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The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 23:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict → Israel-Lebanon conflict (2006) – Conform to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history#Naming_conventions and does not begin with a number … Please share your opinion at Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Avi 22:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "# Support", "# Oppose", or "# Neutral" in the proper section followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
I think it should be Israel-Hezbollah War (2006) or Israel-Lebanon War (2006) -- Doom777 15:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Should this be renamed to Israel+Lebanon-Hezbollah conflict? This isn't a conflict with the Lebanese Government. It is with Hezbollah and both the Lebanese Government and the Israeli Government are teamed up on this one. 203.158.32.23 14:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Israel is not teaming up with the lebanese government. That's BS. Article name is good as it is. -- Zonerocks 16:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
They have!!! Israel even took in some refugees for them. 203.217.83.31 15:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The survey above is getting tricky because there are so many different choices, it's not clear what anyone is voting for. I propose the following survey.
Note that per WP:STRAW, we need to agree on the survey before we vote, so this survey proposal is for discussion purposes only and not for voting. Once we have consensus on a survey form, I'll post it and we can vote.
Survey proposal:
This survey is to assess community opinion about possible renames of this article. There are three separate issues about which to vote.
I know it's complex. Alternately, we could try running each one of those straw polls separately, one per week. Thoughts? TheronJ 18:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
(This section appears to have been deleted by accident [1] - I have added it back in. TheronJ 15:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC))
Name it Most talked about war of 2006 ;) 203.217.83.31 15:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I see now that the Hebrew Wikipedia has renamed their article (belatedly, I think) to "the Second Lebanon War" and now with this as an encyclopedic (as opposed to journalistic, of which there are plenty) reference, I'm inclined to rename the article to 2006 Israel-Lebanon war (i.e. beyond a conflict). So unless there are objections, I'll be implementing the move in the near future. Thanks. El_C 08:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro currently says "Israel held the Lebanese government responsible for the attack..." which would suggest Israel went after Lebanon and not Hizballah. I think this is incorrect, and that the distinction is important. Are there any references to support that?
And perhaps the next paragraph should be phrased differently -- the attacks weren't arbitrarily on Lebanon but were aiming to achieve some goals. E.g., sea blockade to prevent Hizballah rearmament and transportation of the abducted soldiers, etc. ehudshapira 05:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I have updated the casus belli to include the Lebanese version with appropriate citation to counteract the POV being expresed by those who are pro-Israel that Hezbollah started the conflict by crossing into Israel, kiling 8 soldiers and kidnapping two. Here is my addition: "Lebanon: IDF soldiers crossed into Lebanon and were captured by local Lebanese police, subsequently resulting in Israel attacking Lebanon." My current reference is a Forbes article by Joseph Panossian since one editor decided that a Bahrain news source isn't reliable enough and decided to revert my edit. I trust that anything other than an American or Israeli news source would not be considered reliable so I have chosen to go with the reliable because not once has this edit been changed without discussing it with me but several times. It's clear what the person's POV is and that they do not want anything posted that contradicts that view but it's important that Wikipedia does not reflect the narrow POV of a few editors. There is a world that is larger than the United States and while many editors may be Americans it is important to keep in mind that Wikipedia is not the place to promote our POV. [3] Edward Lalone 21:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm very concerned that this article is not following the NPOV policy of Wikipedia.
The facts as to the cause of the conflict are in dispute and I believe that the standard that applies here is Information Suppression, which states "In Wikipedia, one of the most common forms of violating the NPOV policy is to selectively cite some information that supports one view whilst deleting or trivializing other information that opposes it. In this manner, one can completely misrepresent or conceal the full range of views on a subject whilst still complying with Wikipedia:Verifiability." I believe that this is taking place in this article specifically in respect to the cause of the conflict. If a reliable source disputes these reports and has provided evidence that refutes the claim it should be linked to but we should assume that the claim is based on factual evidence until it has been demonstrated to be false. I've decided to focus on this issue as a part of the Neutrality Project because I feel it is important enough to warrant attention. Edward Lalone 01:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
First, on July 12 Michael Hirsch writing for MSNBC wrote "After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah in Lebanon on Wednesday, which the hard-line group linked to a similar kidnapping by Hamas the week before, the Mideast seemed to be closer to all-out war." [4] Joseph Pannossian writing for AP states "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon..." [5]. Both of these articles were written on July 12th. Both would later change their reports.
Second, according to Reuters the Israeli army "confirmed that two Israeli soldiers had been captured on the Lebanese frontier" [6]. This reinforces the previous two reports and adds an additional issue that should be discussed. If the Israeli army did in fact confirm the report that the capture of the soldiers took place inside of Lebanon than the report by AP, and the other wire services which I will mention below is reinforced. Reuters actually reports that the Israeli's confirmed the report that the capture took place inside of Lebanon and not in Israel. In addition to AP and Reuters the Agence France Presse and the Deutsche Presse Agentur wire services confirm in their reports that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon. That these wire services would have compiled their reports independent of each other re-inforces the validity of all four reports. That Reuters sought comment from and received confirmation of their story from the Israeli army does much to validate the original reports.
