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I am retracting my complaints I do feel though that this would be better presented in the main article - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 02:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay I have a few issues with this article:
1. Where does any reliable source come out and say this is connected to the bombings or the suspects?
2. If it is connected to the suspects why is it not in one of the main articles? ( WP:COATRACK)
3. Where is the evidence that the brothers killed these three people? (
WP:BLPCRIME)
Responses would be helpful. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 01:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Here is what Boston Globe says: "investigators had said that Brendan Mess, 25, along with Erik Weissman, 25, and Raphael Teken, 37, were killed on Sept. 12, 2011, in Mess’s apartment on Harding Street, a quiet residential street in Waltham. They also said they believed drugs were involved. But the relative interviewed by the Globe said the murders took place the evening before, on Sept. 11"
Wikipedia should here either go with the official version (12) or as unsure (11 or 12). Wikipedia should note state that the murders were committed on September 11 before officials change their date from 12 to 11. Also, the anniversary for the 9/11 attacks shouldn't be mentioned first thing in the lede. The connection is not established yet. Iselilja ( talk) 14:46, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Evidence for Sept 11 is very clear and police now agree. Article now reflects this.
Legacypac (
talk)
21:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I have seen victim Erik Weissman listed as age 25 in some sources and as age 31 in others. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 14:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
His memorial Facebook page says Weissman was born on June 19, 1980 in Saint Elizabeth Hospital, Brookline, Massachusetts 7.6 LB 21" long 2 hugh dimples Adorable. There is a photo of him as baby too. [1] June 1980-Sept 2011 = 31 years old at death. Legacypac ( talk) 16:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Mess were approximately the same age, and attended the same high school. Cambridge Rindge and Latin High School/ Has anyone seen an article that both mentions: a) that Tamerlan went to the high school, and b) in the same article mentions that Mess went there, so it can be added to this article without being synth? Also, can anyone find when they graduated the high school? Thanks.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 07:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
References
References
I took the street number out of the infobox - there are some people who are concerned about privacy and victimization. If we are willing to give the exact address of where Tamerlan lived, and where his wife is staying with her parents now, then it would be fair to include it, and I'd actually prefer that as a status quo, but so far as I know people have been claiming WP:BLP#Avoid victimization and keeping these things out. Wnt ( talk) 17:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I've read that some or all of the vics have a past history of drug dealing. Most specifically I found a report (dated back at the time) of Mess being arrested with two other people riding together in NH for pot. Since they had pot sprinkled over their bodies, this seems pretty relevant. Also, this is partly why the police felt the crime was drug related. With all the current stories it is hard to find the older sources - but possible. Does anyone object to including well sourced info on past drug connections for the vics? Legacypac ( talk) 21:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
First of all: I'm not usually a conspiracy loony. That said, I find it very hard to believe that the police really thought the murders were commited on the 12th. That when all telephone and other communication of the trio stopped in the evening of the 11th. Food were ordered on that evening, but not delived because no one opened the door. Another creepy detail. Why the police initally believed it was taking place on the 12th, is beyond me. That all victims were jews butchered in al-queda style, should also make some alarm bells ring.
It seems that this is a cover up from the police to me, to hide the fact the muslim terror did occur on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11-attacks to aviod public panic or something.
One policeman is quoted in the article saying that the trio was butchered in al-queda style. Did he say that to the press in 2011 or is this something he has said in 2013 in heinzeit? The article is a little unclear on this.
Bjarnulf, Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 ( talk) 18:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
That was a comment made by an investigator in 2013.
In my personal opinion, it sounds like a "cover-up" to me too. The police probably didn't want a media storm or public overreaction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.179.38.140 ( talk) 16:24, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Since to decapitate means to remove the head, it's clearly a gross illiteracy to write that "their heads were nearly decapitated", whether it occurs in a source or not. William Avery ( talk) 12:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
The infobox and the article itself both refer to the near-decapitation as being from either an ice pick or a knife: "slit from ear-to-ear with either an ice pick or knife". This seems rather dubious. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't think you can "slit" anything with an ice pick. The quoted sentence in the article references three sources. I checked all of them and did not find any mention of the ice pick possibility. For that matter, I don't recall seeing any of them explicitly mention a knife either, although that seems rather obvious. I did see the word "slit". I suggest to change "slit from ear-to-ear with either an ice pick or knife" to just "slit from ear-to-ear" (and to remove the ice pick from the infobox). — BarrelProof ( talk) 18:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't know whether it was vandalism or some kind of repeated copy/paste problem, but I just found a lot of incorrect dates in the article. Lots of references that were obviously published in 2013 were dated with article dates of Sept. 11, 2011 or Sept. 12, 2011. I also found what looked like some duplicated references or incorrect links & titles. I tried to fix the problems that seemed readily apparent. Probably some more cleanup is needed, and I invite others to check what I did and to check the dates on the remaining references. — BarrelProof ( talk) 05:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Another wording issue – apparently, some source used the phrase "Thousands of dollars of marijuana". (Most of them didn't use that phrase, but apparently one of them did.) The exact sentence in the article was "Thousands of dollars of marijuana and money were left covering their mutilated bodies, and $5,000 was left at the scene." My highly non-expert understanding is that the dollar is a unit of measurement for quantities of money rather than quantities of marijuana (which I would expect to be measured in ounces or pounds or cubic centimetres). Also, I strongly suspect that saying "Thousands of dollars of ... money ... and $5,000 was left at the scene" is referring to the same money twice. Also, I noticed that most sources only referred to the bodies being covered with marijuana, and said that the cash was nearby rather than being part of what covered the bodies. Also, I thought the subjective adjective "mutilated" was unnecessary and redundant when following the sentence saying that "All had their throats slit from ear to ear, with such great force that they were nearly decapitated."
