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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Though Canadian, I have been following developments closely in both Spanish- and Catalan-language media. I would like to warn everybody that many reports in the press are extremely biased, depending on the position of the newspaper, to such an extent that almost everything needs to be double-checked in different sources. Even on straightforward factual matters, Madrid dailies like El País, ABC, El Mundo, etc., can't be trusted on their own, to say nothing of Catalan nationalist sources. Generally, the non-separatist Barcelona press, especially La Vanguardia and El Periódico, has steered a middle course and seems most reliable.
For example, the article currently contains this passage, citing Madrid-based ABC and El Confidencial: On the other hand, a councilwoman of the Republican Left of Catalonia (ECR, for its acronym in Spanish) accused the police of pushing her down the stairs, breaking all the fingers of her hand one by one and sexual abuse during a polling station evacuation. However, the scene was recorded and the images show that the woman threw herself to the ground when the agents asked her to leave. She has just an inflammation in one finger.[139][140]
Reading this, one gets the impression that she fabricated the whole thing. But the truth is much more nuanced than that. It turns out that she was wrong initially about the extent of her injuries, and once she visited the hospital she found out that her hand injuries were less serious than broken fingers. But read the description in La Vanguardia of the same video: Su relato dio la vuelta al mundo por la dureza de sus palabras y el desgarrador vídeo donde la zarandeaban, la tiraban al suelo y la arrastraban escaleras abajo.[...] Los vídeos muestran como el agente se ensaña con su mano izquierda, aunque finalmente donde sufrió la inflamación fue en la derecha, seguramente fruto de la caída. [Her story was heard around the world both because of the harshness of her words and because of the heartrending video in which she was shaken, thrown to the ground and dragged down stairs.[...] The videos show the officer tormenting her left hand, though in the end the inflammation was in her right hand, undoubtedly as a result of the fall.]
Although I don't want to go into too much detail here, another example is the reporting of statements by foreign governments, UN officials, and international election observers. What I have found is that, even when reporting on the very same statements, Catalan nationalist media and the Madrid press emphasize the facts that favour their own side and downplay or ignore the rest, to such an extent that the intention of the statements can be seriously distorted to readers. Both sides are equally guilty of this.
To give a final example of what I'm talking about, the journalists' union ("Consejo de informativos") at the Spanish state broadcaster, TVE, called on the entire leadership of their news division to resign over the network's coverage of the referendum, writing that TVE "did everything in its power to disseminate a partial and biased view of events." [2] Unsurprisingly, the statement was prominently reported on in the Barcelona press (both separatist and unionist), but featured much less prominently, if at all, in the web portals of the main Madrid newspapers.
To put things succinctly: Spanish media have taken sides in what is becoming something of an information war, and even reporting of factual material has become biased and unreliable. Checking sources on different sides is essential in order for this article to remain neutral. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 06:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
You are correct 24.50.161.64, I would suggest to rely on international media for the controversial parts of the article. -- Auledas ( talk) 18:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Here is the latest example. The international press (BBC, The Guardian, etc.) are leading their coverage of Catalonia with the fact that the Spanish government is apologizing for the police action on Oct. 1. At present, this information is nowhere to be found on the front pages of the websites for El País or ABC. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 14:13, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 (
talk) 16:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)URGENT: Wikipedia is including opinions, non-specifications and matters not yet proved. Wikipedia is getting so biased that is looking like a tabloid! Please, be more objective!!!
