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2013â14 FC Bayern Munich season article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Could we please use the "footballbox collapsible template" for the depiction of the matches? We used it in every other season's article and it just looks much better. Furthermore it is considered to be consensus to use this template. Please check the articles of some other European football clubs for confirmation. Thanks in advance! Fischer47392 ( talk) 14:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The article must be kept as condense as possible. I'm going to put this article up for Featured article status. The criteria takes issue with length. It also states that Summary style should be used. Summary style takes issue with article size. It says, as "a rule of thumb," that articles over 100 kB "almost certainly should be divided." Last season's article is currently at 182 kB and the prose is not even close to being done. So, to help get this article to featured article status, it should avoid redundancies and be kept condense when possible. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Previous seasons have used Template:fb lo match for the league. I wouldn't mind seeing it also in the Group Stage section for Champions League. We could possibly go back to the footballbox collapsible template in the "DFB-Pokal" section. The "Other matches" section should absolutely stay as is. As for listing the squad information, there are too many competitions to list in a combined table. So, the question is do we keep the "Squad" section or delete it. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I like Template:fb lo match also, so using it for CL is a possiblity. For squad info, DOB and birthplace have nothing to do with this season, so I do not see a need to have them. Previous club only relates to new transfers. If a reader wants DOB, birthplace, or previous clubs s/he may click on the player's name and go to his biography. A table like this one should provide all information needed similar to Template:Efs player. The numbers are: starts(subs). This shows the total number of appearances and starts without a need for two tables to do so. EddieV2003 ( talk) 23:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so, Template:fb lo match for UCL Group Stage and Bundesliga, footballbox collapsible template for DFB-Pokal and UCL Knockout stage and leave "Other matches", "Friendly matches" and "Pre-season cup matches" sections alone? As far as squad information, re-link the players in the squad statistics table, add uniform numbers and country flags to the same table? Kingjeff ( talk) 07:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
If DFB-Pokal ends as a short run, we can change it back, but I think the changes made will work. EddieV2003 ( talk) 15:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Why do we need a separate table for starts? If we are going to distinguish between total appearances and substitutions in the Appearances and Goals table, why not show it as starts + substitutions? The total number will still be shown and it will save the need for another table. That is how it is done in the two seasons I linked to earlier. 2011â12 and 2010â11 EddieV2003 ( talk) 00:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
I didn't actually revert it back the starts table last time. Starts + substitutions isn't really the best way to show appearances. The best options are just total appearances or total appearances (starts) or total appearances (substitute appearances). The starts (substitution appearances) I think came from the Efs player template. But that template shows it as starts + substitute appearances. But I still think one of my three options are better than starts + substitute appearances. Kingjeff ( talk) 16:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
2012â13 York City F.C. season, 2007â08 Sunderland A.F.C. season, 2007â08 Bradford City A.F.C. season, 1998â99 Manchester United F.C. season, and 1998â99 Arsenal F.C. season are all rated as good articles and distinguish between starts and substitutions using x(y). I would like to see it as x+y like in the efs template. The only reason we cannot use this template on this article is the number of competitions is not supported by it. EddieV2003 ( talk) 18:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The good article status is based on the whole article, not just one section. Also, the reviewers for those good articles are probably not football supporters. So, they would assume that it was the proper way of handling appearances in a table. I had been interpreting previous season articles as total appearances (substitute appearances), as the heading indicates. Appearances, which is what the heading is, is referring to total appearances, not starts (substitute appearances). Kingjeff ( talk) 19:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The norm across season articles is that if substitutions are shown, they are separated as start (sub). The header of the table only states appearances, it does not state total (except when displaying the sum of all competitions, then it is the total of the appearances for the season). There are two types of appearances start and substitute. A note at the bottom of the table should clarify any misinterpretations such as the one you claim to have made. EddieV2003 ( talk) 20:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
A note doesn't necessarily clarify the issue. Last season's article only mentions the "numbers in parenthesis." So, we are left to assume what the numbers outside the parenthesis are. I did add a note at the bottom of this season's article. It clearly states "Appearances = Total appearances (Substitute appearances)." "The norm" doesn't make something correct. Yes, there are two types of appearances. But when the heading just says appearances, it's implying total appearances. The total you are referring to is the total from all competitions. Kingjeff ( talk) 21:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