So I changed the sentence that was saying "Thousands of dollars of marijuana and money were left covering their mutilated bodies, and $5,000 was left at the scene." to instead say "Their bodies were left covered with marijuana, and $5,000 was left at the scene." My impression is that the latter version is better supported by most reliable sources and is less subjective. My change was rapidly reverted with the comment "this was in a supplied ref", so I'm bringing it up here for discussion. Remarks are hereby solicited.
— BarrelProof ( talk) 01:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
In the New investigation details section, it states: After the Marathon bombing, a Planet Aid driver found discarded fireworks in the Planet Aid donation bin in the parking lot of a restaurant, Gerry's Italian Kitchen. Police investigators told ABC News that "the gunpowder had been emptied from the fireworks and the shells discarded in a shopping bag inside the bin". I am confused. What does this have to do with the murders? If anything, it seems like that info should be in the Boston Marathon bombings article ... no? I don't see how or why it is relevant in this article. How is this relevant to the 2011 murders? If there is indeed some relevance (and I am simply missing it), the article should clarify that as well. Any thoughts? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 02:43, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I am a member of Erik's family. He was never a member of a synagogue, and we have no idea how that mistake first appeared in any reports. The problem is, I keep getting rejected when I attempt to correct this error, but because the mistake has been published, it is considered more accurate than actual personal and familial knowledge. Sad state of affairs, that. Anyway, we all care about facts, and continuing to keep this blatant misstatement on the page is a real problem. Please remove it- the original sources for this quote are incorrect and, indeed, there is no reliable source for it. Mind you, Erik was proud of his jewish and his israeli heritage, but he was not observant.
Always a problem proving a negative, eh? It's also a problem when an inaccuracy gets published and no-one bothers to retract it.
Opsono Yonferal 16:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC) Wade Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opsono ( talk • contribs)
It appears that Todashev's death at the hands of the FBI is sufficiently notable for him to deserve his own article, with the name to be determined. (The article would be about his encounter with the FBI specifically, rather than a "biographical" article about him.) There are two reasons I think so.
A model for the proposed article could be the Rodney King article. As is the case with Todashev, the only thing that made King notable was his treatment by US law enforcement. – Herzen ( talk) 21:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to 2011 Waltham triple murder. It's a shame there wasn't more participation, but the thread about "homicide" vs. "murder" seemed to more reasonably conclude that "murder" is appropriate here, as that's what reliable sources call the event. That's enough to move the article. But I should add that it also seems hard to believe that there wasn't intent to kill when "all had their throats slit from ear to ear, with such great force that they were nearly decapitated." -- tariqabjotu 13:19, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
2011 Waltham murders → 2011 Waltham triple homicide – The current title doesn't seem sufficiently clear or disambiguating. I would consider doing this as a WP:BOLD move, but the topic seems sensitive and is the subject of a lot of recent attention, and perhaps a better suggestion can be found through discussion. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 23:58, 19 June 2013 (UTC) BarrelProof ( talk) 05:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
There are currently three external links to videos of one of the victims. I find them grotesque, something utterly inappropriate for an encyclopedia. All three links in the external links section are to pages on YouTube. This is the first time I have seen a Wikipedia article making direct links to YouTube. Any objections to deleting the whole External Links section of this article? – Herzen ( talk) 07:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I may be missing something. But, what is the "big deal" if the crime was committed on September 11 or on September 12? It seems that this article makes an effort to point out that initial reports were September 12; then, further evidence came about to change that to September 11. Either way, what's the big deal? As I said, I may be missing something. Also, I presume that these murders occurred at night. So, if the killers did the killing prior to 11:59 PM, then the correct date is September 11. If the killers did the killing after 12:00 AM, then the correct date is September 12. So, in the end, who cares? And what's the big deal? And why is the distinction (seemingly) so important in this case? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 22:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2011 Waltham triple murder article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am retracting my complaints I do feel though that this would be better presented in the main article - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 02:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay I have a few issues with this article:
