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I changed the findings of the UC Davis AIC study. If you read the study (or even just the executive summary) it clearly says that there will likely be no additional costs to consumers from the initiative. I also clarified that the study is only an economic analysis of the initiative and has absolutely no recommendations regarding the welfare impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wps4738 ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Article seems highly biased. I'm not familiar enough with the issue to edit it myself but should changes be considered?
I think it's becoming less biased and progressing fairly well. It does need some finesse and layout edits though ( Marcino ( talk) 18:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC))
There were a few sentences that were definitely biased so I took them out. Alice1869 ( talk) 00:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)Alice1869
I don't understand why the sentence about HSUS freely admitting that the Prop is almost entirely focused on battery cages is biased. They themselves have said that veal is not an issue, and gestation crates are minimal. I am re-inserting the sentence. Poliwatcher ( talk) 16:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I re-inserted the sentence, but am open to debate that perhaps it should go in a diff part of article. I just think that since the opening paragraph explicitly states that the prop deals w/ gestation/veal crates and battery cages (which is true, the actual language does), this does not accurately reflect the reality in CA even by HSUS' own admission.
I also suggest that we be at least a little more specific when we mention which sentences we delete/insert. Poliwatcher ( talk) 16:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi Madaxecho, I changed your edit stating that the Inititiative is known as "The Prevention to Farm Animal Cruelty Act" because it was amended by Sec of State on July 03, 2008 to "Standards for Confining Farm Animals". I sourced both so that there would be no confusion. Poliwatcher ( talk) 17:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I've seldom seen a WP entry with so many weasel words. To wit: "Californians for SAFE Food is a broad-based and growing coalition of public health and food safety experts, labor unions, consumers, family farmers and veterinarians who want to keep food choices in California safe, local and affordable. The coalition has already received the endorsement of a number of prominent groups and individuals". Oh? And who says that "SAFE" "wants to keep...food choices safe..."? Given that there's no WP entry for "Californians for SAFE Food", where does the writer get their information about what SAFE and its goals are? And "prominent groups and individuals"? The entry lists such "prominent" groups as the "Kern County Taxpayers Association" (a whopping 739 Google hits), and the so-called "National Animal Interest Alliance", which is actually a front for meat, horse racing and other industries that exploit animals. Nine footnotes in a lengthy WP entry on a current political issue is simply absurd. Someone needs to do their homework and reference this thing properly, and get rid of the weasel words. Bricology ( talk) 20:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I find an issue with the section about giving police powers to the people. The author interprets the law to state the Humane Society can just appoint a limited authority law enforcement officer, but according to the same code quoted Corp. Code 14502(C)(3)(b)the humane society has to request a humane officer be appointed by a judge. Also it should be pointed out that a majority of the Animal Control duties in California are conducted by county or City Animal Control Agencies. These individuals are actual government employees often working in the police or sheriffs department. This Proposition will not change anything about the power of any individual. The corporations code quoted is not changed. The author just chose to display parts of a very long code that make it seem how they wanted. Everyone should be assured the humane society cannot appoint someone to go knock on the doors of these farms to execute a search warrant. Also it may be pointed out that a search warrant has to be signed by a judge. So even if the authors perception of the law was so, it would still have to pas muster with a judge. I am not familiar with editing wiki's so I am just going to post here. Corporations Code 14502(C)(3)(b): The humane society or society for the prevention of cruelty to animals shall recommend any appointee to the judge of the superior court in and for the county or city and county in which the humane society is incorporated... [1] 72.67.154.113 ( talk) 05:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
THanks for your comments on the "poice powers" section. I'll take a closer look at your comments and also the extensive revisions I see that have been made to the section already, and then I'll see if i can come up with some constructive edits later today. Poliwatcher ( talk) 19:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I am a Prop 2 supporter, and I have avoided editing the "arguments of opponents" in the interest of fairness. However, any neutral, third-party who is interested in maintaining the accuracy and objectivity of Wikipedia articles may want to consider something else, in addition to the problems with the "police powers" section. The entire first three sections of "Assertions by opponents" ... "Undermines animal welfare & food safety in California," "Threatens food safety and increases salmonella risk," and "Jeopardizes public health" ... are completely inaccurate. The opponents imply that Prop 2 requires animals to be kept outside of cages or have access to the outdoors. There is no such language in Prop 2. This can be easily confirmed by reading the full text of the initiative ... http://www.yesonprop2.com/files/2007-08-09_07-0041_Initiative.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madaxecho ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC) (oops, sorry I am new to this and don't know how to sign these)
