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How come Israeli civilian casualties do not have a "range" and Lebanese do? So you accept the word of the Israeli government but not the Lebanese?
Blatant BIAS—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rm uk ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The international press agrees on the number of Israelis, while there is a wide range reported for the Lebanese (which doesn't even touch on the issue of distinguishing civilians), which is where the 1009 number came from. Tewfik Talk 02:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't seen the source, and you haven't provided a link. Be mindful of WP:Point. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't concerned with truth, only with verifiability. The Israeli numbers can be verified and are agreed on by the international media, and the Lebanese numbers are not, but rather there are several different numbers (hence the range). The fact that the official Israeli count concurs with the verifiable number doesn't make it less verifiable. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 15:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Another reason for the lack of accuracy in Lebanese figures is that two Lebanese government branches were reporting different counts -- ~700 and ~1000. ehudshapira 00:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not have time to check and re-check again, my israeli sources told me over 120 soldiers dead and 55 civilians, at least 5 commandos, today on the raid at least one soldier dead, this time no hezbolla, except 3 wounded, if somebody has more evidence check on the accuracy on casualties on boths sides. Remember, the first casualty in war is truth.
Right now the infobox says 954 but the ref doesn't agree. It says more than 900 Lebanese (and 159 Israeli, which would suggest the Lebanese figure is also including non-civilians). ehudshapira 00:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Conclusions, Environmental consequences, Israeli Airstirke in Eastern Lebanon: Hezbollah Stronghold, News, Iran is listed as an Arab country, Seymour Hersh allegation, Temporal Scope of Article, 10 rockets fired in Southern Lebanon, Israel breaks cease fire, New yorker, Disputed casualty figures?, United Nations force, Israel, Malaysia and Indonesia, "Results of the conflict", New beginning: Lebanon Raid
Hizballa's pretexts:
Israel, unlike its enemies, does distinguish between the two terms when it comes to facts. In Israeli press, Ron Arad is described as indeed POW ("captured"), and Mustafa Dirani as "abducted" by Israel in order to retrieve information on Arad (Dirani released in 2000 deal). But the soldiers in 2006 were clearly "abducted". Thus, the soldiers are abducted, and not "captured". Taken for future human ransom, taken to blackmail Israel, despite the fact that Kuntar's non-releasing was due to Nasrallah's, not Israel's, behaviour regarding the previous abduction treaty. This is fact, and not a point of view. The phrase that is "point of view", is "captured". Aleverde 21:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
While the proper term is certainly a matter of debate, that they were taken for ransom is stated by the Hezbollah, so while it may not be a good stylistic alternative, it is accurate and neutral. Tewfik Talk 17:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wait, who's release? Do we have an article for the previous treaty? -- Kendrick7 20:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
.
Tewfik
Talk
20:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
How would people feel about using "seized" as an alternative to "captured", "kidnapped" or "abducted"? -- ChrisO 19:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to "seize". If anyone wants to open another vote, let him/her do it, because I don't know how to do this (a bit new on Wikipedia). I've already done this before but it was erased of course. It's also not clear from the previous vote what term was to be used. And see FACTS first (at the top of the section) that clearly indicate that this was not an ordinary military capturing of counterpart's soldiers. -- Aleverde 12:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I read an article that the captured/abducted soldiers were actually in Lebanon/Gaza - true/not true? Sheeba Farms - when did it become Israel's? Syria and Lebanon have both claimed it at times - Israel has a UN resolution #? that says to leave - whose ever it is it isn't Israel's it seems. PS The Golan Heights article doesn't mention Sheeba Farms or the Litani River - if you want consistency then you had better edit that article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 ( talk • contribs).
The cease-fire has just been violated, where do we put that. Do we put this in the Resolution article, or in the conflict article -- Deenoe 14:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
There should be a section dedicated to the violation of the ceasefire. There is no doubt that it is a violation since there were no conditions attached to resolution 1701 for stopping hostilities related to "arms smuggling" or whatever else Israel claims.
Can someone please write the new section?
