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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Why does this article have an image of Christmas decorations from 2014? I've removed it once, as not relevant, but it's been returned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:45, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I've removed {{coord|48|34|54|N|7|45|03|E|region:FR-67|display=inline,title}}
; the coordinates given resolve to a point inside the cathedral.
Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits
16:29, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Neudorf (Strasbourg) could do with being expanded from the French-language equivalent. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:55, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Now done; thank you, Rama. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Gianluigi02: What source were you referring to in this edit? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:25, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Hello, and thank you to the contributors of the articles.
Please keep in mind that this is a very hot topic where sensationalist coverage is both bound to occur and very harmful: in particular, for the number of victims, the highest number is not necessarily the most current, nor the most precise. Prefer official sources (the Préfecture du Bas-Rhin would be the local authority in charge, [1]) and beware of unserious sources (I see that we already have links to Fox News, I would see this as is dancing on the fine line between sensationalist reporting and politically-motivated infotainment with little regard for reality).
Good continuation. Rama ( talk) 05:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Maybe worth mentioning: as a woman in Switzerland had thought to have seen him aboard of a train between Basel and Zurich, the whole train was stopped and searched: as it turned out, in vain ( https://www.dna.fr/faits-divers/2018/12/13/une-voyageuse-croit-voir-cherif-c-un-train-immobilise). As long as that vicious killer is at large, there will be a lot of disruption in the area between Eastern France, Southwestern Germany and Northern Switzerland. -- Edelseider ( talk) 13:31, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Various editors have added links and templates suggesting an Islamist motivation for the incident; none of these have been cited, so I've removed them. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:44, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was "part of Islamic terrorism"? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:29, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of Islamic terrorism'?"is "no". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:40, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
References
né le 4 février 1989 à Strasbourg dans une famille d'origine algérienne
French police say the gunman is one of 12,000 'gangster-jihadists' who exist under the radar
I think it's worth having a translation of the German name of "Christmas Market". -- DeeM28 ( talk) 19:30, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Why were instances of {{lang|fr
changed to {{lang-fr
with |label=none
?
Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits
16:32, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
And now I have had to restore several language templates that were removed completely. That anyone would do this beggars belief. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:33, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
We have new, uncited figures for the number injured; and those in the lead/infobox do not match those in the body/ table. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I see a number of misconceptions that keep reoccurring in this article:
I am sure there are more. In any case, these traps can be easily avoided by rigourously quoting reputable sources. Rama ( talk) 07:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Rama: Since the above section is closed, i'll answer to your accusations toward me (unserious, unrigorous and unscientific). Let me see if i understand well.
That said, i confess that i should have said above "if ISIL's claim is true, then his motivations are quite clear", but sincerely, i find your above accusations toward me quite harsh, and your comment about "how i feel" irrelevant. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 08:39, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I said in the previous section on this matter: Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was "part of Islamic terrorism"? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:12, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I thought it was our practice not to recognise ISIL's claims, which often do not stand up to scrutiny? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:32, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Do we keep, remove, or amend the current claim, which says "Soon after his death, ISIL claimed him as one of their 'soldiers'."? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Is there an article for this incident in en.Wikinews and is there a way to cross-link the items between the projects? AadaamS ( talk) 07:54, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
The "Modèle 1892 revolver" claim is not in the cited source, but is in the archived version. Has the claim been retracted, or is the page for rolling news? Is a better source available? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The 2000 attack was planned by an Algerian group called "Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat". This group later (2003 if my memory serves me right) gave allegiance to Al Qaida. When English-speaking sources mention an "al-Qaeda-linked grouped", they are making a fuzzy reference to the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat. So please stop removing the exact name of the group. Rama ( talk) 18:31, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
PS: this also stands for the article about the SGPG and about the 2000 plot. Rama ( talk) 18:34, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
https://www.dna.fr/actualite/2018/12/16/le-pere-de-cherif-chekatt-temoigne-s-il-m-avait-parle-de-ce-projet-je-l-aurais-denonce
Interesting things to take away: He was opposed to his son's sympathy for ISIL and horrified by his crimes. Nevertheless Abdelkrim Chekatt fait l'objet d'une
fiche S en raison de son fondamentalisme religieux. --
Edelseider (
talk)
09:00, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
From what French authorities said, the perpetrator was not known as a terrorist threat. He had a "Fiche S", which amounts to being on an arbitrary shitlist of the security services; furthermore he was on a list of suspected radical islamists — in his case, for annoying fellow inmates with his constant God-bothering. This is absolutely not the same thing as contemplating a terrorist attack.
The man was known as a violent, prolific petty criminal. At the moment we have no indication that the security services saw him as a potential terrorist; given that several sources have explicitly stated that it was not the case (see [12] for instance), I do not expect this to change. Therefore, nowhere should we say or suggest that the security services saw him as a potential terrorist.
