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§The final medical report states there were 1.066 civilian attended in Catalan hospitals as well as 12 policemen (including 1 catalan police officer). [1]. Statistically, 7 of them were cathegorised as "severe" and 23 og them were over 79years old, as well as 2 children under 11.
About this edit: (890 civilians and 39 agents received medical treatment (scrapes and bruises are not injuries...))
Of course scrapes and bruises are injuries. Let's see the medical definition: An injury is damage to your body. It is a general term that refers to harm caused by accidents, falls, hits, weapons, and more. (...) Wounds are injuries that break the skin or other body tissues. They include cuts, scrapes, scratches, and punctured skin. (...) Other common types of injuries include Animal bites Bruises (...) [2]
In adition, the references do not specify the type of injuries of civilians, we do not know how many of them have just scrapes and bruises or other types of injuries. We can not, therefore, separate numbers but give the total numbers. Our duty is to adjust to the references.
Also, an injured person is an injured, whether medical care is immediate or not.
I adjusted once and I will adjust again to fit the references.
Best regards. --
BallenaBlanca
(Talk)
10:49, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Now it is three days after the referendum and the map is still blank. I think the map can be temporarily removed until reliable data comes out. Esiymbro ( talk) 10:44, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. No county-by-county results have been made available. FOARP ( talk) 12:46, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Impru has repeatedly deleted info about the lost votes, claiming that the estimate represented electors and not actual votes. While I find this plausible, it is not what the sources are saying. I made this very clear and was transparent, by making inlines in the references (which Impru deleted without explanation [ [3]] -- and nowhere in the edit summary was a justification for the deletion of the inline quotes which disputed what they were saying ). Here is what the sources say:
"Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police."
The Independent [2]:
"...total voting figures remain incomplete and provisional because a much larger number, an estimated 770,000,, are either inaccessible or lost after some polling stations were closed and ballot boxes were seized by police."
At Wikipedia we are obligated to state what sources say -- not what we think happened -- and absolutely not to claim in edit summaries, as Impru did, that sources are saying one thing and not another, when there were clearly inlines that show the contrary [ [4]].
There is also another issue here -- Turull claims that because of the police action, turnout was driven down -- obviously the Catalan government isn't neutral here, but this is a plausible claim and must be reported (in an NPOV way of course). Impru simply wipes this from the page with the limp edit summary of "Fixing misleading statement on this in the lead + removing duplicate sources". Look, I'm not some pro-separatist edit warrior -- actually the reason I came to the page just now was to add stuff about the allegations of Russian interference, an issue which is certainly not favorable to the separatists which does not have adequate coverage yet and which I have been gathering sources on -- but while I am willing to assume good faith here at least for now, I find this sort of behavior to be incredibly unconstructive and the opposite of good editing practice. -- Yalens ( talk) 13:04, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Els encarregats de donar els resultats des del Centre Internacional de Premsa, el vicepresident, Oriol Junqueras; el conseller de la Presidència, Jordi Turull, i el conseller d'Exteriors, Raül Romeva, han remarcat contínuament que, tot i que els 2.248.000 vots no suposen 'per se' el 50% del cens, els càlculs dels experts apunten que sense pressió policial i tancament de col·legis s'hauria pogut arribar al 55% de participació. -- Google Translate: "Those in charge of giving the results from the International Press Center, Vice President, Oriol Junqueras; The counselor of the Presidency, Jordi Turull, and the foreign minister, Raül Romeva, have remarked continuously that, although the 2,248,000 votes do not suppose "per se" the 50% of the census, the calculations of the experts suggest that Without police pressure and closing of schools it could have reached 55% participation." (bold mine)
Yalens I think the text is fair enough right now. Agree on your claim about "electors" (in Spain they're called electores, so that would be its translation. I actually think we were meaning the same thing all along; "potential voters" seems a pretty decent compromise). Impru20 ( talk) 18:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
References
90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence, according to preliminary results released by the region's government. The region has 5.3 million voters. Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police.
...total voting figures remain incomplete and provisional because a much larger number, an estimated 770,000,, are either inaccessible or lost after some polling stations were closed and ballot boxes were seized by police.
Hi again. About the demonstrations that are mentioned in this article and in the Operation Anubis one, looking to the articles it seems there were only demonstrarions against the police, but I think we must not ignore the demonstrations there were supporting the CNP and the GC in several cities of Spain (Madrid and Barcelona indeed) when they left their headquarters for going to Catalonia ( La Vanguardia, Murcia, El Mundo about Castellón, Santander) and also on 30 September "for the unity of Spain" ( Diario Levante, El Confidencial about Madrid, with 10,000 people, SER, talking about Barcelona, Alicante).
