This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
At least one online source has released the name of the murderer. I believe it is better to refrain from including the name until it is confirmed by multiple reliable sources. — Ched : ? 10:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure you guys know about his website by now, georgesodini.com/20090804.htm But what I found weird is if you goto that page, and click the "me" link at the top, an image of him appears. If you resize that window with the image, this text is below the image: "The south trailhead is located at the end of Lava Avenue, which has ample parking." Does anyone know what that could mean? 216.220.23.21 ( talk) 15:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
In regards to the website, the article currently states: "The gunman was Carnegie, PA. resident George Sodini, who was 48 years old. On a website registered in his name, Sodini described years of rejection by women and his struggles with alcoholism. The site also chronicles, over a nine-month period, his plans to carry out a shooting."
I don't see anywhere on his website where he chronicles his "plans" to carry out a shooting. I need to read it again to come up with something that goes here, but to me the whole thing just read like a sucicide note. The site also doesn't describe "struggles with alcoholism"... he mentions that he has been sober for 20 years and how he bought a bottle of vodka and some Jack Daniels. This hardly constitutes a chronicling of "struggles with alcohol".... Faethon Ghost ( talk) 16:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Seems as if his website is down. Here's the full text. ( Lord Gøn ( talk) 17:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
The web site was taken down at 11:15 am EDT, just after I has saved the "liveordie.htm" page but before I could return to the other pages such as 19600930.htm and save them. It appears that other folks got so obsessed with the "Date of Death" page, they didn't go back and get the other page using the displayed birth date. I didn't get a chance to read the "19600930.htm" page, since that's when I decided to start saving the pages locally, which is how I know exactly when it was taken down. Does anyone have the "Date of Birth" page? I'd be interested in reading it, since most other folks weren't :-) I can be reached at Lnkd.com?24 RobSimpson 23:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
We were looking for the date of birth page early this morning, we couldn't find it, I bet it was a red herring and never existed. We even looked on the internet way back machine :) I might be able to get a scene capture of the main website tho. A Cooke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.14.13 ( talk) 00:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
It was not removed at 11:15 AM. It is actually still available; just refresh the page multiple times and it will appear. Typing his date of birth does not lead to anything. Kaynbred ( talk) 01:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the update - the site appears to be back and more reliable now. Too many visitors?! RobSimpson 01:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
For those who want to see even more stuff ( Lord Gøn ( talk) 01:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC))
Not sure if it is notable enough to mention, but in the "basement" video by Sodini, he mentions doing "forgiveness exercises as per [Hay?]. This seems likely to be Louise Hay, author of "You Can Heal Your Life" and "Forgiveness/Loving the Inner Child." This, in addition to a book on dating younger women, and an article(?) on Office Politics shown in the "upstairs" video, may give insight into his mental state. BTW, I have no source for the Hay attribution- it's just a guess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.71.80 ( talk) 17:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
All pages are now blank as of August 14, 2009, 03:00 GMT. The last time that I checked for activity was August 9, 2009, at which point the website was still available. Kaynbred ( talk) 02:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Two articles about the same incident. These need to be merged into one article. Skinsmoke ( talk) 15:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The title doesn't really illistrate the incident. People do not know it has the Collier Township shooting they know it as the LA Fitness shooting, thus the name should be changed.-- Golfj21 ( talk) 02:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
If you can explain what part of:
(excerpt from
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events))
“ |
|
” |
you don't understand, I'd be happy to attempt an explanation. — Ched : ? 07:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
It might just be me, but having "A-List Singles" shown on the bookmark toolbar in the screen capture comes across as somewhat inappropriate. Perhaps a screen capture that doesn't show the browser's chrome or at least disables that toolbar would be more appropriate? -- 99.7.67.220 ( talk) 03:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I ran a script that checked all dates from 1900 to 2020, and this page also exists: http://georgesodini.com/20090704.htm
Pretty useless, but whatever. 69.140.141.187 ( talk) 23:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MOSB46PGH 69.140.141.187 ( talk) 00:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
There have already been a few issues on the related events section (currently called See also). There are two problems. First, See also sections need to be bare links with maybe a little bit more to explain why, but not a paragraph.
Second, as a recent RV said, not ever attack that targets a group needs to be included. In fact, I'd argue not every attack that targets women (1/2 the population) should be included either. In fact, other attacks don't need to be included at all, unless there's some direct or uncanny link between the two.
