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The line "Three Arab Israelis opened fire on Israeli police officers near the Lions' Gate, one of the Gates of Jerusalem." doesn't read right as it implies that Israelis are attacking Israelis. This isn't a false thing to say but the wording could be improved. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 13:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Greyshark, this is 100% part of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, as many Arabs living in Israel view themselves as living under the Israeli occupation and identify with the Palestinians. Israeli Arabs can not serve in the army because they cannot be trusted while Druze have to serve in the army since they are loyal citizens. There is even a Druze fighter pilot. Like I mentioned below. Incitement by Arab knesset members, by Abu Mazen and the UNESCO resolutions, have made the radicalized Arabs even more violent, because now they feel like they are closer to achieving their goal and defeating the Jews. There is talk about revoking their citizenship but the supreme court stands in the way. Anyway...what is important to note is that they shot from inside the Al aqsa complex toward the guards. The opening paragraph could be something like this " On 14 July, 2017, Three Israeli Arabs from Umm al-Fahm opened fire from within the Al-Aqsa mosque complex outward, on the Border Police officers stationed at the entrance, near the Lion’s Gate.( Someone on the Palestinian side may have aided the assailants to smuggle the weapons in.) As a result of the attack, two Israeli border police officers were killed and two more were injured. All three attackers were shot and killed by Israeli police after fleeing back to the Temple Mount complex." haaretz-- Jane955 ( talk) 04:38, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
The Israeli police uploaded a video which includes the first seconds of the attack. Can someone please download the video to his computer and then upload it to wikimedia commons? It is free for usage. ThePagesWriter ( talk) 15:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
These are important details about the policemen: The slain officers are Hail Stawi, 30, from Maghar and Kamil Shanan, 22, from Hurfeish both in northern Israel. Officer Shanan was the son of former Israeli Druse Knesset member Shakib Shanan. He was recruited into the Israel Police’s Temple Mount unit in 2012. Officer Stawi leaves behind a newborn baby.
Why was this deleted?
Following the attack, Likud Knesset member Yariv Gideon Levin was interviewed on Israeli TV and said that the reason for the attack was Abu Mazen’s incitement and incitement by Arab Knesset members.(The interview was aired on 15 July 2017) Abu Mazen (Mahmud Abbas) has previously said: “We won't allow Jews' filthy feet.(on the Temple Mount) We bless every drop of blood that has been spilled for Jerusalem...blood spilled for Allah...Every Martyr will reach Paradise and everyone wounded will be rewarded by Allah."
Ignoring the recent UNESCO resolutions that deny Israel’s historical connection to the Temple Mount (and other historical sites) is naïve. You can rephrase what I wrote, but I can’t understand why the entire paragraph was deleted. I speak fluent Hebrew, by the way.-- Jane955 ( talk) 22:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
What is RS or "chock full of POV pushing"? Is there a page that explains these terms? I don't think there will be an investigation into the motives. This is already known. But the army will see if the terrorists' friends or relatives are also involved. There is on going incitement by Abu Mazen. This is well known. What surprised me is that Lavin said that members of the Arab party (in the Knesset) also incite Israeli Arabs. The attacks have become more brazen since UNESCO passed the anti-Israel resolutions. I would at least mention these resolutions and let people reach the conclusion on their own.-- Jane955 ( talk) 03:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
ICE, ok, well then you can add this to the article. I translated the relevant part. (I left out the name of the Arab leader he mentioned because I didn’t know how to spell this name.) If there is a technology that enables me to turn this recorded television program into a video, I will happily do it and add the translation.
Interview with defence minister Avigdor Lieberman, “Meet the press”, Israeli TV, Channel 2, 15/7/2017
Avigdor Lieberman; “We have no intention of changing the status quo on the Temple Mount, but we will continue the investigation to make sure that everyone can pray in safety. What causes the tension and violence is wild incitement. I heard today the leader of the northern faction; his views are no different from Daash or Al-Qaida. We have to examine if he did not break ‘the terror law’. According to him these murderers are holy and of course 'the occupation' is the reason. In the Arab world in the last 7 years 700,000 people were killed in the wars of Muslims against Muslims; in Syria, Yemen, Libya & Iraq. They don’t care and ignore this mainly because the real reason (problem) is radical Islam and not 'the occupation’. What is going on has nothing to do with 'the occupation'; it has nothing to do with Israel. It is an international phenomenon.”-- Jane955 ( talk) 23:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
ICE, how is this? and where in the article can I put it? Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman commented on the terror attack: "The State of Israel will continue to fight resolutely, forcefully and uncompromisingly against the terrorists, their dispatchers, and those who incite them. I applaud our security forces in their courageous daily struggle against terrorism, and mourn the death of the officers who fell in the attack."
