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So, I think the current calendar table is not very good. First of all, there's no reason to have one event in two rows. The empty flagicon template is also a bit odd. Also the surface shouldn't be bolded. Here's my version: (all the info may not be correct yet!)
Yes, it includes the flags of Sardinia, Catalonia and Wales (all autonomous places) to get a better idea where the rally is actually located.
For me, its ok. But We should wait 'till the final supporting calendar its defined. MNSZ ( talk) 02:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Because you didn't have a consensus for a change. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 04:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Round | Rally name | Base | Surface | Dates |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 |
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Valence, Rhône-Alpes | Asphalt | 16–19 January |
2 |
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Hagfors, Värmland | Snow | 7–10 February |
3 |
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León, Guanajuato | Gravel | 8–10 March |
4 |
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Faro, Algarve | Gravel | 10–12 April |
5 |
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Villa Carlos Paz, Córdoba | Gravel | 3–5 May |
6 |
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Loutraki, Corinthia | Gravel | 31 May–2 June |
7 |
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Olbia, Gallura | Gravel | 21–23 June |
8 |
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Jyväskylä, Keski-Suomi | Gravel | 2–4 August |
9 |
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Trier, Rhineland-Palatinate | Asphalt | 23–25 August |
10 |
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Coffs Harbour, New South Wales | Gravel | 13–15 September |
11 |
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Strasbourg, Alsace | Asphalt | 4–6 October |
12 |
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Salou, Tarragona | Mixed (Asphalt, gravel) | 25–27 October |
13 |
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Cardiff, South Glamorgan | Gravel | 15–17 November |
I don't see anything wrong with the current table. Your proposed change is purely cosmetic. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 22:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm more open to this older design of the calendar table now. The current version was introdced because I felt that the support categories tended to dominate the table, and I had to find a way to condense them down to a narrow column. Stacking them on top of one another and shaping the rest of the calendar around it worked best, but now that the support categories have been re-structured and drivers are free to choose which events they compete in, it's no longer necessary.
However, if we do re-introduce it, we would have to find the appropriate flag icons for the rally bases. For instance, Coffs Harbous should have the flag of New South Wales, not the flag of Australia. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 23:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Round | Rally name | Base | Surface | Dates |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 |
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Mixed | 16–19 January |
2 |
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Snow | 7–10 February |
3 |
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Gravel | 8–10 March |
4 |
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Faro, Algarve | Gravel | 10–12 April |
5 |
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Gravel | 3–5 May |
6 |
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Loutraki, Corinthia | Gravel | 31 May–2 June |
7 |
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Gravel | 21–23 June |
8 |
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Jyväskylä, Keski-Suomi | Gravel | 2–4 August |
9 |
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Asphalt | 23–25 August |
10 |
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Gravel | 13–15 September |
11 |
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Asphalt | 4–6 October |
12 |
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Mixed | 25–27 October |
13 |
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Gravel | 15–17 November |
In the aftermath of Ford's withdrawal from the WRC, someone insists on removing Ott Tanak from the M-Sport entry on the driver table. I have explained to this person several times that they need sources to support this, and yet they have repeatedly ignored me.
The source supplied makes it clear that Tanak has a contract to drive for M-Sport in 2013. In the absence of any source contradicting this, this is what we have to include in the article. Please do not remove it until you can find an alternate source.
To the person who is removing this content from the article, if you continue to do so despite being told that you need sources, it will be considered vandalism and your edits will be reverted on sight. You may even be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 21:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
the words in bold prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that Mikkelsen is not confirmed for next season. Also this is a more reliable third-party source reporting on an interview with the VW Motorsport boss and is a more recent story than that currently on the page. http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/capito-dont-expect-too-much-too-soon/?fid=17803 and the new source... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104064/
http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/wilson-you-can-win-with-kids/?fid=17775
If you wanted me to reference the blanks you should've said, it sounded like you were saying I hadn't supplied any. By the way these are the exact same sources as before, just with one additional one. I've said before that I just want this to be accurate and have even agreed with a lot of stuff you have done on here in the past mate. As for unreliable sources what is wrong with Autosport and WRC? I find it hard to see how you can get more reliable than that. Where would you like me to add the source for Mikkelsen as there is not a TBA row? If you feel I have been aggressive towards you please feel free to report me to Wikipedia. For the record, I am a motoring and motorsport journalist specialising in rallying which is my passion, this is how I am so up to date on what is happening. Hopefully this is all sorted now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
I have provided sources and have always provided sources to you personally, I was unaware you had to reference blanks which is the only reason they were not added to this page. If you have a look at our talk page you will see I agreed with you about the PaddockTalk and Saudi sources which were in reference to a totally unrelated edit to the one this talk page is in regards to so I do not see why you felt the need to mention that here. I agreed to wait until they are published by more mainstream authors. I have never made any references based on my profession and have always supplied at least one online article to you personally to back up my claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Thierry Neuville
Hmm ok I see you're point. Let's wait and see what happens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Neuville has now been confirmed at M-Sport as expected. Grant1990 ( talk) 17:35, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't be better to divide the Teams and Drivers entries to show the different rules in witch they apply?