Two conclusions then: 1) All see also links need to be bare (with only the narrowest of exceptions), and 2) related attacks should not be included in the see also section. Shadowjams ( talk) 06:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
OK. This article has been bounced around with different names for a couple days now. I'm going to open an RFC to resolve the issue. Personally, I think the current title: "2009 Collier Township shooting" is acceptable; but, if there is consensus to change it to something reflecting "Pittsburgh", or "PA", or some other title that the community prefers - then that's fine too. Guidelines that should be considered are:
Ched Davis 11:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
From the article:
The attack resulted in four deaths, including that of the perpetrator. Nine other people were injured.
From elsewhere in the article:
Three women died and about 15 other people were wounded before he killed himself.
Unless there’s some distinction I’m unaware of between “injured” and “wounded,” these can’t both be true. Capedia ( talk) 21:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
did he have a funeral? are there living relatives? next of kin? Kingturtle ( talk) 14:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
"These murders, like many other murders of women, including the individual murders of women in domestic violence cases and rape-murders, has produced little examination of the sexism and misogyny behind these crimes.[citation needed] Instead, there is a rush to assert these killings are the acts of lone crazed individuals[citation needed] rather than a reflection of the sexism[citation needed] that causes women to be paid less, be excluded from the clergy of many major religions, be fearful to be out late at night or walk in certain places, be grossly underrepresented in political life except at the lowest echelons.[citation needed]'"
This is wikipedia and such expressions are just out of place, it does not belong even to discuss page! Please post only dry facts and no opinions or criticisms or speeches! If you are angry or emotional do not, please, express it in wikipedia article!
An anon user inserted a section of text into the lead of this article, mentioning four other massacres where women were solely or predominantly targeted. I've linked three of these to their articles - the Montreal Massacre, the Jonesboro Massacre, and the Amish school shooting - but I'm not sure what the other, the 'Penn State killings', refers to. Could it be the Hetzel Union Building shooting? Only one person was killed there, and it doesn't seem that women were the targets. If someone knows what this refers to, please correct the link. Robofish ( talk) 01:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The introduction contains the following. "This shooting was one of several massacres targeting women. Like the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, the Westside Middle School massacre, the killing of the Amish schoolgirls, and the Winnenden school shooting among others, females were targeted for death." While the contributor might be praised for apparently trying to raise awareness, my criticism is based on the premise that the contribution is not appropriately integrated into an encyclopedia article. Such language is inappropriate for the introduction. It is lengthy, repetitive, and problematic. The first problem is that it says "women were targeted" twice. This only needs to be said once in the introduction, and if mentioned again it should be in a separate section entitled "Motive." The list of crimes committed is also problematic because it suggests a connection that is not specifically strong, and it also suggests that mass shootings are an epidemic. While gun violence may be an epidemic, and while one mass shooting is too many, mass shootings actually are rare; in addition, the perpetrators of the crimes listed committed their crimes individually, not as part of a conspired series of crimes. Finally, what is concerning about the contribution is that it seems to be intended to induce an emotional or political response. What I would suggest is that a separate section be created in the article that has some details about the search for a motive or cause, and make it comprehensive. The contribution makes it seem that the cause of the crime has been definitely ascertained, and by listing crimes with similar victims in connection with the implied ascertation, it lumps all the crimes together as having a common cause. -- Tvwatcher ( talk) 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Currently there's a mention of Sodini's sexism, but not a mention of his racism which was also a factor in the motive for the shooting. Apparently, he was angry specifically at young white women for being apparently being more interested in black men than in him. [1] Stonemason89 ( talk) 03:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
So basically this guy went beserk and went on a murder spree because he couldn't get lucky with women? Wow. So sad all around. On the references, I've already been lectured about reliable sources. Is youtube such a source? PumpkinSky ( talk) 14:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states (unsourced):
Anybody know if there's an update on this? — Tom Morris ( talk) 13:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Nobody knows where the "Collier Township" is. But everyone knows the name George Sodini. Please change the article's title. 93.219.145.176 ( talk) 17:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
As opposed to buying a loaded magazine online? Because I hear those are very popular items for criminals to buy online. What difference does it make that three shooters happened to buy spare magazines from this company? A lot of people bought things from them; they were a huge online gun-accessory site. Were they supposed to have done a better job screening their customers before selling them something dangerous like spare magazines or holsters? This is typical of "significant facts" cooked up by clueless media types. "OMG, it turns out that 20% of mass shooters ordered ammunition on CheaperThanDirt.com at some point! A smoking gun!" I suppose the real point of stating these "facts" is so people can be outraged at how easy it is for mass shooters to buy spare magazines online. Nevermind if they were just ordinary civilians at the time, anyone could potentially be a mass shooter, therefore we ought to have full background checks for all magazine and ammunition sales, right? AnnaGoFast ( talk) 10:46, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
At least one online source has released the name of the murderer. I believe it is better to refrain from including the name until it is confirmed by multiple reliable sources. — Ched : ? 10:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure you guys know about his website by now, georgesodini.com/20090804.htm But what I found weird is if you goto that page, and click the "me" link at the top, an image of him appears. If you resize that window with the image, this text is below the image: "The south trailhead is located at the end of Lava Avenue, which has ample parking." Does anyone know what that could mean? 216.220.23.21 ( talk) 15:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
In regards to the website, the article currently states: "The gunman was Carnegie, PA. resident George Sodini, who was 48 years old. On a website registered in his name, Sodini described years of rejection by women and his struggles with alcoholism. The site also chronicles, over a nine-month period, his plans to carry out a shooting."
