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There was a typo in English translated version of the news source, the original is Day.Az in Russian is here, so the wounded soldier was born in 1988: "Во время боев ранение получил Алжанов Ровшан Хазар оглу 1988 г.р., призван в октябре 2006 года военкоматом Гобустанского района.", not 1998. Thanks. Atabek ( talk) 16:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
There is no evidence that Armenia is a belligerent in this engagement. Just because Armenian officials make statements about what happened doesn't mean that their soldiers were there. I don't dispute that Armenian citizens may have worn the uniform of the Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army and serve in Karabakh but that's original research if we try to add that in the article. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Armenian sources claim otherwise:
Do we need more proofs of Armenia's involvement after Oskanian's: "we lost a position"? Atabek ( talk) 11:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
When Oskanyan says "we," he is referring to the Armenian nation and Armenia as a country, not as a state. Armenia (not the much-larger historic Armenia, but Armenian lands under Armenian control) currently comprises the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, and the liberated territory around NKR. Armenians regard the entire 40,000 sqr km area as Armenia--one country, two states (plus the unincorporated territory).-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 22:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In a couple of months I think this article will either be non-notable and up for deletion, or it will (if the event is a precursor to more serious conflict) survive. However, regardless of that outcome, much of the article is simply pointless. In the overly long background section there is simply no need to repeat, verbatim, stuff that already exists in dedicated articles. Do we see in articles about minor skirmishes in WW2 a summary of the entire history of WW2? All that is needed here are wikilinks to the main articles and brief, to the point, summaries. Meowy 21:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed the claim on Armenian victory. Since no territorial changes were achieved, the claims for victory in this skirmish should be taken very cautiously. Grandmaster ( talk) 11:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The Washington post article is a response by the two politicians to the election protests. There's no connection with this ceasefire violation. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is absolutely relevant to the fact that ceasefire violation was not between Azerbaijan and some unknown/undefined "NKR" but between Azerbaijan and Armenia, which are "in conflict over who should control Nagorno-Karabakh" - quoting Sargsyan Atabek ( talk) 09:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to let know that 149.68.31.146 and other edit warring IPs are banned Azad chai ( talk · contribs). Grandmaster ( talk) 09:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
How is that related to Martakert skirmishes? Unless you have an adequate source that proves Armenaia's involvement in the skirmishes, I suggest you stop adding irrelevancies to the articles. VartanM ( talk) 19:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I am still waiting for you provide an explicit source rather than your interpretations. Thanks VartanM ( talk) 00:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster and Atabek have both recently added the word "(unrecognised)" after "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" in this article's conflict infobox. The addition of such qualifying words appears to be contrary to the accepted useage of conflict infoboxes within Wikipedia articles. For example, the word "unrecognised" does not occur in the conflict infobox for any other wikipedia entry concerning Nagorno Karabakh. Nor does the word "unrecognised" (or any similar qualifier) seem to be present in the conflict infobox on any similar wikipedia entries (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gagra ). Maybe these two editors were not aware of these facts. If they now agree with my analysis, I request that both editors say here that they will refrain from re-inserting this word, or similar words, into the conflict infobox for this article, and in the conflict infobox for any Nagorno-Karabakh Republic-related article. If they do not agree, then the alternative will be to initiate a request for comment on the proper use of these infoboxes. Meowy 21:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Meowy, I think you need to give up on Atabek and Grandmaster are "unable to read" or "tried to make sense" and other rhetoric and assume some good faith. It's clear that your position, as always, also now reflects Armenian POV at its core, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the article on such sensitive subject shall be neutral. I brought reference from Sarkissian, where he admits that the conflict is between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Earlier I brought a reference from Panorama.AM where Armenian DM official made statement about Mardakert skirmishes, even before NK separatists, and furthermore here is RFE/RL piece [3], where news of fighting came first, and read the statement by Armenian FM Oskanian:
I don't see NK authorities being mentioned anywhere. I only see the word "we" being used all over the place, meaning Armenia, since Oskanian represented the FOREIGN MINISTRY of this country! Now you may continue pushing Armenian POV as you usually do. However, realistically the negotiations on the status of NK as well as on future relations between Armenia and Azeri nations are carried out between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The fighting on frontline erupted after brutal crackdown of elections in Armenia, not after those in NK. Few separatists in NK, just like everyone in their own backyard, can still gather and proclaim themselves independent all they want, but in reality they're not recognized, are not party to negotiation, neither do they officially exist to insert such POV into encyclopedic articles. As I said earlier, NK is not an independent entity even by Armenian measures, since Armenia allocates NK's annual budget from its own budget. Atabek ( talk) 00:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Grandmaster, if anything that source tends to indicate that Republic of Armenia forces were not involved. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I could be mistaken, but shouldn't the dates in the aftermath section refer to 2008 rather than 2007? Cityraven ( talk) 13:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Cityraven, June 18th (sorry if I missed the signature the first time around, this is my first entry in any Wikipedia discussion)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cityraven ( talk • contribs) 13:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
We deal with two facts here.
1. The skirmishes took place on the territory of the
Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, a de-facto independent Armenian state which has its own
Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army.
2. No source directly indicates that armed forces of the
Republic of Armenia have taken part in the skirmishes.
One should keep in mind that both
Karabakh and Armenia are populated with Armenians. Hence, Armenians of Armenia will not say "they" about Armenians of
Karabakh. We are we, one ethnic group, but two different states. In the light of this, I don't see a reason why Armenia should be mentioned as belligerent in a fight taken place at the de-facto border of Azerbaijan and the
Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.
If there are any objections, please leave a note here along with the relevant references.