The Hebrew wikipedia page with the same name looks similar to this page, but some details are missing here. Are there editors working on both pages? What do you think about this article? Fatah calls for ‘Day of Rage’ amid new Temple Mount security in wake of attack-- Jane955 ( talk) 16:29, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
UNESCO
There is a new article that explains what I wrote about UNESCO. ISRAEL: UNESCO IS A FULL PARTNER IN PALESTINIAN INCITEMENT: "UNESCO is a full partner to the false incitement by Palestinians and radical Islam who claim that Al-Aksa [Temple Mount mosque] is in danger,” Israel’s ambassador to UNESCO in Paris Carmel Shama HaCohen said on Thursday. To help remedy the situation his office has called on UNESCO’s Director-General Irina Bokova to condemn any attempts to use the Temple Mount as a location from which to launch terror attacks.-- Jane955 ( talk) 18:08, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:Terrorist, I ask that another editor revert the edits by the IP user, as I forgot about 1RR and cannot do so. - SantiLak ( talk) 11:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
I need help numbering the citations. -- Jane955 ( talk) 14:13, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
User:Icewhiz. Your removal of +972 magazine on the pretext it is a partisan blog runs in the face of several requests regarding it at RSN. Check before doing things like that. It is a news website run by a cooperative of Israeli journalists with excellent mainstream cvs. Nishidani ( talk) 07:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
And this and this. Attribution would be only needed if the fact were not reported in other sources.
Suggest that we move the background and aftermath sections to 2017 Temple Mount crisis, leaving hits as a page on teh shooting.@ ThePagesWriter:. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 19:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
The part about the incident in Jordan can be moved to the new page. In the first page we can write more about the victims...that one had a young child. By the way...all of this was to be expected following the UNESCO decisions and intensive incitement. I think it's worth mentioning that. There are many articles on the subject. -- Jane955 ( talk) 03:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved as per the consensus, and WP:COMMONNAME. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:32, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
2017 Temple Mount shooting →
2017 Lions' Gate attack? – The present title is anomalous. It is the only article of this type which designates the immediate point of departure of the killers (the
Haram al Sharif/
Temple Mount) as more significant than the actual place site where the attack took place. Secondly, the Temple Mount is one of 2 terms for the departure site.
WP:NPOV would impose in the I/P area that references to the site contain both names. Placing the Jewish/Western name for the site of origin of Arab attackers is self-evidently POV, implying ‘they’ prepared an attack from one of ‘our’ holy sites. Neutral third party advice would be welcome, since I/P editors’ positions are well-known, and mostly predictable. As it stands, ironically, the article should be dealing with the place where the killers were shot, the Haram al-Sharif, the 'Temple mount shooting' can refer to no other fact of that day, and certainly not to the killing of the two Druze policeman some distance from that area.
Nishidani (
talk) 16:05, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Temple Mount is not a Western name. It is definatly a Jewish holy site, as it is a Muslim holy site. The attackers shot from within the compound; that is why metal detectors were placed. I rephrased my reason for opposing. -- Jane955 ( talk) 12:48, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
I'll give more evidence. I am still waiting for external neutral input. All of the negatives above are predictable, save for In ictu oculi, who has, however, accepted an argument that I believe does not stand up to scrutiny.
This article was created within an hour of the attack, so the title chosen does not reflect the principles of WP:COMMONNAME, according to User:Icewhiz's assertion, accepted by many. You can shoot holes in this very easily, see below. It was chosen before one could assess how widespread news coverage would title and describe the incident. This is the first error. (b)If you look at mainstream newspaper reports outside Israel, this is how the attack was reported that day.
Two Israeli police officers have been shot dead and three gunmen killed during an early-morning shootout in one of Jerusalem’s most holy and sensitive sites. The attack – involving three Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin – took place just after 7am in the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif complex in Jerusalem. It began near the Lions’ Gate entrance to the compound, which is revered as a holy site by both Muslims and Jews.
The rare gunfight took place inside a sacred hilltop compound in Jerusalem, known to Jews as Temple Mount and to Muslims as Noble Sanctuary or al-Haram al-Sharif
Three Palestinian attackers have opened fire on Israeli police from inside a major Jerusalem holy site, killing two officers before being shot dead, officials said.
Comment. As the recent book by the Australian's senior Middle east correspondent argues this newspaper is very strongly Pro-Israel. The title choice reflects this. But the the body of the text reads:
Three assailants opened fire on Israeli police in Jerusalem’s Old City today before fleeing to a nearby highly sensitive holy site and being killed by security forces, police said. Three people were wounded in the attack, two of them critically, police said. The incident was among the most serious in recent years in Jerusalem and was likely to heighten Israeli-Palestinian tensions. No details were immediately available on the identity of the attackers. The three were killed at the site known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount, the location of regular clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police, but gunfire rarely occurs there.