In your 5th paragraph, we can read, for example:
"On the day of the poll, the passivity (CATALAN POLICE PASSIVITY IS A UNIONIST ARGUMENT USED AS AN ALIBI FOR THE SPANISH POLICE BRUTALITY) of the Mossos d'Esquadra (the autonomous police force of Catalonia) prevented the closure of the polling stations (MOSSOS D'ESQUADRA CLOSED 90 POLL STATIONS! BESIDES, A COUPLE OF MOSSOS D'ESQUADRA WERE LOOKING OUT MANY FACILITIES IN ORDER TO PREVENT ANY INCIDENT. THE WHOLE BODY OF MOSSOS D'ESQUADRA FOR ALL DUTIES AND ALL THE TERRITORY IS MADE OF 16,783 OFFICERS AND THERE WERE 2,315 POLL STATIONS! PLEASE, BE MORE OBJECTIVE!), following which the National Police Corps and the Guardia Civil intervened;[31][32] 893 civilians and 431 agents of the Nacional Police and the Guardia Civil (ONLY 9 AGENTS ACCORDING TO CATALAN PUBLIC HOSPITALS REPORT) were reported to have been injured.[33][32][34] The Mossos d'Esquadra are being investigated for disobedience, for not having complied with the orders of the High Court of Justice of Catalonia to prevent the referendum (THAT'S JUST AN INVESTIGATION, BUT NOT GUILTY. AND THE SPANISH POLICE, WHICH ALLEGEDLY FOLLOWED THOSE INSTRUCTIONS AND PREVENTED THE REFERENDUM, HAS BEEN CONDEMNED BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT! SO PLESE, BE MORE OBJECTIVE).[35] Josep Lluís Trapero Álvarez, the Mossos d'Esquadra Major, is being investigated for sedition by the Spanish National Court (THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE DOES NOT REQUEST PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES FOR TRAPERO).[36] The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al, urged the Spanish government to probe all acts of violence that took place to prevent the referendum, through impartial and independent investigations."
[1]
[2]
http://www.diarimes.com/noticies/actualitat/catalunya/2017/10/01/els_mossos_informen_que_han_tancat_col_legis_electorals_arreu_catalunya_25491_3029.html</ref>
[3]
[4]
[5]
Cite error: A <ref>
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(see the
help page).
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 16:44, 6 October 2017 (UTC)Spanish unionist OKdiario lacks of rigurosity, like almost all of the Spanish press.
For example, they assured that Catalan government already had a new coin, with the Catalan's president face. [6]
References
Here is an article on the BBC website about how one-sided the Madrid press and the Catalan nationalist press have both become: [10] "Such contrasting interpretations of what is happening in Catalonia reflect the deeply divisive nature of Spain's territorial crisis and the media has been a key factor in fuelling the polarisation. Newspapers, radio and television have been mobilised on both sides." 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 18:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This is so evident... that a catalan like me has to spend time switching channels (both national TVs) to understand what happens in every incident. I think catalan TV brings nationa view/sentiment to an unseen extent, but is still much more truthful in voicing facts and events (for instance today in the biggest unionist celebration in barcelona ever, they did a 24h following, giving voice to a lot of people in the street, whereas in the referendum, no national TV did that, and only expressed pro-unionist voices and facts, like the policeman injuried). The other day a reporter from a public spanish tv was caught live telling people on the street to place the spanish flag in a more visible way and waving it for the shot. http://bluper.elespanol.com/noticias/pillado-reportero-telemadrid-pidiendo-ensenar-bandera-espana
or this: http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/11/un-camara-de-tve-aparta-a-empujones-a-una-manifestante-en-pleno-directo_a_23203953/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.111.111 ( talk) 00:15, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Checking sources on different sides is essential in order for this article to remain neutral. Ahh, you must be new here! In a perfect world, this would be how Wikipedia works, but the reality on the ground is much different. In the normal course of editing Wikipedia articles, editors choose carefully the sources that fit their personal systemic bias, and minimize at all costs the impact of any sources that do not toe their party line. This is perfectly legitimate behavior according to Wikipedia policy. And it enables editors to enforce a twisted brand of "neutrality" where they can say: "Look! All my sources agree and are in harmony! I am neutral and following the sources!" Outlying or contradictory sources are assailed as not sufficiently reliable or some other technicality found in WP:IRS. So it's all well and good that you are interested in maintaining a higher standard of "neutrality" but I am sorry to say that it will not be realized in the foreseeable future. 72.201.104.140 ( talk) 00:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Several media outlets, including Voice of America here, are accusing Russia of interfering. Up until yesterday/today I can only find local and smaller media mentioning it though. Include or wait? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 16:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Monitoring social media, Russia Today do appear to have an agenda, though whether Catalans themselves are habital consumers of their Spanish service remains unproven. Culloty82 ( talk) 16:36, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
“It's not that Russia necessarily wants the independence of Catalonia. What it’s principally seeking is to foment divisions to gradually undermine Europe’s democracy and institutions,” said Brett Schaffer, an analyst of the Alliance to Safeguard Democracy, a project supported by the German Marshall Fund, which monitors pro-Kremlin information networks.