WHO DELETED THE ENTIRETY OF THE SUPPORTERS' ARGUMENTS? I am actually opposed to this measure, but it's ridiculous to vandalize the article in this way. I am undoing those changes. Poliwatcher ( talk) 21:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there is vandalism and dishonesty going on. I have edited the "poll results" section accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.102.9.150 ( talk) 22:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I do appreciate the changing of the section on police powers, but upon further reflection I do not believe it is completely relevant to the wiki. This proposition is not changing the law regarding Humane Societies. Also Humane societies only have powers in counties where they are contracted by the governing agency in the county. So with that said they are sanctioned by both the state and local governments, as well as the court system. Also if you look further into the code regarding the Humane Officers you will find that humane officers are required to undergo the same amount of training as a peace officer. [2] (police, and sheriff [3]). The training is through the POST system, and is the same police academy peace officer have to go through right now to be a sheriff or police officer. If you were to dig a little deeper into the penal code Animal Control Officers (who are employees of a county or city making them government employees)are required to obtain less education to enforce the laws: 830.9. Animal control officers are not peace officers but may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer as specified in Section 836 and the power to serve warrants as specified in Sections 1523 and 1530 during the course and within the scope of their employment, if those officers successfully complete a course in the exercise of those powers pursuant to Section 832. That part of the training course specified in Section 832 pertaining to the carrying and use of firearms shall not be required for any animal control officer whose employing agency prohibits the use of firearms. For the purposes of this section, "firearms" includes capture guns, blowguns, carbon dioxide operated rifles and pistols, air guns, handguns, rifles, and shotguns. [4]
I understand the point that is trying to be made, that the people promoting the law are also the ones enforcing the law. But this is a point that may unduely bias individuals. Police and Sheriffs Deparments often support laws, and when one is considering this law the Humane Society should be considered on the same level as Police and Sheriffs Departments because of how the law places them in the whole scheme of things.
Just fyi I am not with the humane society. So dont think I am trying to promote anything with them. I am just trying to clarify some information to make sure an unbiased article is provided. So please consider what I have said, and if you must keep that section maybe revise it to say varies law enforcement agencies including the humane society can enforce this law.
It just concerns me because the article seems to imply that rogue people will be running around enforcing this law everywhere. This is not the case.
"Normally, investigations surrounding and arrests for alleged violations of criminal statutes are conducted by law enforcement and prosecutorial authorities."
This is from your article, and is one of the statements that concerns me. This is 100% untrue. The District Attorney, Sheriffs Department, and Police Departments avoid these cases. They are often given to the profesionals who are appointed to these duties by law, Animal Control Officers and Humane officers.
Also in reference to your statement about P.C. 599 these individuals still have to prove probable cause to a judge to obtain a search warrant. So they have to do the exact same thing a Sheriffs deputy or Police officer would have to do. The judge then has to use his judgement of the law, and decide wether to sign the warrant or not.
72.67.154.113 ( talk) 02:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised, but then not so surprised, that someone opposed to Prop 2 apparently took it upon themselves to delete the entire section of supporters arguments. Again, I am a Prop 2 supporter, so I will not edit opponents arguments, but I do hope that people will explore the references for themselves, and realize the multiple deceptions in the "assertions by opponents" section. Not only does Prop 2 have no effect whatsoever on the current California laws regarding Humane Officers, it has no effect whatsoever on the ability of farmers to keep animals indoors or in cages, or monitor them for Salmonella, which makes the three sections on Salmonella and bird flu completely irrelevant. Perhaps identifying these statements as "assertions" clears wikipedia of being responsible for these falsehoods, but in that case perhaps a "fact check" section at the end of the article is in order.
Madaxecho (
talk)
04:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so it looks like nobody is interested in fact-checking, so I'll issue this challenge instead, to anyone who is an opponent of Prop 2 and thinks that it decreases food safety:
Please provide references which indicate that "management characteristics" of egg farms which ensure food safety include not allowing hens to fully spread their wings.
Please provide the specific language of Prop 2 which requires that egg-laying hens be kept outside of cages or outdoors ... or otherwise -
a)Please provide references which support the implication that housing egg-laying hens indoors in cages where they are able to fully extend their wings will increase the risk of Salmonella contamination of eggs.
b)Please provide references which support the implication that housing egg-laying hens indoors in cages where they are able to fully extend their wings will increase the risk of them contracting bird flu.