The assailants then fled into the compound toward one of world's holiest sites, known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif and known to Jews as the Temple Mount
·The three assailants were killed at the site known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount
They were shot by three Israeli Arabs close to the compound known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif With neutral title (Israeli police killed in attack near Jerusalem holy site
Security camera footage showed the armed assailants emerging to attack from within the sacred compound in the Old City of Jerusalem that Jews revere as the Temple Mount and Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary.
‘Police said the assault began just after 7 a.m. close to the Lion’s Gate into the Old City, near one of the entrances to the complex that holds al-Aqsa Mosque and the golden Dome of the Rock, an ancient esplanade revered by Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary and by Jews as the Temple Mount.’
The attack from the Temple Mount, or in Arabic al-Haram al-Sharif
The Trump administration is "very concerned" at the sight of growing tensions on the Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, where security has been tightened since a terrorist attack last week.
'The United States is very concerned about tensions surrounding the Temple Mount/Haram Al-Sharif, a site holy to Jews, Muslims, and Christians.'
Every oppose vote save one so far is predictable. I hope that is not mirrored by editors identified with the other POV, who fortunately have abstained so far. Now could neutral, unpredictable third parties weigh in? Nishidani ( talk) 16:27, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Here's a bunch of newspaper headlines for the attack: "Two Israeli police and three gunmen killed in shootout at holy site", "2 Israeli police officers killed in shooting in Jerusalem's Old City", "2 Israeli Police Officers Killed in Attack in Old City of Jerusalem", "Shooting at Jerusalem holy site: 3 attackers killed, no Friday prayers", "Jerusalem holy site shuttered after deadly Temple Mount attack", "Jerusalem: Israeli policemen killed in shooting attack", "Palestinians shot dead after Jerusalem Old City attacks", "Jerusalem shooting: Attack in Old City leaves two Israeli police dead, one injured", "2 Israeli police officers fatally shot in Jerusalem's Old City", "Two Israeli Cops Killed in Shooting Near Jerusalem Holy Site, 3 Gunmen Dead: Police" And so on. I find one headline containing the name "Temple Mount" but a virtually endless amount of headlines that doesn't. I don't know if it favors or disfavors either sides POV to include/exclude "Temple Mount" from the article title. But it just seem completely wrong to me. ImTheIP ( talk) 20:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The photo is published by Israeli police on their facebook, but this does not mean it does not promote sexist stereotypes. No matter how you try to whitewash it, the focus of the photo is of a female soldier's behind? There are many other photos available on the facebook, so why was this one chosen? I have seen many photos of female military, just Google "female marines" for examples. Just because the police oublished it does not mean it is not a sexist stereotype, is the claim here that sexism does not exist in the IDF or Israeli police? This is false, and Wikipedia should not support it. I see many photos of this of Israeli female soldiers and YES it is promoting sexist stereotypes. You will see if you compare to other military services like the US the care that is taken with showing females as soldiers on the same level as everyone else, not as "morale boosts" (which I have heard IDF officials call then before) - Wikipedia should not participate or promote the objectification of fenale soldiers - this is an encyclopedia, not a locker room calender. Seraphim System ( talk) 03:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Female Israeli soldiers are objectified to such an extent that they have become a sort of a fetish for Internet deviants...
Results: This data shows that participants experienced their army tenure as gendered and sexualized beings, and felt this could not be separated from the rest of their identities. Rather, they described this sexualization as the main, and sometimes only, category by which they were identified. For these women, the Israeli army engendered a space in which both men and women were encouraged to act out gendered stereotypes: men were rewarded for being strong aggressors, and women were rewarded for being nurturing and pretty. This created two, very different, sets of hierarchies, and two separate currencies. Implications: Results indicate that women experience differential treatment and devaluation compared to men in the Israeli army. Women are viewed primarily as feminized or sexual objects, and thus objectified and marginalized. While men are primarily valued for their abilities as soldiers and warriors, women are more likely to be evaluated by their sexual attractiveness to men or date-ability.