-- Burgas00 14:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hum should Violations of current cease-fire should be under Cease fire Attempts, or a new section.. cause it's not really an attempt.. Cease fire has been achieved and then violated. -- Deenoe 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
To make this topic more NPOV, I suggest we change its name from "Violations of current ceasefire" to "Post-ceasefire violence." If nobody disagrees in 24 hours, I'm going to do it. -- GHcool 15:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The u.n ceasefire resolution clearly calls on disarming hezbullah. Days after the cease fire took effect however the lebanese government and hezbullah agreed that the group would not be disarmed. simple as that. Isn't that a clear violation of the ceasefire? shouldn't that be mentioned above everything else despite the lack of violence? (BKAP23)
Could someone able to access the
Economist's article on the outcome provide a copy of the relevant passages, as the title, "Hizbullah's shallow victory," seems to suggest that they aren't characterising the outcome as a "military and political victory," though of course not having read the article, I could be wrong
. Cheers,
Tewfik
Talk
06:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
An israeli image saying israel won should be on this article. If not the hezbollah one should be deleted. -- Zonerocks 06:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I read The Economist secularly :) since age 10, and seldom are they wrong in this type of stuff. I know its a tought pill to swallow, but never forget the not irrelevant role The Economist played in British support for Zionism before you pull an Aleverde and start accusing everyone of being an anti-semite. The fact is that Olmert set hilariously impossible standards (destruction of Hezbollah) which are objectively impossible to meet. Hence Nasrallah, who is everything but stupid, is capitalizing on this. As I said, the IDF is but a shadow of its six-day war self, and this shows.-- Cerejota 20:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The Economist is wrong about who won the conflict militarily . Hezbollah suffered at least 5 times the casualties Israel suffered despite fighting on the defensive from state of the art fortifications..When Hezbollah engaged in firefights they were usually wiped out. Hezbollah only survived because they wore no uniforms and surrounded themselves with civilians and used the media especially the very biased British media to broadcast their propaganda.How can anyone rely on one article after all the fabrications that were exposed during this war. I heard a podcast of two recognized, objective military experts : Jim Dunnigan and Austin Bay who felt the IDF was effective and it would only be a matter of time for Israel to totally eradicate Hizballoh. The IDF ,to minimize casaulties needed another six weeks to totally eradicate Hezbollah.It was due to political considerations that Hizbollah survived. If outside parties did not intervene Hezbollah would not exist as fighting force today.A comparison with the battle of Iwo Jima is accurate. Although, the Japanese managed to hold out much longer than expected and inflicted more casaulties than expected ,it was only a matter of time before they were totally destroyed. Israel decided it wasn't worth antagonizing their closest ally (USA) to finish off Hezbollah. Jim Dunnigan was the only military pundit who correctly predicted US battlefield deaths in first Gulf War as 100-200 rather than the 30,000-40,000 predicted by almost everyone including the US military (which had 30,000 body bags available ) Cerejota :the Israeli casaulty rate in this conflict was 1/10 of that in 1967 war. Despite what biased media report ,Hezbollah was the loser by any accepted definition of military victory User: Jaywhite06 September 2,2006.
First of all, its been a great 5 weeks so far on this page, but now that we've finally come off the Main Page, I'd like to suggest some focus on cleaning up the 40 sub (and subsub[!]) articles. I personally think that aside from lots of basic cleanup, many of them may be due for merging, as much of the detail seems to be either redundant to other pages, to consist of irrelevant minutiae, or both. And in all honesty, without minimising the human loss of this event, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near the scale of a conflict requiring this much documentation. Of course, that is just my opinion, and I'd like to hear everyone else's take on the problems and how we might go about fixing them. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In any conflict there are only two sides (irrespective of the nations/factions/groups or any other factors within one side like in the world war). The warbox in this article shows there are three sides. See "Wars are usually a series of military campaigns between two opposing sides involving a dispute" as per the War article. Lebanon and Hezbollah were on one side with Israel on the other, so instead of trying to show the war as some kind of three way fight (this isn't the final standoff of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly).