Thanks. Madaxecho ( talk) 21:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Feel free to substitute "stand up, lie down, and/or turn around" for "spread wings" in the references, and please include links for verification. Thanks. Madaxecho ( talk) 22:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I hope that I am doing this right. I just came to this site to get information about Prop. 2, and I also thought that the article sounded biased. In particular, it seems that this sentence or "fact" needs to have some kind of citation or verification: "and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off" REALLY? I have heard people who are against animal cruelty make statements like this before, about chicken debeaking, but I have never seen an actual credible source talking about a chicken's beak being actually "cut off" The only thing I could even find REFERENCE to when I tried to research the subject was the practice of blunting the sharp tip of the beak, which hardly seems comparable to "painfully cutting off the entire beak". I think that sentence or phrase is misleading and should be either cited or removed from the article. I felt so strongly about this I just created a wikipedia account user name so I could add to this discussion. Again, I am deeply sorry if I posted this in the wrong place or did something wrong. It is my first time posting to wikipedia.
Michelsb (
talk)
02:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Good question. Beak trimming, or debeaking, or whatever you want to call it, is done by machine, with variable results. Sometimes the very tip of the beak is cut off, and sometimes quite a large portion is cut off. Have you seen chickens after this process? I have. Many of them are missing a good 2/3 of the top portion of their beak, which can prevent them from eating properly. As for being painful, I suppose that only birds could REALLY answer that question, but consider this. Birds' beaks are like our fingernails. If we cut off the tips of our nails only, it doesn't hurt. But then, they grow back. Chickens are debeaked one time in their lives, which means that the beak must be "trimmed" down to the quick to prevent it from growing back. This is where growing tissue, blood vessels, and yes nerve endings are. Hope this helps. Madaxecho ( talk) 16:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I have also added a link to the wiki article on "debeaking." Thanks again for the question. Madaxecho ( talk) 16:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The article includes a quote from the AVMA within the supporters section, but the AVMA has issued statements OPPOSING Proposition 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.64.249.69 ( talk) 17:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
References
These sections are very very bad for this article. Having long sections on point of view is not how wikipedia works. These sections should be merged into a NPOV section that shows supporters and opponents claims (along with facts) in agacent sentences or paragraphs. The way it stands now is unacceptable. Comments? Fresheneesz ( talk) 19:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
References
I made a NPOV heath and food safey section out of the arguments from both sides. It probably still contains a lot of POV, and I would apprecite any help in consolidating redundant information and making POV comments NPOV. Fresheneesz ( talk) 21:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to have some discussion about the relevance of the bird flu section. The information developed in that section seems to have no direct link to Prop 2 and might in that case constitute Original Research. By having the information in this article it implies that the information has to do with Prop 2, and even if it does, without the proper sourcing it may have to be removed. Comments? Fresheneesz ( talk) 03:48, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Opponents of Prop 2 have incorrectly implied that it forces farmers to keep their birds outdoors, exposing them to migratory birds and hence bird flu. If you look at the language of Proposition 2, there is absolutely no requirement that birds or any other animals must live outdoors. It's that simple. I don't mind at all that you altered my contributions. In fact, I'm glad that someone has actually tried to make this article more objective. Keep up the good work. Madaxecho ( talk) 05:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. I guess the "supporters" argument about bird flu and overcrowding still does apply, so on second thought removing the entire section may not really be necessary. At any rate, I'm tired of being accused of vandalism, and I'm not interested in learning wiki etiquette (no offense) so I'll leave it to you to figure out. Thanks for verifying my comments on the "humane officers" stuff. I appreciate it. Madaxecho ( talk) 05:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason why there's so much mention of things regarding cages vs. no cages? It doesn't seem like that's the question here (the lede implies that this would only require bigger cages). — AySz88 \ ^-^ 02:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
12.2.122.29 severely vandalized this article at 10:44, 5 November 2008. There have been 7 edits since then. Therefore, I will undo the last 8 edits, taking this article back to the last version by Andrew Kelly (06:08, 5 November 2008). My apologies. I will try to recover the good edits that I am undoing. Wideangle ( talk) 18:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I finished performing those undo's, and I restored both of the good edits. Happyinokc was the author of both of those good edits, as well as an undo of a vandalism attack. Wideangle ( talk) 21:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
You deleted out the election results. The initiative was passed yesterday by a wide margin ... woohoo!!! (Since this is the discussion page, I assume that a "woohoo" is acceptable and not vandalism.) And sorry, but I still say that wiki sucks. I will never use it as a reference on any other issue, and I will tell others to do likewise. Madaxecho ( talk) 19:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Madaxecho, I assume that you are talking to me when you say "You deleted out the election results." And I assume, therefore, that you read my section entitled "Severe vandalizing by 12.2.122.29" which explains why I had to perform those undo's. Apparently, you saw the Prop 2 article during the short time between my finishing the undo's and my restoration of the Happyinokc edit that provided the election results. I did restore the election results, and another wikipedian has since updated them. Concerning your displeasure about Wikipedia, I refer interested readers to Criticism of Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is so great, Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is not so great, and Wikipedia:Replies to common objections. Wideangle ( talk) 22:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