An actual neutral POV must show the movements in both parts and in this one, it is currently only showing the demonstrarions for the referendum. Asturkian ( talk) 07:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Following the press conference and the journalists’ enquiry as regards the current events in Spain and the parallelism between Catalonia and Kosovo, Albanian and Luxembourgish Foreign Ministers Bushati and Asselborn voiced that any comparison to Crimea and Catalonia is ungrounded. "The decision of the International Court of Justice on Kosovo has closed any further discussion from the standpoint of international law" - Minister Bushati pointed out. On his part, Minister Asselborn underscored that "In Kosovo, there was a war, while in Catalonia there is no war and this is the main difference between these two cases."
http://www.punetejashtme.gov.al/en/press-office/news/bushati-receives-his-luxembourg-s-counterpart-asselborn-in-tirana-2018-may-be-a-very-good-year-for-albania-to-open-negotiations1507031481 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.171.53.113 ( talk) 13:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
FYI, I have added economic reactions about the move of Banco Sabadell and others in the reactions article. I'd like you to help me improving it, thanks. Asturkian ( talk) 13:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC).
The cost of the Spanish police for the Government adds up to 31,7 million euros until the 1st of October. [1]. It it expected that this operations lasts until the 2nd of November minimum. [2]
Why call it that? Needs explanation. 174.17.207.124 ( talk) 08:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This sub-heading is clearly POV, as well as being bad English ("brutalization" refers to becoming brutal). If this refers to the actions of the Spanish riot police (and other authorities) then lets say that. FOARP ( talk) 11:21, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 16:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)"Unofficial Spanish police apologies, not signed by the senior management"
Medium range Spanish police officers recognize that in the action there were police excesses. They affirm that they could have prevented the vote without necessity of evictions. "We present our most heartfelt apologies for the excesses that may have been produced, reiterating that the very essence of the catastrophically determined service entrusted to us inevitably entails such scenes."
Why is this section necessary? If some claims are false, why repeat them? It's pretty common for numerous different stories, claims, exaggerations, etc. to be told during a tumultuous event. It seems like the main purpose of this section is to try to discredit the protesters on the basis of a few questionable claims, which violates WP:DUE/ WP:NPOV. 2601:644:1:B7CB:75C2:683E:B7D3:6409 ( talk) 07:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
falsehoods were used to support the claim of excessive use of force, I would personally much prefer to see outside sources (preferably English speaking ones, the Spanish/Catalan media have been uhh emotional lately, sorry) rather than Wikipedia making this point. Indeed, as far as I could tell, the video that really drew peoples attention (at least my colleagues who talked about it) was the viral one of the Spanish police attacking Catalan firefighters, not any of the ones the section discusses, so the above claim about it being notable because the falsehoods were what buttressed those claims might be not undisputable.-- Yalens ( talk) 00:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC) EDIT : my bad, I pinged you all to nothing as the section was subsumed by Impru -- thanks for that. I had meant to post this earlier but actually entered it much later.-- Yalens ( talk) 01:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
--> IT SHOULD SAY: Only 12 police officers (11 Spanish police and 1 Catalan police) were attended in Catalan public hospitals as well as 1.066 civilians. [4]
Spanish unionist media sprang to life the idea that kids were going to be used as a "human shields" during the Referendum:
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.larazon.es/espana/puigdemont-usara-ninos-como-escudos-humanos-en-los-colegios-KA16344916
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/10/01/utilizacion-ninos-referendum-primero-escudos-humanos-luego-votantes-1374571
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2017-09-19/los-separatistas-usaran-viejos-invalidos-y-ninos-de-pecho-como-escudos-humanos-1276606097/
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.eltitular.es/adoctrinando-los-ninos-escudos-humanos-referendum-1-octubre/
Hello @ Yalens: Thank you for your analysis. In response to your request here are some English speaking sources that establish the relevance of the information:
On the other hand I had not seen the video of the firefighters before now. It seems clear that WP:UNDUE does not apply in this case. Regards. -- Crystallizedcarbon ( talk) 13:00, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 16:58, 6 October 2017 (UTC) Disagree with the idea that "El País" is a Spanish reliable source. "El Pais" used to be a relatively objective newspaper 10 years ago, but not now (as almost all the Spanish and Catalan media). "El Pais" has a clear unionist bias.
Since when was the EU an authority on Spanish law? The EU can state that they agree it is illegal, but they cannot "confirm" it as the only people who can confirm what is illegal or illegal in a matter of Spanish law are the Spanish. I suppose "subsequently the EU stated that they also regard the referendum as illegal" might be more accurate. FOARP ( talk) 18:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree with this, it is evident that is necessary to include for NPOV, but the edit had several irregularities. I have not been able to find where the sources specifically support the added text.