undermine Europe's democracy and institutions. But your complaints are WP:SOAPy personal opinions. Neither yours nor mine matters-- what matters is that these are wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources saying this. P.S. in case you think this is about American politics, you should be aware that Russia has been accused in meddling in France and Germany, and also in Poland and Ukraine before the US election. -- Yalens ( talk) 00:53, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
to weaken the United States and the European UnionRT & Sputnik were the furthest extent of objectivity, putting the level of meddling perpetuated by the Russian state-funded media on the same level as how American state-funded media reported on the story. I'm not really sure what you meant by that last part about American politics. You're absolutely right that this isn't the first time that Russia was accused of meddling, and if these accusations extend to full confirmations it wouldn't be the first time either, but they're accusations. In instances that have been confirmed, including as you mentioned the interference in the US, we can state clearly that it is simply an interference and not a mere accusation of interference. This is another instance of undue weight to a sub-topic of the article. The most we can say is that the state funded media that reported with a clear bias which could have influenced the vote, but that holds true with other states that have state-funded media outlets. Al Jazeera seems to have a pro-independence bias based on how they covered it, but none of us are seriously considering "Accusations of Qatari Interference" are we? BrendonTheWizard ( talk) 01:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Russia has nothing to gain from this and unless Russians advised the Spanish government to crack down on the pro-referendum people, it is unlikely their involvement had any serious impact on these turns of events. The Government in Madrid is going to fall. Spain is a failed state thanks to their incompetent Galician Overlord of a Prime Minister as well as the political culture of Castilians that makes any union with any non-Castilians without the premise of fear or uncertainty absolutely dismal to the say the least. The people of Madrid did this to themselves. They should had been forthcoming with dialogue with Catalonians. They should had invested in actual federalism. In fact, they should outsourced Austrians and Germans and let them rebuild Spain after Franco's departure as a Germany/Austria in the Iberian Peninsula. Or they could had just asked the Belgians. Nevertheless, the people of Madrid did not consider how coercing ethnic minorities in Spain could lead to disastrous outcomes and they didn't respect the democratic spirit of the people, which they easily could have done and helped campaign for the stay vote during the referendum similar to how London did for the Scottish Referendum. What happens is what the people of the government in Madrid allowed to have happened. ~ Prince of Catalonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:1600:36F:1CB5:D60E:F779:456F ( talk) 19:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
"On the day of the poll, the Mossos d'Esquadra failed to execute the direct order issued by the High Court of Justice of Catalonia to close the voting centers before they opened and to confiscate voting materials."
This is actually a point of contention between the Spanish police and the Mossos d'Esquadra. It is undisputed that the Mossos closed hundreds of polling stations on election day, where they encountered no resistance. However, they were under strict orders from their chain of command not to use force in doing so, because to do so would be disproportionate to the objective sought. (I think the Mossos' view is this: Arguably, though the poll may well be illegal, preventing votes from being counted does not justify the use of force against groups of civilians, and nothing in the judicial order implied that the objective was sufficiently important to warrant the use of such force.) Thus the Mossos claim that they complied with the judge's orders to the extent reasonably possible. It is possible that at some point there will be prosecutions of the Mossos leadership by the Spanish authorities for dereliction of duty on October 1, but it is important to understand that this passage is not neutral as currently written. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 05:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This entire section appears biased to minimize the violence. It reads largely as though it's mainly trying to rebut what is commonly reported in the media. I think it would be useful to include general statements by international media that characterize the overall scale and the severity of the violence. For example, international media were struck by the fact that these were peaceful, passive protesters, including people of all ages. In contrast to riot police action at the G8 and so forth, these were really ordinary people being attacked. It is important to report things this way, because this is what has had such an impact on public opinion, through the videos especially. Also, statements from Amnesty International and other human rights organizations would be useful. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 10:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
§"the Mossos d'Esquadra failed to execute the direct order issued by the High Court of Justice of Catalonia". FALSE. It has not been proved! Not even started the investigation. On the other hand, the Spanish police brutality has been condemned ref: http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-unanimously-rejects-police-repression-in-catalonia_198528_102.html
Is there no minimum turnout required? Do I read the referendum law correct on this? Is the only relevant part art. 4.4 : "If the counting of votes validly made gives a result of more affirmative than negative votes, it shall mean the independence of Catalonia."