"Vote totals" is better than "Results" as the title of the section containing the vote totals. "Results" is too nebulous. The actual results of Proposition 2 will include changes in the ways farm animals are treated, changes in which egg farmers will be successful and which will be unsuccessful, possible prosecutions and convictions, and possible future changes in laws in other states. Therefore, I am changing the title of the section back to "Vote totals". Wideangle ( talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
At 03:23, 6 November 2008, TheBilly added an "articleissues" box at the top of the article with parameters disputed, npov, original research and weasel. I wish to use this section to list the instances of each of these issues that are mentioned in this discussion page. I am not promising to get to work to correct them before this list is completed and agreed upon (or, at least, acquiesced to). Whoever else wants to get to work on them, have at it. Wideangle ( talk) 05:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the top section, there is this sentence: "Article seems highly biased." Wideangle ( talk) 06:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "I understand the point that is trying to be made, that the people promoting the law are also the ones enforcing the law. But this is a point that may unduely bias individuals." Wideangle ( talk) 06:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "... the article sounded biased. In particular, it seems that this sentence ... needs to have some kind of citation or verification: 'and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off ' ". Wideangle ( talk) 06:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "... it seems that this sentence ... needs to have some kind of citation or verification: 'and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off' ". Wideangle ( talk) 06:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "relevance of the bird flu section", there is the following statement: "The information developed in [the bird flu] section seems to have no direct link to Prop 2 and might in that case constitute Original Research. By having the information in this article it implies that the information has to do with Prop 2, and even if it does, without the proper sourcing it may have to be removed. Wideangle ( talk) 06:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "Not only does Prop 2 have no effect whatsoever on the current California laws regarding Humane Officers, it has no effect whatsoever on the ability of farmers to keep animals indoors or in cages, or monitor them for Salmonella, which makes the three sections on Salmonella and bird flu completely irrelevant. Perhaps identifying these statements as 'assertions' clears wikipedia of being responsible for these falsehoods". Wideangle ( talk) 07:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "... it seems that this sentence or 'fact' needs to have some kind of citation or verification: 'and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off ' ". Wideangle ( talk) 07:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Clarification of "debeaking". This is a practice of cutting the tips of the beak off before they are transported to a cage. It usually happens when the chickens are around two months old. It is done to protect the birds from each other. Chickens, like many birds like the taste of blood and will peck each other and even dead chickens. About 10 years ago, when debeaking was done manually, a beak would be cut to far up and cause the beak to bleed. The current practice uses a guide and quick iron to cut without hitting blood vessels or nerves. 69.45.184.139 ( talk) 08:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Camboia
And here are some more assertions from the article whose factual accuracy is disputed in this Talk page:
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following quotation from the article that is alleged to contain weasel words: "Californians for SAFE Food is a broad-based and growing coalition of public health and food safety experts, labor unions, consumers, family farmers and veterinarians who want to keep food choices in California safe, local and affordable. The coalition has already received the endorsement of a number of prominent groups and individuals". Wideangle ( talk) 07:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
There should be a section discussing the actual results of the proposals passing (to go along with the already present prediction of effects). Have any egg producers announced they are moving out of state? Any lawsuits filed against it? Any producers announce that they are staying and converting their processes? Rmhermen ( talk) 19:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
No one outside California knows or cares about this "proposition 2." The 2008 Massachusetts proposition 2 has had nationwide repercussions. 24.91.229.193 ( talk) 22:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
In the "Supporters of Prop 2" section, under "Key endorsements as of October 27, 2008", somebody recently added PETA ( People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals). However, PETA did not endorse Prop 2 until October 31, 2008 ( http://blog.peta.org/archives/2008/10/terminate_cruel.php) -- just four days before the election. I have therefore deleted that reference to PETA. Wideangle ( talk) 00:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
There are four tags at the top of the article that were placed there in November 2008: neutrality, original research, factual accuracy, and weasel words. Many changes have been made to the article since November 2008 (including many made by me). I propose to now remove the four tags. Wideangle ( talk) 01:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
The first reference in this entry, to the text of the proposition itself, is broken. I cannot find another source for it, and would appreciate assistance. Ethan1701 ( talk) 12:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
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I changed the findings of the UC Davis AIC study. If you read the study (or even just the executive summary) it clearly says that there will likely be no additional costs to consumers from the initiative. I also clarified that the study is only an economic analysis of the initiative and has absolutely no recommendations regarding the welfare impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wps4738 ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Article seems highly biased. I'm not familiar enough with the issue to edit it myself but should changes be considered?