I have made these adjustments, per WP:OR, WP:SYN ("Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.") and WP:CITEKILL.
Please feel free to readd the previous text ("The Spanish government under the guide of Mariano Rajoy has come under international scrutiny over its use of force on civilians to prevent the referendum") if you find verifiable references that specifically support it.
Best regards. --
BallenaBlanca
(Talk)
12:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 (
talk)
22:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC) Other political parties, groups and sub-national goverments
• SCOTLAND: Nicola Sturgeon backs Catalan referendum calls
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41350999
Press coverage
Like in the "falsehood and photomontages" epigraph, Spanish unionist media sprang to life the idea that kids were going to be used as a "human shields" during the Referendum:
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.larazon.es/espana/puigdemont-usara-ninos-como-escudos-humanos-en-los-colegios-KA16344916
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/10/01/utilizacion-ninos-referendum-primero-escudos-humanos-luego-votantes-1374571
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2017-09-19/los-separatistas-usaran-viejos-invalidos-y-ninos-de-pecho-como-escudos-humanos-1276606097/
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.eltitular.es/adoctrinando-los-ninos-escudos-humanos-referendum-1-octubre/
§The cost of the operation for the Spanish government adds up to 31.7 million euros until the 1st of October. [5]. The operation will last until the 2nd of November minimum. [6]
Reference 6:
It is flaw, partial and biased:
• An electronic database system was used. Spanish police could hack it for a couple of hours, but it existed
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/politica/20171001/govern-cens-electoral-universal-6323219)
•
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/05/europe/catalonia-referendum-covert-operation/index.html — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Edgarmm81 (
talk •
contribs)
16:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• International observers: “We saw numerous and repeated violations of civil and human rights”
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/international-observers-we-saw-numerous-and-repeated-violations-of-civil-and-human-rights).
It is ironic that the Spanish institutions actively boycotted the referendum and then argued that the referendum did not have guarantees.
It seems clear to me that the figures from the Spanish Interior Ministry for injured policemen changed dramatically from the tens on the 1st to the hundreds on the 2nd, apparently because their criteria for inclusion changed (including also bruises and not just interactions with the emergency services, like the figures for the Catalan civilians). I have tried to put in sentences about this but have been removed. They could have probably been better worded. How could it be better worded? Munci ( talk) 14:30, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The whole paragraph beginning "Catalan independentists spread through the social networks..." is unencyclopaedic. Social media abounds with fake news, photoshopped pictures etc. on every conceivable topic. That's hardly a revelation. Unless it can be shown that the images had a significant impact on reporting by news media, the reaction of foreign governments, or something similar, it's a non-story. It looks like just another attempt to get anti-independentist bias into the article through the back door. Scolaire ( talk) 12:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The network of social media profiles that helped propel Donald Trump to the US presidency, saw Brexit win through in Britain, and got extremist parties into power in France and Germany have successfully completed their first foray into southern Europe. From this Sunday, with the use of real and fake [emphasis added by Yalens] images and interpretations in line with the international views that prevail in Russia, the Catalan crisis has become a crisis of European democracy in ultra-nationalist and anti-globalization circles on the internet. According to tools from the national security advocacy group Alliance for Securing Democracy, the referendum has become the most-commented-on issue by these profiles... Among the highlighted topics in the tweets from English-speaking pro-Russian accounts were not only words like “Catalonia” and “Catalan,” but also “Franco” and “Francoism.”
Several anonymous accounts shared a video on Twitter of police officers with riot gear hitting a defenseless young man, captioned “Spanish police attack Catalan voter.” The posts received thousands of retweets[emphasis mine] within hours. But in reality, the incident took place on November 14, 2012. The photo of the injured boy was shared alongside real photos of people who were wounded yesterday. Photos of police during a mining disturbance in July were also passed off as from the day of the referendum.
This sentence: "With the aim of magnifying the intervention of the police, the independentists spread through the social networks images of civilians injured in other events of five years ago and at least there was two reports of injuries that resulted to be false." is followed by a reference that doesn't corroborate it. 1. The reference mentions one case where a woman first claimed her "fingers were broken one by one", while in fact she was "just" thrown on the floor and dragged down the stairs (as clearly seen in the video) 2. In the reference there is no mention whatsoever of the "images of civilians injured in other events of five years ago" This is not only a Point of View issue, it is a direct forgery. (edit: Wow! That was quick!) Izitpajn ( talk) 07:42, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 00:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)Disagree with the above: the 70 year old man is receiving a CPR and, although the Spanish police is helping, the crowd is calling them "Asesinos" ("killers"). At the end of the video, another charge is started in the area. [7]
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 11:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC) Edgarmm81 ( talk) 00:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC) Wikipedia, please be careful with the propaganda and anti-propaganda. Fake news have been created and widely distributed through unionist Spanish media (i.e.: Antena3, El Mundo, El Pais, etc), but Catalan people do not recognize them (except the case of the girl who said her fingers were broken and who retracted the following day). It is anti-propaganda in order to discredit the nearly 900 injured people who had to be checked in public hospitals (and there is an official record of those visits). I am really concerned about the fact that Wikipedia got fooled so easily!