So I propose that Hezbollah and Lebanon section of strength, casualty and other information be shown in italics to differentiate or to draw a subbox within the box to group the two so as to show an uninformed user that these two were basically on one side and Israel on the other. I'm ready for any other suggestions. simply grouping lebanon and hezbollah's stats in one section will not be reader friendly but three sides of a conflict isn't correct as it is. -- Idleguy 13:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I support a hezbollah-Israel box only too.-- TheFEARgod 11:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is written in biassed way "The conflict began when a Hezbollah unit conducted a cross-border raid, capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three. Israel responded with massive air strikes " This suggests that Hezbollah is the aggressor and the conflict is new. The conflict started June 6, 1982. This conflict should be renamed to 2006 escalation of Israel-Lebanon conflict."Israel began to withdraw some of its forces from the country. A full withdrawal is not expected until the enlarged UNIFIL force has arrived." This would be predicting the future and should be removed.
"Time line of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict" Time lines should be removed. There have been bombardment across the boarder by both sides and taking of prisoners or kidnapping civilians before July 12 2006 also Israel has occupied Part of Lebanon for over 24 years. The time line makes this article biased in representing this conflict. -- Mtjs0 18:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest changing this -"The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is a military conflict in Lebanon and northern Israel, primarily between Hezbollah and Israel, which started on 12 July 2006. A United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on 14 August 2006. Since then, fighting has largely ceased.
The conflict began when a Hezbollah unit conducted a cross-border raid, capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three. Israel responded with massive airstrikes across much of Lebanon, a ground invasion of southern Lebanon, and an air and naval blockade, while Hezbollah launched thousands of rockets into northern Israel and engaged the Israeli Army on the ground by guerrilla warfare.
The conflict has killed over a thousand people, mostly Lebanese civilians, damaged infrastructure, displaced more than a million Lebanese and 500,000 Israelis, and disrupted normal life across all of Lebanon and northern Israel. Attacks by both sides on civilian population centers and infrastructure have drawn sharp criticism internationally.
On 11 August, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, in an effort to end the hostilities. On 12 August, the Lebanese government and Hezbollah approved the resolution, and on 13 August the Israeli government did the same.
On 17 August, the Lebanese army began deploying its forces in southern Lebanon as part of the agreement, and Israel began to withdraw some of its forces from the country. A full withdrawal is not expected until the enlarged UNIFIL force has arrived."
->"The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict refers to hostilities in southern Lebanon and northern Israel, primarily between Hezbollah and Israel, which escalated on 13 July 2006 to a broad conflict. A United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on 14 August 2006. Since then, fighting has mostly ceased.
On 11 August, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, in an effort to end the hostilities. On 12 August, the Lebanese government and Hezbollah approved the resolution, and on 13 August the Israeli government did the same."
If there is a rundown list of event it should be written in neutral manner and without causal connections
"The events before escalation of the conflict include on 12 July 2006 Hezbollah unit capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three." "13 July 2006 Israel airstrikes Lebanon" -- Mtjs0 09:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this would be a better line: The escalated conflict began in earnest when Israel launched a large scale military campaign in response to a border incident with Hezbollah in which two Israeli soldiers were captured and three were killed.
Dimensional dan
14:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
it appears that the Hezbollah currently gains enormous popular support by their professional rebuilding campaign. They also seem to know their PR, with multilingual announcements of "divine victory". It appears that the slogan is a play on the name of Nasrallah -- could somebody elucidate this aspect? The article seems to be concentrating on the military confrontation, but it seems evident that Hezbollah's dealing with the aftermath of the attack is much more decisive in turning the whole affair to their advantage. dab (ᛏ) 11:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
In reading through the infobox it creates an interesting problem, the number given for civilian deaths if I am understanding it right, is the number given by Lebanon for total deaths, not specifying civilian or not. Is this true? Perhaps a range should be used for this location excluding confirmed militants and IDF militant death numbers. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 14:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I have manupilated the data so it looks nicer (content (nubers etc) has not been changed). I furthermore added redundent commets to make the illegable comment readable. Furthermore, I recommend the citation to be moved outside of the infobox. -- Cat out 17:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone has removed the amnesty report that Israel committed war-crimes http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lbn-230806-feature-eng. I think it is fair to include this. ( 158.143.133.54 17:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC))
It is not removed, it is footnote #73. No need to worry
--
Avi
18:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
As somebody mentioned yesterday, too many links are removed, there were war crimes in Lebanon and much more, it's important those links stay there, now, attack on hezbollah is ok, on civilians, never.