I think it's becoming less biased and progressing fairly well. It does need some finesse and layout edits though ( Marcino ( talk) 18:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC))
There were a few sentences that were definitely biased so I took them out. Alice1869 ( talk) 00:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)Alice1869
I don't understand why the sentence about HSUS freely admitting that the Prop is almost entirely focused on battery cages is biased. They themselves have said that veal is not an issue, and gestation crates are minimal. I am re-inserting the sentence. Poliwatcher ( talk) 16:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I re-inserted the sentence, but am open to debate that perhaps it should go in a diff part of article. I just think that since the opening paragraph explicitly states that the prop deals w/ gestation/veal crates and battery cages (which is true, the actual language does), this does not accurately reflect the reality in CA even by HSUS' own admission.
I also suggest that we be at least a little more specific when we mention which sentences we delete/insert. Poliwatcher ( talk) 16:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi Madaxecho, I changed your edit stating that the Inititiative is known as "The Prevention to Farm Animal Cruelty Act" because it was amended by Sec of State on July 03, 2008 to "Standards for Confining Farm Animals". I sourced both so that there would be no confusion. Poliwatcher ( talk) 17:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I've seldom seen a WP entry with so many weasel words. To wit: "Californians for SAFE Food is a broad-based and growing coalition of public health and food safety experts, labor unions, consumers, family farmers and veterinarians who want to keep food choices in California safe, local and affordable. The coalition has already received the endorsement of a number of prominent groups and individuals". Oh? And who says that "SAFE" "wants to keep...food choices safe..."? Given that there's no WP entry for "Californians for SAFE Food", where does the writer get their information about what SAFE and its goals are? And "prominent groups and individuals"? The entry lists such "prominent" groups as the "Kern County Taxpayers Association" (a whopping 739 Google hits), and the so-called "National Animal Interest Alliance", which is actually a front for meat, horse racing and other industries that exploit animals. Nine footnotes in a lengthy WP entry on a current political issue is simply absurd. Someone needs to do their homework and reference this thing properly, and get rid of the weasel words. Bricology ( talk) 20:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I find an issue with the section about giving police powers to the people. The author interprets the law to state the Humane Society can just appoint a limited authority law enforcement officer, but according to the same code quoted Corp. Code 14502(C)(3)(b)the humane society has to request a humane officer be appointed by a judge. Also it should be pointed out that a majority of the Animal Control duties in California are conducted by county or City Animal Control Agencies. These individuals are actual government employees often working in the police or sheriffs department. This Proposition will not change anything about the power of any individual. The corporations code quoted is not changed. The author just chose to display parts of a very long code that make it seem how they wanted. Everyone should be assured the humane society cannot appoint someone to go knock on the doors of these farms to execute a search warrant. Also it may be pointed out that a search warrant has to be signed by a judge. So even if the authors perception of the law was so, it would still have to pas muster with a judge. I am not familiar with editing wiki's so I am just going to post here. Corporations Code 14502(C)(3)(b): The humane society or society for the prevention of cruelty to animals shall recommend any appointee to the judge of the superior court in and for the county or city and county in which the humane society is incorporated... [1] 72.67.154.113 ( talk) 05:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
THanks for your comments on the "poice powers" section. I'll take a closer look at your comments and also the extensive revisions I see that have been made to the section already, and then I'll see if i can come up with some constructive edits later today. Poliwatcher ( talk) 19:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I am a Prop 2 supporter, and I have avoided editing the "arguments of opponents" in the interest of fairness. However, any neutral, third-party who is interested in maintaining the accuracy and objectivity of Wikipedia articles may want to consider something else, in addition to the problems with the "police powers" section. The entire first three sections of "Assertions by opponents" ... "Undermines animal welfare & food safety in California," "Threatens food safety and increases salmonella risk," and "Jeopardizes public health" ... are completely inaccurate. The opponents imply that Prop 2 requires animals to be kept outside of cages or have access to the outdoors. There is no such language in Prop 2. This can be easily confirmed by reading the full text of the initiative ... http://www.yesonprop2.com/files/2007-08-09_07-0041_Initiative.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madaxecho ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC) (oops, sorry I am new to this and don't know how to sign these)
