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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Note: The purpose of this page is to discuss how the article is to be written and/or formatted, not to the actual content per se. For example, questions about whether a particular phrasing is neutral vs. supporting either side are appropriate to discuss om this page. Questions about whether the subject it covers is a good idea or a bad one are not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rfc1394 ( talk • contribs) 17:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
A district court ruled against it, but I've understood that an appellate court ruling is ultimately necessary in California to actually invalidate the ballot initiative. JayHubie ( talk) 03:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The hold has been removed. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.159.125 ( talk) 22:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
But the U.S. Supreme Court never ruled on the actual merits of Prop 8, only on the standing of those who appealed the lower court striking it down. If the USSC has not directly ruled on Prop 8, how can it be permanently dead? JayHubie ( talk) 06:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Some commentators expressed concern about the implications of the Supreme Court ruling, noting that voter initiatives existed precisely for when voters felt the State was insufficiently responsive to their concerns or as a way for the people to assert their rights, and that elected officials should not have the ability to nullify such laws simply by choosing not to defend them. [2] [3]
First, what commentators? Second...when reading over this summary of the sources, it appears to have taken what is there and expanded with original research. Are there any issues with this? Thoughts?-- Amadscientist ( talk) 18:39, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Added reflist so references are visible. -- Javaweb ( talk)Javaweb
References
Some commentators, such as law professor Erwin Chemerinsky, [1] and Jon Coupal, president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association [2] expressed concern about the implications of the Supreme Court ruling, noting that voter initiatives existed precisely for when voters felt the State was insufficiently responsive to their concerns or as a way for the people to assert their rights, and that elected officials should not have the ability to nullify such laws simply by choosing not to defend them. [1] [2] [3]
I think this is becoming a bit of a coatrack and there are some serious NPOV issues with the way this is written verses the sources. The original source for the statement about some commentators is actually referring to "Activists on both sides..." yet the section is used to hang the opinion and names of people and groups that all seem to be from one side. The attributed section was not done properly. If you are using an opinion piece you attribute a quote or the idea presented in the opinion piece directly. Opinion can not be used to reference facts and the should be no undue weight to that opinion so it seems a bit rash to make that source formatted to be used multiple times.-- Amadscientist ( talk) 00:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
References
Many who applaud that result are worried about how it was reached. They fear the court has in effect granted a veto to officials in California (and the 26 other states that have similar ballot-initiative systems) over democratically passed laws that they dislike....Given that the whole point of ballot initiatives is to let voters bypass politicians, that seems perverse.
I'm restoring the Chemerinsky paragraph that was just deleted. It represents an important viewpoint, indeed, it is pretty much what the four dissenting justices said. If it needs improvement, improve it or make suggestions here, but eliminating it from the article suppresses an opinion that people on both sides of the Prop 8 issue have expressed. -- agr ( talk) 13:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Right now, the article says this:
On June 26, 2013, the Supreme Court of the United States issued its ruling on the appeal in the case Hollingsworth v. Perry, affirming that in accordance with numerous precedents, proponents of initiatives such as Proposition 8 did not possess legal standing in their own right to defend the resulting law in federal court, either to the Supreme Court or (previously) to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
I feel like the "affirming that in accordance with numerous precedents" part of this is original research that someone made up and that has no citation at all. The link is just to the WP article on the general Article III case and controversy requirement. There's no reference to somewhere in the ruling where they claimed that their opinion was "in accordance with numerous precedents" and I don't think there are very many precedents on this point at all. (There's Arizonans for Official English v. Arizona, but they never actually decided this issue.) In fact, my understanding is that the court only said, "we've never before recognized standing in this circumstance and we won't do so now," which is completely different than saying "based on all these previous decisions standing can't be recognized here." Even if the opinion did say that it was "in accordance with numerous precedents," the appropriate article text would be "the Court stated that its precedents required it to find that the official proponents lack standing," or something. The way it's written now it suggests that it is actually true that the ruling is "in accordance with numerous precedents", rather than that the Court portrayed its opinion as consistent with numerous precedents, which is a crucial difference.