1. Where does any reliable source come out and say this is connected to the bombings or the suspects?
2. If it is connected to the suspects why is it not in one of the main articles? ( WP:COATRACK)
3. Where is the evidence that the brothers killed these three people? (
WP:BLPCRIME)
Responses would be helpful. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 01:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Here is what Boston Globe says: "investigators had said that Brendan Mess, 25, along with Erik Weissman, 25, and Raphael Teken, 37, were killed on Sept. 12, 2011, in Mess’s apartment on Harding Street, a quiet residential street in Waltham. They also said they believed drugs were involved. But the relative interviewed by the Globe said the murders took place the evening before, on Sept. 11"
Wikipedia should here either go with the official version (12) or as unsure (11 or 12). Wikipedia should note state that the murders were committed on September 11 before officials change their date from 12 to 11. Also, the anniversary for the 9/11 attacks shouldn't be mentioned first thing in the lede. The connection is not established yet. Iselilja ( talk) 14:46, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Evidence for Sept 11 is very clear and police now agree. Article now reflects this.
Legacypac (
talk)
21:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I have seen victim Erik Weissman listed as age 25 in some sources and as age 31 in others. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 14:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
His memorial Facebook page says Weissman was born on June 19, 1980 in Saint Elizabeth Hospital, Brookline, Massachusetts 7.6 LB 21" long 2 hugh dimples Adorable. There is a photo of him as baby too. [1] June 1980-Sept 2011 = 31 years old at death. Legacypac ( talk) 16:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Mess were approximately the same age, and attended the same high school. Cambridge Rindge and Latin High School/ Has anyone seen an article that both mentions: a) that Tamerlan went to the high school, and b) in the same article mentions that Mess went there, so it can be added to this article without being synth? Also, can anyone find when they graduated the high school? Thanks.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 07:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
References
References
I took the street number out of the infobox - there are some people who are concerned about privacy and victimization. If we are willing to give the exact address of where Tamerlan lived, and where his wife is staying with her parents now, then it would be fair to include it, and I'd actually prefer that as a status quo, but so far as I know people have been claiming WP:BLP#Avoid victimization and keeping these things out. Wnt ( talk) 17:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I've read that some or all of the vics have a past history of drug dealing. Most specifically I found a report (dated back at the time) of Mess being arrested with two other people riding together in NH for pot. Since they had pot sprinkled over their bodies, this seems pretty relevant. Also, this is partly why the police felt the crime was drug related. With all the current stories it is hard to find the older sources - but possible. Does anyone object to including well sourced info on past drug connections for the vics? Legacypac ( talk) 21:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
First of all: I'm not usually a conspiracy loony. That said, I find it very hard to believe that the police really thought the murders were commited on the 12th. That when all telephone and other communication of the trio stopped in the evening of the 11th. Food were ordered on that evening, but not delived because no one opened the door. Another creepy detail. Why the police initally believed it was taking place on the 12th, is beyond me. That all victims were jews butchered in al-queda style, should also make some alarm bells ring.
It seems that this is a cover up from the police to me, to hide the fact the muslim terror did occur on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11-attacks to aviod public panic or something.
One policeman is quoted in the article saying that the trio was butchered in al-queda style. Did he say that to the press in 2011 or is this something he has said in 2013 in heinzeit? The article is a little unclear on this.
Bjarnulf, Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 ( talk) 18:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
That was a comment made by an investigator in 2013.
In my personal opinion, it sounds like a "cover-up" to me too. The police probably didn't want a media storm or public overreaction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.179.38.140 ( talk) 16:24, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Since to decapitate means to remove the head, it's clearly a gross illiteracy to write that "their heads were nearly decapitated", whether it occurs in a source or not. William Avery ( talk) 12:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
The infobox and the article itself both refer to the near-decapitation as being from either an ice pick or a knife: "slit from ear-to-ear with either an ice pick or knife". This seems rather dubious. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't think you can "slit" anything with an ice pick. The quoted sentence in the article references three sources. I checked all of them and did not find any mention of the ice pick possibility. For that matter, I don't recall seeing any of them explicitly mention a knife either, although that seems rather obvious. I did see the word "slit". I suggest to change "slit from ear-to-ear with either an ice pick or knife" to just "slit from ear-to-ear" (and to remove the ice pick from the infobox). — BarrelProof ( talk) 18:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't know whether it was vandalism or some kind of repeated copy/paste problem, but I just found a lot of incorrect dates in the article. Lots of references that were obviously published in 2013 were dated with article dates of Sept. 11, 2011 or Sept. 12, 2011. I also found what looked like some duplicated references or incorrect links & titles. I tried to fix the problems that seemed readily apparent. Probably some more cleanup is needed, and I invite others to check what I did and to check the dates on the remaining references. — BarrelProof ( talk) 05:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Another wording issue – apparently, some source used the phrase "Thousands of dollars of marijuana". (Most of them didn't use that phrase, but apparently one of them did.) The exact sentence in the article was "Thousands of dollars of marijuana and money were left covering their mutilated bodies, and $5,000 was left at the scene." My highly non-expert understanding is that the dollar is a unit of measurement for quantities of money rather than quantities of marijuana (which I would expect to be measured in ounces or pounds or cubic centimetres). Also, I strongly suspect that saying "Thousands of dollars of ... money ... and $5,000 was left at the scene" is referring to the same money twice. Also, I noticed that most sources only referred to the bodies being covered with marijuana, and said that the cash was nearby rather than being part of what covered the bodies. Also, I thought the subjective adjective "mutilated" was unnecessary and redundant when following the sentence saying that "All had their throats slit from ear to ear, with such great force that they were nearly decapitated."