I do not see anything sexist in the photograph and see no reason to change it. The rest of the stuff is off-topic and noise, as far as I am concerned. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:58, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
References
In Israel, where veils are not worn by the mainstream, and women are treated equally, there is nothing sexist in such a shot.and I posted several WP:RS to the effect that veiling is irrelevant, and that the culture of assault and objectification of women in the IDF (and also the police force) is well-documented. It is relevant to the discussion of the photo, not to the article topic. The photo is what is being discussed here, and the context of the article it is being used in doesn't change that. We have at least three photos. I have looked through a lot of army/police photos and I have noticed that male police officers and soldiers are frequently depicted differently from women (i.e. the masked police officer is a common theme) and that photos of women are often sexualized (whether back or front, they are shown as "pretty" and "objects of male pleasure" - this is the "male gaze" imagery) Female officers are shown in a way that is pleasing to men. The focus of this photo is the woman. It is not just a coincidental "group shot" of police officers walking away. Contrast with the other image in the album of men walking up the stairs, it is photographed from the front and shows him leading the group. I could find countless other examples of this "motif" but I am not sure they can be posted here for copyright reasons. Seraphim System ( talk) 10:18, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I know WP:WAW is an essay, that is why I introduced it as an essay in the comment that you are theoretically responding to. In fact I italicized essay so no one would mistake it for a policy. But as far as I know it is a respected and widely-used essay. I've seen it used across a wide range of articles in different topic areas, so I was hoping it would be respected here as well. There are other photos available so there is no need to use this one. If you read the essay, which I recommend, it suggests avoiding male gaze imagery unless it is on topic for the article (which you have already conceded it is not.) We don't lose anything by replacing it with a similar image from the same source, so I am also having a difficult time understanding the rationale to keep this particular image. Seraphim System ( talk) 01:14, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Good catch by Seraphim System :-). I'm not sure about "sexist stereotypes" but the image does not add much to the article and can be removed on these grounds. They look like tourists walking around -- a fairly nondescript group of people carrying backpacks and shot from behind; I would not have guessed that they were police personnel. If there are other images available, why not replace this one? I can see how it can be objectifying, or at least distracting. It's definitely distracting from the purpose of improving the article by causing this lengthy discussion. Remove the image -- and problem solved! K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
I find this amateur cultural criticism rather tiresome and pointless. I have a suggestion: just open an RfC with two (or three options), perhaps the current photo, or another one from the same Facebook page (one can also have an option for no photo). There will at least be an objective to the discussion, rather than forum-style discussion which doesn't go anywhere. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:42, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with the photo's usage. There is no licencing problem, and it is on-topic: it shows the location of the event covered and it shows some of those involved in the event (but without the problem of showing faces and personalizing things). But I'd like to see a specific date and time given to the photo. I don't see a sense of any immediate "responding" there, it is more like the winding-down aftermath of a response (but that is a title problem, not an off-topic photograph problem). What is depicted is a large group of armed and uniformed on-duty police walking through a place they are never usually seen walking through, and doing it as part of of the specific event that this article covers. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 15:21, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
While discussion about the title of the article goes on, I have replaced "Temple Mount" phrase in the first sentence of the lead with "Temple Mount (also known as Haram al-Sharif)". The reasons are many. A few:
Feel free to discuss etc. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:29, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Incidentally, if you want to ask other people to weigh in, the proper way is to either post on a noticeboard or open an RfC, not ping people who happened to agree with you on a related RfC. You have been editing for many years; surely I don't need to tell you these basic things? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:06, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Since I am rather pissed off by the nonsense displayed here, I'll make the effort to do a review of the news media as to what the "common name" is, as shown in the lead or beginning of the articles covering this incident. I am only looking at international media:
The attack – involving three Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin – took place just after 7am in the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif complex in Jerusalem.
Palestinian gunmen ambushed and killed two Israeli police officers at the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem on Friday, bringing bloodshed and chaos to a religious site that is sacred to both Jews and Muslims. According to Israeli police, the three attackers smuggled weapons into the mosque complex - which is known to Jews as the Temple Mount - and then burst out and opened fire on the officers early on Friday morning.
The attack took place a little after 7 a.m. local time by the Lions' Gate in the Old City walls, next to what Muslims call the Noble Sanctuary and Jews the Temple Mount.
Israeli media reports said the attackers opened fire near the place known to Jews as Temple Mount — the most holy site in Judaism — which is also the site of the Al Aqsa mosque..
(Incidentally my favourite newspaper in the world ( Financial Times) and my favorite magazine in the world ( The Economist), both use both names. They actually say the Al-Aqsa mosque compound. But anyway.)