- Manufacture Teams - WRC Teams - Mayor Entries not registered to score point.
What do you think? MNSZ ( talk) 01:52, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Manufacturer entries | |||
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Constructor | Team | Drivers | Co-drivers |
Citroën ( Citroën DS3 WRC) |
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Volkswagen ( Volkswagen Polo R WRC) |
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WRC Teams Entries | |||
Citroën ( Citroën DS3 WRC) |
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Ford ( Ford Fiesta RS WRC) |
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Major entries not registered to score manufacturers points | |||
Citroën ( Citroën DS3 WRC) |
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Hyundai ( Hyundai i20 WRC) |
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Mini ( Mini John Cooper Works WRC) |
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When there are more teams, would be looking better.
MNSZ (
talk)
14:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Team | Constructor | Car | Tyre | No. | Driver | Co-driver | Rounds |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Manufacturer Teams | |||||||
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Citroën | Citroën DS3 WRC | M | 2 |
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0 |
3 |
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0 | ||||
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Volkswagen | Volkswagen Polo R WRC | M | 4 |
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0 |
5 |
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0 | ||||
WRC Teams | |||||||
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Ford | Ford Fiesta RS WRC | M | 6 |
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0 |
7 | ![]() |
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0 | ||||
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Citroën | Citroën DS3 WRC | M | 8 |
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0 |
Constructor | Car | Team | Tyre | Driver | Co-driver | Rounds |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Citroën | Citroën DS3 WRC |
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M |
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0 |
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0 | ||||
Ford | Ford Fiesta RS WRC |
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M |
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0 |
Very good idea in my opinion. It looks a lot clearer this way (first example) and is more informative. It would be good to have the number back but it does get awkward when they constantly change so maybe just have numbers displayed for the ones that are set for the season (manufacturer & WRC Team entries)?
I'm thinking the second option would be good, I've never really been keen on seeing them sorted by car. Another alternative could be to use the layout of the second one but have them in championship order and not split by the type of team. What do people want to go with then? Grant1990 ( talk) 10:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe that the team and driver table should list Qatar M-Sport as being a Qatari team. Although M-Sport is a British team, the presence of Qatar as title sponsor is significant. In the past, Nasser Al-Attiyah's Qatar-backed teams have competed under a Qatari licence, even though they have been operated by French team PH Sport (who also ran Neuville's Citroen Junior car in 2012). Someone raised the point that Ford was not run under the Abu Dhabi flag when they were known as Ford Abu Dhabi a few years ago, but that was not the same team as M-Sport (even if M-Sport were running the cars; the FIA recognised them as separate teams), and since Abu Dhabi is not in Qatar and the money is not coming from the same place, the nature of the deal is inherently different. Furthermore, with Ford pulling its factory backing and Qatar having purchased the naming rights sponsorship to the team, there is more evidence that the team will run as a Qatari team than as a british one.
Therefore, I propose that Qatar M-Sport be listed under a Qatari flag given the historical precedent of Qatar World Rally Teams operating under a Qatari flag, at least until such time as an entry list is produced. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 06:23, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
You're correct, Ford is not a country but it's a sponsorship deal which is all this is with Qatar. Unless you have a source article to back up your claim it is speculation. Now it's your turn to find an article to back up your points! You have to play by your own rules mate. No article = speculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 13:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I won't say it ;) Grant1990 ( talk) 13:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
You are correct, it is not a battleground. I will however point out a) the lack of evidence to support a certain flag (that means you adding the Qatari flag) and b) the historical precedent of the M-Sport team competing under the British flag whatever the size, nature or nationality of their sponsor, having the British flag before the entry list was announced should've been the right way forward. I really don't see how you can demand sources from everyone else then not use them to back up your own edits especially as so many of them have turned out the be wide of the mark. We have both had our say now, the entry list has been released and the error on the page corrected so hopefully this is where we shall leave this. Grant1990 ( talk) 17:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Seriously what is going on here!? Who removed my update of Loeb's number? I supplied a credible source, here it is again http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/four-rounds-for-number-one-loeb/?fid=18055 and here is the quote incase you're incapable of reading "They [Loeb & Elena] will carry the number one on their Citroen DS3 WRC". This is the OFFICIAL WRC website, you can't get more credible than that. Furthermore, the champion always carries the number one in his defence year. Why was this removed? If things don't improve here I will take the matter up with Wiki Moderators! Sorry for the people that do update this page responsibly but this is getting ridiculous now! Grant1990 ( talk) 23:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
There's a reason for this, Grant, and it's not a question of a source's crediblity — generally, we don't put numbers into the table until all cars have been assigned numbers. This is something that happens at pretty much every single motorsport page on Wikipedia. Take the 2013 Formula One season page, for instance: the FIA has published a provisional entry list that includes some numbers, but only about half the grid has them. The editors there decided to wait until all of the cars had been assigned a number before adding them in - and we did the same thing on the 2012 World Rally Championship seson page. We waited until the entry list for Monte Carlo had been published before adding those numbers in (they were later removed from the table because as the season went on and drivers started using multiple numbers, it ended up making for a complex and unsightly table). The only exception to this generally takes place when teams and drivers join the championship after the first entry list has been published (in this case, Andreas Mikkelsen).