At any rate, the (de)merits of the sentence itself are kind of beside the point, because unsourced original research is just not appropriate for this article (or any article). Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Am I overlooking something? Or should this text be revised? (I suggested changing it simply remove "in accordance with numerous precedents," from the sentence, but I was reverted without much of an explanation.) AgnosticAphid talk 22:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
From page 7 of the Hollingsworth opinion:
This portion supports the phrase "affirming that in accordance with numerous precedents" and should be used as a reference for keeping it.
Teammm
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Re. the objection to my addition, "Having overruled the California Supreme Court's ruling that the proponents did have standing, the US Supreme Court":
SCOTUS "Held: Petitioners did not have standing to appeal the District Court’s order."
SCOTCA was formally asked to rule on "the rights under California law of the official proponents of an initiative measure to defend the constitutionality of that measure upon its adoption by the People when the state officers charged with the laws' enforcement, including the Attorney General, refuse to provide such a defense or appeal a judgment declaring the measure unconstitutional."
The majority saw itself as correcting the California Supreme Court, claiming that "standing in federal court is a question of federal law, not state law. … States cannot [give] private parties who otherwise lack standing a ticket to the federal courthouse."
ISTCM that the minority did feel that SCOTCA had been overruled, stating,
"But the State Supreme Court’s definition of proponents’ powers is binding on this Court. And that definition is fully sufficient to establish the standing and adversity that are requisites for justiciability under Article III of the United States Constitution. …
It is for California, not this Court, to determine whether and to what extent the Elections Code provisions are instructive and relevant in determining the authority of proponents to assert the State’s interest in postenactment judicial proceedings. … There is no basis for this Court to set aside the California Supreme Court’s determination of state law. …
The Court’s opinion disrespects and disparages both the political process in California and the well-stated opinion of the California Supreme Court in this case.
The California Supreme Court, not this Court, expresses concern for vigorous representation;
the California Supreme Court, not this Court, recognizes the necessity to avoid conflicts of interest;
the California Supreme Court, not this Court, comprehends the real interest at stake in this litigation and identifies the most proper party to defend that interest.
The California Supreme Court’s opinion reflects a better understanding of the dynamics and principles of Article III than does this Court’s opinion."
No? -- Elvey ( talk) 20:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
We should not be trying to reduce a complex legal question to sound bites. The US Supreme Court did not "overrule" the California Supreme Court. It overruled the US Court of Appeals. The US Court of Appeals had asked the California Supreme Court for an advisory opinion on whether the Prop 8 opponents should have standing to sue under California law. The California Supreme Court issued an opinion, not a ruling, as a state court has no authority to grant standing in federal court. It was the US Court of Appeals that granted standing and their decision was what the US Supreme Court overruled. The minority's concern was about the impact the US Supreme Court's opinion would have on the initiative process and they felt the arguments in California court's opinion were persuasive in that regard, but the majority concluded that giving a citizens group with no specific injury federal standing violated numerous precedents.-- agr ( talk) 14:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
If you find my way of explaining the minority judges' view unacceptable, then you need to suggest another way of expressing it. Simply deleting my attempt to share their view is not a reasonable solution. Agreed? Feel free to replace what I've done with something you feel is better way of doing that (or explain why the minority view doesn't deserve to be mentioned if you actually want to make that claim.) Do not simply remove the attempt and provide no alternative. Mr X's accusation of OR is unfounded; what he removed expresses what the minority said. -- Elvey ( talk) 04:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
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Repair Dead link (footnote #103):
http://www.noonprop8.com/about/who-opposes-prop-8
New Live link: http://digital.library.ucla.edu/websites/2008_993_109/about/who-opposes-prop-8/index.htm. Accessed: 2013-08-01. (Archived by WebCite® at http://www.webcitation.org/6IYfFxwAo)
Tktim9 ( talk) 23:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Editor Elvey asked, "If there's no right to defend a challenged law in federal court, why did SCOTUS allow the ruling by Walker to stand?"