I fully expect all of this to have zero effect on people who will continue to insist that black is white. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:09, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I question this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2017_Temple_Mount_shooting&diff=802753067&oldid=797021481 On the following grounds a) the persons were indicted today and the story is developing, b) while the names and photos of the accused have already spread in Israeli media, that is no reason for Wikipedia to pile on c) there is no reason not to let the legal process run its course, and if they are found guilty, or at least have stood trial, then include that information. Doesn't Wikipedia have policies for when arrests and indictments are reasonable to include, given the potential for harm such inclusion has? ImTheIP ( talk) 20:40, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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The line "Three Arab Israelis opened fire on Israeli police officers near the Lions' Gate, one of the Gates of Jerusalem." doesn't read right as it implies that Israelis are attacking Israelis. This isn't a false thing to say but the wording could be improved. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 13:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Greyshark, this is 100% part of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, as many Arabs living in Israel view themselves as living under the Israeli occupation and identify with the Palestinians. Israeli Arabs can not serve in the army because they cannot be trusted while Druze have to serve in the army since they are loyal citizens. There is even a Druze fighter pilot. Like I mentioned below. Incitement by Arab knesset members, by Abu Mazen and the UNESCO resolutions, have made the radicalized Arabs even more violent, because now they feel like they are closer to achieving their goal and defeating the Jews. There is talk about revoking their citizenship but the supreme court stands in the way. Anyway...what is important to note is that they shot from inside the Al aqsa complex toward the guards. The opening paragraph could be something like this " On 14 July, 2017, Three Israeli Arabs from Umm al-Fahm opened fire from within the Al-Aqsa mosque complex outward, on the Border Police officers stationed at the entrance, near the Lion’s Gate.( Someone on the Palestinian side may have aided the assailants to smuggle the weapons in.) As a result of the attack, two Israeli border police officers were killed and two more were injured. All three attackers were shot and killed by Israeli police after fleeing back to the Temple Mount complex." haaretz-- Jane955 ( talk) 04:38, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
The Israeli police uploaded a video which includes the first seconds of the attack. Can someone please download the video to his computer and then upload it to wikimedia commons? It is free for usage. ThePagesWriter ( talk) 15:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
These are important details about the policemen: The slain officers are Hail Stawi, 30, from Maghar and Kamil Shanan, 22, from Hurfeish both in northern Israel. Officer Shanan was the son of former Israeli Druse Knesset member Shakib Shanan. He was recruited into the Israel Police’s Temple Mount unit in 2012. Officer Stawi leaves behind a newborn baby.
Why was this deleted?
Following the attack, Likud Knesset member Yariv Gideon Levin was interviewed on Israeli TV and said that the reason for the attack was Abu Mazen’s incitement and incitement by Arab Knesset members.(The interview was aired on 15 July 2017) Abu Mazen (Mahmud Abbas) has previously said: “We won't allow Jews' filthy feet.(on the Temple Mount) We bless every drop of blood that has been spilled for Jerusalem...blood spilled for Allah...Every Martyr will reach Paradise and everyone wounded will be rewarded by Allah."
Ignoring the recent UNESCO resolutions that deny Israel’s historical connection to the Temple Mount (and other historical sites) is naïve. You can rephrase what I wrote, but I can’t understand why the entire paragraph was deleted. I speak fluent Hebrew, by the way.-- Jane955 ( talk) 22:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
What is RS or "chock full of POV pushing"? Is there a page that explains these terms? I don't think there will be an investigation into the motives. This is already known. But the army will see if the terrorists' friends or relatives are also involved. There is on going incitement by Abu Mazen. This is well known. What surprised me is that Lavin said that members of the Arab party (in the Knesset) also incite Israeli Arabs. The attacks have become more brazen since UNESCO passed the anti-Israel resolutions. I would at least mention these resolutions and let people reach the conclusion on their own.-- Jane955 ( talk) 03:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
ICE, ok, well then you can add this to the article. I translated the relevant part. (I left out the name of the Arab leader he mentioned because I didn’t know how to spell this name.) If there is a technology that enables me to turn this recorded television program into a video, I will happily do it and add the translation.
Interview with defence minister Avigdor Lieberman, “Meet the press”, Israeli TV, Channel 2, 15/7/2017
Avigdor Lieberman; “We have no intention of changing the status quo on the Temple Mount, but we will continue the investigation to make sure that everyone can pray in safety. What causes the tension and violence is wild incitement. I heard today the leader of the northern faction; his views are no different from Daash or Al-Qaida. We have to examine if he did not break ‘the terror law’. According to him these murderers are holy and of course 'the occupation' is the reason. In the Arab world in the last 7 years 700,000 people were killed in the wars of Muslims against Muslims; in Syria, Yemen, Libya & Iraq. They don’t care and ignore this mainly because the real reason (problem) is radical Islam and not 'the occupation’. What is going on has nothing to do with 'the occupation'; it has nothing to do with Israel. It is an international phenomenon.”-- Jane955 ( talk) 23:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
ICE, how is this? and where in the article can I put it? Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman commented on the terror attack: "The State of Israel will continue to fight resolutely, forcefully and uncompromisingly against the terrorists, their dispatchers, and those who incite them. I applaud our security forces in their courageous daily struggle against terrorism, and mourn the death of the officers who fell in the attack."