Since you're relatively new to Wikipedia, you should know that Wikipedia is not a race. Just because something happens, it's not automatically notable enough to be edited in. Knowing when to add content straight away and when to wait is an important skill to have. For instance, we know that Loeb will be #1 when he competes - but is it so critical to understanding the article that it has to be added in before any entry lists are published? The fact that Loeb will compete is the important point here; the number he uses is irrelevant. It's certainly notable enough for inclusion, but only once every single car entered in Monte Carlo has a number of its own (and, for future reference, numbers don't need to be referenced - unless that driver is changing from a number he always uses to something else, like in NASCAR). We can, of course, discuss changing the trend for this page if you think there is a strong enough case for Loeb's number to be included before any other numbers are published, but you may also want to consider bringing the matter up at WikiProject Motosport.
Also, it's my fault that that numbers column appeared. I was expecting an entry list for Monte Carlo sooner rather than later. I must have misread my source that told me entries closed on the 14th as meaning entries would be published on the 14th. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 06:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
It's probably best that the column has been removed going by that then and like you said, bring it back when the first entry list is out. I added Loeb's number because I had a source confirming it, and it is a foregone conclusion, the champion carries number 1 regardless of how many rounds he competes and only the champion can use it. Also under the regulations of the WRC the lead drivers of the manufacturer teams have a set number for the season unless they change teams, which is another reason I felt it safe to add Loeb's number before the first entry list was announced.
I appologise for losing it a bit with my previous post but I was struggling to see what you wanted from me as I provided a credible source. We are both obviously very passionate about the WRC and want this page to be accurate so what do you say we discuss any changes edits here before just removing/undoing them as long as they have been added in good faith and with a solid reference? I have been very busy this month so have not been able to respond to talk page posts as quickly as usual but I will have more time now so I am confident this method will work if you are willing to go with it. Let me know what you think. Grant1990 ( talk) 17:47, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Let's make sure it happens then. Just a minor point, I think we have the name of the second Citroen team slightly wrong. According to Citroen Racing on Twitter (@CitroenRacing) it should be Abu Dhabi Citroen TOTAL. The Tweet can be found here on 5 Dec ( https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing) but it's not easy to pinpoint as a reference. Will probably be easier to show on the entry list in a few days and the team will probably need to be moved to the upper section of the table too. Grant1990 ( talk) 22:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok, I was thinking I would need to reference the actual tweet, cheers for updating. Now Sordo has been confirmed for Abu Dhabi Citroen Total for the events that Loeb does hopefully we will get confirmation with the Monte entry list as they are both due to compete. Grant1990 ( talk) 12:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Sure. I'm following all the big names connected to the WRC so I'll be sure to use their official pages as a source if I see anything concrete. How did you reference the individual tweet just so I know for the future? Grant1990 ( talk) 13:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't thinks that discriminate the participants in the WRC-2 as it is is the best way to go. Drivers in Subarus and Mitsubishis are also participating for the title in the championship. The Cup is only an additional (That's the way I understand it). So put them as "different" category, sounds like they are not participating in the same championship. Don't know really what would be the solution, maybe just add a reference that also there is a cup for Group N cars. Just don't feel that the icons are the best way. MNSZ ( talk) 11:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
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I think the first one is better. Shouldn't say "M" for Manufacture more that "WRC"? Why won't we try with the 2012 teams and drivers, to see if it is too caotic than the one we are using now. MNSZ ( talk) 23:10, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
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Seeing the Table, I came to the doubt of what's the idea to put entries, when there are more than one car per maker. For example, there is an entrie whit a Ford Fiesta RRC, other with the Ford Fiesta S2000, and other with the new Ford Fiesta R5. How the first column will look like? MNSZ ( talk) 13:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I cannot find a single English-language source to support the claim that Mentos Ascania Racing will use a Regional Rally Car rather than a Super 2000 Mini. Google Translate has been unable to translate any of the sources that have been given in English, so I am not satisfied that they meet WP:RELIABLE.
Furthermore, I'm not even sure if RRC is a class of rally car; as far as I am aware, it is simply a designation that Ford gave one of their Fiestas. Prisonermonkeys ( talk)
Another point regarding the teams enteries table, should we differentiate between enteries regiesterd as Manufacturers and enteries regiesterd as WRC Teams?
A Obeidat ( talk) 06:00, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I try to explain these as there are lots of misunderstandings in this talk.
There are three different types of World Rally Car entries:
1) Manufacturer Teams, (marked as WRC in this article), includes Citroën Total Abu Dhabi WRT, Qatar M-Sport WRT and Volkswagen Motorsport. They must enter two WRC cars in every rally of the year and will score manu points from every rally they enter.