That he had drifted into a form of radical islamism seems to be correct, as is his listing on a watchlist of the security services specifically aimed at such evolutions. Nevertheless, putting this detail in the lead of the article insinuates that it is a core fact in the affair, something for which we have at present no clue. Note that we do not say that the man had an unhealthy interest in fireams, for instance, although that seems equally true and certainly relevant to his last actions. Therefore, the islamist opinions of the perpetrator may be mentionned in the body of the article, but they have no place in the lead. Rama ( talk) 13:39, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Why remove Islamic extremism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alivebills ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was "part of Islamic terrorism"? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed."- which, no such source having being provided, they duly were. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
"Do not re-add {{ Islamic terrorism in Europe}} without a citation; see talk page". Did you add such a citation? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Fine. :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alivebills ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Curious as to what other editors think. For me, clearly and obviously radical Islam at play (as per police reports, national security reports and the perpetrator's owns words) but my politics are centrist, so we must take into account what those editors of the left think also - for example when he screamed Allahu Akbar while shooting civilians - perhaps may just have seen a muslim friend mid shooting and wished to inform that friend that 'God is great.' For me however - clearly extreme Islam. So do you support or oppose 'Radical Islam' as the motivation in the navbox - please also provide refs, lets see what we are dealing with here.
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of Islamic terrorism'? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed."No such source has been provided; and so they were. Your opinion as to what it is, is immaterial. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
I am a leftist apologist myself, but even I cant hide what this man's motivations were anymore.. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenostar ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of Islamic terrorism'? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed."No such source has been provided; and so they were. Your opinion as to what it is, is immaterial. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:41, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
References
@ Sandstein: You uploaded a non-free image of the living person, File:Chérif Chekatt.png. I don't know why the image is necessary. It doesn't increase readers' understanding of the event itself; the article is not primarily about the suspect. George Ho ( talk) 19:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Somehow, it's removed/orphaned; if anyone objects, please feel free to revert. George Ho ( talk) 03:01, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
And the image is deleted as "replaceable"; the deleting admin Explicit must be contacted first if anyone wants the image un-deleted. George Ho ( talk) 00:48, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
"Did any contributor reach out to people who possibly could be in possession of such a picture (family, friends, witnesses, etc)? ". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Maybe we should mention that the Islamic State claimed responsibility of the attack through its Amaq news website, but also adding that it didn't give any evidence. [1]
In addition, it seems that the attacker was supporting IS, but we have to wait until the investigation is over in order to be sure. [2] Gre regiment ( talk) 18:32, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Why does this article have an image of Christmas decorations from 2014? I've removed it once, as not relevant, but it's been returned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:45, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I've removed {{coord|48|34|54|N|7|45|03|E|region:FR-67|display=inline,title}}
; the coordinates given resolve to a point inside the cathedral.
Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits
16:29, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Neudorf (Strasbourg) could do with being expanded from the French-language equivalent. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:55, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Now done; thank you, Rama. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Gianluigi02: What source were you referring to in this edit? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:25, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Hello, and thank you to the contributors of the articles.
Please keep in mind that this is a very hot topic where sensationalist coverage is both bound to occur and very harmful: in particular, for the number of victims, the highest number is not necessarily the most current, nor the most precise. Prefer official sources (the Préfecture du Bas-Rhin would be the local authority in charge, [1]) and beware of unserious sources (I see that we already have links to Fox News, I would see this as is dancing on the fine line between sensationalist reporting and politically-motivated infotainment with little regard for reality).
Good continuation. Rama ( talk) 05:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Maybe worth mentioning: as a woman in Switzerland had thought to have seen him aboard of a train between Basel and Zurich, the whole train was stopped and searched: as it turned out, in vain ( https://www.dna.fr/faits-divers/2018/12/13/une-voyageuse-croit-voir-cherif-c-un-train-immobilise). As long as that vicious killer is at large, there will be a lot of disruption in the area between Eastern France, Southwestern Germany and Northern Switzerland. -- Edelseider ( talk) 13:31, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Various editors have added links and templates suggesting an Islamist motivation for the incident; none of these have been cited, so I've removed them. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:44, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was "part of Islamic terrorism"? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:29, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of Islamic terrorism'?"is "no". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:40, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
References
né le 4 février 1989 à Strasbourg dans une famille d'origine algérienne
French police say the gunman is one of 12,000 'gangster-jihadists' who exist under the radar
I think it's worth having a translation of the German name of "Christmas Market". -- DeeM28 ( talk) 19:30, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Why were instances of {{lang|fr
changed to {{lang-fr
with |label=none
?
Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits
16:32, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
And now I have had to restore several language templates that were removed completely. That anyone would do this beggars belief. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:33, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
We have new, uncited figures for the number injured; and those in the lead/infobox do not match those in the body/ table. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I see a number of misconceptions that keep reoccurring in this article:
I am sure there are more. In any case, these traps can be easily avoided by rigourously quoting reputable sources. Rama ( talk) 07:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Rama: Since the above section is closed, i'll answer to your accusations toward me (unserious, unrigorous and unscientific). Let me see if i understand well.