The Hebrew wikipedia page with the same name looks similar to this page, but some details are missing here. Are there editors working on both pages? What do you think about this article? Fatah calls for ‘Day of Rage’ amid new Temple Mount security in wake of attack-- Jane955 ( talk) 16:29, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
UNESCO
There is a new article that explains what I wrote about UNESCO. ISRAEL: UNESCO IS A FULL PARTNER IN PALESTINIAN INCITEMENT: "UNESCO is a full partner to the false incitement by Palestinians and radical Islam who claim that Al-Aksa [Temple Mount mosque] is in danger,” Israel’s ambassador to UNESCO in Paris Carmel Shama HaCohen said on Thursday. To help remedy the situation his office has called on UNESCO’s Director-General Irina Bokova to condemn any attempts to use the Temple Mount as a location from which to launch terror attacks.-- Jane955 ( talk) 18:08, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:Terrorist, I ask that another editor revert the edits by the IP user, as I forgot about 1RR and cannot do so. - SantiLak ( talk) 11:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
I need help numbering the citations. -- Jane955 ( talk) 14:13, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
User:Icewhiz. Your removal of +972 magazine on the pretext it is a partisan blog runs in the face of several requests regarding it at RSN. Check before doing things like that. It is a news website run by a cooperative of Israeli journalists with excellent mainstream cvs. Nishidani ( talk) 07:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
And this and this. Attribution would be only needed if the fact were not reported in other sources.
Suggest that we move the background and aftermath sections to 2017 Temple Mount crisis, leaving hits as a page on teh shooting.@ ThePagesWriter:. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 19:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
The part about the incident in Jordan can be moved to the new page. In the first page we can write more about the victims...that one had a young child. By the way...all of this was to be expected following the UNESCO decisions and intensive incitement. I think it's worth mentioning that. There are many articles on the subject. -- Jane955 ( talk) 03:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved as per the consensus, and WP:COMMONNAME. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:32, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
2017 Temple Mount shooting →
2017 Lions' Gate attack? – The present title is anomalous. It is the only article of this type which designates the immediate point of departure of the killers (the
Haram al Sharif/
Temple Mount) as more significant than the actual place site where the attack took place. Secondly, the Temple Mount is one of 2 terms for the departure site.
WP:NPOV would impose in the I/P area that references to the site contain both names. Placing the Jewish/Western name for the site of origin of Arab attackers is self-evidently POV, implying ‘they’ prepared an attack from one of ‘our’ holy sites. Neutral third party advice would be welcome, since I/P editors’ positions are well-known, and mostly predictable. As it stands, ironically, the article should be dealing with the place where the killers were shot, the Haram al-Sharif, the 'Temple mount shooting' can refer to no other fact of that day, and certainly not to the killing of the two Druze policeman some distance from that area.
Nishidani (
talk) 16:05, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Temple Mount is not a Western name. It is definatly a Jewish holy site, as it is a Muslim holy site. The attackers shot from within the compound; that is why metal detectors were placed. I rephrased my reason for opposing. -- Jane955 ( talk) 12:48, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
I'll give more evidence. I am still waiting for external neutral input. All of the negatives above are predictable, save for In ictu oculi, who has, however, accepted an argument that I believe does not stand up to scrutiny.
This article was created within an hour of the attack, so the title chosen does not reflect the principles of WP:COMMONNAME, according to User:Icewhiz's assertion, accepted by many. You can shoot holes in this very easily, see below. It was chosen before one could assess how widespread news coverage would title and describe the incident. This is the first error. (b)If you look at mainstream newspaper reports outside Israel, this is how the attack was reported that day.
Two Israeli police officers have been shot dead and three gunmen killed during an early-morning shootout in one of Jerusalem’s most holy and sensitive sites. The attack – involving three Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin – took place just after 7am in the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif complex in Jerusalem. It began near the Lions’ Gate entrance to the compound, which is revered as a holy site by both Muslims and Jews.
The rare gunfight took place inside a sacred hilltop compound in Jerusalem, known to Jews as Temple Mount and to Muslims as Noble Sanctuary or al-Haram al-Sharif
Three Palestinian attackers have opened fire on Israeli police from inside a major Jerusalem holy site, killing two officers before being shot dead, officials said.
Comment. As the recent book by the Australian's senior Middle east correspondent argues this newspaper is very strongly Pro-Israel. The title choice reflects this. But the the body of the text reads:
Three assailants opened fire on Israeli police in Jerusalem’s Old City today before fleeing to a nearby highly sensitive holy site and being killed by security forces, police said. Three people were wounded in the attack, two of them critically, police said. The incident was among the most serious in recent years in Jerusalem and was likely to heighten Israeli-Palestinian tensions. No details were immediately available on the identity of the attackers. The three were killed at the site known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount, the location of regular clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police, but gunfire rarely occurs there.