So I changed the sentence that was saying "Thousands of dollars of marijuana and money were left covering their mutilated bodies, and $5,000 was left at the scene." to instead say "Their bodies were left covered with marijuana, and $5,000 was left at the scene." My impression is that the latter version is better supported by most reliable sources and is less subjective. My change was rapidly reverted with the comment "this was in a supplied ref", so I'm bringing it up here for discussion. Remarks are hereby solicited.
— BarrelProof ( talk) 01:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
In the New investigation details section, it states: After the Marathon bombing, a Planet Aid driver found discarded fireworks in the Planet Aid donation bin in the parking lot of a restaurant, Gerry's Italian Kitchen. Police investigators told ABC News that "the gunpowder had been emptied from the fireworks and the shells discarded in a shopping bag inside the bin". I am confused. What does this have to do with the murders? If anything, it seems like that info should be in the Boston Marathon bombings article ... no? I don't see how or why it is relevant in this article. How is this relevant to the 2011 murders? If there is indeed some relevance (and I am simply missing it), the article should clarify that as well. Any thoughts? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 02:43, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I am a member of Erik's family. He was never a member of a synagogue, and we have no idea how that mistake first appeared in any reports. The problem is, I keep getting rejected when I attempt to correct this error, but because the mistake has been published, it is considered more accurate than actual personal and familial knowledge. Sad state of affairs, that. Anyway, we all care about facts, and continuing to keep this blatant misstatement on the page is a real problem. Please remove it- the original sources for this quote are incorrect and, indeed, there is no reliable source for it. Mind you, Erik was proud of his jewish and his israeli heritage, but he was not observant.
Always a problem proving a negative, eh? It's also a problem when an inaccuracy gets published and no-one bothers to retract it.
Opsono Yonferal 16:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC) Wade Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opsono ( talk • contribs)
It appears that Todashev's death at the hands of the FBI is sufficiently notable for him to deserve his own article, with the name to be determined. (The article would be about his encounter with the FBI specifically, rather than a "biographical" article about him.) There are two reasons I think so.
A model for the proposed article could be the Rodney King article. As is the case with Todashev, the only thing that made King notable was his treatment by US law enforcement. – Herzen ( talk) 21:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to 2011 Waltham triple murder. It's a shame there wasn't more participation, but the thread about "homicide" vs. "murder" seemed to more reasonably conclude that "murder" is appropriate here, as that's what reliable sources call the event. That's enough to move the article. But I should add that it also seems hard to believe that there wasn't intent to kill when "all had their throats slit from ear to ear, with such great force that they were nearly decapitated." -- tariqabjotu 13:19, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
2011 Waltham murders → 2011 Waltham triple homicide – The current title doesn't seem sufficiently clear or disambiguating. I would consider doing this as a WP:BOLD move, but the topic seems sensitive and is the subject of a lot of recent attention, and perhaps a better suggestion can be found through discussion. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 23:58, 19 June 2013 (UTC) BarrelProof ( talk) 05:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
There are currently three external links to videos of one of the victims. I find them grotesque, something utterly inappropriate for an encyclopedia. All three links in the external links section are to pages on YouTube. This is the first time I have seen a Wikipedia article making direct links to YouTube. Any objections to deleting the whole External Links section of this article? – Herzen ( talk) 07:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I may be missing something. But, what is the "big deal" if the crime was committed on September 11 or on September 12? It seems that this article makes an effort to point out that initial reports were September 12; then, further evidence came about to change that to September 11. Either way, what's the big deal? As I said, I may be missing something. Also, I presume that these murders occurred at night. So, if the killers did the killing prior to 11:59 PM, then the correct date is September 11. If the killers did the killing after 12:00 AM, then the correct date is September 12. So, in the end, who cares? And what's the big deal? And why is the distinction (seemingly) so important in this case? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 22:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)