WHO DELETED THE ENTIRETY OF THE SUPPORTERS' ARGUMENTS? I am actually opposed to this measure, but it's ridiculous to vandalize the article in this way. I am undoing those changes. Poliwatcher ( talk) 21:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there is vandalism and dishonesty going on. I have edited the "poll results" section accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.102.9.150 ( talk) 22:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I do appreciate the changing of the section on police powers, but upon further reflection I do not believe it is completely relevant to the wiki. This proposition is not changing the law regarding Humane Societies. Also Humane societies only have powers in counties where they are contracted by the governing agency in the county. So with that said they are sanctioned by both the state and local governments, as well as the court system. Also if you look further into the code regarding the Humane Officers you will find that humane officers are required to undergo the same amount of training as a peace officer. [2] (police, and sheriff [3]). The training is through the POST system, and is the same police academy peace officer have to go through right now to be a sheriff or police officer. If you were to dig a little deeper into the penal code Animal Control Officers (who are employees of a county or city making them government employees)are required to obtain less education to enforce the laws: 830.9. Animal control officers are not peace officers but may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer as specified in Section 836 and the power to serve warrants as specified in Sections 1523 and 1530 during the course and within the scope of their employment, if those officers successfully complete a course in the exercise of those powers pursuant to Section 832. That part of the training course specified in Section 832 pertaining to the carrying and use of firearms shall not be required for any animal control officer whose employing agency prohibits the use of firearms. For the purposes of this section, "firearms" includes capture guns, blowguns, carbon dioxide operated rifles and pistols, air guns, handguns, rifles, and shotguns. [4]
I understand the point that is trying to be made, that the people promoting the law are also the ones enforcing the law. But this is a point that may unduely bias individuals. Police and Sheriffs Deparments often support laws, and when one is considering this law the Humane Society should be considered on the same level as Police and Sheriffs Departments because of how the law places them in the whole scheme of things.
Just fyi I am not with the humane society. So dont think I am trying to promote anything with them. I am just trying to clarify some information to make sure an unbiased article is provided. So please consider what I have said, and if you must keep that section maybe revise it to say varies law enforcement agencies including the humane society can enforce this law.
It just concerns me because the article seems to imply that rogue people will be running around enforcing this law everywhere. This is not the case.
"Normally, investigations surrounding and arrests for alleged violations of criminal statutes are conducted by law enforcement and prosecutorial authorities."
This is from your article, and is one of the statements that concerns me. This is 100% untrue. The District Attorney, Sheriffs Department, and Police Departments avoid these cases. They are often given to the profesionals who are appointed to these duties by law, Animal Control Officers and Humane officers.
Also in reference to your statement about P.C. 599 these individuals still have to prove probable cause to a judge to obtain a search warrant. So they have to do the exact same thing a Sheriffs deputy or Police officer would have to do. The judge then has to use his judgement of the law, and decide wether to sign the warrant or not.
72.67.154.113 ( talk) 02:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised, but then not so surprised, that someone opposed to Prop 2 apparently took it upon themselves to delete the entire section of supporters arguments. Again, I am a Prop 2 supporter, so I will not edit opponents arguments, but I do hope that people will explore the references for themselves, and realize the multiple deceptions in the "assertions by opponents" section. Not only does Prop 2 have no effect whatsoever on the current California laws regarding Humane Officers, it has no effect whatsoever on the ability of farmers to keep animals indoors or in cages, or monitor them for Salmonella, which makes the three sections on Salmonella and bird flu completely irrelevant. Perhaps identifying these statements as "assertions" clears wikipedia of being responsible for these falsehoods, but in that case perhaps a "fact check" section at the end of the article is in order.
Madaxecho (
talk)
04:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so it looks like nobody is interested in fact-checking, so I'll issue this challenge instead, to anyone who is an opponent of Prop 2 and thinks that it decreases food safety:
Please provide references which indicate that "management characteristics" of egg farms which ensure food safety include not allowing hens to fully spread their wings.
Please provide the specific language of Prop 2 which requires that egg-laying hens be kept outside of cages or outdoors ... or otherwise -
a)Please provide references which support the implication that housing egg-laying hens indoors in cages where they are able to fully extend their wings will increase the risk of Salmonella contamination of eggs.
b)Please provide references which support the implication that housing egg-laying hens indoors in cages where they are able to fully extend their wings will increase the risk of them contracting bird flu.