If you challenge a state law in Federal Court,
Either way, the outcome is the same: that state law is invalidated. Was that the logic in the decision? -- Javaweb ( talk) 01:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Javaweb
Agreed:More suitable for a law journal than in an article for non-lawyers. –– Javaweb ( talk) 04:08, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Javaweb
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The statments reguarding the vote by African Americans is highly misleading. First the Miltofsky numbers polled a realtively small number of African American voters as a part of a larger survey. Minority voting estimates in exit polls are suspect since by definition they are held to a small percentage of a larger poll to avoid other biases. Thus a very valid surve of n=2000, may survery fewer than 200 black or hispanic voters. Since polls are not conducted at all sites, but a limited crossection there is always risk that minority voters actually surveyed are not representative of that sub-group.
Futher the article suggests that the survey was backed up by 2 others by AP and CNN when in fact all 3 were one and the same poll. Worse, The 75% claim is not what the results said.
The Analysis by NYU funded by the Haas foundation for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute is dismissed as having only sampled a few counties. In fact it was a much more comprehensive review of survery data that included several surveys both before and after the election. A subset of their data was conducted in the 5 counties that included over 2/3 of African American voters in the state and bye itself contacted more black voters than Mitofsky. but the research goes beyond that reviewing other surveys of African Americans in California and Nationwide. The data showed African Americans support gay marriage at rates between 41 and 58%, again suggesting that the Mitofsky data was well outside expectaions.
In addition it perpetuates the illusion that African Americans swung the decision. In fact, even using the inflated estimates of 70% for prop 8 and 10% of voters (NYU says more like 7%), the math dictates that if no Black person had voted in the election, the bill would have passed.
Dymondog ( talk) 23:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Not done: An edit request must be in the form of "please change X to Y". Please say exactly what you want to change and provide sources which support any factual changes. Thanks,
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I've noticed this in a few areas, but primary the summary of the text.
Proposition 8 consisted of two sections. Its full text was... The text itself is still in the California Constitution, despite it being 'stricken down'. All that really happened was the federal court made CA unable to enforce it. It is still technically there. When a court 'strikes down' a law, it still exists. 68.110.28.104 ( talk) 02:54, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Actually that is not accurate. You see, I have a copy of the California Constitution before proposition 8 which is now the actual constitution of the state. After the stay was lifted the constitution reverted back to before that was added. Just those copies that were printed have that in it. Now, those are no longer valid copies of the California Constitution. This wasn't a law. prop 22 was. This was an attempt to alter the constitution. Since that was found unconstitutional...it is now technically gone. New printing is all that is required from what I understand.-- Amadscientist ( talk) 18:45, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
No, you're incorrect. Proposition 8 created a new section (7.5) to the California Constitution, it did, in fact, alter the State Constition to add a new section. That section was found unconstitutional, but finding it unconstitutional does not actually strike the text, it simply makes it unenforceable. I'll explain this in the next paragraph.
Referring to a law as being 'struck down' is short hand for 'being found unenforceable by a court'. Proposition 8 remains part of the California Constitution but is unenforceable. A court does not actually strike the text of a law and delete it, that requires the legislature or the voters to actually make an affirmative act to remove it unless the state's constitution specifically says that the declaration of a statute or portion of the constitution being found to be unconstitutional repeals it. (Which is not the case anywhere that I know of.) The text will forever be a part of California's constitution until removed either by a constitutional amendment or the voters deciding by initiative to remove or repeal it. Some printers might choose to drop the provision for convenience or not to confuse people, but the text itself technically was not deleted from the State Constitution, it simply is ineffective and cannot be enforced. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 01:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
On 20 September 2011 NuclearWarfare moved "California Proposition 8 (2008)" to "California Proposition 8": per WP:PRECISE). The name "California Proposition 8 (2008)" had prevailed for many years. There was no discussion at the time of the move. I do not agree that WP:Precise calls for this name change, and I am reversing the change, because it is inconsistent with Wikipedia conventions for California proposition names. Starting with Category:California ballot propositions, 2012 and working backwards to 2006, there are 42 articles. Of these, except for this article and Marsy's Law, which was Proposition 9 in 2008, and two articles that group propositions together, all article names are in the form California Proposition nn (yyyy) where nn is the proposition number and yyyy is the year.