Tewfik has written "This is the original AP report to which we devoted so much discussion many weeks ago, and there is no reason to do it again." So if you do not wish to discuss the AP report we can discuss the Reuters, Agence France Presse or the Deutsche Presse Agentur reports. Yet my objection remains that this information is being suppressed in violation of the NPOV policy by "selectively citing some information that supports one view whilst deleting or trivializing other information that opposes it." He also attempts to make the point out that a consensus has been reached and has even suggested that we "should make a list at the top of the Talk page listing the basic points that the consensus holds here." It is not a consensus that we are attempting to reach as to fact. We are not discussing opinion or the point of views but actual important information that would help people understand this conflict and how those here with a POV (regardless if they make up a consensus) are suppressing that information so as to advance their POV. We all have point of views and therefore it is even more important that information that deals with something as important as the cause of the conflict is not suppressed. Edward Lalone 01:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Edward Lalone, you are welcome to add the position that the raid took place in Lebanon just as soon as you can source it. As of now, there is not a single reliable source that makes this claim, nor do any of the parties involved make this claim. No one (except for on this Talk) makes this claim. Mistakes are always made in reporting news, especially in initial reports that lack clarity. The position that the initial reports from this conflict should be presented as an alternative claim as to what happened is original research, since again, no one claims that these sources were subsequently covered up or any such idea. Again, if an RS actually put forward this argument, then we might include it with the proper weight, but no one does so. I hope I was able to clarify this for you. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that there have been no peace between Israel and Lebanon so there has been a low intensity warfare going on for may years. // Liftarn
Is the logic that Hisbollah started it because they "hit back first"? Does wikipedia have some sort of goodlike ability to see that there were absolutely no other preseding event?
Why is kidnapping of the two Palestininans been disqualified as a starting event? Or any other atrocity that has been committed since 5 decades back?
Maby you can use your "special powers" to finally answer the question, which was first the hen or the egg. I will look forward to the results. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.250.213.2 ( talk • contribs).
Because we aren't discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict, but rather a specific event, which was immediately prompted by Hezbollah's raid. Others can feel free to expand if it becomes necessary... (my mouth is dry). Tewfik Talk 02:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not written in a NPOV way. It should be rewritten. Thank you. 203.217.83.31 09:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes Iorek85, the article looks fine to me. I might suggest, however, that the tile is pro-Israel. I cite the recent title change to "Post-ceasefire conflict." This title implies that there was a conflict, (of an undefined nature), following the cease-fire. It fails to imform that the primary conflict was caused by Israel breaching the cease-fire. Again, my complaint refers to the title, not the article. Bridarshy 07:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Tewfik, you are right, you were not misunderstood. I am wrong for using the word "precede". I should have said "folllowing". (I have edited my old entry.) Precede, of course, has the opposite meaning of following. I apologize for the confusion. Bridarshy 00:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
. In any event, there were actions on both sides, and at least the US's stated intention in the resolution's drafting wouldn't support the contention that the Israeli action was a violation, hence the neutral heading. Cheers,
Tewfik
Talk
07:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Israel biasness. Problems:
The real criteria for military victory: 1. "Possession" of the field of battle 2. casualties as a percentage of troops of each army. 3. Damage to military and economic assets as a percentage of total assets. In these 3 areas, Israel was clearly more successful. User: Jaywhite 06 Sept 3,2006
Please feel free to add some more points. Thank you. 203.217.83.31 15:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Pro-Israel biasness. Problems:
Please feel free to add some more points. Thank you. (But seriously, there are no major issues with this article as far as I can tell.) // Liftarn 17:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
--- I just added a sentence in the "initial reviews" section pointing out that israel did not accomplish the goals stated by Olmert at the beginning of the conflict. I hope this is not seen as POV... it has been widely acknowledged in both the international and israeli press, and I think it may be more reasonable to assess "who lost" rather than "who won" in this conflict.
Please try to note that an article can have statements in it that show bias towards either side. One section may state as face items contradicted in another section for instance. Having it 50% statements biased to Isreal, and 50% of statements biased against, does not make a 'Balanced and Neutral Article'. Each item that may be biased should be adressed on a unique basis, ignorant of any 'balencing' bias also in the article.
There may be confusion that giving 'equal time' to the different points of view is the same as presenting a ballenced view. This is not correct, and we should report POV with due weight, not represent POV. -- Barberio 18:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a real problem, but some editors remove every edit that tries to fix this. If you don't agree with me, try fixing the problems you've mentioned. Good luck. :-) -- Hossein.ir 12:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The article lacks some events which were all over the news media, events which surely stay in history as part of this war - for instance the Qana bombing and the bombing of 4 UN observers. NPOV does not mean everyone has to like the article. The article should cover all events as they were, and do so in a neutral language. That gives rise to true NPOV. Then, if someone has a problem with the article, it is because of the article violating their own bias or expectations of (non-objective) truth. --Anonymous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.233.195.92 ( talk • contribs).
I found the Hebrew name of "Operation Just Reward" in Archive 1: - שכר הולם. Is there a name in Arabic for the Hezbollah operation, "Operation Truthful Promise"? Vints 15:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that in order to keep this article neutral it is necessary to remove the opinions of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch which are clearly anti-Israel organizations - Check out their wikipedia articles. It is fine to keep their statements but to change them as statements that were made by Hizballah speakers-They made very close statements.