Hezbollah ONLY attacked civilians. 250 rockets per day on civilian cities. With rockets that are so inaccurate that they are unable to be used against a military. That should be mentioned in the first paragraph of any such description.
Clearly allegations of war crimes merits its own section. I've started one very tentatively. If others agree I'll make the rearrangements Trachys 15:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I put the number of Hezbollah fighters as 600-1000 according to the ISS report. But the figure seems to me to be a bit on the low side. If anybody has more accurate figures, please feel free to replace mine. Abu ali 09:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Tewfik: Besides other unexplainable edits you have made of this section, please explain why you constantly erase part of the sentence referring to article 8 of the UN resolution. -- Burgas00 14:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
As it is totally out of context, and placed there merely to neutralise the Hezbollah statement that they do not intend to disarm, it is not NPOV. The resolution doesn't just call for Israel to leave, and the preceding statement has nothing to do with Israel leaving. If there are other "unexplainable edits," feel free to request explanation. Also, the violations are "alleged" until you can provide a source the definitively says they aren't - we aren't here to rule on international law. Tewfik Talk 16:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Resolution 1701, Article 8:
“8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution based on the following principles and elements:
-- full respect for the Blue Line by both parties;
-- security arrangements to prevent the resumption of hostilities, including the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11, deployed in this area;
-- full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of 27 July 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese State;
-- no foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its Government;
-- no sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its Government;
-- provision to the United Nations of all remaining maps of land mines in Lebanon in Israel’s possession;
Mentioning the contents of article 8 are very relevant considering Israel is also in violation of this article (it does not have Lebanese consent for invading Lebanon). What is NPOV is attempting to hide this fact and attempting to give a sense of legality to the israeli violation of the ceasefire.
There is a clear bias in this section which you are spearheading. Some of the edits are actually quite juvenile, like claiming that it was the spokesman of Kofi Annan and not the Secretary General himself who stated that the Israelis were violating the ceasefire.
Considering that Israel (and to a much lesser extent, Hizbollah) has continued hostilities after the cease fire which called for: (article 1) “ a full cessation of hostilities based upon, in particular, the immediate cessation by Hizbollah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations;"
Considering Kofi Annan's statements that Israel was in violation of a security council resolution in bombing hizbollah positions,
The inclusion of the word "alleged" is tendentious and biased as well as baseless.
-- Burgas00 18:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Rangely, it seems to me that it is you who is missing the point. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral and to include rather than exclude information. There is nothing wrong in pointing out that neither hizbollah nor Israel have yet fulfilled all of the aims of resolution 1701 and particularly article 8:
Mark Regev claiming that it is in accordance with resolution 1701 to continue bombing Lebanon because of alleged arms transfers from Syria is equivalent to Hizbollah attacking Israel while claiming it is not violating the ceasefire because Israeli troops are still present in Lebanese soil.
There is clearly a bias in this article mantained by editors who want to argue for the legality of all of Israel's actions and the illegality of those of Hizbollah. It is this bias which is unwelcome on wikipedia, not me pointing it out.
This pro-Israeli POV pushing reached its zenith of inmorality a few weeks ago during a campaign to remove the picture of a Lebanese girl who had been killed by the Qana airstrike from the article. It seems they succeeded, no doubt through persistence rather than valid arguments.
-- Burgas00 19:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Hezbollah sinks Australia warship 203.166.247.248 16:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Who knows where the Chebaa Farms area is? Now, how the hell Zar'it and Shtula got into Chebaa Farms area?? Flayer 20:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 |
How come Israeli civilian casualties do not have a "range" and Lebanese do? So you accept the word of the Israeli government but not the Lebanese?