Therefore this article must be restored to California Proposition 8 (2008), and I have done so. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 09:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I researched further. With the exception of California Proposition 6 (1978) redirecting to Briggs Initiative and California Proposition 9 (2008) redirecting to Marsy's Law, and two articles grouping 2008 propositions, all Wikipedia articles about California ballot propositions since 1970 have titles of the form California Proposition nn (yyyy) where nn is the proposition number and yyyy is the year. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 16:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
hello i am angry and very new to wiki editing but this page is so horrendously poorly written that i was angry enough to make a fool of myself online. I'd like to request that whoever fixes this thing im writing here either fix the poor nature of the article, as described below, or puts up one of those banners that warns people that the article is very poorly written. The poor nature of the article being it is unnecessarily difficult to tell what prop 8 is aside from a proposition regarding gay marriage in california in 2008. It should be made clear whether prop 8 was hindering gay marriage or attempting to advance it. Sorry for writing in this way, the FAQ was no help, times got desparate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.185.188.24 ( talk) 06:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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Under other in the Campaign section where the mention of the action by the Porterville City Council here is a link to the Resolution with the vote info https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ee8bmmwlylt0d9/Reso%2083-2008_09-02-08.pdf?dl=0 Brock93257 ( talk) 11:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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Why is it that there is no mention of the usage of campaign donation data to attack supporters of the subject in this article? It has been covered in reliable sources such as the NYT, Washington Times, HuffPo, KESQ, and elsewhere. Ballotpedia actually has a good section on this.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:11, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Here are some additional reliable sources:
-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:30, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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In the Post-election events section, there is a substantial amount of duplication between the Immediate response and Fines subsections, including duplication of an image. If someone could remove the duplication that would be great! 192.91.171.36 ( talk) 13:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
in an opinion page by The New York Times, the Times called the backlash a "mob veto," and urged violence against the supporters to cease, signed on by academics, politicians and writers.
This is false. There's no citation for it because no such column existed. An ad, purchased by The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, ran in the NY Times using the phrase "mob veto". It wasn't a column, and shouldn't be attributed to the paper. Possibly redundant (definitely more political) page Protests against Proposition 8 supporters is more accurate. Thank you Paulspyder ( talk) 00:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I must have been a lot more tired last night than I thought because this morning I can see the real issue is stating that the Times called the backlash a "mob veto. That is inaccurate. It was a special interest group that made the claim not the paper.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 19:59, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
That whole paragraph at the end of the lede should be placed somewhere in the body. It's really awkward to have something so detailed in the lede. TheLonelyGoatherder ( talk) 02:37, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
In section 3.3.1, the first sentence is grammatically incorrect. The word "while" is used twice, the first use of "while" should be removed to fix the sentence. H, H, R... character ( talk) 05:27, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
I saw a reference to Prop 8 on a CDP article. I hovered over it and all it said was that it was a proposition and constitutional amendment that passed. Could have been a tax law, or bail reform, or anything. Given MOS:FIRST, it seems to me that the first sentence should at least introduce the topic of the law. Also, describing it as "passed" but not saying it is no longer in effect also seems to bury the lead.
It seems to be overly technical to have both the proposition and constitutional amendment references, though they are technically correct.