10:13, 28 August 2006 (CET)
Are there any honest brokers out there anymore? You have to admit that democratic governmeents are being held to a higher standard than non-democratic instituations by these so-called non-political organizations? This, by itself, is unfair and shows the bias One example is the way AI and HRW treats executions. An execution in the US is protested regularly and loudly as a vile abuse of human rights while an execution committed on the streets of Gaza bearly gets a complaint. Is a life in the US worth more than a life in the Gaza Strip? In the US, executions only take place after years or appeals while an execution in other parts of the world are done without even a trial. The same thing is true of the way AI and HRW treats prisons and prisioners in the US and Israel compared to the numerous prision camps in the rest of the world. I really wish AI and HRW were non-political so we could take their reports and comments as facts, but whatever is said by these organizations should be taken as opinions, no more or no less of value than an opposing opinion. (P.S. Remember the reports of the humane treatment of prisioners reported by the Red Cross during World War II?) user:mnw2000 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I refer to the archived United Nations forces, Indonesia, Malaysia and Israel, sources are AP at Yahoo!, Malaysian national news agency, AP at MSNBC and WaPo. We definitely should include the planned UN forces here which would include the French sending only 200 troops and Israeli objection to initial composition of the forces. __earth ( Talk) 03:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
How can Israel work with troops from a country that it does not have relations with? The resolution requires the forces to coordinate with Lebanon and Isreal. Maybe the countries that want to be part of the peacekeeping force should be required to recognized Israel (short of full diplomatic recognition). After all, if these countries don't even recognize Israel's right to exist, how can they be expected to protect a country (and its people) that they don't even recognize exist? user:mnw2000 20:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is Lebanon now in the same category of combatants as Hizbollah? Nwe 16:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I go away on holiday for a few days and find that this item, much discussed on the talk page, has been removed by - surprise-surprise - Tewfik. Tewfik suggested it should go in a sub-article, I asked him where he thought would be a good place and at that point he bailed out of the debate. 2 days later, after no substantiated objections (except some offensive ranting from a poster called aleverde), I put in 2 lines in the "Historical background" section. This has been deleted for apparently overburdening an "overcrowded" article. This is a joke of a reason. Tewfik, come up with something better or I will edit it back in, because it is clearly a relevent piece of information. Fig 17:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
). Just to reiterate, I think there may be a place for a few short lines, though I'm not sure that a claim with the issues listed above should really even be afforded that much, despite its author's notability.
Tewfik
Talk
01:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you think I'm 'wriggling,' as I'm trying to be as clear as possible. I don't think it should go in the main article due to the issues discussed above. If you think it should go into the Timeline or some other subarticle I would be willing to discuss that, but I don't think it would deserve very much space even there. Tewfik Talk 16:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The Parry source does not engage in this debate, but merely puts kidnaping in quotation marks once. The Chomsky source does discuss this point, but that is hardly evidence of a widespread debate, which is what the section you keep adding claims exists. While I appreciate that you provided sources, the passage is still unsourced OR that reads more like a summary of the Talk on this page than any external debate (which was noted by Rangeley), and this single source is no reason to keep it. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 20:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
How on earth was the U.N a combatant? Should was add the nationalities of all the international people killed as combatants, too? If you didn't fight back, you aren't a combatant. The current box makes it look like the U.N was involved in the fighting, which it plainly wasn't. Iorek85 23:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It's been a week, now. At what point do we stop using these varying "estimates" from the tourism minister, etc., and start using Israel's confirmed Hezbollah headcount? At what point should these "estimates" be disregarded for statistical purposes, given the IDF is also releasing confirmed kill counts? Thanks, Italiavivi 22:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
They are getting way too long. I think that post conflict, the news links are no longer needed unless they give a special insight to the conflict - before, they were good as they allowed quick access to updated news, but that's irrelevent now. Maybe even the blogs, since the conflict is over. Iorek85 00:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Image:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict titlepic.png What do you think, I think it would be proper to show the several aspects of the war.-- TheFEARgod 12:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I like it! Nice work. Iorek85 12:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a remark that the INFO box on the lebanees map depicting Israely bombings ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Locations_bombed_Aug13.jpg) is rather biased against Israel. The remark that "Factories,warehouse..... CHURCHES AND MOSQUES ... were bombed" is false. The remark that "Reported Israel use of internationaly banned bombs" is False.
The image is not in the public domain and can not be used in an altered condition without obtaining permission. Regardless of any factual errors in the sidebar, the main focus of the image is to show the distribution of attacks on Lebanon by Israel and it seems to do that accurately. If you want to modify the image and post a new one, you must obtain permission. I nominated the altered image for deletion and it seems to have already happened. Carbonate 04:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
* to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work * to make derivative works * to make commercial use of the work
Under the following conditions: by Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor. sa Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to this one. I have created a derivative work, which is allowed, since I have properly attributed the work and disributed it under an identical license. I can't find your nomination for deletion - could you pint me to it? Isarig 18:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This term is used incorrectly throughout the article and extremely skews the degree of damage to civilian infrastructure.
1,000,000 is the widely cited number of Lebanese civilians that were fleeing their homes for the time of the Israeli attacks. Der Spiegel writes about Uno estimating that 200,000 Lebanese were not able to return to their homes. 130,000 homes are said to be damaged or destroyed (50,000 of which in southern Beirut suburbs). The GOL Higher Relief Council (HRC) reports that nearly 975,000 Lebanese fled their homes at the height of emergency. It estimates that 718,000 displaced persons have returned to their home areas since August 14, leaving 257,000 internally displaced persons (I guess the rounding is safe).