I think the artilcle should mention that despite of isolated cases, the resistance was done in the peacefulest manner, applauding policeman that did not want to push too hard (especially regional one), and considering the streets were full of independentists and outnumbered in 1:10 the constitutionalists according to the results (and due to the call for non-voting from the unionist parties) there were memorable scenes of democratic fairness like: http://www.ara.cat/politica/Marcel-Ezquerra_0_1880212090.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.111.111 ( talk) 01:01, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 22:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)The Catalan Referendum has been the most significant "legality vs legitimacy" case in the European recent History.
Please, note that:
• Spanish Constitution accepts the Self-determination right by abiding by the UN Charter's norms and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In its art. 10.2, the Spanish Constitution states "The principles relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognised by the Constitution shall be interpreted in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain" [8] However, the conservative party Partido Popular, which is ruling Spain, keeps a passive attitude and says self-determination to be out of the law. • There is no real separation of powers in Spain. The 12 Constitutional Court members are appointed as follows: 4 members by the Spanish Parliament with a 3/5 majority (unionist hold over 70% of the Parliament); 4 members by the Senate with a 3/5 majority (Unonists hold 80% of the Senate); 2 by the Government (Partido Popular, unionist), and just 2 by the judge's body. [9] • 32 Catalan laws crossed, canceled or in 'standby' by the Constitutional Court in 2016 [10] • Nationalist parties leave the Senate in protest for the renewal of the Constitutional [11] • The Constitutional Court chairman says the Constitutional Court cannot sort out the "Catalan issue" and calls for political dialogue [12] • The Constitutional Court broke the constitutional pact by disavowing the pact between parliaments and ignoring the referendum (Javier Perez Royo, Spanish Constitutional Law Professor at the University of Seville). [13] • Unionist parties hold the 71.4% of the Spanish Parliament ((134+84+32)/350) but only 38,5% of the Catalan Parliament ((11+25+16)/135). Minority unionist parties in Catalonia used their power in Madrid to veto the referendum. • Rajoy keeps responding it is "impossible" to negotiate a referendum [14] • International personalities signed the "Let Catalans Vote" manifesto, including 3 Nobel Peace Prizes. For instance: Desmond Tutu, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Dario Fo, Rigoberta Menchú, Ahmed Galai, Mirta Baravalle, Noam Chomsky, Angela Davis, Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht, Yoko Ono or Viggo Mortensen [15] • Switzerland, Estonia, Ireland and The House of Lords(through the "All-Party Parliamentary Group on Catalonia") requested a political solution: [16] and [17] • After 6 year-in-a-row rallies in Catalonia, with over 1 million people (20% population) claiming for the independence in each one, the Spanish government keeps refusing to take any action to sort out the situation. • Over 76% of Catalans support a referendum [18] • The referendum holds the support of 712 of 948 municipalities of Catalonia. [19] • Mr Puigdemont, Junqueras and Ms Colau 's letter to Mr Rajoy and the King Felipe VI requesting a legal solution for the referendum [20] • Barcelona mayor Ada Colau send a letter to 700 mayors to protect the Catalans rights [21] • Spain’s attempt to block Catalonia’s referendum is a violation of our basic rights [22] • Catalan leader calls for mediation with Spain over independence after the Referendum [23] • According to the art. 56 of the Spanish Constitution: "The King is the Head of State, symbol of its unity and permanence, arbitrates and moderates the regular functioning of institutions", but the King Felipe VI did not act as he should have. Catalan president accused Spanish king of being government mouthpiece [24] • European values, civil rights, freedom of speech, freedom of information and freedom of assembly are being violated by Spain’s central government, which has sent the police to search newspapers, printing companies and private mail services; ban political meetings; seize referendum material; and threaten to imprison democratically elected politicians [25] • Spain must guarantee respect for fundamental rights in its response to the Catalan referendum [26]
But the own all the law and the media (a.k.a the official voice). How are we gonna prove the evident to the world if our only representative forces are local and obviously positioned for the cause? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.111.111 ( talk) 23:55, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
§The final medical report states there were 1.066 civilian attended in Catalan hospitals as well as 12 policemen (including 1 catalan police officer). [1]. Statistically, 7 of them were cathegorised as "severe" and 23 og them were over 79years old, as well as 2 children under 11.