I don't see anywhere on his website where he chronicles his "plans" to carry out a shooting. I need to read it again to come up with something that goes here, but to me the whole thing just read like a sucicide note. The site also doesn't describe "struggles with alcoholism"... he mentions that he has been sober for 20 years and how he bought a bottle of vodka and some Jack Daniels. This hardly constitutes a chronicling of "struggles with alcohol".... Faethon Ghost ( talk) 16:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Seems as if his website is down. Here's the full text. ( Lord Gøn ( talk) 17:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
The web site was taken down at 11:15 am EDT, just after I has saved the "liveordie.htm" page but before I could return to the other pages such as 19600930.htm and save them. It appears that other folks got so obsessed with the "Date of Death" page, they didn't go back and get the other page using the displayed birth date. I didn't get a chance to read the "19600930.htm" page, since that's when I decided to start saving the pages locally, which is how I know exactly when it was taken down. Does anyone have the "Date of Birth" page? I'd be interested in reading it, since most other folks weren't :-) I can be reached at Lnkd.com?24 RobSimpson 23:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
We were looking for the date of birth page early this morning, we couldn't find it, I bet it was a red herring and never existed. We even looked on the internet way back machine :) I might be able to get a scene capture of the main website tho. A Cooke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.14.13 ( talk) 00:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
It was not removed at 11:15 AM. It is actually still available; just refresh the page multiple times and it will appear. Typing his date of birth does not lead to anything. Kaynbred ( talk) 01:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the update - the site appears to be back and more reliable now. Too many visitors?! RobSimpson 01:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
For those who want to see even more stuff ( Lord Gøn ( talk) 01:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC))
Not sure if it is notable enough to mention, but in the "basement" video by Sodini, he mentions doing "forgiveness exercises as per [Hay?]. This seems likely to be Louise Hay, author of "You Can Heal Your Life" and "Forgiveness/Loving the Inner Child." This, in addition to a book on dating younger women, and an article(?) on Office Politics shown in the "upstairs" video, may give insight into his mental state. BTW, I have no source for the Hay attribution- it's just a guess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.71.80 ( talk) 17:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
All pages are now blank as of August 14, 2009, 03:00 GMT. The last time that I checked for activity was August 9, 2009, at which point the website was still available. Kaynbred ( talk) 02:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Two articles about the same incident. These need to be merged into one article. Skinsmoke ( talk) 15:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The title doesn't really illistrate the incident. People do not know it has the Collier Township shooting they know it as the LA Fitness shooting, thus the name should be changed.-- Golfj21 ( talk) 02:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
If you can explain what part of:
(excerpt from
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events))
“ |
|
” |
you don't understand, I'd be happy to attempt an explanation. — Ched : ? 07:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
It might just be me, but having "A-List Singles" shown on the bookmark toolbar in the screen capture comes across as somewhat inappropriate. Perhaps a screen capture that doesn't show the browser's chrome or at least disables that toolbar would be more appropriate? -- 99.7.67.220 ( talk) 03:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I ran a script that checked all dates from 1900 to 2020, and this page also exists: http://georgesodini.com/20090704.htm
Pretty useless, but whatever. 69.140.141.187 ( talk) 23:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MOSB46PGH 69.140.141.187 ( talk) 00:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
There have already been a few issues on the related events section (currently called See also). There are two problems. First, See also sections need to be bare links with maybe a little bit more to explain why, but not a paragraph.
Second, as a recent RV said, not ever attack that targets a group needs to be included. In fact, I'd argue not every attack that targets women (1/2 the population) should be included either. In fact, other attacks don't need to be included at all, unless there's some direct or uncanny link between the two.