However, I don't see the number of 500,000 Israeli civilians anywhere. NYT speaks of 300,000, and I don't know where they got their numbers from. People that stayed temporarily at friends' or relatives' homes to avoid getting hurt by rockets are hardly displaced. In any case, I guess the number of Israeli civilians that are not back in their homes by now is more like...uhm...10. I am waiting for someone to source reliable numbers.
I am going to edit the article according to these data points and will remove the action item from the top of this page. Kosmopolis 00:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time to research now, but do you actually dispute the NYT claim? What is gained by erasing reference to the other sides' displaced? And who said that displaced is limited to "home is gone"? Tewfik Talk 23:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
How can you know who "will never have" a home? Displaced doesn't mean that one's home has been destroyed - I don't think anyone is arguing that the homes of 1,000,000 Lebanese were destroyed. I'm sure that you're only acting out of the best intention, but totally removing reference to one side's displaced doesn't serve to increase neutrality in this article, so I'm restoring the passage. We must recognise that suffering can be experienced by both sides in a conflict like this. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 03:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you are currently trying to redefine what displaced means. We are not talking about displaced at 18:30, 1 August 2024 UTC [ refresh, but rather the total displaced throughout the entire conflict. The USAID report that you are citing says:
There are lots of possible reasons for why people haven't returned home (no electricity, water, medical facilities), but it is original research to try and tie the 255k number to 'cannot return now because homes were destroyed'. As for sources, it seems the 500k number for Israeli displaced comes from the HRW reports here and here, though I recall seeing them elsewhere if you seriously dispute this number. I'm sorry that you 'feel sick', but I would hope that you assume good faith and respond to these arguments. Tewfik Talk 15:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The operative word here is concise. Everyone is a temporary IDP - they are only IDPs until they aren't. The distinction about who can return home and who can't is totally unsupported by the sources. All we know is who has returned so far, and who has yet to. Tewfik Talk 15:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Are we now going to add this important information for every other conflict or will it be reserved for Middle East exclusively? Seriously, this kind of (laughable) statistics side by side with thousands of dead and mass graves makes this article hardly encyclopedic. What was the point in addinig it? To show that Lebanese do not treat their people for shock? I suggest removing this "treated for shock" altogether. -- Magabund 11:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's really funny. -- Hossein.ir 11:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
When the subject matter is a war one of the most important pieces of information that interests people and helps them understand what really happened is to learn about the destruction caused by this war. I understand it’s difficult to maintain neutrality in a subject as emotionally charged as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Precisely for this reason I find it particularly useful to include facts about this conflict’s human and material costs on both sides, so that the readers can build their concept about the war based on objective data. I think that to deny the readers such information is unconscionable. Tewfik claims that such lists don’t belong here. Why? Is there any piece of information in this list that is redundant or insignificant in an encyclopedia? Tewfik also claims that this information should not be put in the lead. Why not? I think that the consequences of a war are one of the most basic facts about it and should be in the lead. So before deleting this well-referenced and relevant information for the third time Tewfik please state your reasons here.
Incidentally, the other important information I would like to have in the lead is about the reasons that led to this war. The article’s lead as it now stands leaves the reader with the impression that Israel bombed and invaded Lebanon because of the killing of three and the capture of two of its soldiers on July 12. I personally find this ludicrous and actually unfair for Israel. I don’t feel knowledgeable enough to correct this, but isn’t it fair to state that the reason for Israel’s actions was the increasing strength of Hezbollah military presence north of Israel’s border and the menace this represented for Israel - and that Hezbollah’s raid was only the spark that started the conflagration? And wouldn’t it be fair to state that the reason of Hezbollah’s actions on July 12 was to achieve a prisoner exchange of Israel, which holds thousands of Palestinians as well as a few Lebanese? Dianelos 18:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This information is already included in the appropriate parts of the article. The WP:Lead is not the place to list all the destruction caused in the conflict, especially not to only one side. And whatever underlying tensions and reasons may have been present, the casus belli is not disputed, and it should not be replaced with analysis. Tewfik Talk 01:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, please review the definition of vandalism. There is nothing "hidden," as the relevant numbers are already included in the appropriate parts of the article body - if you feel something is missing, include it in a neutral manner. However the WP:Lead is not the place for a detailed fleshing out of the article or a listing of all the damage, especially when it is one sided. Tewfik Talk 16:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of a chart (or could make one) that shows the percentages of casualties suffered by each side? Carbonate 01:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It wouldn't be too hard to whip up in excel, I'd imagine. Wouldn't it be better in Casualties of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, though? Iorek85 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The bombing chart provided by samidoun.org should be removed or changed to something coming from an NPOV source. Samidoun.org, while primarily a relief organization, is not the Red Cross or even Amnesty International. Their website contains materials demonizing Israel as racist and they definitely are non neutral. Claymoney 18:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The picture is factually correct, I see no reason why it should be changed... if you can prove that its not factually correct, than fine, but as long as it is factually correct it should remain; Amnesty International and the Lebanese Red Cross are not the only two organisations out there, and the chart is very informative. What the organisations claims Israel is or isn't does not in any way make the chart inaccurate. Amjra 19:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Kosmopolis, please don't keep on adding those details to the lead. It's making it far too long and overly detailed. See WP:LEAD for how to write a lead section and for advice about length. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I know there was some violence after the ceasefire, but I don't think it's accurate to say that the conflict is still on. The last recorded violence was (according to the page) was on August 19, over two weeks ago. Iorek85 02:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | → | Archive 35 |
The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 23:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict → Israel-Lebanon conflict (2006) – Conform to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history#Naming_conventions and does not begin with a number … Please share your opinion at Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Avi 22:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "# Support", "# Oppose", or "# Neutral" in the proper section followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
I think it should be Israel-Hezbollah War (2006) or Israel-Lebanon War (2006) -- Doom777 15:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Should this be renamed to Israel+Lebanon-Hezbollah conflict? This isn't a conflict with the Lebanese Government. It is with Hezbollah and both the Lebanese Government and the Israeli Government are teamed up on this one. 203.158.32.23 14:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Israel is not teaming up with the lebanese government. That's BS. Article name is good as it is. -- Zonerocks 16:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
They have!!! Israel even took in some refugees for them. 203.217.83.31 15:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The survey above is getting tricky because there are so many different choices, it's not clear what anyone is voting for. I propose the following survey.