About this edit: (890 civilians and 39 agents received medical treatment (scrapes and bruises are not injuries...))
Of course scrapes and bruises are injuries. Let's see the medical definition: An injury is damage to your body. It is a general term that refers to harm caused by accidents, falls, hits, weapons, and more. (...) Wounds are injuries that break the skin or other body tissues. They include cuts, scrapes, scratches, and punctured skin. (...) Other common types of injuries include Animal bites Bruises (...) [2]
In adition, the references do not specify the type of injuries of civilians, we do not know how many of them have just scrapes and bruises or other types of injuries. We can not, therefore, separate numbers but give the total numbers. Our duty is to adjust to the references.
Also, an injured person is an injured, whether medical care is immediate or not.
I adjusted once and I will adjust again to fit the references.
Best regards. --
BallenaBlanca
(Talk)
10:49, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Now it is three days after the referendum and the map is still blank. I think the map can be temporarily removed until reliable data comes out. Esiymbro ( talk) 10:44, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. No county-by-county results have been made available. FOARP ( talk) 12:46, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Impru has repeatedly deleted info about the lost votes, claiming that the estimate represented electors and not actual votes. While I find this plausible, it is not what the sources are saying. I made this very clear and was transparent, by making inlines in the references (which Impru deleted without explanation [ [3]] -- and nowhere in the edit summary was a justification for the deletion of the inline quotes which disputed what they were saying ). Here is what the sources say:
"Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police."
The Independent [2]:
"...total voting figures remain incomplete and provisional because a much larger number, an estimated 770,000,, are either inaccessible or lost after some polling stations were closed and ballot boxes were seized by police."
At Wikipedia we are obligated to state what sources say -- not what we think happened -- and absolutely not to claim in edit summaries, as Impru did, that sources are saying one thing and not another, when there were clearly inlines that show the contrary [ [4]].
There is also another issue here -- Turull claims that because of the police action, turnout was driven down -- obviously the Catalan government isn't neutral here, but this is a plausible claim and must be reported (in an NPOV way of course). Impru simply wipes this from the page with the limp edit summary of "Fixing misleading statement on this in the lead + removing duplicate sources". Look, I'm not some pro-separatist edit warrior -- actually the reason I came to the page just now was to add stuff about the allegations of Russian interference, an issue which is certainly not favorable to the separatists which does not have adequate coverage yet and which I have been gathering sources on -- but while I am willing to assume good faith here at least for now, I find this sort of behavior to be incredibly unconstructive and the opposite of good editing practice. -- Yalens ( talk) 13:04, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Els encarregats de donar els resultats des del Centre Internacional de Premsa, el vicepresident, Oriol Junqueras; el conseller de la Presidència, Jordi Turull, i el conseller d'Exteriors, Raül Romeva, han remarcat contínuament que, tot i que els 2.248.000 vots no suposen 'per se' el 50% del cens, els càlculs dels experts apunten que sense pressió policial i tancament de col·legis s'hauria pogut arribar al 55% de participació. -- Google Translate: "Those in charge of giving the results from the International Press Center, Vice President, Oriol Junqueras; The counselor of the Presidency, Jordi Turull, and the foreign minister, Raül Romeva, have remarked continuously that, although the 2,248,000 votes do not suppose "per se" the 50% of the census, the calculations of the experts suggest that Without police pressure and closing of schools it could have reached 55% participation." (bold mine)
Yalens I think the text is fair enough right now. Agree on your claim about "electors" (in Spain they're called electores, so that would be its translation. I actually think we were meaning the same thing all along; "potential voters" seems a pretty decent compromise). Impru20 ( talk) 18:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
References
90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence, according to preliminary results released by the region's government. The region has 5.3 million voters. Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police.
...total voting figures remain incomplete and provisional because a much larger number, an estimated 770,000,, are either inaccessible or lost after some polling stations were closed and ballot boxes were seized by police.
Hi again. About the demonstrations that are mentioned in this article and in the Operation Anubis one, looking to the articles it seems there were only demonstrarions against the police, but I think we must not ignore the demonstrations there were supporting the CNP and the GC in several cities of Spain (Madrid and Barcelona indeed) when they left their headquarters for going to Catalonia ( La Vanguardia, Murcia, El Mundo about Castellón, Santander) and also on 30 September "for the unity of Spain" ( Diario Levante, El Confidencial about Madrid, with 10,000 people, SER, talking about Barcelona, Alicante).