We could change the table to look like example 1 to include starts and substitutions as different sections entirely. We also could include assists, a statistic which disappeared from last season's article, in the table like example 2. EddieV2003 ( talk) 02:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I do like table 1. But I would like to tweak it a little before a final consensus and see if the tweaks are suitable. Kingjeff ( talk) 02:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Both tables look good. Jeff, looking forward to your alterations. JSpsu05 ( talk) 16:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
My the table, with my additions, is on my user page. All relevant stats are included. Therefore there is no need for any extra tables for total appearances, starts, substitution appearances or goals. Kingjeff ( talk) 19:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
That looks good to me. EddieV2003 ( talk) 20:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Can the colors be added again to the players based upon their position (i.e. blue for GK, green for defenders, etc.)? Also, can the player's nationality be added again? I've been trying to configure both, but I'm having trouble. JSpsu05 ( talk) 15:52, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Maybe we can have the colours over just the names and uniform numbers. Kingjeff ( talk) 01:56, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
What is the purpose of the colors? The players are in clearly defined sections based on their position. The colors in competitions quickly identify w/d/l, but a player in a section labeled goalkeepers is clearly a goalkeeper. Nationality is common among season articles, so its inclusion would meet that norm, however I do not see its purpose other than to segregate. EddieV2003 ( talk) 02:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
I think it just makes the data easier to view. That's all. JSpsu05 ( talk) 15:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Should the fb_lo reports show Bayern as the left team and the opponent as the right team for all matches? The score is reported with Bayern goals first and the tables for friendlies/other matches list Bayern as the left team. The switching for away matches is probably from football box templates which show the away team on the right. EddieV2003 ( talk) 02:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Last season's article has only the score as Bayern on the left and the opposition on the right. The information to the right of goal difference depended on if Bayern were home and away. Kingjeff ( talk) 03:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
That is the way it has been done in the past. Should we change it so that it is consistent with the way that the matches in the friendlies/other matches sections are reported? The order of teams is not needed to show it is an away match since there is a section on the template that displays H for home and A for away. It is something that may be clear to regular editors/readers like I thought the subs part of the appearances table was, but to others who do not read the note that it is Bayern goals first having the stats in the order of the score may be better. EddieV2003 ( talk) 12:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
The friendly and other matches are fine. There is no need to change anything as far as matches are concerned. If we do change anything, it should be league, DFBâPokal, and UCL Group Stage matches. Kingjeff ( talk) 18:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I am suggesting that we change the league/CL group stage matches to the same order as friendly matches. The footballbox templates for Pokal matches use team position to indicate home/away, so they will remain in that order with the correct information under the team name. The football_lo that is used in league/CL group is what I propose changing. EddieV2003 ( talk) 18:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
We can use the same table as the on that the 2013â14 FC Schalke 04 season article. Kingjeff ( talk) 18:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Below is what I am suggesting. Bayern will always be the team on the left like in the table in the Schalke article. This change is not a big one and will keep the information in the same order in the different sections.
Match |
Date |
Ground |
Opponent |
Score1 |
Pos. |
Pts. |
GD |
Report | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 9 August | H | Borussia Mönchengladbach | 3 â 1 | 3 | 3 | 2 |
| ||||||||||||
2 | 17 August | A | Eintracht Frankfurt | 1 â 0 | 2 | 6 | 3 |
|
Source:
citation needed
1Bayern Munich goals come first.
Ground's country's flag and opponent's country's flag shown when from a different country of Bayern Munich.
Pos. = Position in league, Pts. = Points, GD = Goal difference, Ground: H = Home, A = Away, N = Neutral, HR = Home replacement, AR = Away replacement.
For DFBâPokal and CL Knockout rounds, we could use the following template to help make them more uniform:
Game |
Date |
Tournament |
Round |
Ground |
Opponent |
Score1 |
Report | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 25 September | DFBâPokal | 2 | H | Hannover 96 |
|
Last updated: 5 September 2013
Source:
citation needed
1Bayern Munich goals come first.
National flags for Ground and Opponent columns are only shown when different from that of Bayern Munich.
M = Match; Ground: H = Home, A = Away, N = Neutral, HR = Home replacement, AR = Away replacement.