Note that per WP:STRAW, we need to agree on the survey before we vote, so this survey proposal is for discussion purposes only and not for voting. Once we have consensus on a survey form, I'll post it and we can vote.
Survey proposal:
This survey is to assess community opinion about possible renames of this article. There are three separate issues about which to vote.
I know it's complex. Alternately, we could try running each one of those straw polls separately, one per week. Thoughts? TheronJ 18:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
(This section appears to have been deleted by accident [1] - I have added it back in. TheronJ 15:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC))
Name it Most talked about war of 2006 ;) 203.217.83.31 15:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I see now that the Hebrew Wikipedia has renamed their article (belatedly, I think) to "the Second Lebanon War" and now with this as an encyclopedic (as opposed to journalistic, of which there are plenty) reference, I'm inclined to rename the article to 2006 Israel-Lebanon war (i.e. beyond a conflict). So unless there are objections, I'll be implementing the move in the near future. Thanks. El_C 08:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro currently says "Israel held the Lebanese government responsible for the attack..." which would suggest Israel went after Lebanon and not Hizballah. I think this is incorrect, and that the distinction is important. Are there any references to support that?
And perhaps the next paragraph should be phrased differently -- the attacks weren't arbitrarily on Lebanon but were aiming to achieve some goals. E.g., sea blockade to prevent Hizballah rearmament and transportation of the abducted soldiers, etc. ehudshapira 05:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I have updated the casus belli to include the Lebanese version with appropriate citation to counteract the POV being expresed by those who are pro-Israel that Hezbollah started the conflict by crossing into Israel, kiling 8 soldiers and kidnapping two. Here is my addition: "Lebanon: IDF soldiers crossed into Lebanon and were captured by local Lebanese police, subsequently resulting in Israel attacking Lebanon." My current reference is a Forbes article by Joseph Panossian since one editor decided that a Bahrain news source isn't reliable enough and decided to revert my edit. I trust that anything other than an American or Israeli news source would not be considered reliable so I have chosen to go with the reliable because not once has this edit been changed without discussing it with me but several times. It's clear what the person's POV is and that they do not want anything posted that contradicts that view but it's important that Wikipedia does not reflect the narrow POV of a few editors. There is a world that is larger than the United States and while many editors may be Americans it is important to keep in mind that Wikipedia is not the place to promote our POV. [3] Edward Lalone 21:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm very concerned that this article is not following the NPOV policy of Wikipedia.
The facts as to the cause of the conflict are in dispute and I believe that the standard that applies here is Information Suppression, which states "In Wikipedia, one of the most common forms of violating the NPOV policy is to selectively cite some information that supports one view whilst deleting or trivializing other information that opposes it. In this manner, one can completely misrepresent or conceal the full range of views on a subject whilst still complying with Wikipedia:Verifiability." I believe that this is taking place in this article specifically in respect to the cause of the conflict. If a reliable source disputes these reports and has provided evidence that refutes the claim it should be linked to but we should assume that the claim is based on factual evidence until it has been demonstrated to be false. I've decided to focus on this issue as a part of the Neutrality Project because I feel it is important enough to warrant attention. Edward Lalone 01:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
First, on July 12 Michael Hirsch writing for MSNBC wrote "After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah in Lebanon on Wednesday, which the hard-line group linked to a similar kidnapping by Hamas the week before, the Mideast seemed to be closer to all-out war." [4] Joseph Pannossian writing for AP states "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon..." [5]. Both of these articles were written on July 12th. Both would later change their reports.
Second, according to Reuters the Israeli army "confirmed that two Israeli soldiers had been captured on the Lebanese frontier" [6]. This reinforces the previous two reports and adds an additional issue that should be discussed. If the Israeli army did in fact confirm the report that the capture of the soldiers took place inside of Lebanon than the report by AP, and the other wire services which I will mention below is reinforced. Reuters actually reports that the Israeli's confirmed the report that the capture took place inside of Lebanon and not in Israel. In addition to AP and Reuters the Agence France Presse and the Deutsche Presse Agentur wire services confirm in their reports that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon. That these wire services would have compiled their reports independent of each other re-inforces the validity of all four reports. That Reuters sought comment from and received confirmation of their story from the Israeli army does much to validate the original reports.