That said, i confess that i should have said above "if ISIL's claim is true, then his motivations are quite clear", but sincerely, i find your above accusations toward me quite harsh, and your comment about "how i feel" irrelevant. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 08:39, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I said in the previous section on this matter: Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was "part of Islamic terrorism"? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:12, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
I thought it was our practice not to recognise ISIL's claims, which often do not stand up to scrutiny? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:32, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Do we keep, remove, or amend the current claim, which says "Soon after his death, ISIL claimed him as one of their 'soldiers'."? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Is there an article for this incident in en.Wikinews and is there a way to cross-link the items between the projects? AadaamS ( talk) 07:54, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
The "Modèle 1892 revolver" claim is not in the cited source, but is in the archived version. Has the claim been retracted, or is the page for rolling news? Is a better source available? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The 2000 attack was planned by an Algerian group called "Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat". This group later (2003 if my memory serves me right) gave allegiance to Al Qaida. When English-speaking sources mention an "al-Qaeda-linked grouped", they are making a fuzzy reference to the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat. So please stop removing the exact name of the group. Rama ( talk) 18:31, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
PS: this also stands for the article about the SGPG and about the 2000 plot. Rama ( talk) 18:34, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
https://www.dna.fr/actualite/2018/12/16/le-pere-de-cherif-chekatt-temoigne-s-il-m-avait-parle-de-ce-projet-je-l-aurais-denonce
Interesting things to take away: He was opposed to his son's sympathy for ISIL and horrified by his crimes. Nevertheless Abdelkrim Chekatt fait l'objet d'une
fiche S en raison de son fondamentalisme religieux. --
Edelseider (
talk)
09:00, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
From what French authorities said, the perpetrator was not known as a terrorist threat. He had a "Fiche S", which amounts to being on an arbitrary shitlist of the security services; furthermore he was on a list of suspected radical islamists — in his case, for annoying fellow inmates with his constant God-bothering. This is absolutely not the same thing as contemplating a terrorist attack.
The man was known as a violent, prolific petty criminal. At the moment we have no indication that the security services saw him as a potential terrorist; given that several sources have explicitly stated that it was not the case (see [12] for instance), I do not expect this to change. Therefore, nowhere should we say or suggest that the security services saw him as a potential terrorist.
That he had drifted into a form of radical islamism seems to be correct, as is his listing on a watchlist of the security services specifically aimed at such evolutions. Nevertheless, putting this detail in the lead of the article insinuates that it is a core fact in the affair, something for which we have at present no clue. Note that we do not say that the man had an unhealthy interest in fireams, for instance, although that seems equally true and certainly relevant to his last actions. Therefore, the islamist opinions of the perpetrator may be mentionned in the body of the article, but they have no place in the lead. Rama ( talk) 13:39, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Why remove Islamic extremism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alivebills ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was "part of Islamic terrorism"? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed."- which, no such source having being provided, they duly were. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
"Do not re-add {{ Islamic terrorism in Europe}} without a citation; see talk page". Did you add such a citation? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Fine. :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alivebills ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Curious as to what other editors think. For me, clearly and obviously radical Islam at play (as per police reports, national security reports and the perpetrator's owns words) but my politics are centrist, so we must take into account what those editors of the left think also - for example when he screamed Allahu Akbar while shooting civilians - perhaps may just have seen a muslim friend mid shooting and wished to inform that friend that 'God is great.' For me however - clearly extreme Islam. So do you support or oppose 'Radical Islam' as the motivation in the navbox - please also provide refs, lets see what we are dealing with here.
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of Islamic terrorism'? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed."No such source has been provided; and so they were. Your opinion as to what it is, is immaterial. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
I am a leftist apologist myself, but even I cant hide what this man's motivations were anymore.. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenostar ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
"Does anyone have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of Islamic terrorism'? If so, it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, the templates and categories making the claim should be removed/ changed."No such source has been provided; and so they were. Your opinion as to what it is, is immaterial. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:41, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
References
@ Sandstein: You uploaded a non-free image of the living person, File:Chérif Chekatt.png. I don't know why the image is necessary. It doesn't increase readers' understanding of the event itself; the article is not primarily about the suspect. George Ho ( talk) 19:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Somehow, it's removed/orphaned; if anyone objects, please feel free to revert. George Ho ( talk) 03:01, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
And the image is deleted as "replaceable"; the deleting admin Explicit must be contacted first if anyone wants the image un-deleted. George Ho ( talk) 00:48, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
"Did any contributor reach out to people who possibly could be in possession of such a picture (family, friends, witnesses, etc)? ". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Maybe we should mention that the Islamic State claimed responsibility of the attack through its Amaq news website, but also adding that it didn't give any evidence. [1]
In addition, it seems that the attacker was supporting IS, but we have to wait until the investigation is over in order to be sure. [2] Gre regiment ( talk) 18:32, 22 December 2018 (UTC)