EddieV2003 (
talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The second template looks like it's more for the "Other matches" section. Or all matches are clumped together in one section. Although that wouldn't work when there is an aggregate score needed. Kingjeff ( talk) 19:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
This is a great section to keep track of overall stats. I updated it, but left out some of the info as I didn't want to list 11 players for many of the categories. As the season progresses and the stats become more clear, we can update the remaining sections. JSpsu05 ( talk) 18:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I put "starting lineâup" for both super cup matches and put a note of the starting lineâup in the notes section. Kingjeff ( talk) 19:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
As much as I like the current squad appearances table, it's still not suitable for sourcing the information. I believe that, to properly source appearances, we can't have the split of starts and substituted appearances. I am planning to use the player pages at kicker.de to source the appearances for the Bundesliga, DFBâPokal, and Champions League; match reports for the German Super Cup and UEFA Super Cup; and fifa.com for the FIFA Club World Cup. Kingjeff ( talk) 06:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 2013â14 FC Bayern Munich season's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "md21":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⥠09:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 2013â14 FC Bayern Munich season's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "md34":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⥠00:50, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2013â14 FC Bayern Munich season article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Could we please use the "footballbox collapsible template" for the depiction of the matches? We used it in every other season's article and it just looks much better. Furthermore it is considered to be consensus to use this template. Please check the articles of some other European football clubs for confirmation. Thanks in advance! Fischer47392 ( talk) 14:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The article must be kept as condense as possible. I'm going to put this article up for Featured article status. The criteria takes issue with length. It also states that Summary style should be used. Summary style takes issue with article size. It says, as "a rule of thumb," that articles over 100 kB "almost certainly should be divided." Last season's article is currently at 182 kB and the prose is not even close to being done. So, to help get this article to featured article status, it should avoid redundancies and be kept condense when possible. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Previous seasons have used Template:fb lo match for the league. I wouldn't mind seeing it also in the Group Stage section for Champions League. We could possibly go back to the footballbox collapsible template in the "DFB-Pokal" section. The "Other matches" section should absolutely stay as is. As for listing the squad information, there are too many competitions to list in a combined table. So, the question is do we keep the "Squad" section or delete it. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I like Template:fb lo match also, so using it for CL is a possiblity. For squad info, DOB and birthplace have nothing to do with this season, so I do not see a need to have them. Previous club only relates to new transfers. If a reader wants DOB, birthplace, or previous clubs s/he may click on the player's name and go to his biography. A table like this one should provide all information needed similar to Template:Efs player. The numbers are: starts(subs). This shows the total number of appearances and starts without a need for two tables to do so. EddieV2003 ( talk) 23:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so, Template:fb lo match for UCL Group Stage and Bundesliga, footballbox collapsible template for DFB-Pokal and UCL Knockout stage and leave "Other matches", "Friendly matches" and "Pre-season cup matches" sections alone? As far as squad information, re-link the players in the squad statistics table, add uniform numbers and country flags to the same table? Kingjeff ( talk) 07:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
If DFB-Pokal ends as a short run, we can change it back, but I think the changes made will work. EddieV2003 ( talk) 15:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Why do we need a separate table for starts? If we are going to distinguish between total appearances and substitutions in the Appearances and Goals table, why not show it as starts + substitutions? The total number will still be shown and it will save the need for another table. That is how it is done in the two seasons I linked to earlier. 2011â12 and 2010â11 EddieV2003 ( talk) 00:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
I didn't actually revert it back the starts table last time. Starts + substitutions isn't really the best way to show appearances. The best options are just total appearances or total appearances (starts) or total appearances (substitute appearances). The starts (substitution appearances) I think came from the Efs player template. But that template shows it as starts + substitute appearances. But I still think one of my three options are better than starts + substitute appearances. Kingjeff ( talk) 16:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
2012â13 York City F.C. season, 2007â08 Sunderland A.F.C. season, 2007â08 Bradford City A.F.C. season, 1998â99 Manchester United F.C. season, and 1998â99 Arsenal F.C. season are all rated as good articles and distinguish between starts and substitutions using x(y). I would like to see it as x+y like in the efs template. The only reason we cannot use this template on this article is the number of competitions is not supported by it. EddieV2003 ( talk) 18:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The good article status is based on the whole article, not just one section. Also, the reviewers for those good articles are probably not football supporters. So, they would assume that it was the proper way of handling appearances in a table. I had been interpreting previous season articles as total appearances (substitute appearances), as the heading indicates. Appearances, which is what the heading is, is referring to total appearances, not starts (substitute appearances). Kingjeff ( talk) 19:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The norm across season articles is that if substitutions are shown, they are separated as start (sub). The header of the table only states appearances, it does not state total (except when displaying the sum of all competitions, then it is the total of the appearances for the season). There are two types of appearances start and substitute. A note at the bottom of the table should clarify any misinterpretations such as the one you claim to have made. EddieV2003 ( talk) 20:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
A note doesn't necessarily clarify the issue. Last season's article only mentions the "numbers in parenthesis." So, we are left to assume what the numbers outside the parenthesis are. I did add a note at the bottom of this season's article. It clearly states "Appearances = Total appearances (Substitute appearances)." "The norm" doesn't make something correct. Yes, there are two types of appearances. But when the heading just says appearances, it's implying total appearances. The total you are referring to is the total from all competitions. Kingjeff ( talk) 21:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