Tewfik has written "This is the original AP report to which we devoted so much discussion many weeks ago, and there is no reason to do it again." So if you do not wish to discuss the AP report we can discuss the Reuters, Agence France Presse or the Deutsche Presse Agentur reports. Yet my objection remains that this information is being suppressed in violation of the NPOV policy by "selectively citing some information that supports one view whilst deleting or trivializing other information that opposes it." He also attempts to make the point out that a consensus has been reached and has even suggested that we "should make a list at the top of the Talk page listing the basic points that the consensus holds here." It is not a consensus that we are attempting to reach as to fact. We are not discussing opinion or the point of views but actual important information that would help people understand this conflict and how those here with a POV (regardless if they make up a consensus) are suppressing that information so as to advance their POV. We all have point of views and therefore it is even more important that information that deals with something as important as the cause of the conflict is not suppressed. Edward Lalone 01:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Edward Lalone, you are welcome to add the position that the raid took place in Lebanon just as soon as you can source it. As of now, there is not a single reliable source that makes this claim, nor do any of the parties involved make this claim. No one (except for on this Talk) makes this claim. Mistakes are always made in reporting news, especially in initial reports that lack clarity. The position that the initial reports from this conflict should be presented as an alternative claim as to what happened is original research, since again, no one claims that these sources were subsequently covered up or any such idea. Again, if an RS actually put forward this argument, then we might include it with the proper weight, but no one does so. I hope I was able to clarify this for you. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that there have been no peace between Israel and Lebanon so there has been a low intensity warfare going on for may years. // Liftarn
Is the logic that Hisbollah started it because they "hit back first"? Does wikipedia have some sort of goodlike ability to see that there were absolutely no other preseding event?
Why is kidnapping of the two Palestininans been disqualified as a starting event? Or any other atrocity that has been committed since 5 decades back?
Maby you can use your "special powers" to finally answer the question, which was first the hen or the egg. I will look forward to the results. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.250.213.2 ( talk • contribs).
Because we aren't discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict, but rather a specific event, which was immediately prompted by Hezbollah's raid. Others can feel free to expand if it becomes necessary... (my mouth is dry). Tewfik Talk 02:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not written in a NPOV way. It should be rewritten. Thank you. 203.217.83.31 09:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes Iorek85, the article looks fine to me. I might suggest, however, that the tile is pro-Israel. I cite the recent title change to "Post-ceasefire conflict." This title implies that there was a conflict, (of an undefined nature), following the cease-fire. It fails to imform that the primary conflict was caused by Israel breaching the cease-fire. Again, my complaint refers to the title, not the article. Bridarshy 07:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Tewfik, you are right, you were not misunderstood. I am wrong for using the word "precede". I should have said "folllowing". (I have edited my old entry.) Precede, of course, has the opposite meaning of following. I apologize for the confusion. Bridarshy 00:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
. In any event, there were actions on both sides, and at least the US's stated intention in the resolution's drafting wouldn't support the contention that the Israeli action was a violation, hence the neutral heading. Cheers,
Tewfik
Talk
07:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Israel biasness. Problems:
The real criteria for military victory: 1. "Possession" of the field of battle 2. casualties as a percentage of troops of each army. 3. Damage to military and economic assets as a percentage of total assets. In these 3 areas, Israel was clearly more successful. User: Jaywhite 06 Sept 3,2006
Please feel free to add some more points. Thank you. 203.217.83.31 15:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Pro-Israel biasness. Problems:
Please feel free to add some more points. Thank you. (But seriously, there are no major issues with this article as far as I can tell.) // Liftarn 17:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
--- I just added a sentence in the "initial reviews" section pointing out that israel did not accomplish the goals stated by Olmert at the beginning of the conflict. I hope this is not seen as POV... it has been widely acknowledged in both the international and israeli press, and I think it may be more reasonable to assess "who lost" rather than "who won" in this conflict.
Please try to note that an article can have statements in it that show bias towards either side. One section may state as face items contradicted in another section for instance. Having it 50% statements biased to Isreal, and 50% of statements biased against, does not make a 'Balanced and Neutral Article'. Each item that may be biased should be adressed on a unique basis, ignorant of any 'balencing' bias also in the article.
There may be confusion that giving 'equal time' to the different points of view is the same as presenting a ballenced view. This is not correct, and we should report POV with due weight, not represent POV. -- Barberio 18:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a real problem, but some editors remove every edit that tries to fix this. If you don't agree with me, try fixing the problems you've mentioned. Good luck. :-) -- Hossein.ir 12:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The article lacks some events which were all over the news media, events which surely stay in history as part of this war - for instance the Qana bombing and the bombing of 4 UN observers. NPOV does not mean everyone has to like the article. The article should cover all events as they were, and do so in a neutral language. That gives rise to true NPOV. Then, if someone has a problem with the article, it is because of the article violating their own bias or expectations of (non-objective) truth. --Anonymous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.233.195.92 ( talk • contribs).
I found the Hebrew name of "Operation Just Reward" in Archive 1: - שכר הולם. Is there a name in Arabic for the Hezbollah operation, "Operation Truthful Promise"? Vints 15:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that in order to keep this article neutral it is necessary to remove the opinions of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch which are clearly anti-Israel organizations - Check out their wikipedia articles. It is fine to keep their statements but to change them as statements that were made by Hizballah speakers-They made very close statements.