Two conclusions then: 1) All see also links need to be bare (with only the narrowest of exceptions), and 2) related attacks should not be included in the see also section. Shadowjams ( talk) 06:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
OK. This article has been bounced around with different names for a couple days now. I'm going to open an RFC to resolve the issue. Personally, I think the current title: "2009 Collier Township shooting" is acceptable; but, if there is consensus to change it to something reflecting "Pittsburgh", or "PA", or some other title that the community prefers - then that's fine too. Guidelines that should be considered are:
Ched Davis 11:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
From the article:
The attack resulted in four deaths, including that of the perpetrator. Nine other people were injured.
From elsewhere in the article:
Three women died and about 15 other people were wounded before he killed himself.
Unless there’s some distinction I’m unaware of between “injured” and “wounded,” these can’t both be true. Capedia ( talk) 21:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
did he have a funeral? are there living relatives? next of kin? Kingturtle ( talk) 14:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
"These murders, like many other murders of women, including the individual murders of women in domestic violence cases and rape-murders, has produced little examination of the sexism and misogyny behind these crimes.[citation needed] Instead, there is a rush to assert these killings are the acts of lone crazed individuals[citation needed] rather than a reflection of the sexism[citation needed] that causes women to be paid less, be excluded from the clergy of many major religions, be fearful to be out late at night or walk in certain places, be grossly underrepresented in political life except at the lowest echelons.[citation needed]'"
This is wikipedia and such expressions are just out of place, it does not belong even to discuss page! Please post only dry facts and no opinions or criticisms or speeches! If you are angry or emotional do not, please, express it in wikipedia article!
An anon user inserted a section of text into the lead of this article, mentioning four other massacres where women were solely or predominantly targeted. I've linked three of these to their articles - the Montreal Massacre, the Jonesboro Massacre, and the Amish school shooting - but I'm not sure what the other, the 'Penn State killings', refers to. Could it be the Hetzel Union Building shooting? Only one person was killed there, and it doesn't seem that women were the targets. If someone knows what this refers to, please correct the link. Robofish ( talk) 01:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The introduction contains the following. "This shooting was one of several massacres targeting women. Like the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, the Westside Middle School massacre, the killing of the Amish schoolgirls, and the Winnenden school shooting among others, females were targeted for death." While the contributor might be praised for apparently trying to raise awareness, my criticism is based on the premise that the contribution is not appropriately integrated into an encyclopedia article. Such language is inappropriate for the introduction. It is lengthy, repetitive, and problematic. The first problem is that it says "women were targeted" twice. This only needs to be said once in the introduction, and if mentioned again it should be in a separate section entitled "Motive." The list of crimes committed is also problematic because it suggests a connection that is not specifically strong, and it also suggests that mass shootings are an epidemic. While gun violence may be an epidemic, and while one mass shooting is too many, mass shootings actually are rare; in addition, the perpetrators of the crimes listed committed their crimes individually, not as part of a conspired series of crimes. Finally, what is concerning about the contribution is that it seems to be intended to induce an emotional or political response. What I would suggest is that a separate section be created in the article that has some details about the search for a motive or cause, and make it comprehensive. The contribution makes it seem that the cause of the crime has been definitely ascertained, and by listing crimes with similar victims in connection with the implied ascertation, it lumps all the crimes together as having a common cause. -- Tvwatcher ( talk) 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Currently there's a mention of Sodini's sexism, but not a mention of his racism which was also a factor in the motive for the shooting. Apparently, he was angry specifically at young white women for being apparently being more interested in black men than in him. [1] Stonemason89 ( talk) 03:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
So basically this guy went beserk and went on a murder spree because he couldn't get lucky with women? Wow. So sad all around. On the references, I've already been lectured about reliable sources. Is youtube such a source? PumpkinSky ( talk) 14:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states (unsourced):
Anybody know if there's an update on this? — Tom Morris ( talk) 13:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Nobody knows where the "Collier Township" is. But everyone knows the name George Sodini. Please change the article's title. 93.219.145.176 ( talk) 17:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
As opposed to buying a loaded magazine online? Because I hear those are very popular items for criminals to buy online. What difference does it make that three shooters happened to buy spare magazines from this company? A lot of people bought things from them; they were a huge online gun-accessory site. Were they supposed to have done a better job screening their customers before selling them something dangerous like spare magazines or holsters? This is typical of "significant facts" cooked up by clueless media types. "OMG, it turns out that 20% of mass shooters ordered ammunition on CheaperThanDirt.com at some point! A smoking gun!" I suppose the real point of stating these "facts" is so people can be outraged at how easy it is for mass shooters to buy spare magazines online. Nevermind if they were just ordinary civilians at the time, anyone could potentially be a mass shooter, therefore we ought to have full background checks for all magazine and ammunition sales, right? AnnaGoFast ( talk) 10:46, 12 January 2018 (UTC)