Thanks. Madaxecho ( talk) 21:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Feel free to substitute "stand up, lie down, and/or turn around" for "spread wings" in the references, and please include links for verification. Thanks. Madaxecho ( talk) 22:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I hope that I am doing this right. I just came to this site to get information about Prop. 2, and I also thought that the article sounded biased. In particular, it seems that this sentence or "fact" needs to have some kind of citation or verification: "and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off" REALLY? I have heard people who are against animal cruelty make statements like this before, about chicken debeaking, but I have never seen an actual credible source talking about a chicken's beak being actually "cut off" The only thing I could even find REFERENCE to when I tried to research the subject was the practice of blunting the sharp tip of the beak, which hardly seems comparable to "painfully cutting off the entire beak". I think that sentence or phrase is misleading and should be either cited or removed from the article. I felt so strongly about this I just created a wikipedia account user name so I could add to this discussion. Again, I am deeply sorry if I posted this in the wrong place or did something wrong. It is my first time posting to wikipedia.
Michelsb (
talk)
02:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Good question. Beak trimming, or debeaking, or whatever you want to call it, is done by machine, with variable results. Sometimes the very tip of the beak is cut off, and sometimes quite a large portion is cut off. Have you seen chickens after this process? I have. Many of them are missing a good 2/3 of the top portion of their beak, which can prevent them from eating properly. As for being painful, I suppose that only birds could REALLY answer that question, but consider this. Birds' beaks are like our fingernails. If we cut off the tips of our nails only, it doesn't hurt. But then, they grow back. Chickens are debeaked one time in their lives, which means that the beak must be "trimmed" down to the quick to prevent it from growing back. This is where growing tissue, blood vessels, and yes nerve endings are. Hope this helps. Madaxecho ( talk) 16:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I have also added a link to the wiki article on "debeaking." Thanks again for the question. Madaxecho ( talk) 16:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
The article includes a quote from the AVMA within the supporters section, but the AVMA has issued statements OPPOSING Proposition 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.64.249.69 ( talk) 17:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
References
These sections are very very bad for this article. Having long sections on point of view is not how wikipedia works. These sections should be merged into a NPOV section that shows supporters and opponents claims (along with facts) in agacent sentences or paragraphs. The way it stands now is unacceptable. Comments? Fresheneesz ( talk) 19:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
References
I made a NPOV heath and food safey section out of the arguments from both sides. It probably still contains a lot of POV, and I would apprecite any help in consolidating redundant information and making POV comments NPOV. Fresheneesz ( talk) 21:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to have some discussion about the relevance of the bird flu section. The information developed in that section seems to have no direct link to Prop 2 and might in that case constitute Original Research. By having the information in this article it implies that the information has to do with Prop 2, and even if it does, without the proper sourcing it may have to be removed. Comments? Fresheneesz ( talk) 03:48, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Opponents of Prop 2 have incorrectly implied that it forces farmers to keep their birds outdoors, exposing them to migratory birds and hence bird flu. If you look at the language of Proposition 2, there is absolutely no requirement that birds or any other animals must live outdoors. It's that simple. I don't mind at all that you altered my contributions. In fact, I'm glad that someone has actually tried to make this article more objective. Keep up the good work. Madaxecho ( talk) 05:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. I guess the "supporters" argument about bird flu and overcrowding still does apply, so on second thought removing the entire section may not really be necessary. At any rate, I'm tired of being accused of vandalism, and I'm not interested in learning wiki etiquette (no offense) so I'll leave it to you to figure out. Thanks for verifying my comments on the "humane officers" stuff. I appreciate it. Madaxecho ( talk) 05:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason why there's so much mention of things regarding cages vs. no cages? It doesn't seem like that's the question here (the lede implies that this would only require bigger cages). — AySz88 \ ^-^ 02:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
12.2.122.29 severely vandalized this article at 10:44, 5 November 2008. There have been 7 edits since then. Therefore, I will undo the last 8 edits, taking this article back to the last version by Andrew Kelly (06:08, 5 November 2008). My apologies. I will try to recover the good edits that I am undoing. Wideangle ( talk) 18:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I finished performing those undo's, and I restored both of the good edits. Happyinokc was the author of both of those good edits, as well as an undo of a vandalism attack. Wideangle ( talk) 21:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
You deleted out the election results. The initiative was passed yesterday by a wide margin ... woohoo!!! (Since this is the discussion page, I assume that a "woohoo" is acceptable and not vandalism.) And sorry, but I still say that wiki sucks. I will never use it as a reference on any other issue, and I will tell others to do likewise. Madaxecho ( talk) 19:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Madaxecho, I assume that you are talking to me when you say "You deleted out the election results." And I assume, therefore, that you read my section entitled "Severe vandalizing by 12.2.122.29" which explains why I had to perform those undo's. Apparently, you saw the Prop 2 article during the short time between my finishing the undo's and my restoration of the Happyinokc edit that provided the election results. I did restore the election results, and another wikipedian has since updated them. Concerning your displeasure about Wikipedia, I refer interested readers to Criticism of Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is so great, Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is not so great, and Wikipedia:Replies to common objections. Wideangle ( talk) 22:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