10:13, 28 August 2006 (CET)
Are there any honest brokers out there anymore? You have to admit that democratic governmeents are being held to a higher standard than non-democratic instituations by these so-called non-political organizations? This, by itself, is unfair and shows the bias One example is the way AI and HRW treats executions. An execution in the US is protested regularly and loudly as a vile abuse of human rights while an execution committed on the streets of Gaza bearly gets a complaint. Is a life in the US worth more than a life in the Gaza Strip? In the US, executions only take place after years or appeals while an execution in other parts of the world are done without even a trial. The same thing is true of the way AI and HRW treats prisons and prisioners in the US and Israel compared to the numerous prision camps in the rest of the world. I really wish AI and HRW were non-political so we could take their reports and comments as facts, but whatever is said by these organizations should be taken as opinions, no more or no less of value than an opposing opinion. (P.S. Remember the reports of the humane treatment of prisioners reported by the Red Cross during World War II?) user:mnw2000 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I refer to the archived United Nations forces, Indonesia, Malaysia and Israel, sources are AP at Yahoo!, Malaysian national news agency, AP at MSNBC and WaPo. We definitely should include the planned UN forces here which would include the French sending only 200 troops and Israeli objection to initial composition of the forces. __earth ( Talk) 03:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
How can Israel work with troops from a country that it does not have relations with? The resolution requires the forces to coordinate with Lebanon and Isreal. Maybe the countries that want to be part of the peacekeeping force should be required to recognized Israel (short of full diplomatic recognition). After all, if these countries don't even recognize Israel's right to exist, how can they be expected to protect a country (and its people) that they don't even recognize exist? user:mnw2000 20:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is Lebanon now in the same category of combatants as Hizbollah? Nwe 16:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I go away on holiday for a few days and find that this item, much discussed on the talk page, has been removed by - surprise-surprise - Tewfik. Tewfik suggested it should go in a sub-article, I asked him where he thought would be a good place and at that point he bailed out of the debate. 2 days later, after no substantiated objections (except some offensive ranting from a poster called aleverde), I put in 2 lines in the "Historical background" section. This has been deleted for apparently overburdening an "overcrowded" article. This is a joke of a reason. Tewfik, come up with something better or I will edit it back in, because it is clearly a relevent piece of information. Fig 17:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
). Just to reiterate, I think there may be a place for a few short lines, though I'm not sure that a claim with the issues listed above should really even be afforded that much, despite its author's notability.
Tewfik
Talk
01:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you think I'm 'wriggling,' as I'm trying to be as clear as possible. I don't think it should go in the main article due to the issues discussed above. If you think it should go into the Timeline or some other subarticle I would be willing to discuss that, but I don't think it would deserve very much space even there. Tewfik Talk 16:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The Parry source does not engage in this debate, but merely puts kidnaping in quotation marks once. The Chomsky source does discuss this point, but that is hardly evidence of a widespread debate, which is what the section you keep adding claims exists. While I appreciate that you provided sources, the passage is still unsourced OR that reads more like a summary of the Talk on this page than any external debate (which was noted by Rangeley), and this single source is no reason to keep it. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 20:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
How on earth was the U.N a combatant? Should was add the nationalities of all the international people killed as combatants, too? If you didn't fight back, you aren't a combatant. The current box makes it look like the U.N was involved in the fighting, which it plainly wasn't. Iorek85 23:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It's been a week, now. At what point do we stop using these varying "estimates" from the tourism minister, etc., and start using Israel's confirmed Hezbollah headcount? At what point should these "estimates" be disregarded for statistical purposes, given the IDF is also releasing confirmed kill counts? Thanks, Italiavivi 22:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
They are getting way too long. I think that post conflict, the news links are no longer needed unless they give a special insight to the conflict - before, they were good as they allowed quick access to updated news, but that's irrelevent now. Maybe even the blogs, since the conflict is over. Iorek85 00:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Image:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict titlepic.png What do you think, I think it would be proper to show the several aspects of the war.-- TheFEARgod 12:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I like it! Nice work. Iorek85 12:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a remark that the INFO box on the lebanees map depicting Israely bombings ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Locations_bombed_Aug13.jpg) is rather biased against Israel. The remark that "Factories,warehouse..... CHURCHES AND MOSQUES ... were bombed" is false. The remark that "Reported Israel use of internationaly banned bombs" is False.
The image is not in the public domain and can not be used in an altered condition without obtaining permission. Regardless of any factual errors in the sidebar, the main focus of the image is to show the distribution of attacks on Lebanon by Israel and it seems to do that accurately. If you want to modify the image and post a new one, you must obtain permission. I nominated the altered image for deletion and it seems to have already happened. Carbonate 04:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
* to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work * to make derivative works * to make commercial use of the work
Under the following conditions: by Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor. sa Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a license identical to this one. I have created a derivative work, which is allowed, since I have properly attributed the work and disributed it under an identical license. I can't find your nomination for deletion - could you pint me to it? Isarig 18:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This term is used incorrectly throughout the article and extremely skews the degree of damage to civilian infrastructure.
1,000,000 is the widely cited number of Lebanese civilians that were fleeing their homes for the time of the Israeli attacks. Der Spiegel writes about Uno estimating that 200,000 Lebanese were not able to return to their homes. 130,000 homes are said to be damaged or destroyed (50,000 of which in southern Beirut suburbs). The GOL Higher Relief Council (HRC) reports that nearly 975,000 Lebanese fled their homes at the height of emergency. It estimates that 718,000 displaced persons have returned to their home areas since August 14, leaving 257,000 internally displaced persons (I guess the rounding is safe).