Blatant BIAS—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rm uk ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The international press agrees on the number of Israelis, while there is a wide range reported for the Lebanese (which doesn't even touch on the issue of distinguishing civilians), which is where the 1009 number came from. Tewfik Talk 02:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't seen the source, and you haven't provided a link. Be mindful of WP:Point. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't concerned with truth, only with verifiability. The Israeli numbers can be verified and are agreed on by the international media, and the Lebanese numbers are not, but rather there are several different numbers (hence the range). The fact that the official Israeli count concurs with the verifiable number doesn't make it less verifiable. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 15:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Another reason for the lack of accuracy in Lebanese figures is that two Lebanese government branches were reporting different counts -- ~700 and ~1000. ehudshapira 00:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not have time to check and re-check again, my israeli sources told me over 120 soldiers dead and 55 civilians, at least 5 commandos, today on the raid at least one soldier dead, this time no hezbolla, except 3 wounded, if somebody has more evidence check on the accuracy on casualties on boths sides. Remember, the first casualty in war is truth.
Right now the infobox says 954 but the ref doesn't agree. It says more than 900 Lebanese (and 159 Israeli, which would suggest the Lebanese figure is also including non-civilians). ehudshapira 00:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Conclusions, Environmental consequences, Israeli Airstirke in Eastern Lebanon: Hezbollah Stronghold, News, Iran is listed as an Arab country, Seymour Hersh allegation, Temporal Scope of Article, 10 rockets fired in Southern Lebanon, Israel breaks cease fire, New yorker, Disputed casualty figures?, United Nations force, Israel, Malaysia and Indonesia, "Results of the conflict", New beginning: Lebanon Raid
Hizballa's pretexts:
Israel, unlike its enemies, does distinguish between the two terms when it comes to facts. In Israeli press, Ron Arad is described as indeed POW ("captured"), and Mustafa Dirani as "abducted" by Israel in order to retrieve information on Arad (Dirani released in 2000 deal). But the soldiers in 2006 were clearly "abducted". Thus, the soldiers are abducted, and not "captured". Taken for future human ransom, taken to blackmail Israel, despite the fact that Kuntar's non-releasing was due to Nasrallah's, not Israel's, behaviour regarding the previous abduction treaty. This is fact, and not a point of view. The phrase that is "point of view", is "captured". Aleverde 21:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
While the proper term is certainly a matter of debate, that they were taken for ransom is stated by the Hezbollah, so while it may not be a good stylistic alternative, it is accurate and neutral. Tewfik Talk 17:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wait, who's release? Do we have an article for the previous treaty? -- Kendrick7 20:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
.
Tewfik
Talk
20:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
How would people feel about using "seized" as an alternative to "captured", "kidnapped" or "abducted"? -- ChrisO 19:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to "seize". If anyone wants to open another vote, let him/her do it, because I don't know how to do this (a bit new on Wikipedia). I've already done this before but it was erased of course. It's also not clear from the previous vote what term was to be used. And see FACTS first (at the top of the section) that clearly indicate that this was not an ordinary military capturing of counterpart's soldiers. -- Aleverde 12:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I read an article that the captured/abducted soldiers were actually in Lebanon/Gaza - true/not true? Sheeba Farms - when did it become Israel's? Syria and Lebanon have both claimed it at times - Israel has a UN resolution #? that says to leave - whose ever it is it isn't Israel's it seems. PS The Golan Heights article doesn't mention Sheeba Farms or the Litani River - if you want consistency then you had better edit that article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 ( talk • contribs).
The cease-fire has just been violated, where do we put that. Do we put this in the Resolution article, or in the conflict article -- Deenoe 14:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
There should be a section dedicated to the violation of the ceasefire. There is no doubt that it is a violation since there were no conditions attached to resolution 1701 for stopping hostilities related to "arms smuggling" or whatever else Israel claims.
Can someone please write the new section?