An actual neutral POV must show the movements in both parts and in this one, it is currently only showing the demonstrarions for the referendum. Asturkian ( talk) 07:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Following the press conference and the journalists’ enquiry as regards the current events in Spain and the parallelism between Catalonia and Kosovo, Albanian and Luxembourgish Foreign Ministers Bushati and Asselborn voiced that any comparison to Crimea and Catalonia is ungrounded. "The decision of the International Court of Justice on Kosovo has closed any further discussion from the standpoint of international law" - Minister Bushati pointed out. On his part, Minister Asselborn underscored that "In Kosovo, there was a war, while in Catalonia there is no war and this is the main difference between these two cases."
http://www.punetejashtme.gov.al/en/press-office/news/bushati-receives-his-luxembourg-s-counterpart-asselborn-in-tirana-2018-may-be-a-very-good-year-for-albania-to-open-negotiations1507031481 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.171.53.113 ( talk) 13:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
FYI, I have added economic reactions about the move of Banco Sabadell and others in the reactions article. I'd like you to help me improving it, thanks. Asturkian ( talk) 13:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC).
The cost of the Spanish police for the Government adds up to 31,7 million euros until the 1st of October. [1]. It it expected that this operations lasts until the 2nd of November minimum. [2]
Why call it that? Needs explanation. 174.17.207.124 ( talk) 08:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This sub-heading is clearly POV, as well as being bad English ("brutalization" refers to becoming brutal). If this refers to the actions of the Spanish riot police (and other authorities) then lets say that. FOARP ( talk) 11:21, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 16:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)"Unofficial Spanish police apologies, not signed by the senior management"
Medium range Spanish police officers recognize that in the action there were police excesses. They affirm that they could have prevented the vote without necessity of evictions. "We present our most heartfelt apologies for the excesses that may have been produced, reiterating that the very essence of the catastrophically determined service entrusted to us inevitably entails such scenes."
Why is this section necessary? If some claims are false, why repeat them? It's pretty common for numerous different stories, claims, exaggerations, etc. to be told during a tumultuous event. It seems like the main purpose of this section is to try to discredit the protesters on the basis of a few questionable claims, which violates WP:DUE/ WP:NPOV. 2601:644:1:B7CB:75C2:683E:B7D3:6409 ( talk) 07:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
falsehoods were used to support the claim of excessive use of force, I would personally much prefer to see outside sources (preferably English speaking ones, the Spanish/Catalan media have been uhh emotional lately, sorry) rather than Wikipedia making this point. Indeed, as far as I could tell, the video that really drew peoples attention (at least my colleagues who talked about it) was the viral one of the Spanish police attacking Catalan firefighters, not any of the ones the section discusses, so the above claim about it being notable because the falsehoods were what buttressed those claims might be not undisputable.-- Yalens ( talk) 00:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC) EDIT : my bad, I pinged you all to nothing as the section was subsumed by Impru -- thanks for that. I had meant to post this earlier but actually entered it much later.-- Yalens ( talk) 01:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
--> IT SHOULD SAY: Only 12 police officers (11 Spanish police and 1 Catalan police) were attended in Catalan public hospitals as well as 1.066 civilians. [4]
Spanish unionist media sprang to life the idea that kids were going to be used as a "human shields" during the Referendum:
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http://www.larazon.es/espana/puigdemont-usara-ninos-como-escudos-humanos-en-los-colegios-KA16344916
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https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/10/01/utilizacion-ninos-referendum-primero-escudos-humanos-luego-votantes-1374571
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
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http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2017-09-19/los-separatistas-usaran-viejos-invalidos-y-ninos-de-pecho-como-escudos-humanos-1276606097/
Cite error: There are <ref>
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http://www.eltitular.es/adoctrinando-los-ninos-escudos-humanos-referendum-1-octubre/
Hello @ Yalens: Thank you for your analysis. In response to your request here are some English speaking sources that establish the relevance of the information:
On the other hand I had not seen the video of the firefighters before now. It seems clear that WP:UNDUE does not apply in this case. Regards. -- Crystallizedcarbon ( talk) 13:00, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 16:58, 6 October 2017 (UTC) Disagree with the idea that "El País" is a Spanish reliable source. "El Pais" used to be a relatively objective newspaper 10 years ago, but not now (as almost all the Spanish and Catalan media). "El Pais" has a clear unionist bias.
Since when was the EU an authority on Spanish law? The EU can state that they agree it is illegal, but they cannot "confirm" it as the only people who can confirm what is illegal or illegal in a matter of Spanish law are the Spanish. I suppose "subsequently the EU stated that they also regard the referendum as illegal" might be more accurate. FOARP ( talk) 18:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree with this, it is evident that is necessary to include for NPOV, but the edit had several irregularities. I have not been able to find where the sources specifically support the added text.