This is very relevant because those who want Catalonia to remain in Spain, are faced with the dilemma of voting 'no' or stay home. If they turn out and vote 'no', the number of 'no' votes will be higher and 'no' will have more chance to win, but if 'yes' wins nonetheless, they will have given the referendum more legitimacy by boosting the turnout. If they however stay home because they don't want to take part in a referendum illegal by Spanish legal standards, the 'yes' vote will have more chance to win because turnout is not relevant according to the Catalan law.---- Bancki ( talk) 13:26, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Minimum Turnout should be a red flag for any respected democracy, but when the Central Government in Spain decided to everything in its power to prevent a vote form taken place, it sort of puts legitimacy in counting the vote regardless of the shortage of votes as it is an official act of harming the democratic spirit of the Spanish people. Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)I cannot see the grounds to support such sort of legitimacy, no legitimacy (even sort of) can be assigned to this so called referendum. See the Code of Good practices from Venice Commission [1] To have legitimacy, it should be first of all legal, and this one was not; not to talk about the irregularities (multiple voting, change of rules one hour earlier to introduce universal census, voting without envelops or in the street, etc. The use of the force to comply with judicial order to close the polling stations has no relation with whatsoever legitimacy Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC) Look, the people who run the government in Madrid are almost as stupid as the people who run the government in D.C. (Washington, D.C. of the United States). The United Kingdom did it correctly when encountering this problem. Let them (the ethnic minority seeking independence) Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)Who says that Catalans are an ethnic minority? Based on what? Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC) have their stupid vote and use enough resources to insure the vote turns out negative, thereby ruining the chance for independence. The Government in Madrid has such low confidence in itself, which is nailing the final nail in the coffin that it has to bully and do everything in its power to prevent a referendum from taking place instead of upsetting it by a major turnout of people against the premise of the ballot. If Spain becomes no more, well they deserve it with this stunt and anyone arguing otherwise has no idea how the law actually functions in Spain. This is not the UK, even though it should certain act more like the UK than it currently does. ~ Prince of Catalonia
Hi. I added to the results section the results the Govern showed by vegueria. I thought it would be interesting to show the only results by territorial division the Govern published.
In other way, I see very few things about "the pro-Unity side". I mean, interesting things that would be shown like the support to the Police and the Guardia Civil when they departed from several provinces or the demonstrationa on September 30 in all Spain for the unity of the country. I don't know if I did not read well or if they were really omitted. Asturkian ( talk) 08:29, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
comarca | municipality | registered | turnout | valid | "yes" |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Alt Camp | El Pont d'Armentera | 393 | 967 | 958 | 899 |
Pla de l'Estany | Palol de Revardit | 354 | 1.002 | 999 | 982 |
Noguera | Os de Balaguer | 783 | 1.463 | 1.457 | 1.382 |
Vallès Occidental | Polinyà | 5.910 | 10.247 | 10.215 | 9.717 |
Vallès Occidental | Palau-solità i Plegamans | 10.891 | 15.491 | 15.459 | 10.869 |
--(corrected)---- Bancki ( talk) 09:46, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
From the wikipedia articles and media coverage thus far in 2017, it seems that there is a glaring lack of inclusion of the "Franco"-Catalan People, I mean Catalan community in territorial France, and their Right to be included in the historical movement, declarations, articles, etc. Perhaps wikipedia needs to expand info on this segment of society, while consolidating the several-dozen articles associated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.209.40.121 ( talk) 18:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I see four problems with the following sentence: "The approved law is illegal according to the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy which require a two-thirds majority in the Catalan parliament for any change to Catalonia's status."