Discuss. Chris vLS ( talk) 16:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
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Paragraph 5 needs a citation where it claims opponents of proposition 8 claiming “opponents publicly sham[ed] supporters by disclosing their names and addresses online and boycotting proponents' businesses and employers to others threatening supporters with murder and vandalizing their homes and property.” No citation is given, and no where does it say where it is getting these examples from. 164.82.30.20 ( talk) 16:47, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Note: The purpose of this page is to discuss how the article is to be written and/or formatted, not to the actual content per se. For example, questions about whether a particular phrasing is neutral vs. supporting either side are appropriate to discuss om this page. Questions about whether the subject it covers is a good idea or a bad one are not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rfc1394 ( talk • contribs) 17:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
A district court ruled against it, but I've understood that an appellate court ruling is ultimately necessary in California to actually invalidate the ballot initiative. JayHubie ( talk) 03:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The hold has been removed. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.159.125 ( talk) 22:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
But the U.S. Supreme Court never ruled on the actual merits of Prop 8, only on the standing of those who appealed the lower court striking it down. If the USSC has not directly ruled on Prop 8, how can it be permanently dead? JayHubie ( talk) 06:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Some commentators expressed concern about the implications of the Supreme Court ruling, noting that voter initiatives existed precisely for when voters felt the State was insufficiently responsive to their concerns or as a way for the people to assert their rights, and that elected officials should not have the ability to nullify such laws simply by choosing not to defend them. [2] [3]
First, what commentators? Second...when reading over this summary of the sources, it appears to have taken what is there and expanded with original research. Are there any issues with this? Thoughts?-- Amadscientist ( talk) 18:39, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Added reflist so references are visible. -- Javaweb ( talk)Javaweb
References
Some commentators, such as law professor Erwin Chemerinsky, [1] and Jon Coupal, president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association [2] expressed concern about the implications of the Supreme Court ruling, noting that voter initiatives existed precisely for when voters felt the State was insufficiently responsive to their concerns or as a way for the people to assert their rights, and that elected officials should not have the ability to nullify such laws simply by choosing not to defend them. [1] [2] [3]
I think this is becoming a bit of a coatrack and there are some serious NPOV issues with the way this is written verses the sources. The original source for the statement about some commentators is actually referring to "Activists on both sides..." yet the section is used to hang the opinion and names of people and groups that all seem to be from one side. The attributed section was not done properly. If you are using an opinion piece you attribute a quote or the idea presented in the opinion piece directly. Opinion can not be used to reference facts and the should be no undue weight to that opinion so it seems a bit rash to make that source formatted to be used multiple times.-- Amadscientist ( talk) 00:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
References
Many who applaud that result are worried about how it was reached. They fear the court has in effect granted a veto to officials in California (and the 26 other states that have similar ballot-initiative systems) over democratically passed laws that they dislike....Given that the whole point of ballot initiatives is to let voters bypass politicians, that seems perverse.
I'm restoring the Chemerinsky paragraph that was just deleted. It represents an important viewpoint, indeed, it is pretty much what the four dissenting justices said. If it needs improvement, improve it or make suggestions here, but eliminating it from the article suppresses an opinion that people on both sides of the Prop 8 issue have expressed. -- agr ( talk) 13:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Right now, the article says this:
On June 26, 2013, the Supreme Court of the United States issued its ruling on the appeal in the case Hollingsworth v. Perry, affirming that in accordance with numerous precedents, proponents of initiatives such as Proposition 8 did not possess legal standing in their own right to defend the resulting law in federal court, either to the Supreme Court or (previously) to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
I feel like the "affirming that in accordance with numerous precedents" part of this is original research that someone made up and that has no citation at all. The link is just to the WP article on the general Article III case and controversy requirement. There's no reference to somewhere in the ruling where they claimed that their opinion was "in accordance with numerous precedents" and I don't think there are very many precedents on this point at all. (There's Arizonans for Official English v. Arizona, but they never actually decided this issue.) In fact, my understanding is that the court only said, "we've never before recognized standing in this circumstance and we won't do so now," which is completely different than saying "based on all these previous decisions standing can't be recognized here." Even if the opinion did say that it was "in accordance with numerous precedents," the appropriate article text would be "the Court stated that its precedents required it to find that the official proponents lack standing," or something. The way it's written now it suggests that it is actually true that the ruling is "in accordance with numerous precedents", rather than that the Court portrayed its opinion as consistent with numerous precedents, which is a crucial difference.