I have made these adjustments, per WP:OR, WP:SYN ("Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.") and WP:CITEKILL.
Please feel free to readd the previous text ("The Spanish government under the guide of Mariano Rajoy has come under international scrutiny over its use of force on civilians to prevent the referendum") if you find verifiable references that specifically support it.
Best regards. --
BallenaBlanca
(Talk)
12:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 (
talk)
22:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC) Other political parties, groups and sub-national goverments
• SCOTLAND: Nicola Sturgeon backs Catalan referendum calls
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41350999
Press coverage
Like in the "falsehood and photomontages" epigraph, Spanish unionist media sprang to life the idea that kids were going to be used as a "human shields" during the Referendum:
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http://www.larazon.es/espana/puigdemont-usara-ninos-como-escudos-humanos-en-los-colegios-KA16344916
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
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https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/10/01/utilizacion-ninos-referendum-primero-escudos-humanos-luego-votantes-1374571
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
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http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2017-09-19/los-separatistas-usaran-viejos-invalidos-y-ninos-de-pecho-como-escudos-humanos-1276606097/
Cite error: There are <ref>
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http://www.eltitular.es/adoctrinando-los-ninos-escudos-humanos-referendum-1-octubre/
§The cost of the operation for the Spanish government adds up to 31.7 million euros until the 1st of October. [5]. The operation will last until the 2nd of November minimum. [6]
Reference 6:
It is flaw, partial and biased:
• An electronic database system was used. Spanish police could hack it for a couple of hours, but it existed
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http://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/politica/20171001/govern-cens-electoral-universal-6323219)
•
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/05/europe/catalonia-referendum-covert-operation/index.html — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Edgarmm81 (
talk •
contribs)
16:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• International observers: “We saw numerous and repeated violations of civil and human rights”
Cite error: There are <ref>
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http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/international-observers-we-saw-numerous-and-repeated-violations-of-civil-and-human-rights).
It is ironic that the Spanish institutions actively boycotted the referendum and then argued that the referendum did not have guarantees.
It seems clear to me that the figures from the Spanish Interior Ministry for injured policemen changed dramatically from the tens on the 1st to the hundreds on the 2nd, apparently because their criteria for inclusion changed (including also bruises and not just interactions with the emergency services, like the figures for the Catalan civilians). I have tried to put in sentences about this but have been removed. They could have probably been better worded. How could it be better worded? Munci ( talk) 14:30, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The whole paragraph beginning "Catalan independentists spread through the social networks..." is unencyclopaedic. Social media abounds with fake news, photoshopped pictures etc. on every conceivable topic. That's hardly a revelation. Unless it can be shown that the images had a significant impact on reporting by news media, the reaction of foreign governments, or something similar, it's a non-story. It looks like just another attempt to get anti-independentist bias into the article through the back door. Scolaire ( talk) 12:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The network of social media profiles that helped propel Donald Trump to the US presidency, saw Brexit win through in Britain, and got extremist parties into power in France and Germany have successfully completed their first foray into southern Europe. From this Sunday, with the use of real and fake [emphasis added by Yalens] images and interpretations in line with the international views that prevail in Russia, the Catalan crisis has become a crisis of European democracy in ultra-nationalist and anti-globalization circles on the internet. According to tools from the national security advocacy group Alliance for Securing Democracy, the referendum has become the most-commented-on issue by these profiles... Among the highlighted topics in the tweets from English-speaking pro-Russian accounts were not only words like “Catalonia” and “Catalan,” but also “Franco” and “Francoism.”
Several anonymous accounts shared a video on Twitter of police officers with riot gear hitting a defenseless young man, captioned “Spanish police attack Catalan voter.” The posts received thousands of retweets[emphasis mine] within hours. But in reality, the incident took place on November 14, 2012. The photo of the injured boy was shared alongside real photos of people who were wounded yesterday. Photos of police during a mining disturbance in July were also passed off as from the day of the referendum.
This sentence: "With the aim of magnifying the intervention of the police, the independentists spread through the social networks images of civilians injured in other events of five years ago and at least there was two reports of injuries that resulted to be false." is followed by a reference that doesn't corroborate it. 1. The reference mentions one case where a woman first claimed her "fingers were broken one by one", while in fact she was "just" thrown on the floor and dragged down the stairs (as clearly seen in the video) 2. In the reference there is no mention whatsoever of the "images of civilians injured in other events of five years ago" This is not only a Point of View issue, it is a direct forgery. (edit: Wow! That was quick!) Izitpajn ( talk) 07:42, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 00:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)Disagree with the above: the 70 year old man is receiving a CPR and, although the Spanish police is helping, the crowd is calling them "Asesinos" ("killers"). At the end of the video, another charge is started in the area. [7]
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 11:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC) Edgarmm81 ( talk) 00:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC) Wikipedia, please be careful with the propaganda and anti-propaganda. Fake news have been created and widely distributed through unionist Spanish media (i.e.: Antena3, El Mundo, El Pais, etc), but Catalan people do not recognize them (except the case of the girl who said her fingers were broken and who retracted the following day). It is anti-propaganda in order to discredit the nearly 900 injured people who had to be checked in public hospitals (and there is an official record of those visits). I am really concerned about the fact that Wikipedia got fooled so easily!