As it is, this sentence does not convey any reliable information. It should either be removed or edited to address these concerns.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.104.227 ( talk • contribs)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Though Canadian, I have been following developments closely in both Spanish- and Catalan-language media. I would like to warn everybody that many reports in the press are extremely biased, depending on the position of the newspaper, to such an extent that almost everything needs to be double-checked in different sources. Even on straightforward factual matters, Madrid dailies like El País, ABC, El Mundo, etc., can't be trusted on their own, to say nothing of Catalan nationalist sources. Generally, the non-separatist Barcelona press, especially La Vanguardia and El Periódico, has steered a middle course and seems most reliable.
For example, the article currently contains this passage, citing Madrid-based ABC and El Confidencial: On the other hand, a councilwoman of the Republican Left of Catalonia (ECR, for its acronym in Spanish) accused the police of pushing her down the stairs, breaking all the fingers of her hand one by one and sexual abuse during a polling station evacuation. However, the scene was recorded and the images show that the woman threw herself to the ground when the agents asked her to leave. She has just an inflammation in one finger.[139][140]
Reading this, one gets the impression that she fabricated the whole thing. But the truth is much more nuanced than that. It turns out that she was wrong initially about the extent of her injuries, and once she visited the hospital she found out that her hand injuries were less serious than broken fingers. But read the description in La Vanguardia of the same video: Su relato dio la vuelta al mundo por la dureza de sus palabras y el desgarrador vídeo donde la zarandeaban, la tiraban al suelo y la arrastraban escaleras abajo.[...] Los vídeos muestran como el agente se ensaña con su mano izquierda, aunque finalmente donde sufrió la inflamación fue en la derecha, seguramente fruto de la caída. [Her story was heard around the world both because of the harshness of her words and because of the heartrending video in which she was shaken, thrown to the ground and dragged down stairs.[...] The videos show the officer tormenting her left hand, though in the end the inflammation was in her right hand, undoubtedly as a result of the fall.]
Although I don't want to go into too much detail here, another example is the reporting of statements by foreign governments, UN officials, and international election observers. What I have found is that, even when reporting on the very same statements, Catalan nationalist media and the Madrid press emphasize the facts that favour their own side and downplay or ignore the rest, to such an extent that the intention of the statements can be seriously distorted to readers. Both sides are equally guilty of this.
To give a final example of what I'm talking about, the journalists' union ("Consejo de informativos") at the Spanish state broadcaster, TVE, called on the entire leadership of their news division to resign over the network's coverage of the referendum, writing that TVE "did everything in its power to disseminate a partial and biased view of events." [2] Unsurprisingly, the statement was prominently reported on in the Barcelona press (both separatist and unionist), but featured much less prominently, if at all, in the web portals of the main Madrid newspapers.
To put things succinctly: Spanish media have taken sides in what is becoming something of an information war, and even reporting of factual material has become biased and unreliable. Checking sources on different sides is essential in order for this article to remain neutral. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 06:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
You are correct 24.50.161.64, I would suggest to rely on international media for the controversial parts of the article. -- Auledas ( talk) 18:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Here is the latest example. The international press (BBC, The Guardian, etc.) are leading their coverage of Catalonia with the fact that the Spanish government is apologizing for the police action on Oct. 1. At present, this information is nowhere to be found on the front pages of the websites for El País or ABC. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 14:13, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 (
talk) 16:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)URGENT: Wikipedia is including opinions, non-specifications and matters not yet proved. Wikipedia is getting so biased that is looking like a tabloid! Please, be more objective!!!