However, I don't see the number of 500,000 Israeli civilians anywhere. NYT speaks of 300,000, and I don't know where they got their numbers from. People that stayed temporarily at friends' or relatives' homes to avoid getting hurt by rockets are hardly displaced. In any case, I guess the number of Israeli civilians that are not back in their homes by now is more like...uhm...10. I am waiting for someone to source reliable numbers.
I am going to edit the article according to these data points and will remove the action item from the top of this page. Kosmopolis 00:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time to research now, but do you actually dispute the NYT claim? What is gained by erasing reference to the other sides' displaced? And who said that displaced is limited to "home is gone"? Tewfik Talk 23:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
How can you know who "will never have" a home? Displaced doesn't mean that one's home has been destroyed - I don't think anyone is arguing that the homes of 1,000,000 Lebanese were destroyed. I'm sure that you're only acting out of the best intention, but totally removing reference to one side's displaced doesn't serve to increase neutrality in this article, so I'm restoring the passage. We must recognise that suffering can be experienced by both sides in a conflict like this. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 03:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you are currently trying to redefine what displaced means. We are not talking about displaced at 18:30, 1 August 2024 UTC [ refresh, but rather the total displaced throughout the entire conflict. The USAID report that you are citing says:
There are lots of possible reasons for why people haven't returned home (no electricity, water, medical facilities), but it is original research to try and tie the 255k number to 'cannot return now because homes were destroyed'. As for sources, it seems the 500k number for Israeli displaced comes from the HRW reports here and here, though I recall seeing them elsewhere if you seriously dispute this number. I'm sorry that you 'feel sick', but I would hope that you assume good faith and respond to these arguments. Tewfik Talk 15:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The operative word here is concise. Everyone is a temporary IDP - they are only IDPs until they aren't. The distinction about who can return home and who can't is totally unsupported by the sources. All we know is who has returned so far, and who has yet to. Tewfik Talk 15:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Are we now going to add this important information for every other conflict or will it be reserved for Middle East exclusively? Seriously, this kind of (laughable) statistics side by side with thousands of dead and mass graves makes this article hardly encyclopedic. What was the point in addinig it? To show that Lebanese do not treat their people for shock? I suggest removing this "treated for shock" altogether. -- Magabund 11:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's really funny. -- Hossein.ir 11:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
When the subject matter is a war one of the most important pieces of information that interests people and helps them understand what really happened is to learn about the destruction caused by this war. I understand it’s difficult to maintain neutrality in a subject as emotionally charged as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Precisely for this reason I find it particularly useful to include facts about this conflict’s human and material costs on both sides, so that the readers can build their concept about the war based on objective data. I think that to deny the readers such information is unconscionable. Tewfik claims that such lists don’t belong here. Why? Is there any piece of information in this list that is redundant or insignificant in an encyclopedia? Tewfik also claims that this information should not be put in the lead. Why not? I think that the consequences of a war are one of the most basic facts about it and should be in the lead. So before deleting this well-referenced and relevant information for the third time Tewfik please state your reasons here.
Incidentally, the other important information I would like to have in the lead is about the reasons that led to this war. The article’s lead as it now stands leaves the reader with the impression that Israel bombed and invaded Lebanon because of the killing of three and the capture of two of its soldiers on July 12. I personally find this ludicrous and actually unfair for Israel. I don’t feel knowledgeable enough to correct this, but isn’t it fair to state that the reason for Israel’s actions was the increasing strength of Hezbollah military presence north of Israel’s border and the menace this represented for Israel - and that Hezbollah’s raid was only the spark that started the conflagration? And wouldn’t it be fair to state that the reason of Hezbollah’s actions on July 12 was to achieve a prisoner exchange of Israel, which holds thousands of Palestinians as well as a few Lebanese? Dianelos 18:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This information is already included in the appropriate parts of the article. The WP:Lead is not the place to list all the destruction caused in the conflict, especially not to only one side. And whatever underlying tensions and reasons may have been present, the casus belli is not disputed, and it should not be replaced with analysis. Tewfik Talk 01:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, please review the definition of vandalism. There is nothing "hidden," as the relevant numbers are already included in the appropriate parts of the article body - if you feel something is missing, include it in a neutral manner. However the WP:Lead is not the place for a detailed fleshing out of the article or a listing of all the damage, especially when it is one sided. Tewfik Talk 16:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of a chart (or could make one) that shows the percentages of casualties suffered by each side? Carbonate 01:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It wouldn't be too hard to whip up in excel, I'd imagine. Wouldn't it be better in Casualties of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, though? Iorek85 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The bombing chart provided by samidoun.org should be removed or changed to something coming from an NPOV source. Samidoun.org, while primarily a relief organization, is not the Red Cross or even Amnesty International. Their website contains materials demonizing Israel as racist and they definitely are non neutral. Claymoney 18:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The picture is factually correct, I see no reason why it should be changed... if you can prove that its not factually correct, than fine, but as long as it is factually correct it should remain; Amnesty International and the Lebanese Red Cross are not the only two organisations out there, and the chart is very informative. What the organisations claims Israel is or isn't does not in any way make the chart inaccurate. Amjra 19:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Kosmopolis, please don't keep on adding those details to the lead. It's making it far too long and overly detailed. See WP:LEAD for how to write a lead section and for advice about length. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I know there was some violence after the ceasefire, but I don't think it's accurate to say that the conflict is still on. The last recorded violence was (according to the page) was on August 19, over two weeks ago. Iorek85 02:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)