I think the artilcle should mention that despite of isolated cases, the resistance was done in the peacefulest manner, applauding policeman that did not want to push too hard (especially regional one), and considering the streets were full of independentists and outnumbered in 1:10 the constitutionalists according to the results (and due to the call for non-voting from the unionist parties) there were memorable scenes of democratic fairness like: http://www.ara.cat/politica/Marcel-Ezquerra_0_1880212090.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.111.111 ( talk) 01:01, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Edgarmm81 ( talk) 22:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)The Catalan Referendum has been the most significant "legality vs legitimacy" case in the European recent History.
Please, note that:
• Spanish Constitution accepts the Self-determination right by abiding by the UN Charter's norms and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In its art. 10.2, the Spanish Constitution states "The principles relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognised by the Constitution shall be interpreted in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain" [8] However, the conservative party Partido Popular, which is ruling Spain, keeps a passive attitude and says self-determination to be out of the law. • There is no real separation of powers in Spain. The 12 Constitutional Court members are appointed as follows: 4 members by the Spanish Parliament with a 3/5 majority (unionist hold over 70% of the Parliament); 4 members by the Senate with a 3/5 majority (Unonists hold 80% of the Senate); 2 by the Government (Partido Popular, unionist), and just 2 by the judge's body. [9] • 32 Catalan laws crossed, canceled or in 'standby' by the Constitutional Court in 2016 [10] • Nationalist parties leave the Senate in protest for the renewal of the Constitutional [11] • The Constitutional Court chairman says the Constitutional Court cannot sort out the "Catalan issue" and calls for political dialogue [12] • The Constitutional Court broke the constitutional pact by disavowing the pact between parliaments and ignoring the referendum (Javier Perez Royo, Spanish Constitutional Law Professor at the University of Seville). [13] • Unionist parties hold the 71.4% of the Spanish Parliament ((134+84+32)/350) but only 38,5% of the Catalan Parliament ((11+25+16)/135). Minority unionist parties in Catalonia used their power in Madrid to veto the referendum. • Rajoy keeps responding it is "impossible" to negotiate a referendum [14] • International personalities signed the "Let Catalans Vote" manifesto, including 3 Nobel Peace Prizes. For instance: Desmond Tutu, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Dario Fo, Rigoberta Menchú, Ahmed Galai, Mirta Baravalle, Noam Chomsky, Angela Davis, Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht, Yoko Ono or Viggo Mortensen [15] • Switzerland, Estonia, Ireland and The House of Lords(through the "All-Party Parliamentary Group on Catalonia") requested a political solution: [16] and [17] • After 6 year-in-a-row rallies in Catalonia, with over 1 million people (20% population) claiming for the independence in each one, the Spanish government keeps refusing to take any action to sort out the situation. • Over 76% of Catalans support a referendum [18] • The referendum holds the support of 712 of 948 municipalities of Catalonia. [19] • Mr Puigdemont, Junqueras and Ms Colau 's letter to Mr Rajoy and the King Felipe VI requesting a legal solution for the referendum [20] • Barcelona mayor Ada Colau send a letter to 700 mayors to protect the Catalans rights [21] • Spain’s attempt to block Catalonia’s referendum is a violation of our basic rights [22] • Catalan leader calls for mediation with Spain over independence after the Referendum [23] • According to the art. 56 of the Spanish Constitution: "The King is the Head of State, symbol of its unity and permanence, arbitrates and moderates the regular functioning of institutions", but the King Felipe VI did not act as he should have. Catalan president accused Spanish king of being government mouthpiece [24] • European values, civil rights, freedom of speech, freedom of information and freedom of assembly are being violated by Spain’s central government, which has sent the police to search newspapers, printing companies and private mail services; ban political meetings; seize referendum material; and threaten to imprison democratically elected politicians [25] • Spain must guarantee respect for fundamental rights in its response to the Catalan referendum [26]
But the own all the law and the media (a.k.a the official voice). How are we gonna prove the evident to the world if our only representative forces are local and obviously positioned for the cause? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.77.111.111 ( talk) 23:55, 8 October 2017 (UTC)