In your 5th paragraph, we can read, for example:
"On the day of the poll, the passivity (CATALAN POLICE PASSIVITY IS A UNIONIST ARGUMENT USED AS AN ALIBI FOR THE SPANISH POLICE BRUTALITY) of the Mossos d'Esquadra (the autonomous police force of Catalonia) prevented the closure of the polling stations (MOSSOS D'ESQUADRA CLOSED 90 POLL STATIONS! BESIDES, A COUPLE OF MOSSOS D'ESQUADRA WERE LOOKING OUT MANY FACILITIES IN ORDER TO PREVENT ANY INCIDENT. THE WHOLE BODY OF MOSSOS D'ESQUADRA FOR ALL DUTIES AND ALL THE TERRITORY IS MADE OF 16,783 OFFICERS AND THERE WERE 2,315 POLL STATIONS! PLEASE, BE MORE OBJECTIVE!), following which the National Police Corps and the Guardia Civil intervened;[31][32] 893 civilians and 431 agents of the Nacional Police and the Guardia Civil (ONLY 9 AGENTS ACCORDING TO CATALAN PUBLIC HOSPITALS REPORT) were reported to have been injured.[33][32][34] The Mossos d'Esquadra are being investigated for disobedience, for not having complied with the orders of the High Court of Justice of Catalonia to prevent the referendum (THAT'S JUST AN INVESTIGATION, BUT NOT GUILTY. AND THE SPANISH POLICE, WHICH ALLEGEDLY FOLLOWED THOSE INSTRUCTIONS AND PREVENTED THE REFERENDUM, HAS BEEN CONDEMNED BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT! SO PLESE, BE MORE OBJECTIVE).[35] Josep Lluís Trapero Álvarez, the Mossos d'Esquadra Major, is being investigated for sedition by the Spanish National Court (THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE DOES NOT REQUEST PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES FOR TRAPERO).[36] The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al, urged the Spanish government to probe all acts of violence that took place to prevent the referendum, through impartial and independent investigations."
[1]
[2]
http://www.diarimes.com/noticies/actualitat/catalunya/2017/10/01/els_mossos_informen_que_han_tancat_col_legis_electorals_arreu_catalunya_25491_3029.html</ref>
[3]
[4]
[5]
Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 16:44, 6 October 2017 (UTC)Spanish unionist OKdiario lacks of rigurosity, like almost all of the Spanish press.
For example, they assured that Catalan government already had a new coin, with the Catalan's president face. [6]
References
Here is an article on the BBC website about how one-sided the Madrid press and the Catalan nationalist press have both become: [10] "Such contrasting interpretations of what is happening in Catalonia reflect the deeply divisive nature of Spain's territorial crisis and the media has been a key factor in fuelling the polarisation. Newspapers, radio and television have been mobilised on both sides." 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 18:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This is so evident... that a catalan like me has to spend time switching channels (both national TVs) to understand what happens in every incident. I think catalan TV brings nationa view/sentiment to an unseen extent, but is still much more truthful in voicing facts and events (for instance today in the biggest unionist celebration in barcelona ever, they did a 24h following, giving voice to a lot of people in the street, whereas in the referendum, no national TV did that, and only expressed pro-unionist voices and facts, like the policeman injuried). The other day a reporter from a public spanish tv was caught live telling people on the street to place the spanish flag in a more visible way and waving it for the shot. http://bluper.elespanol.com/noticias/pillado-reportero-telemadrid-pidiendo-ensenar-bandera-espana
or this: http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/11/un-camara-de-tve-aparta-a-empujones-a-una-manifestante-en-pleno-directo_a_23203953/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.111.111 ( talk) 00:15, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Checking sources on different sides is essential in order for this article to remain neutral. Ahh, you must be new here! In a perfect world, this would be how Wikipedia works, but the reality on the ground is much different. In the normal course of editing Wikipedia articles, editors choose carefully the sources that fit their personal systemic bias, and minimize at all costs the impact of any sources that do not toe their party line. This is perfectly legitimate behavior according to Wikipedia policy. And it enables editors to enforce a twisted brand of "neutrality" where they can say: "Look! All my sources agree and are in harmony! I am neutral and following the sources!" Outlying or contradictory sources are assailed as not sufficiently reliable or some other technicality found in WP:IRS. So it's all well and good that you are interested in maintaining a higher standard of "neutrality" but I am sorry to say that it will not be realized in the foreseeable future. 72.201.104.140 ( talk) 00:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Several media outlets, including Voice of America here, are accusing Russia of interfering. Up until yesterday/today I can only find local and smaller media mentioning it though. Include or wait? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 16:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Monitoring social media, Russia Today do appear to have an agenda, though whether Catalans themselves are habital consumers of their Spanish service remains unproven. Culloty82 ( talk) 16:36, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
“It's not that Russia necessarily wants the independence of Catalonia. What it’s principally seeking is to foment divisions to gradually undermine Europe’s democracy and institutions,” said Brett Schaffer, an analyst of the Alliance to Safeguard Democracy, a project supported by the German Marshall Fund, which monitors pro-Kremlin information networks.