2) WRC Teams, (also marked as WRC in this article), includes at least Qatar WRT, Abu Dhabi Citroën and Lotos Team at the moment. Must nominate at least 7 rounds (= 7–13 rounds) with one or two WRC cars. They score manu points in every rally they have nominated before their campaign. Which means they can score manu points in 13 rallies if they have nominated 13 rallies.
3) Entries not scoring manu points at all, (marked as WRC in this article). In Monte-Carlo, that means Prokop, Bouffier and Maurin.
The question that A Obeidat asked was that should we seperate Manufacturer Teams and WRC Teams. Because now we have them put in together. I think we should seperate them (with different background colors again maybe?) Anti-lag ( talk) 14:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Icon | Class |
---|---|
WRC |
WRC entries nominated to score manufacturer points |
WRC | Major entry not registered as a manufacturer |
WRC | Major entry ineligible to score manufacturer points |
I've decided to create separate pages for the WRC-2, -3 and JWRC. The reason for this is because the article was becoming extremely cluttered with tables, and with the Monte finishing today, there would be another two or three that get included. So I decided that this page should be for the WRC only, and the feeder series could each have their own page. There is a precedent for this: the 2013 Formula One season page does not have subsections for its support series; rather, the 2013 GP2 Series season and 2013 GP3 Series season have their own dedicated pages, so I think the move is justified. It certainly makes the page neater. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 03:30, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
If there where too many tables, maybe we could hide the less needed ones. Now, if we will keep the four pages, we have to make sure that they are actualized on time and "not forgotten" (like the last season of the IRC) MNSZ ( talk) 21:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Just curious, why was my edit about Loeb's entries removed? The sky link clearly stated the four rounds he was competing in.-- Josh Mertz ( talk) 01:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, Matthew Wilson is not Scoring Manu points (ref: http://www.wrc.com/results/2013/rally-sweden/entry-list/), but uses the car, number and entry of Nasser Al-Attiyah (who was expected to be able to score points). So I don't know if is an error of the page, or we should take Wilson out of the Manu Teams and put him with Hanninnen on the Mayor entries not registered to score manu points? On the official Entry List, still appears Al-Attiyah. Anybody has any source showing Wilson as an WRC Team Entry? MNSZ ( talk) 04:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- Monte Carlo rally : "Despite beating Loeb's times on several stages, Ogier was quoted as saying ......"
A reader who didn't follow the event will understand that Ogier was fastest than Loeb on this rally, and that, if he really wanted to, he could have easily won the event, which is of course not correct. The sentence "despite beating Loeb's times" clearly ommits the obvious fact that after building a one minute margin Loeb was in control during the last two days of the rally. This phenomenon often happens in WRC.
- Rally Sweden : "Ogier took the lead of the rally early on the first day, and maintained a thirty-second lead over Loeb until..."
This sentence assumes that Ogier magically built his thirty-second margin over Loeb, but it ommits the important fact that Loeb set a bad time in the QS which resulted in a bad road position and a poor set-up choice. The next day, Loeb set approximately the same times than Ogier.
Feel free to remove what I added if in the meantime you change those summaries to be more neutral. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodada ( talk • contribs) 18:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
This may not be the right place to ask this, but I had a question regarding the manufacturers standings. According to this article Qatar World Rally Team has run at least 2 cars in every rally so far this season but that their second car was only eligible to score manufacturers points in 4 of the 7 rally's so far. Why is that? For example why was Nasser Al-Attiyah eligible to score points in rounds 3, 6 and 7 but not in round 4? The same question applies to the Abu Dhabi Citroen World Rally Team which ran a second car in round 2 but only had one car eligible to score manufacturers points. I was under the impression that all teams that were eligible to score manufacturers points could nominate two cars to do so at each rally. Is that not true for the satellite teams? Thanks for any explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.174.153 ( talk) 17:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Just noticed that Co-Drivers' Championship tables have been added not only to this page, but also here and here. I don't think they are necessary, since there is very few co-drivers changes over the course of a season. It is redundant with the Drivers' Championship tables and brings one more table to pages that are already full of tables. What do you think ? Maimai 009 13:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- The championship for Co-Drivers is sancionated by FIA and has a champion, so I think that it's ok to be there. I really don't think that the thing is that drivers don't change co-drivers much, but we have to try to show the championships that are being running. If all the categories of the championship would be in the same page, then I would think that is too much, but as we have it now, I think it's ok. I post this theme on the talk page, and has 1 agreed and no one else commented. Do you think that we shouldn't have that table? MNSZ ( talk) 11:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
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So, I think the current calendar table is not very good. First of all, there's no reason to have one event in two rows. The empty flagicon template is also a bit odd. Also the surface shouldn't be bolded. Here's my version: (all the info may not be correct yet!)