At any rate, the (de)merits of the sentence itself are kind of beside the point, because unsourced original research is just not appropriate for this article (or any article). Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Am I overlooking something? Or should this text be revised? (I suggested changing it simply remove "in accordance with numerous precedents," from the sentence, but I was reverted without much of an explanation.) AgnosticAphid talk 22:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
From page 7 of the Hollingsworth opinion:
This portion supports the phrase "affirming that in accordance with numerous precedents" and should be used as a reference for keeping it.
Teammm
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19:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Re. the objection to my addition, "Having overruled the California Supreme Court's ruling that the proponents did have standing, the US Supreme Court":
SCOTUS "Held: Petitioners did not have standing to appeal the District Court’s order."
SCOTCA was formally asked to rule on "the rights under California law of the official proponents of an initiative measure to defend the constitutionality of that measure upon its adoption by the People when the state officers charged with the laws' enforcement, including the Attorney General, refuse to provide such a defense or appeal a judgment declaring the measure unconstitutional."
The majority saw itself as correcting the California Supreme Court, claiming that "standing in federal court is a question of federal law, not state law. … States cannot [give] private parties who otherwise lack standing a ticket to the federal courthouse."
ISTCM that the minority did feel that SCOTCA had been overruled, stating,
"But the State Supreme Court’s definition of proponents’ powers is binding on this Court. And that definition is fully sufficient to establish the standing and adversity that are requisites for justiciability under Article III of the United States Constitution. …
It is for California, not this Court, to determine whether and to what extent the Elections Code provisions are instructive and relevant in determining the authority of proponents to assert the State’s interest in postenactment judicial proceedings. … There is no basis for this Court to set aside the California Supreme Court’s determination of state law. …
The Court’s opinion disrespects and disparages both the political process in California and the well-stated opinion of the California Supreme Court in this case.
The California Supreme Court, not this Court, expresses concern for vigorous representation;
the California Supreme Court, not this Court, recognizes the necessity to avoid conflicts of interest;
the California Supreme Court, not this Court, comprehends the real interest at stake in this litigation and identifies the most proper party to defend that interest.
The California Supreme Court’s opinion reflects a better understanding of the dynamics and principles of Article III than does this Court’s opinion."
No? -- Elvey ( talk) 20:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
We should not be trying to reduce a complex legal question to sound bites. The US Supreme Court did not "overrule" the California Supreme Court. It overruled the US Court of Appeals. The US Court of Appeals had asked the California Supreme Court for an advisory opinion on whether the Prop 8 opponents should have standing to sue under California law. The California Supreme Court issued an opinion, not a ruling, as a state court has no authority to grant standing in federal court. It was the US Court of Appeals that granted standing and their decision was what the US Supreme Court overruled. The minority's concern was about the impact the US Supreme Court's opinion would have on the initiative process and they felt the arguments in California court's opinion were persuasive in that regard, but the majority concluded that giving a citizens group with no specific injury federal standing violated numerous precedents.-- agr ( talk) 14:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
If you find my way of explaining the minority judges' view unacceptable, then you need to suggest another way of expressing it. Simply deleting my attempt to share their view is not a reasonable solution. Agreed? Feel free to replace what I've done with something you feel is better way of doing that (or explain why the minority view doesn't deserve to be mentioned if you actually want to make that claim.) Do not simply remove the attempt and provide no alternative. Mr X's accusation of OR is unfounded; what he removed expresses what the minority said. -- Elvey ( talk) 04:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
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Repair Dead link (footnote #103):
http://www.noonprop8.com/about/who-opposes-prop-8
New Live link: http://digital.library.ucla.edu/websites/2008_993_109/about/who-opposes-prop-8/index.htm. Accessed: 2013-08-01. (Archived by WebCite® at http://www.webcitation.org/6IYfFxwAo)
Tktim9 ( talk) 23:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Editor Elvey asked, "If there's no right to defend a challenged law in federal court, why did SCOTUS allow the ruling by Walker to stand?"