undermine Europe's democracy and institutions. But your complaints are WP:SOAPy personal opinions. Neither yours nor mine matters-- what matters is that these are wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources saying this. P.S. in case you think this is about American politics, you should be aware that Russia has been accused in meddling in France and Germany, and also in Poland and Ukraine before the US election. -- Yalens ( talk) 00:53, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
to weaken the United States and the European UnionRT & Sputnik were the furthest extent of objectivity, putting the level of meddling perpetuated by the Russian state-funded media on the same level as how American state-funded media reported on the story. I'm not really sure what you meant by that last part about American politics. You're absolutely right that this isn't the first time that Russia was accused of meddling, and if these accusations extend to full confirmations it wouldn't be the first time either, but they're accusations. In instances that have been confirmed, including as you mentioned the interference in the US, we can state clearly that it is simply an interference and not a mere accusation of interference. This is another instance of undue weight to a sub-topic of the article. The most we can say is that the state funded media that reported with a clear bias which could have influenced the vote, but that holds true with other states that have state-funded media outlets. Al Jazeera seems to have a pro-independence bias based on how they covered it, but none of us are seriously considering "Accusations of Qatari Interference" are we? BrendonTheWizard ( talk) 01:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Russia has nothing to gain from this and unless Russians advised the Spanish government to crack down on the pro-referendum people, it is unlikely their involvement had any serious impact on these turns of events. The Government in Madrid is going to fall. Spain is a failed state thanks to their incompetent Galician Overlord of a Prime Minister as well as the political culture of Castilians that makes any union with any non-Castilians without the premise of fear or uncertainty absolutely dismal to the say the least. The people of Madrid did this to themselves. They should had been forthcoming with dialogue with Catalonians. They should had invested in actual federalism. In fact, they should outsourced Austrians and Germans and let them rebuild Spain after Franco's departure as a Germany/Austria in the Iberian Peninsula. Or they could had just asked the Belgians. Nevertheless, the people of Madrid did not consider how coercing ethnic minorities in Spain could lead to disastrous outcomes and they didn't respect the democratic spirit of the people, which they easily could have done and helped campaign for the stay vote during the referendum similar to how London did for the Scottish Referendum. What happens is what the people of the government in Madrid allowed to have happened. ~ Prince of Catalonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:1600:36F:1CB5:D60E:F779:456F ( talk) 19:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
"On the day of the poll, the Mossos d'Esquadra failed to execute the direct order issued by the High Court of Justice of Catalonia to close the voting centers before they opened and to confiscate voting materials."
This is actually a point of contention between the Spanish police and the Mossos d'Esquadra. It is undisputed that the Mossos closed hundreds of polling stations on election day, where they encountered no resistance. However, they were under strict orders from their chain of command not to use force in doing so, because to do so would be disproportionate to the objective sought. (I think the Mossos' view is this: Arguably, though the poll may well be illegal, preventing votes from being counted does not justify the use of force against groups of civilians, and nothing in the judicial order implied that the objective was sufficiently important to warrant the use of such force.) Thus the Mossos claim that they complied with the judge's orders to the extent reasonably possible. It is possible that at some point there will be prosecutions of the Mossos leadership by the Spanish authorities for dereliction of duty on October 1, but it is important to understand that this passage is not neutral as currently written. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 05:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This entire section appears biased to minimize the violence. It reads largely as though it's mainly trying to rebut what is commonly reported in the media. I think it would be useful to include general statements by international media that characterize the overall scale and the severity of the violence. For example, international media were struck by the fact that these were peaceful, passive protesters, including people of all ages. In contrast to riot police action at the G8 and so forth, these were really ordinary people being attacked. It is important to report things this way, because this is what has had such an impact on public opinion, through the videos especially. Also, statements from Amnesty International and other human rights organizations would be useful. 24.50.161.64 ( talk) 10:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
§"the Mossos d'Esquadra failed to execute the direct order issued by the High Court of Justice of Catalonia". FALSE. It has not been proved! Not even started the investigation. On the other hand, the Spanish police brutality has been condemned ref: http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-unanimously-rejects-police-repression-in-catalonia_198528_102.html
Is there no minimum turnout required? Do I read the referendum law correct on this? Is the only relevant part art. 4.4 : "If the counting of votes validly made gives a result of more affirmative than negative votes, it shall mean the independence of Catalonia."