"Vote totals" is better than "Results" as the title of the section containing the vote totals. "Results" is too nebulous. The actual results of Proposition 2 will include changes in the ways farm animals are treated, changes in which egg farmers will be successful and which will be unsuccessful, possible prosecutions and convictions, and possible future changes in laws in other states. Therefore, I am changing the title of the section back to "Vote totals". Wideangle ( talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
At 03:23, 6 November 2008, TheBilly added an "articleissues" box at the top of the article with parameters disputed, npov, original research and weasel. I wish to use this section to list the instances of each of these issues that are mentioned in this discussion page. I am not promising to get to work to correct them before this list is completed and agreed upon (or, at least, acquiesced to). Whoever else wants to get to work on them, have at it. Wideangle ( talk) 05:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the top section, there is this sentence: "Article seems highly biased." Wideangle ( talk) 06:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "I understand the point that is trying to be made, that the people promoting the law are also the ones enforcing the law. But this is a point that may unduely bias individuals." Wideangle ( talk) 06:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "... the article sounded biased. In particular, it seems that this sentence ... needs to have some kind of citation or verification: 'and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off ' ". Wideangle ( talk) 06:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "... it seems that this sentence ... needs to have some kind of citation or verification: 'and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off' ". Wideangle ( talk) 06:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "relevance of the bird flu section", there is the following statement: "The information developed in [the bird flu] section seems to have no direct link to Prop 2 and might in that case constitute Original Research. By having the information in this article it implies that the information has to do with Prop 2, and even if it does, without the proper sourcing it may have to be removed. Wideangle ( talk) 06:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "Not only does Prop 2 have no effect whatsoever on the current California laws regarding Humane Officers, it has no effect whatsoever on the ability of farmers to keep animals indoors or in cages, or monitor them for Salmonella, which makes the three sections on Salmonella and bird flu completely irrelevant. Perhaps identifying these statements as 'assertions' clears wikipedia of being responsible for these falsehoods". Wideangle ( talk) 07:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following statement: "... it seems that this sentence or 'fact' needs to have some kind of citation or verification: 'and the animals must have their beaks painfully cut off ' ". Wideangle ( talk) 07:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Clarification of "debeaking". This is a practice of cutting the tips of the beak off before they are transported to a cage. It usually happens when the chickens are around two months old. It is done to protect the birds from each other. Chickens, like many birds like the taste of blood and will peck each other and even dead chickens. About 10 years ago, when debeaking was done manually, a beak would be cut to far up and cause the beak to bleed. The current practice uses a guide and quick iron to cut without hitting blood vessels or nerves. 69.45.184.139 ( talk) 08:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Camboia
And here are some more assertions from the article whose factual accuracy is disputed in this Talk page:
In the section entitled "This thing needs to be WIKIFIED", there is the following quotation from the article that is alleged to contain weasel words: "Californians for SAFE Food is a broad-based and growing coalition of public health and food safety experts, labor unions, consumers, family farmers and veterinarians who want to keep food choices in California safe, local and affordable. The coalition has already received the endorsement of a number of prominent groups and individuals". Wideangle ( talk) 07:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
There should be a section discussing the actual results of the proposals passing (to go along with the already present prediction of effects). Have any egg producers announced they are moving out of state? Any lawsuits filed against it? Any producers announce that they are staying and converting their processes? Rmhermen ( talk) 19:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
No one outside California knows or cares about this "proposition 2." The 2008 Massachusetts proposition 2 has had nationwide repercussions. 24.91.229.193 ( talk) 22:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
In the "Supporters of Prop 2" section, under "Key endorsements as of October 27, 2008", somebody recently added PETA ( People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals). However, PETA did not endorse Prop 2 until October 31, 2008 ( http://blog.peta.org/archives/2008/10/terminate_cruel.php) -- just four days before the election. I have therefore deleted that reference to PETA. Wideangle ( talk) 00:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
There are four tags at the top of the article that were placed there in November 2008: neutrality, original research, factual accuracy, and weasel words. Many changes have been made to the article since November 2008 (including many made by me). I propose to now remove the four tags. Wideangle ( talk) 01:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
The first reference in this entry, to the text of the proposition itself, is broken. I cannot find another source for it, and would appreciate assistance. Ethan1701 ( talk) 12:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
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