The assailants then fled into the compound toward one of world's holiest sites, known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif and known to Jews as the Temple Mount
·The three assailants were killed at the site known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount
They were shot by three Israeli Arabs close to the compound known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif With neutral title (Israeli police killed in attack near Jerusalem holy site
Security camera footage showed the armed assailants emerging to attack from within the sacred compound in the Old City of Jerusalem that Jews revere as the Temple Mount and Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary.
‘Police said the assault began just after 7 a.m. close to the Lion’s Gate into the Old City, near one of the entrances to the complex that holds al-Aqsa Mosque and the golden Dome of the Rock, an ancient esplanade revered by Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary and by Jews as the Temple Mount.’
The attack from the Temple Mount, or in Arabic al-Haram al-Sharif
The Trump administration is "very concerned" at the sight of growing tensions on the Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, where security has been tightened since a terrorist attack last week.
'The United States is very concerned about tensions surrounding the Temple Mount/Haram Al-Sharif, a site holy to Jews, Muslims, and Christians.'
Every oppose vote save one so far is predictable. I hope that is not mirrored by editors identified with the other POV, who fortunately have abstained so far. Now could neutral, unpredictable third parties weigh in? Nishidani ( talk) 16:27, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Here's a bunch of newspaper headlines for the attack: "Two Israeli police and three gunmen killed in shootout at holy site", "2 Israeli police officers killed in shooting in Jerusalem's Old City", "2 Israeli Police Officers Killed in Attack in Old City of Jerusalem", "Shooting at Jerusalem holy site: 3 attackers killed, no Friday prayers", "Jerusalem holy site shuttered after deadly Temple Mount attack", "Jerusalem: Israeli policemen killed in shooting attack", "Palestinians shot dead after Jerusalem Old City attacks", "Jerusalem shooting: Attack in Old City leaves two Israeli police dead, one injured", "2 Israeli police officers fatally shot in Jerusalem's Old City", "Two Israeli Cops Killed in Shooting Near Jerusalem Holy Site, 3 Gunmen Dead: Police" And so on. I find one headline containing the name "Temple Mount" but a virtually endless amount of headlines that doesn't. I don't know if it favors or disfavors either sides POV to include/exclude "Temple Mount" from the article title. But it just seem completely wrong to me. ImTheIP ( talk) 20:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The photo is published by Israeli police on their facebook, but this does not mean it does not promote sexist stereotypes. No matter how you try to whitewash it, the focus of the photo is of a female soldier's behind? There are many other photos available on the facebook, so why was this one chosen? I have seen many photos of female military, just Google "female marines" for examples. Just because the police oublished it does not mean it is not a sexist stereotype, is the claim here that sexism does not exist in the IDF or Israeli police? This is false, and Wikipedia should not support it. I see many photos of this of Israeli female soldiers and YES it is promoting sexist stereotypes. You will see if you compare to other military services like the US the care that is taken with showing females as soldiers on the same level as everyone else, not as "morale boosts" (which I have heard IDF officials call then before) - Wikipedia should not participate or promote the objectification of fenale soldiers - this is an encyclopedia, not a locker room calender. Seraphim System ( talk) 03:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Female Israeli soldiers are objectified to such an extent that they have become a sort of a fetish for Internet deviants...
Results: This data shows that participants experienced their army tenure as gendered and sexualized beings, and felt this could not be separated from the rest of their identities. Rather, they described this sexualization as the main, and sometimes only, category by which they were identified. For these women, the Israeli army engendered a space in which both men and women were encouraged to act out gendered stereotypes: men were rewarded for being strong aggressors, and women were rewarded for being nurturing and pretty. This created two, very different, sets of hierarchies, and two separate currencies. Implications: Results indicate that women experience differential treatment and devaluation compared to men in the Israeli army. Women are viewed primarily as feminized or sexual objects, and thus objectified and marginalized. While men are primarily valued for their abilities as soldiers and warriors, women are more likely to be evaluated by their sexual attractiveness to men or date-ability.