-- Burgas00 14:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hum should Violations of current cease-fire should be under Cease fire Attempts, or a new section.. cause it's not really an attempt.. Cease fire has been achieved and then violated. -- Deenoe 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
To make this topic more NPOV, I suggest we change its name from "Violations of current ceasefire" to "Post-ceasefire violence." If nobody disagrees in 24 hours, I'm going to do it. -- GHcool 15:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The u.n ceasefire resolution clearly calls on disarming hezbullah. Days after the cease fire took effect however the lebanese government and hezbullah agreed that the group would not be disarmed. simple as that. Isn't that a clear violation of the ceasefire? shouldn't that be mentioned above everything else despite the lack of violence? (BKAP23)
Could someone able to access the
Economist's article on the outcome provide a copy of the relevant passages, as the title, "Hizbullah's shallow victory," seems to suggest that they aren't characterising the outcome as a "military and political victory," though of course not having read the article, I could be wrong
. Cheers,
Tewfik
Talk
06:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
An israeli image saying israel won should be on this article. If not the hezbollah one should be deleted. -- Zonerocks 06:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I read The Economist secularly :) since age 10, and seldom are they wrong in this type of stuff. I know its a tought pill to swallow, but never forget the not irrelevant role The Economist played in British support for Zionism before you pull an Aleverde and start accusing everyone of being an anti-semite. The fact is that Olmert set hilariously impossible standards (destruction of Hezbollah) which are objectively impossible to meet. Hence Nasrallah, who is everything but stupid, is capitalizing on this. As I said, the IDF is but a shadow of its six-day war self, and this shows.-- Cerejota 20:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The Economist is wrong about who won the conflict militarily . Hezbollah suffered at least 5 times the casualties Israel suffered despite fighting on the defensive from state of the art fortifications..When Hezbollah engaged in firefights they were usually wiped out. Hezbollah only survived because they wore no uniforms and surrounded themselves with civilians and used the media especially the very biased British media to broadcast their propaganda.How can anyone rely on one article after all the fabrications that were exposed during this war. I heard a podcast of two recognized, objective military experts : Jim Dunnigan and Austin Bay who felt the IDF was effective and it would only be a matter of time for Israel to totally eradicate Hizballoh. The IDF ,to minimize casaulties needed another six weeks to totally eradicate Hezbollah.It was due to political considerations that Hizbollah survived. If outside parties did not intervene Hezbollah would not exist as fighting force today.A comparison with the battle of Iwo Jima is accurate. Although, the Japanese managed to hold out much longer than expected and inflicted more casaulties than expected ,it was only a matter of time before they were totally destroyed. Israel decided it wasn't worth antagonizing their closest ally (USA) to finish off Hezbollah. Jim Dunnigan was the only military pundit who correctly predicted US battlefield deaths in first Gulf War as 100-200 rather than the 30,000-40,000 predicted by almost everyone including the US military (which had 30,000 body bags available ) Cerejota :the Israeli casaulty rate in this conflict was 1/10 of that in 1967 war. Despite what biased media report ,Hezbollah was the loser by any accepted definition of military victory User: Jaywhite06 September 2,2006.
First of all, its been a great 5 weeks so far on this page, but now that we've finally come off the Main Page, I'd like to suggest some focus on cleaning up the 40 sub (and subsub[!]) articles. I personally think that aside from lots of basic cleanup, many of them may be due for merging, as much of the detail seems to be either redundant to other pages, to consist of irrelevant minutiae, or both. And in all honesty, without minimising the human loss of this event, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near the scale of a conflict requiring this much documentation. Of course, that is just my opinion, and I'd like to hear everyone else's take on the problems and how we might go about fixing them. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In any conflict there are only two sides (irrespective of the nations/factions/groups or any other factors within one side like in the world war). The warbox in this article shows there are three sides. See "Wars are usually a series of military campaigns between two opposing sides involving a dispute" as per the War article. Lebanon and Hezbollah were on one side with Israel on the other, so instead of trying to show the war as some kind of three way fight (this isn't the final standoff of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly).