If you challenge a state law in Federal Court,
Either way, the outcome is the same: that state law is invalidated. Was that the logic in the decision? -- Javaweb ( talk) 01:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Javaweb
Agreed:More suitable for a law journal than in an article for non-lawyers. –– Javaweb ( talk) 04:08, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Javaweb
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The statments reguarding the vote by African Americans is highly misleading. First the Miltofsky numbers polled a realtively small number of African American voters as a part of a larger survey. Minority voting estimates in exit polls are suspect since by definition they are held to a small percentage of a larger poll to avoid other biases. Thus a very valid surve of n=2000, may survery fewer than 200 black or hispanic voters. Since polls are not conducted at all sites, but a limited crossection there is always risk that minority voters actually surveyed are not representative of that sub-group.
Futher the article suggests that the survey was backed up by 2 others by AP and CNN when in fact all 3 were one and the same poll. Worse, The 75% claim is not what the results said.
The Analysis by NYU funded by the Haas foundation for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute is dismissed as having only sampled a few counties. In fact it was a much more comprehensive review of survery data that included several surveys both before and after the election. A subset of their data was conducted in the 5 counties that included over 2/3 of African American voters in the state and bye itself contacted more black voters than Mitofsky. but the research goes beyond that reviewing other surveys of African Americans in California and Nationwide. The data showed African Americans support gay marriage at rates between 41 and 58%, again suggesting that the Mitofsky data was well outside expectaions.
In addition it perpetuates the illusion that African Americans swung the decision. In fact, even using the inflated estimates of 70% for prop 8 and 10% of voters (NYU says more like 7%), the math dictates that if no Black person had voted in the election, the bill would have passed.
Dymondog ( talk) 23:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Not done: An edit request must be in the form of "please change X to Y". Please say exactly what you want to change and provide sources which support any factual changes. Thanks,
Celestra (
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19:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
I've noticed this in a few areas, but primary the summary of the text.
Proposition 8 consisted of two sections. Its full text was... The text itself is still in the California Constitution, despite it being 'stricken down'. All that really happened was the federal court made CA unable to enforce it. It is still technically there. When a court 'strikes down' a law, it still exists. 68.110.28.104 ( talk) 02:54, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Actually that is not accurate. You see, I have a copy of the California Constitution before proposition 8 which is now the actual constitution of the state. After the stay was lifted the constitution reverted back to before that was added. Just those copies that were printed have that in it. Now, those are no longer valid copies of the California Constitution. This wasn't a law. prop 22 was. This was an attempt to alter the constitution. Since that was found unconstitutional...it is now technically gone. New printing is all that is required from what I understand.-- Amadscientist ( talk) 18:45, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
No, you're incorrect. Proposition 8 created a new section (7.5) to the California Constitution, it did, in fact, alter the State Constition to add a new section. That section was found unconstitutional, but finding it unconstitutional does not actually strike the text, it simply makes it unenforceable. I'll explain this in the next paragraph.
Referring to a law as being 'struck down' is short hand for 'being found unenforceable by a court'. Proposition 8 remains part of the California Constitution but is unenforceable. A court does not actually strike the text of a law and delete it, that requires the legislature or the voters to actually make an affirmative act to remove it unless the state's constitution specifically says that the declaration of a statute or portion of the constitution being found to be unconstitutional repeals it. (Which is not the case anywhere that I know of.) The text will forever be a part of California's constitution until removed either by a constitutional amendment or the voters deciding by initiative to remove or repeal it. Some printers might choose to drop the provision for convenience or not to confuse people, but the text itself technically was not deleted from the State Constitution, it simply is ineffective and cannot be enforced. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) ( talk) 01:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
On 20 September 2011 NuclearWarfare moved "California Proposition 8 (2008)" to "California Proposition 8": per WP:PRECISE). The name "California Proposition 8 (2008)" had prevailed for many years. There was no discussion at the time of the move. I do not agree that WP:Precise calls for this name change, and I am reversing the change, because it is inconsistent with Wikipedia conventions for California proposition names. Starting with Category:California ballot propositions, 2012 and working backwards to 2006, there are 42 articles. Of these, except for this article and Marsy's Law, which was Proposition 9 in 2008, and two articles that group propositions together, all article names are in the form California Proposition nn (yyyy) where nn is the proposition number and yyyy is the year.