Round | Rally name | Base | Surface | Dates | WRC2 | WRC3 | JWRC |
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1 |
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Mixed (Asphalt, snow) | 16–19 January | Round 1 | Round 1 | |
2 |
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Snow | 7–10 February | |||
3 |
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Gravel | 8–10 March | |||
4 |
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Gravel | 10–12 April | |||
5 |
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Gravel | 3–5 May | |||
6 |
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Gravel | 31 May–2 June | |||
7 |
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Gravel | 21–23 June | |||
8 |
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Gravel | 2–4 August | |||
9 |
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Asphalt | 23–25 August | |||
10 |
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Gravel | 13–15 September | |||
11 |
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Asphalt | 4–6 October | |||
12 |
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Mixed (Asphalt, gravel) | 25–27 October | |||
13 |
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Gravel | 15–17 November |
Yes, it includes the flags of Sardinia, Catalonia and Wales (all autonomous places) to get a better idea where the rally is actually located.
For me, its ok. But We should wait 'till the final supporting calendar its defined. MNSZ ( talk) 02:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Because you didn't have a consensus for a change. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 04:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Round | Rally name | Base | Surface | Dates |
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1 |
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Valence, Rhône-Alpes | Asphalt | 16–19 January |
2 |
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Hagfors, Värmland | Snow | 7–10 February |
3 |
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León, Guanajuato | Gravel | 8–10 March |
4 |
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Faro, Algarve | Gravel | 10–12 April |
5 |
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Villa Carlos Paz, Córdoba | Gravel | 3–5 May |
6 |
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Loutraki, Corinthia | Gravel | 31 May–2 June |
7 |
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Olbia, Gallura | Gravel | 21–23 June |
8 |
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Jyväskylä, Keski-Suomi | Gravel | 2–4 August |
9 |
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Trier, Rhineland-Palatinate | Asphalt | 23–25 August |
10 |
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Coffs Harbour, New South Wales | Gravel | 13–15 September |
11 |
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Strasbourg, Alsace | Asphalt | 4–6 October |
12 |
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Salou, Tarragona | Mixed (Asphalt, gravel) | 25–27 October |
13 |
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Cardiff, South Glamorgan | Gravel | 15–17 November |
I don't see anything wrong with the current table. Your proposed change is purely cosmetic. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 22:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm more open to this older design of the calendar table now. The current version was introdced because I felt that the support categories tended to dominate the table, and I had to find a way to condense them down to a narrow column. Stacking them on top of one another and shaping the rest of the calendar around it worked best, but now that the support categories have been re-structured and drivers are free to choose which events they compete in, it's no longer necessary.
However, if we do re-introduce it, we would have to find the appropriate flag icons for the rally bases. For instance, Coffs Harbous should have the flag of New South Wales, not the flag of Australia. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 23:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Round | Rally name | Base | Surface | Dates |
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1 |
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Mixed | 16–19 January |
2 |
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Snow | 7–10 February |
3 |
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Gravel | 8–10 March |
4 |
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Faro, Algarve | Gravel | 10–12 April |
5 |
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Gravel | 3–5 May |
6 |
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Loutraki, Corinthia | Gravel | 31 May–2 June |
7 |
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Gravel | 21–23 June |
8 |
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Jyväskylä, Keski-Suomi | Gravel | 2–4 August |
9 |
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Asphalt | 23–25 August |
10 |
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Gravel | 13–15 September |
11 |
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Asphalt | 4–6 October |
12 |
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Mixed | 25–27 October |
13 |
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Gravel | 15–17 November |
In the aftermath of Ford's withdrawal from the WRC, someone insists on removing Ott Tanak from the M-Sport entry on the driver table. I have explained to this person several times that they need sources to support this, and yet they have repeatedly ignored me.
The source supplied makes it clear that Tanak has a contract to drive for M-Sport in 2013. In the absence of any source contradicting this, this is what we have to include in the article. Please do not remove it until you can find an alternate source.
To the person who is removing this content from the article, if you continue to do so despite being told that you need sources, it will be considered vandalism and your edits will be reverted on sight. You may even be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 21:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
the words in bold prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that Mikkelsen is not confirmed for next season. Also this is a more reliable third-party source reporting on an interview with the VW Motorsport boss and is a more recent story than that currently on the page. http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/capito-dont-expect-too-much-too-soon/?fid=17803 and the new source... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104064/
http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/wilson-you-can-win-with-kids/?fid=17775
If you wanted me to reference the blanks you should've said, it sounded like you were saying I hadn't supplied any. By the way these are the exact same sources as before, just with one additional one. I've said before that I just want this to be accurate and have even agreed with a lot of stuff you have done on here in the past mate. As for unreliable sources what is wrong with Autosport and WRC? I find it hard to see how you can get more reliable than that. Where would you like me to add the source for Mikkelsen as there is not a TBA row? If you feel I have been aggressive towards you please feel free to report me to Wikipedia. For the record, I am a motoring and motorsport journalist specialising in rallying which is my passion, this is how I am so up to date on what is happening. Hopefully this is all sorted now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
I have provided sources and have always provided sources to you personally, I was unaware you had to reference blanks which is the only reason they were not added to this page. If you have a look at our talk page you will see I agreed with you about the PaddockTalk and Saudi sources which were in reference to a totally unrelated edit to the one this talk page is in regards to so I do not see why you felt the need to mention that here. I agreed to wait until they are published by more mainstream authors. I have never made any references based on my profession and have always supplied at least one online article to you personally to back up my claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Thierry Neuville
Hmm ok I see you're point. Let's wait and see what happens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Neuville has now been confirmed at M-Sport as expected. Grant1990 ( talk) 17:35, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't be better to divide the Teams and Drivers entries to show the different rules in witch they apply?