So I propose that Hezbollah and Lebanon section of strength, casualty and other information be shown in italics to differentiate or to draw a subbox within the box to group the two so as to show an uninformed user that these two were basically on one side and Israel on the other. I'm ready for any other suggestions. simply grouping lebanon and hezbollah's stats in one section will not be reader friendly but three sides of a conflict isn't correct as it is. -- Idleguy 13:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I support a hezbollah-Israel box only too.-- TheFEARgod 11:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is written in biassed way "The conflict began when a Hezbollah unit conducted a cross-border raid, capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three. Israel responded with massive air strikes " This suggests that Hezbollah is the aggressor and the conflict is new. The conflict started June 6, 1982. This conflict should be renamed to 2006 escalation of Israel-Lebanon conflict."Israel began to withdraw some of its forces from the country. A full withdrawal is not expected until the enlarged UNIFIL force has arrived." This would be predicting the future and should be removed.
"Time line of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict" Time lines should be removed. There have been bombardment across the boarder by both sides and taking of prisoners or kidnapping civilians before July 12 2006 also Israel has occupied Part of Lebanon for over 24 years. The time line makes this article biased in representing this conflict. -- Mtjs0 18:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest changing this -"The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is a military conflict in Lebanon and northern Israel, primarily between Hezbollah and Israel, which started on 12 July 2006. A United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on 14 August 2006. Since then, fighting has largely ceased.
The conflict began when a Hezbollah unit conducted a cross-border raid, capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three. Israel responded with massive airstrikes across much of Lebanon, a ground invasion of southern Lebanon, and an air and naval blockade, while Hezbollah launched thousands of rockets into northern Israel and engaged the Israeli Army on the ground by guerrilla warfare.
The conflict has killed over a thousand people, mostly Lebanese civilians, damaged infrastructure, displaced more than a million Lebanese and 500,000 Israelis, and disrupted normal life across all of Lebanon and northern Israel. Attacks by both sides on civilian population centers and infrastructure have drawn sharp criticism internationally.
On 11 August, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, in an effort to end the hostilities. On 12 August, the Lebanese government and Hezbollah approved the resolution, and on 13 August the Israeli government did the same.
On 17 August, the Lebanese army began deploying its forces in southern Lebanon as part of the agreement, and Israel began to withdraw some of its forces from the country. A full withdrawal is not expected until the enlarged UNIFIL force has arrived."
->"The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict refers to hostilities in southern Lebanon and northern Israel, primarily between Hezbollah and Israel, which escalated on 13 July 2006 to a broad conflict. A United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on 14 August 2006. Since then, fighting has mostly ceased.
On 11 August, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, in an effort to end the hostilities. On 12 August, the Lebanese government and Hezbollah approved the resolution, and on 13 August the Israeli government did the same."
If there is a rundown list of event it should be written in neutral manner and without causal connections
"The events before escalation of the conflict include on 12 July 2006 Hezbollah unit capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing three." "13 July 2006 Israel airstrikes Lebanon" -- Mtjs0 09:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this would be a better line: The escalated conflict began in earnest when Israel launched a large scale military campaign in response to a border incident with Hezbollah in which two Israeli soldiers were captured and three were killed.
Dimensional dan
14:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
it appears that the Hezbollah currently gains enormous popular support by their professional rebuilding campaign. They also seem to know their PR, with multilingual announcements of "divine victory". It appears that the slogan is a play on the name of Nasrallah -- could somebody elucidate this aspect? The article seems to be concentrating on the military confrontation, but it seems evident that Hezbollah's dealing with the aftermath of the attack is much more decisive in turning the whole affair to their advantage. dab (ᛏ) 11:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
In reading through the infobox it creates an interesting problem, the number given for civilian deaths if I am understanding it right, is the number given by Lebanon for total deaths, not specifying civilian or not. Is this true? Perhaps a range should be used for this location excluding confirmed militants and IDF militant death numbers. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 14:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I have manupilated the data so it looks nicer (content (nubers etc) has not been changed). I furthermore added redundent commets to make the illegable comment readable. Furthermore, I recommend the citation to be moved outside of the infobox. -- Cat out 17:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone has removed the amnesty report that Israel committed war-crimes http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lbn-230806-feature-eng. I think it is fair to include this. ( 158.143.133.54 17:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC))
It is not removed, it is footnote #73. No need to worry
--
Avi
18:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
As somebody mentioned yesterday, too many links are removed, there were war crimes in Lebanon and much more, it's important those links stay there, now, attack on hezbollah is ok, on civilians, never.