Therefore this article must be restored to California Proposition 8 (2008), and I have done so. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 09:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I researched further. With the exception of California Proposition 6 (1978) redirecting to Briggs Initiative and California Proposition 9 (2008) redirecting to Marsy's Law, and two articles grouping 2008 propositions, all Wikipedia articles about California ballot propositions since 1970 have titles of the form California Proposition nn (yyyy) where nn is the proposition number and yyyy is the year. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 16:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
hello i am angry and very new to wiki editing but this page is so horrendously poorly written that i was angry enough to make a fool of myself online. I'd like to request that whoever fixes this thing im writing here either fix the poor nature of the article, as described below, or puts up one of those banners that warns people that the article is very poorly written. The poor nature of the article being it is unnecessarily difficult to tell what prop 8 is aside from a proposition regarding gay marriage in california in 2008. It should be made clear whether prop 8 was hindering gay marriage or attempting to advance it. Sorry for writing in this way, the FAQ was no help, times got desparate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.185.188.24 ( talk) 06:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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Under other in the Campaign section where the mention of the action by the Porterville City Council here is a link to the Resolution with the vote info https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ee8bmmwlylt0d9/Reso%2083-2008_09-02-08.pdf?dl=0 Brock93257 ( talk) 11:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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Why is it that there is no mention of the usage of campaign donation data to attack supporters of the subject in this article? It has been covered in reliable sources such as the NYT, Washington Times, HuffPo, KESQ, and elsewhere. Ballotpedia actually has a good section on this.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:11, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Here are some additional reliable sources:
-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:30, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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In the Post-election events section, there is a substantial amount of duplication between the Immediate response and Fines subsections, including duplication of an image. If someone could remove the duplication that would be great! 192.91.171.36 ( talk) 13:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
in an opinion page by The New York Times, the Times called the backlash a "mob veto," and urged violence against the supporters to cease, signed on by academics, politicians and writers.
This is false. There's no citation for it because no such column existed. An ad, purchased by The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, ran in the NY Times using the phrase "mob veto". It wasn't a column, and shouldn't be attributed to the paper. Possibly redundant (definitely more political) page Protests against Proposition 8 supporters is more accurate. Thank you Paulspyder ( talk) 00:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I must have been a lot more tired last night than I thought because this morning I can see the real issue is stating that the Times called the backlash a "mob veto. That is inaccurate. It was a special interest group that made the claim not the paper.-- Mark Miller ( talk) 19:59, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
That whole paragraph at the end of the lede should be placed somewhere in the body. It's really awkward to have something so detailed in the lede. TheLonelyGoatherder ( talk) 02:37, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
In section 3.3.1, the first sentence is grammatically incorrect. The word "while" is used twice, the first use of "while" should be removed to fix the sentence. H, H, R... character ( talk) 05:27, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
I saw a reference to Prop 8 on a CDP article. I hovered over it and all it said was that it was a proposition and constitutional amendment that passed. Could have been a tax law, or bail reform, or anything. Given MOS:FIRST, it seems to me that the first sentence should at least introduce the topic of the law. Also, describing it as "passed" but not saying it is no longer in effect also seems to bury the lead.
It seems to be overly technical to have both the proposition and constitutional amendment references, though they are technically correct.
Discuss. Chris vLS ( talk) 16:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
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Paragraph 5 needs a citation where it claims opponents of proposition 8 claiming “opponents publicly sham[ed] supporters by disclosing their names and addresses online and boycotting proponents' businesses and employers to others threatening supporters with murder and vandalizing their homes and property.” No citation is given, and no where does it say where it is getting these examples from. 164.82.30.20 ( talk) 16:47, 12 October 2022 (UTC)