--
Ashot (
talk)
18:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2008 Mardakert clashes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Armenia,
Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
There was a typo in English translated version of the news source, the original is Day.Az in Russian is here, so the wounded soldier was born in 1988: "Во время боев ранение получил Алжанов Ровшан Хазар оглу 1988 г.р., призван в октябре 2006 года военкоматом Гобустанского района.", not 1998. Thanks. Atabek ( talk) 16:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
There is no evidence that Armenia is a belligerent in this engagement. Just because Armenian officials make statements about what happened doesn't mean that their soldiers were there. I don't dispute that Armenian citizens may have worn the uniform of the Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army and serve in Karabakh but that's original research if we try to add that in the article. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Armenian sources claim otherwise:
Do we need more proofs of Armenia's involvement after Oskanian's: "we lost a position"? Atabek ( talk) 11:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
When Oskanyan says "we," he is referring to the Armenian nation and Armenia as a country, not as a state. Armenia (not the much-larger historic Armenia, but Armenian lands under Armenian control) currently comprises the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, and the liberated territory around NKR. Armenians regard the entire 40,000 sqr km area as Armenia--one country, two states (plus the unincorporated territory).-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 22:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In a couple of months I think this article will either be non-notable and up for deletion, or it will (if the event is a precursor to more serious conflict) survive. However, regardless of that outcome, much of the article is simply pointless. In the overly long background section there is simply no need to repeat, verbatim, stuff that already exists in dedicated articles. Do we see in articles about minor skirmishes in WW2 a summary of the entire history of WW2? All that is needed here are wikilinks to the main articles and brief, to the point, summaries. Meowy 21:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed the claim on Armenian victory. Since no territorial changes were achieved, the claims for victory in this skirmish should be taken very cautiously. Grandmaster ( talk) 11:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The Washington post article is a response by the two politicians to the election protests. There's no connection with this ceasefire violation. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 04:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is absolutely relevant to the fact that ceasefire violation was not between Azerbaijan and some unknown/undefined "NKR" but between Azerbaijan and Armenia, which are "in conflict over who should control Nagorno-Karabakh" - quoting Sargsyan Atabek ( talk) 09:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to let know that 149.68.31.146 and other edit warring IPs are banned Azad chai ( talk · contribs). Grandmaster ( talk) 09:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
How is that related to Martakert skirmishes? Unless you have an adequate source that proves Armenaia's involvement in the skirmishes, I suggest you stop adding irrelevancies to the articles. VartanM ( talk) 19:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I am still waiting for you provide an explicit source rather than your interpretations. Thanks VartanM ( talk) 00:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster and Atabek have both recently added the word "(unrecognised)" after "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" in this article's conflict infobox. The addition of such qualifying words appears to be contrary to the accepted useage of conflict infoboxes within Wikipedia articles. For example, the word "unrecognised" does not occur in the conflict infobox for any other wikipedia entry concerning Nagorno Karabakh. Nor does the word "unrecognised" (or any similar qualifier) seem to be present in the conflict infobox on any similar wikipedia entries (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gagra ). Maybe these two editors were not aware of these facts. If they now agree with my analysis, I request that both editors say here that they will refrain from re-inserting this word, or similar words, into the conflict infobox for this article, and in the conflict infobox for any Nagorno-Karabakh Republic-related article. If they do not agree, then the alternative will be to initiate a request for comment on the proper use of these infoboxes. Meowy 21:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Meowy, I think you need to give up on Atabek and Grandmaster are "unable to read" or "tried to make sense" and other rhetoric and assume some good faith. It's clear that your position, as always, also now reflects Armenian POV at its core, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the article on such sensitive subject shall be neutral. I brought reference from Sarkissian, where he admits that the conflict is between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Earlier I brought a reference from Panorama.AM where Armenian DM official made statement about Mardakert skirmishes, even before NK separatists, and furthermore here is RFE/RL piece [3], where news of fighting came first, and read the statement by Armenian FM Oskanian:
I don't see NK authorities being mentioned anywhere. I only see the word "we" being used all over the place, meaning Armenia, since Oskanian represented the FOREIGN MINISTRY of this country! Now you may continue pushing Armenian POV as you usually do. However, realistically the negotiations on the status of NK as well as on future relations between Armenia and Azeri nations are carried out between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The fighting on frontline erupted after brutal crackdown of elections in Armenia, not after those in NK. Few separatists in NK, just like everyone in their own backyard, can still gather and proclaim themselves independent all they want, but in reality they're not recognized, are not party to negotiation, neither do they officially exist to insert such POV into encyclopedic articles. As I said earlier, NK is not an independent entity even by Armenian measures, since Armenia allocates NK's annual budget from its own budget. Atabek ( talk) 00:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Grandmaster, if anything that source tends to indicate that Republic of Armenia forces were not involved. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I could be mistaken, but shouldn't the dates in the aftermath section refer to 2008 rather than 2007? Cityraven ( talk) 13:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Cityraven, June 18th (sorry if I missed the signature the first time around, this is my first entry in any Wikipedia discussion)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cityraven ( talk • contribs) 13:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
We deal with two facts here.
1. The skirmishes took place on the territory of the
Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, a de-facto independent Armenian state which has its own
Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army.
2. No source directly indicates that armed forces of the
Republic of Armenia have taken part in the skirmishes.
One should keep in mind that both
Karabakh and Armenia are populated with Armenians. Hence, Armenians of Armenia will not say "they" about Armenians of
Karabakh. We are we, one ethnic group, but two different states. In the light of this, I don't see a reason why Armenia should be mentioned as belligerent in a fight taken place at the de-facto border of Azerbaijan and the
Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.
If there are any objections, please leave a note here along with the relevant references.
--
Ashot (
talk)
18:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)