Hezbollah ONLY attacked civilians. 250 rockets per day on civilian cities. With rockets that are so inaccurate that they are unable to be used against a military. That should be mentioned in the first paragraph of any such description.
Clearly allegations of war crimes merits its own section. I've started one very tentatively. If others agree I'll make the rearrangements Trachys 15:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I put the number of Hezbollah fighters as 600-1000 according to the ISS report. But the figure seems to me to be a bit on the low side. If anybody has more accurate figures, please feel free to replace mine. Abu ali 09:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Tewfik: Besides other unexplainable edits you have made of this section, please explain why you constantly erase part of the sentence referring to article 8 of the UN resolution. -- Burgas00 14:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
As it is totally out of context, and placed there merely to neutralise the Hezbollah statement that they do not intend to disarm, it is not NPOV. The resolution doesn't just call for Israel to leave, and the preceding statement has nothing to do with Israel leaving. If there are other "unexplainable edits," feel free to request explanation. Also, the violations are "alleged" until you can provide a source the definitively says they aren't - we aren't here to rule on international law. Tewfik Talk 16:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Resolution 1701, Article 8:
“8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution based on the following principles and elements:
-- full respect for the Blue Line by both parties;
-- security arrangements to prevent the resumption of hostilities, including the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11, deployed in this area;
-- full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of 27 July 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese State;
-- no foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its Government;
-- no sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its Government;
-- provision to the United Nations of all remaining maps of land mines in Lebanon in Israel’s possession;
Mentioning the contents of article 8 are very relevant considering Israel is also in violation of this article (it does not have Lebanese consent for invading Lebanon). What is NPOV is attempting to hide this fact and attempting to give a sense of legality to the israeli violation of the ceasefire.
There is a clear bias in this section which you are spearheading. Some of the edits are actually quite juvenile, like claiming that it was the spokesman of Kofi Annan and not the Secretary General himself who stated that the Israelis were violating the ceasefire.
Considering that Israel (and to a much lesser extent, Hizbollah) has continued hostilities after the cease fire which called for: (article 1) “ a full cessation of hostilities based upon, in particular, the immediate cessation by Hizbollah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations;"
Considering Kofi Annan's statements that Israel was in violation of a security council resolution in bombing hizbollah positions,
The inclusion of the word "alleged" is tendentious and biased as well as baseless.
-- Burgas00 18:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Rangely, it seems to me that it is you who is missing the point. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral and to include rather than exclude information. There is nothing wrong in pointing out that neither hizbollah nor Israel have yet fulfilled all of the aims of resolution 1701 and particularly article 8:
Mark Regev claiming that it is in accordance with resolution 1701 to continue bombing Lebanon because of alleged arms transfers from Syria is equivalent to Hizbollah attacking Israel while claiming it is not violating the ceasefire because Israeli troops are still present in Lebanese soil.
There is clearly a bias in this article mantained by editors who want to argue for the legality of all of Israel's actions and the illegality of those of Hizbollah. It is this bias which is unwelcome on wikipedia, not me pointing it out.
This pro-Israeli POV pushing reached its zenith of inmorality a few weeks ago during a campaign to remove the picture of a Lebanese girl who had been killed by the Qana airstrike from the article. It seems they succeeded, no doubt through persistence rather than valid arguments.
-- Burgas00 19:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Hezbollah sinks Australia warship 203.166.247.248 16:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Who knows where the Chebaa Farms area is? Now, how the hell Zar'it and Shtula got into Chebaa Farms area?? Flayer 20:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)