This is very relevant because those who want Catalonia to remain in Spain, are faced with the dilemma of voting 'no' or stay home. If they turn out and vote 'no', the number of 'no' votes will be higher and 'no' will have more chance to win, but if 'yes' wins nonetheless, they will have given the referendum more legitimacy by boosting the turnout. If they however stay home because they don't want to take part in a referendum illegal by Spanish legal standards, the 'yes' vote will have more chance to win because turnout is not relevant according to the Catalan law.---- Bancki ( talk) 13:26, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Minimum Turnout should be a red flag for any respected democracy, but when the Central Government in Spain decided to everything in its power to prevent a vote form taken place, it sort of puts legitimacy in counting the vote regardless of the shortage of votes as it is an official act of harming the democratic spirit of the Spanish people. Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)I cannot see the grounds to support such sort of legitimacy, no legitimacy (even sort of) can be assigned to this so called referendum. See the Code of Good practices from Venice Commission [1] To have legitimacy, it should be first of all legal, and this one was not; not to talk about the irregularities (multiple voting, change of rules one hour earlier to introduce universal census, voting without envelops or in the street, etc. The use of the force to comply with judicial order to close the polling stations has no relation with whatsoever legitimacy Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC) Look, the people who run the government in Madrid are almost as stupid as the people who run the government in D.C. (Washington, D.C. of the United States). The United Kingdom did it correctly when encountering this problem. Let them (the ethnic minority seeking independence) Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)Who says that Catalans are an ethnic minority? Based on what? Davilem ( talk) 07:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC) have their stupid vote and use enough resources to insure the vote turns out negative, thereby ruining the chance for independence. The Government in Madrid has such low confidence in itself, which is nailing the final nail in the coffin that it has to bully and do everything in its power to prevent a referendum from taking place instead of upsetting it by a major turnout of people against the premise of the ballot. If Spain becomes no more, well they deserve it with this stunt and anyone arguing otherwise has no idea how the law actually functions in Spain. This is not the UK, even though it should certain act more like the UK than it currently does. ~ Prince of Catalonia
Hi. I added to the results section the results the Govern showed by vegueria. I thought it would be interesting to show the only results by territorial division the Govern published.
In other way, I see very few things about "the pro-Unity side". I mean, interesting things that would be shown like the support to the Police and the Guardia Civil when they departed from several provinces or the demonstrationa on September 30 in all Spain for the unity of the country. I don't know if I did not read well or if they were really omitted. Asturkian ( talk) 08:29, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
comarca | municipality | registered | turnout | valid | "yes" |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Alt Camp | El Pont d'Armentera | 393 | 967 | 958 | 899 |
Pla de l'Estany | Palol de Revardit | 354 | 1.002 | 999 | 982 |
Noguera | Os de Balaguer | 783 | 1.463 | 1.457 | 1.382 |
Vallès Occidental | Polinyà | 5.910 | 10.247 | 10.215 | 9.717 |
Vallès Occidental | Palau-solità i Plegamans | 10.891 | 15.491 | 15.459 | 10.869 |
--(corrected)---- Bancki ( talk) 09:46, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
From the wikipedia articles and media coverage thus far in 2017, it seems that there is a glaring lack of inclusion of the "Franco"-Catalan People, I mean Catalan community in territorial France, and their Right to be included in the historical movement, declarations, articles, etc. Perhaps wikipedia needs to expand info on this segment of society, while consolidating the several-dozen articles associated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.209.40.121 ( talk) 18:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I see four problems with the following sentence: "The approved law is illegal according to the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy which require a two-thirds majority in the Catalan parliament for any change to Catalonia's status."
As it is, this sentence does not convey any reliable information. It should either be removed or edited to address these concerns.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.104.227 ( talk • contribs)