- Manufacture Teams - WRC Teams - Mayor Entries not registered to score point.
What do you think? MNSZ ( talk) 01:52, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Manufacturer entries | |||
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Constructor | Team | Drivers | Co-drivers |
Citroën ( Citroën DS3 WRC) |
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Volkswagen ( Volkswagen Polo R WRC) |
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WRC Teams Entries | |||
Citroën ( Citroën DS3 WRC) |
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Ford ( Ford Fiesta RS WRC) |
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Major entries not registered to score manufacturers points | |||
Citroën ( Citroën DS3 WRC) |
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Hyundai ( Hyundai i20 WRC) |
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Mini ( Mini John Cooper Works WRC) |
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When there are more teams, would be looking better.
MNSZ (
talk)
14:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Team | Constructor | Car | Tyre | No. | Driver | Co-driver | Rounds |
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Manufacturer Teams | |||||||
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Citroën | Citroën DS3 WRC | M | 2 |
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0 |
3 |
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0 | ||||
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Volkswagen | Volkswagen Polo R WRC | M | 4 |
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0 |
5 |
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0 | ||||
WRC Teams | |||||||
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Ford | Ford Fiesta RS WRC | M | 6 |
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0 |
7 | ![]() |
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0 | ||||
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Citroën | Citroën DS3 WRC | M | 8 |
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0 |
Constructor | Car | Team | Tyre | Driver | Co-driver | Rounds |
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Citroën | Citroën DS3 WRC |
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M |
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0 |
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0 | ||||
Ford | Ford Fiesta RS WRC |
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M |
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0 |
Very good idea in my opinion. It looks a lot clearer this way (first example) and is more informative. It would be good to have the number back but it does get awkward when they constantly change so maybe just have numbers displayed for the ones that are set for the season (manufacturer & WRC Team entries)?
I'm thinking the second option would be good, I've never really been keen on seeing them sorted by car. Another alternative could be to use the layout of the second one but have them in championship order and not split by the type of team. What do people want to go with then? Grant1990 ( talk) 10:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe that the team and driver table should list Qatar M-Sport as being a Qatari team. Although M-Sport is a British team, the presence of Qatar as title sponsor is significant. In the past, Nasser Al-Attiyah's Qatar-backed teams have competed under a Qatari licence, even though they have been operated by French team PH Sport (who also ran Neuville's Citroen Junior car in 2012). Someone raised the point that Ford was not run under the Abu Dhabi flag when they were known as Ford Abu Dhabi a few years ago, but that was not the same team as M-Sport (even if M-Sport were running the cars; the FIA recognised them as separate teams), and since Abu Dhabi is not in Qatar and the money is not coming from the same place, the nature of the deal is inherently different. Furthermore, with Ford pulling its factory backing and Qatar having purchased the naming rights sponsorship to the team, there is more evidence that the team will run as a Qatari team than as a british one.
Therefore, I propose that Qatar M-Sport be listed under a Qatari flag given the historical precedent of Qatar World Rally Teams operating under a Qatari flag, at least until such time as an entry list is produced. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 06:23, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
You're correct, Ford is not a country but it's a sponsorship deal which is all this is with Qatar. Unless you have a source article to back up your claim it is speculation. Now it's your turn to find an article to back up your points! You have to play by your own rules mate. No article = speculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant1990 ( talk • contribs) 13:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I won't say it ;) Grant1990 ( talk) 13:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
You are correct, it is not a battleground. I will however point out a) the lack of evidence to support a certain flag (that means you adding the Qatari flag) and b) the historical precedent of the M-Sport team competing under the British flag whatever the size, nature or nationality of their sponsor, having the British flag before the entry list was announced should've been the right way forward. I really don't see how you can demand sources from everyone else then not use them to back up your own edits especially as so many of them have turned out the be wide of the mark. We have both had our say now, the entry list has been released and the error on the page corrected so hopefully this is where we shall leave this. Grant1990 ( talk) 17:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Seriously what is going on here!? Who removed my update of Loeb's number? I supplied a credible source, here it is again http://www.wrc.com/news/archive/four-rounds-for-number-one-loeb/?fid=18055 and here is the quote incase you're incapable of reading "They [Loeb & Elena] will carry the number one on their Citroen DS3 WRC". This is the OFFICIAL WRC website, you can't get more credible than that. Furthermore, the champion always carries the number one in his defence year. Why was this removed? If things don't improve here I will take the matter up with Wiki Moderators! Sorry for the people that do update this page responsibly but this is getting ridiculous now! Grant1990 ( talk) 23:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
There's a reason for this, Grant, and it's not a question of a source's crediblity — generally, we don't put numbers into the table until all cars have been assigned numbers. This is something that happens at pretty much every single motorsport page on Wikipedia. Take the 2013 Formula One season page, for instance: the FIA has published a provisional entry list that includes some numbers, but only about half the grid has them. The editors there decided to wait until all of the cars had been assigned a number before adding them in - and we did the same thing on the 2012 World Rally Championship seson page. We waited until the entry list for Monte Carlo had been published before adding those numbers in (they were later removed from the table because as the season went on and drivers started using multiple numbers, it ended up making for a complex and unsightly table). The only exception to this generally takes place when teams and drivers join the championship after the first entry list has been published (in this case, Andreas Mikkelsen).
