheist, and in a police interview, he said his parents never raised him in any religion.-- Splashen ( talk) 02:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
{{
ping|Chess}}
on reply)
02:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Yes, here is one right here.-- Splashen ( talk) 06:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC) https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto-van-attack-police-interview
Nevertheless, I am inclined to accept the assessment of all of the experts that [Minassian] did lie to the police about much of the incel motivation he talked about and that the incel movement was not in fact a primary driving force behind the attack. I note as well that [Minassian]’s father commented that when his son was talking to Det. Thomas, he was using the tone of voice and demeanour that he would use when doing a presentation, as if he was acting a part. [...] he has never expressed hatred, or even anger, towards women, not even in his initial statement to the police [...] Accordingly, I agree with the assessors that [Minassian]’s story to the police about the attack being an “incel rebellion” was a lie. [...]I am sure that resentment towards women who were never interested him was a factor in this attack, but not the driving force. Instead, as he told every assessor, he piggybacked on the incel movement to ratchet up his own notoriety.
--Justice Anne Molloy, final sentencing of Minassian https://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2021ONSC1258.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:0:C2:59F3:F307:3420:F033 ( talk) 03:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion consensus. This was a close one, with valid policy referenced on all sides. That said, it appears CONSISTENCY was most persuasive to discussion participants, more so than NOYEAR. Lastly, multiple sources appear to describe this with the year included. Questions? Ping me on my talk, as always. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 23:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Toronto van attack →
2018 Toronto van attack – The current convention on article titles for events,
WP:NCEVENTS, demands that in the majority of cases
a date come before the article title. I see no good reason to make an exception here, especially given the fact that the article previously had the date in the title, until a unilateral move that did not respect the requested move process for controversial moves. Currently, this is one of the few articles from the
List of vehicle-ramming attacks that lack the date in the title; adding the date would make it
WP:CONSISTENT with the rest.
Pilaz (
talk) 13:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung,
mello
hi! (
投稿)
13:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it, but many sources refer to the event preceded with the year, which is a telltale sign that WP:NOYEAR shouldn't apply here: Reuters, the Canadian Encyclopedia, Toronto CityNews, GlobalNews.ca, this peer-reviewed paper, etc. Pilaz ( talk) 23:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Given that, as written in the article, Minassian is suspected to have lied about his "incel" motive, should the motives section of the infobox not be changed to reflect this? Or at least with a note that the motive is contested.
See this quote by Ontario Superior Court Justice Anne Molloy, from the legal proceedings section of the article: "I am inclined to accept the assessment of all of the experts that Mr. Doe did lie to the police about much of the incel motivation he talked about and that the incel movement was not in fact a primary driving force behind the attack." Macxcxz ( talk) 20:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2018 Toronto van attack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | A news item involving 2018 Toronto van attack was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 23 April 2018. | ![]() |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() | On 29 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Toronto van attack to 2018 Toronto van attack. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on April 23, 2023 and April 23, 2024. |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article currently explicitly states that the suspect committed the crime in the lede. Since the suspect hasn't actually been convicted, it's extremely poor form and a BLP violation to prejudge the suspect in that way. Regardless of your personal opinions or the likelihood the suspect will be acquitted, it's wide consensus not to imply a living person has committed a crime until they've been convicted. I've added "allegedly" and other qualifiers to some parts of the article to reflect this.
Chess
(talk) (please use {{
ping|Chess}}
on reply)
21:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
{{
ping|Chess}}
on reply)
22:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)It says in the article that Alek Minassian had been raised Christian. I've read before that he identifies as an atheist, and in a police interview, he said his parents never raised him in any religion.-- Splashen ( talk) 02:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
{{
ping|Chess}}
on reply)
02:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Yes, here is one right here.-- Splashen ( talk) 06:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC) https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto-van-attack-police-interview
Nevertheless, I am inclined to accept the assessment of all of the experts that [Minassian] did lie to the police about much of the incel motivation he talked about and that the incel movement was not in fact a primary driving force behind the attack. I note as well that [Minassian]’s father commented that when his son was talking to Det. Thomas, he was using the tone of voice and demeanour that he would use when doing a presentation, as if he was acting a part. [...] he has never expressed hatred, or even anger, towards women, not even in his initial statement to the police [...] Accordingly, I agree with the assessors that [Minassian]’s story to the police about the attack being an “incel rebellion” was a lie. [...]I am sure that resentment towards women who were never interested him was a factor in this attack, but not the driving force. Instead, as he told every assessor, he piggybacked on the incel movement to ratchet up his own notoriety.
--Justice Anne Molloy, final sentencing of Minassian https://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2021ONSC1258.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:0:C2:59F3:F307:3420:F033 ( talk) 03:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion consensus. This was a close one, with valid policy referenced on all sides. That said, it appears CONSISTENCY was most persuasive to discussion participants, more so than NOYEAR. Lastly, multiple sources appear to describe this with the year included. Questions? Ping me on my talk, as always. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 23:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Toronto van attack →
2018 Toronto van attack – The current convention on article titles for events,
WP:NCEVENTS, demands that in the majority of cases
a date come before the article title. I see no good reason to make an exception here, especially given the fact that the article previously had the date in the title, until a unilateral move that did not respect the requested move process for controversial moves. Currently, this is one of the few articles from the
List of vehicle-ramming attacks that lack the date in the title; adding the date would make it
WP:CONSISTENT with the rest.
Pilaz (
talk) 13:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung,
mello
hi! (
投稿)
13:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it, but many sources refer to the event preceded with the year, which is a telltale sign that WP:NOYEAR shouldn't apply here: Reuters, the Canadian Encyclopedia, Toronto CityNews, GlobalNews.ca, this peer-reviewed paper, etc. Pilaz ( talk) 23:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Given that, as written in the article, Minassian is suspected to have lied about his "incel" motive, should the motives section of the infobox not be changed to reflect this? Or at least with a note that the motive is contested.
See this quote by Ontario Superior Court Justice Anne Molloy, from the legal proceedings section of the article: "I am inclined to accept the assessment of all of the experts that Mr. Doe did lie to the police about much of the incel motivation he talked about and that the incel movement was not in fact a primary driving force behind the attack." Macxcxz ( talk) 20:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)