We could change the table to look like example 1 to include starts and substitutions as different sections entirely. We also could include assists, a statistic which disappeared from last season's article, in the table like example 2. EddieV2003 ( talk) 02:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I do like table 1. But I would like to tweak it a little before a final consensus and see if the tweaks are suitable. Kingjeff ( talk) 02:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Both tables look good. Jeff, looking forward to your alterations. JSpsu05 ( talk) 16:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
My the table, with my additions, is on my user page. All relevant stats are included. Therefore there is no need for any extra tables for total appearances, starts, substitution appearances or goals. Kingjeff ( talk) 19:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
That looks good to me. EddieV2003 ( talk) 20:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Can the colors be added again to the players based upon their position (i.e. blue for GK, green for defenders, etc.)? Also, can the player's nationality be added again? I've been trying to configure both, but I'm having trouble. JSpsu05 ( talk) 15:52, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Maybe we can have the colours over just the names and uniform numbers. Kingjeff ( talk) 01:56, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
What is the purpose of the colors? The players are in clearly defined sections based on their position. The colors in competitions quickly identify w/d/l, but a player in a section labeled goalkeepers is clearly a goalkeeper. Nationality is common among season articles, so its inclusion would meet that norm, however I do not see its purpose other than to segregate. EddieV2003 ( talk) 02:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
I think it just makes the data easier to view. That's all. JSpsu05 ( talk) 15:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Should the fb_lo reports show Bayern as the left team and the opponent as the right team for all matches? The score is reported with Bayern goals first and the tables for friendlies/other matches list Bayern as the left team. The switching for away matches is probably from football box templates which show the away team on the right. EddieV2003 ( talk) 02:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Last season's article has only the score as Bayern on the left and the opposition on the right. The information to the right of goal difference depended on if Bayern were home and away. Kingjeff ( talk) 03:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
That is the way it has been done in the past. Should we change it so that it is consistent with the way that the matches in the friendlies/other matches sections are reported? The order of teams is not needed to show it is an away match since there is a section on the template that displays H for home and A for away. It is something that may be clear to regular editors/readers like I thought the subs part of the appearances table was, but to others who do not read the note that it is Bayern goals first having the stats in the order of the score may be better. EddieV2003 ( talk) 12:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
The friendly and other matches are fine. There is no need to change anything as far as matches are concerned. If we do change anything, it should be league, DFBâPokal, and UCL Group Stage matches. Kingjeff ( talk) 18:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I am suggesting that we change the league/CL group stage matches to the same order as friendly matches. The footballbox templates for Pokal matches use team position to indicate home/away, so they will remain in that order with the correct information under the team name. The football_lo that is used in league/CL group is what I propose changing. EddieV2003 ( talk) 18:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
We can use the same table as the on that the 2013â14 FC Schalke 04 season article. Kingjeff ( talk) 18:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Below is what I am suggesting. Bayern will always be the team on the left like in the table in the Schalke article. This change is not a big one and will keep the information in the same order in the different sections.
Match |
Date |
Ground |
Opponent |
Score1 |
Pos. |
Pts. |
GD |
Report | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 9 August | H | Borussia Mönchengladbach | 3 â 1 | 3 | 3 | 2 |
| ||||||||||||
2 | 17 August | A | Eintracht Frankfurt | 1 â 0 | 2 | 6 | 3 |
|
Source:
citation needed
1Bayern Munich goals come first.
Ground's country's flag and opponent's country's flag shown when from a different country of Bayern Munich.
Pos. = Position in league, Pts. = Points, GD = Goal difference, Ground: H = Home, A = Away, N = Neutral, HR = Home replacement, AR = Away replacement.
For DFBâPokal and CL Knockout rounds, we could use the following template to help make them more uniform:
Game |
Date |
Tournament |
Round |
Ground |
Opponent |
Score1 |
Report | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 25 September | DFBâPokal | 2 | H | Hannover 96 |
|
Last updated: 5 September 2013
Source:
citation needed
1Bayern Munich goals come first.
National flags for Ground and Opponent columns are only shown when different from that of Bayern Munich.
M = Match; Ground: H = Home, A = Away, N = Neutral, HR = Home replacement, AR = Away replacement.
EddieV2003 (
talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The second template looks like it's more for the "Other matches" section. Or all matches are clumped together in one section. Although that wouldn't work when there is an aggregate score needed. Kingjeff ( talk) 19:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
This is a great section to keep track of overall stats. I updated it, but left out some of the info as I didn't want to list 11 players for many of the categories. As the season progresses and the stats become more clear, we can update the remaining sections. JSpsu05 ( talk) 18:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I put "starting lineâup" for both super cup matches and put a note of the starting lineâup in the notes section. Kingjeff ( talk) 19:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
As much as I like the current squad appearances table, it's still not suitable for sourcing the information. I believe that, to properly source appearances, we can't have the split of starts and substituted appearances. I am planning to use the player pages at kicker.de to source the appearances for the Bundesliga, DFBâPokal, and Champions League; match reports for the German Super Cup and UEFA Super Cup; and fifa.com for the FIFA Club World Cup. Kingjeff ( talk) 06:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 2013â14 FC Bayern Munich season's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "md21":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⥠09:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 2013â14 FC Bayern Munich season's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "md34":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⥠00:50, 12 May 2014 (UTC)