Since you're relatively new to Wikipedia, you should know that Wikipedia is not a race. Just because something happens, it's not automatically notable enough to be edited in. Knowing when to add content straight away and when to wait is an important skill to have. For instance, we know that Loeb will be #1 when he competes - but is it so critical to understanding the article that it has to be added in before any entry lists are published? The fact that Loeb will compete is the important point here; the number he uses is irrelevant. It's certainly notable enough for inclusion, but only once every single car entered in Monte Carlo has a number of its own (and, for future reference, numbers don't need to be referenced - unless that driver is changing from a number he always uses to something else, like in NASCAR). We can, of course, discuss changing the trend for this page if you think there is a strong enough case for Loeb's number to be included before any other numbers are published, but you may also want to consider bringing the matter up at WikiProject Motosport.
Also, it's my fault that that numbers column appeared. I was expecting an entry list for Monte Carlo sooner rather than later. I must have misread my source that told me entries closed on the 14th as meaning entries would be published on the 14th. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 06:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
It's probably best that the column has been removed going by that then and like you said, bring it back when the first entry list is out. I added Loeb's number because I had a source confirming it, and it is a foregone conclusion, the champion carries number 1 regardless of how many rounds he competes and only the champion can use it. Also under the regulations of the WRC the lead drivers of the manufacturer teams have a set number for the season unless they change teams, which is another reason I felt it safe to add Loeb's number before the first entry list was announced.
I appologise for losing it a bit with my previous post but I was struggling to see what you wanted from me as I provided a credible source. We are both obviously very passionate about the WRC and want this page to be accurate so what do you say we discuss any changes edits here before just removing/undoing them as long as they have been added in good faith and with a solid reference? I have been very busy this month so have not been able to respond to talk page posts as quickly as usual but I will have more time now so I am confident this method will work if you are willing to go with it. Let me know what you think. Grant1990 ( talk) 17:47, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Let's make sure it happens then. Just a minor point, I think we have the name of the second Citroen team slightly wrong. According to Citroen Racing on Twitter (@CitroenRacing) it should be Abu Dhabi Citroen TOTAL. The Tweet can be found here on 5 Dec ( https://twitter.com/CitroenRacing) but it's not easy to pinpoint as a reference. Will probably be easier to show on the entry list in a few days and the team will probably need to be moved to the upper section of the table too. Grant1990 ( talk) 22:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok, I was thinking I would need to reference the actual tweet, cheers for updating. Now Sordo has been confirmed for Abu Dhabi Citroen Total for the events that Loeb does hopefully we will get confirmation with the Monte entry list as they are both due to compete. Grant1990 ( talk) 12:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Sure. I'm following all the big names connected to the WRC so I'll be sure to use their official pages as a source if I see anything concrete. How did you reference the individual tweet just so I know for the future? Grant1990 ( talk) 13:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't thinks that discriminate the participants in the WRC-2 as it is is the best way to go. Drivers in Subarus and Mitsubishis are also participating for the title in the championship. The Cup is only an additional (That's the way I understand it). So put them as "different" category, sounds like they are not participating in the same championship. Don't know really what would be the solution, maybe just add a reference that also there is a cup for Group N cars. Just don't feel that the icons are the best way. MNSZ ( talk) 11:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
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I think the first one is better. Shouldn't say "M" for Manufacture more that "WRC"? Why won't we try with the 2012 teams and drivers, to see if it is too caotic than the one we are using now. MNSZ ( talk) 23:10, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
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Seeing the Table, I came to the doubt of what's the idea to put entries, when there are more than one car per maker. For example, there is an entrie whit a Ford Fiesta RRC, other with the Ford Fiesta S2000, and other with the new Ford Fiesta R5. How the first column will look like? MNSZ ( talk) 13:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I cannot find a single English-language source to support the claim that Mentos Ascania Racing will use a Regional Rally Car rather than a Super 2000 Mini. Google Translate has been unable to translate any of the sources that have been given in English, so I am not satisfied that they meet WP:RELIABLE.
Furthermore, I'm not even sure if RRC is a class of rally car; as far as I am aware, it is simply a designation that Ford gave one of their Fiestas. Prisonermonkeys ( talk)
Another point regarding the teams enteries table, should we differentiate between enteries regiesterd as Manufacturers and enteries regiesterd as WRC Teams?