I do not see anything sexist in the photograph and see no reason to change it. The rest of the stuff is off-topic and noise, as far as I am concerned. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:58, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
References
In Israel, where veils are not worn by the mainstream, and women are treated equally, there is nothing sexist in such a shot.and I posted several WP:RS to the effect that veiling is irrelevant, and that the culture of assault and objectification of women in the IDF (and also the police force) is well-documented. It is relevant to the discussion of the photo, not to the article topic. The photo is what is being discussed here, and the context of the article it is being used in doesn't change that. We have at least three photos. I have looked through a lot of army/police photos and I have noticed that male police officers and soldiers are frequently depicted differently from women (i.e. the masked police officer is a common theme) and that photos of women are often sexualized (whether back or front, they are shown as "pretty" and "objects of male pleasure" - this is the "male gaze" imagery) Female officers are shown in a way that is pleasing to men. The focus of this photo is the woman. It is not just a coincidental "group shot" of police officers walking away. Contrast with the other image in the album of men walking up the stairs, it is photographed from the front and shows him leading the group. I could find countless other examples of this "motif" but I am not sure they can be posted here for copyright reasons. Seraphim System ( talk) 10:18, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I know WP:WAW is an essay, that is why I introduced it as an essay in the comment that you are theoretically responding to. In fact I italicized essay so no one would mistake it for a policy. But as far as I know it is a respected and widely-used essay. I've seen it used across a wide range of articles in different topic areas, so I was hoping it would be respected here as well. There are other photos available so there is no need to use this one. If you read the essay, which I recommend, it suggests avoiding male gaze imagery unless it is on topic for the article (which you have already conceded it is not.) We don't lose anything by replacing it with a similar image from the same source, so I am also having a difficult time understanding the rationale to keep this particular image. Seraphim System ( talk) 01:14, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Good catch by Seraphim System :-). I'm not sure about "sexist stereotypes" but the image does not add much to the article and can be removed on these grounds. They look like tourists walking around -- a fairly nondescript group of people carrying backpacks and shot from behind; I would not have guessed that they were police personnel. If there are other images available, why not replace this one? I can see how it can be objectifying, or at least distracting. It's definitely distracting from the purpose of improving the article by causing this lengthy discussion. Remove the image -- and problem solved! K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
I find this amateur cultural criticism rather tiresome and pointless. I have a suggestion: just open an RfC with two (or three options), perhaps the current photo, or another one from the same Facebook page (one can also have an option for no photo). There will at least be an objective to the discussion, rather than forum-style discussion which doesn't go anywhere. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:42, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with the photo's usage. There is no licencing problem, and it is on-topic: it shows the location of the event covered and it shows some of those involved in the event (but without the problem of showing faces and personalizing things). But I'd like to see a specific date and time given to the photo. I don't see a sense of any immediate "responding" there, it is more like the winding-down aftermath of a response (but that is a title problem, not an off-topic photograph problem). What is depicted is a large group of armed and uniformed on-duty police walking through a place they are never usually seen walking through, and doing it as part of of the specific event that this article covers. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 15:21, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
While discussion about the title of the article goes on, I have replaced "Temple Mount" phrase in the first sentence of the lead with "Temple Mount (also known as Haram al-Sharif)". The reasons are many. A few:
Feel free to discuss etc. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:29, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Incidentally, if you want to ask other people to weigh in, the proper way is to either post on a noticeboard or open an RfC, not ping people who happened to agree with you on a related RfC. You have been editing for many years; surely I don't need to tell you these basic things? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:06, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Since I am rather pissed off by the nonsense displayed here, I'll make the effort to do a review of the news media as to what the "common name" is, as shown in the lead or beginning of the articles covering this incident. I am only looking at international media:
The attack – involving three Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin – took place just after 7am in the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif complex in Jerusalem.
Palestinian gunmen ambushed and killed two Israeli police officers at the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem on Friday, bringing bloodshed and chaos to a religious site that is sacred to both Jews and Muslims. According to Israeli police, the three attackers smuggled weapons into the mosque complex - which is known to Jews as the Temple Mount - and then burst out and opened fire on the officers early on Friday morning.
The attack took place a little after 7 a.m. local time by the Lions' Gate in the Old City walls, next to what Muslims call the Noble Sanctuary and Jews the Temple Mount.
Israeli media reports said the attackers opened fire near the place known to Jews as Temple Mount — the most holy site in Judaism — which is also the site of the Al Aqsa mosque..
(Incidentally my favourite newspaper in the world ( Financial Times) and my favorite magazine in the world ( The Economist), both use both names. They actually say the Al-Aqsa mosque compound. But anyway.)
I fully expect all of this to have zero effect on people who will continue to insist that black is white. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:09, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I question this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2017_Temple_Mount_shooting&diff=802753067&oldid=797021481 On the following grounds a) the persons were indicted today and the story is developing, b) while the names and photos of the accused have already spread in Israeli media, that is no reason for Wikipedia to pile on c) there is no reason not to let the legal process run its course, and if they are found guilty, or at least have stood trial, then include that information. Doesn't Wikipedia have policies for when arrests and indictments are reasonable to include, given the potential for harm such inclusion has? ImTheIP ( talk) 20:40, 28 September 2017 (UTC)