A Obeidat ( talk) 06:00, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I try to explain these as there are lots of misunderstandings in this talk.
There are three different types of World Rally Car entries:
1) Manufacturer Teams, (marked as WRC in this article), includes Citroën Total Abu Dhabi WRT, Qatar M-Sport WRT and Volkswagen Motorsport. They must enter two WRC cars in every rally of the year and will score manu points from every rally they enter.
2) WRC Teams, (also marked as WRC in this article), includes at least Qatar WRT, Abu Dhabi Citroën and Lotos Team at the moment. Must nominate at least 7 rounds (= 7–13 rounds) with one or two WRC cars. They score manu points in every rally they have nominated before their campaign. Which means they can score manu points in 13 rallies if they have nominated 13 rallies.
3) Entries not scoring manu points at all, (marked as WRC in this article). In Monte-Carlo, that means Prokop, Bouffier and Maurin.
The question that A Obeidat asked was that should we seperate Manufacturer Teams and WRC Teams. Because now we have them put in together. I think we should seperate them (with different background colors again maybe?) Anti-lag ( talk) 14:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Icon | Class |
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WRC |
WRC entries nominated to score manufacturer points |
WRC | Major entry not registered as a manufacturer |
WRC | Major entry ineligible to score manufacturer points |
I've decided to create separate pages for the WRC-2, -3 and JWRC. The reason for this is because the article was becoming extremely cluttered with tables, and with the Monte finishing today, there would be another two or three that get included. So I decided that this page should be for the WRC only, and the feeder series could each have their own page. There is a precedent for this: the 2013 Formula One season page does not have subsections for its support series; rather, the 2013 GP2 Series season and 2013 GP3 Series season have their own dedicated pages, so I think the move is justified. It certainly makes the page neater. Prisonermonkeys ( talk) 03:30, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
If there where too many tables, maybe we could hide the less needed ones. Now, if we will keep the four pages, we have to make sure that they are actualized on time and "not forgotten" (like the last season of the IRC) MNSZ ( talk) 21:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Just curious, why was my edit about Loeb's entries removed? The sky link clearly stated the four rounds he was competing in.-- Josh Mertz ( talk) 01:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, Matthew Wilson is not Scoring Manu points (ref: http://www.wrc.com/results/2013/rally-sweden/entry-list/), but uses the car, number and entry of Nasser Al-Attiyah (who was expected to be able to score points). So I don't know if is an error of the page, or we should take Wilson out of the Manu Teams and put him with Hanninnen on the Mayor entries not registered to score manu points? On the official Entry List, still appears Al-Attiyah. Anybody has any source showing Wilson as an WRC Team Entry? MNSZ ( talk) 04:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- Monte Carlo rally : "Despite beating Loeb's times on several stages, Ogier was quoted as saying ......"
A reader who didn't follow the event will understand that Ogier was fastest than Loeb on this rally, and that, if he really wanted to, he could have easily won the event, which is of course not correct. The sentence "despite beating Loeb's times" clearly ommits the obvious fact that after building a one minute margin Loeb was in control during the last two days of the rally. This phenomenon often happens in WRC.
- Rally Sweden : "Ogier took the lead of the rally early on the first day, and maintained a thirty-second lead over Loeb until..."
This sentence assumes that Ogier magically built his thirty-second margin over Loeb, but it ommits the important fact that Loeb set a bad time in the QS which resulted in a bad road position and a poor set-up choice. The next day, Loeb set approximately the same times than Ogier.
Feel free to remove what I added if in the meantime you change those summaries to be more neutral. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodada ( talk • contribs) 18:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
This may not be the right place to ask this, but I had a question regarding the manufacturers standings. According to this article Qatar World Rally Team has run at least 2 cars in every rally so far this season but that their second car was only eligible to score manufacturers points in 4 of the 7 rally's so far. Why is that? For example why was Nasser Al-Attiyah eligible to score points in rounds 3, 6 and 7 but not in round 4? The same question applies to the Abu Dhabi Citroen World Rally Team which ran a second car in round 2 but only had one car eligible to score manufacturers points. I was under the impression that all teams that were eligible to score manufacturers points could nominate two cars to do so at each rally. Is that not true for the satellite teams? Thanks for any explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.174.153 ( talk) 17:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Just noticed that Co-Drivers' Championship tables have been added not only to this page, but also here and here. I don't think they are necessary, since there is very few co-drivers changes over the course of a season. It is redundant with the Drivers' Championship tables and brings one more table to pages that are already full of tables. What do you think ? Maimai 009 13:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- The championship for Co-Drivers is sancionated by FIA and has a champion, so I think that it's ok to be there. I really don't think that the thing is that drivers don't change co-drivers much, but we have to try to show the championships that are being running. If all the categories of the championship would be in the same page, then I would think that is too much, but as we have it now, I think it's ok. I post this theme on the talk page, and has 1 agreed and no one else commented. Do you think that we shouldn't have that table? MNSZ ( talk) 11:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
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