This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
This page is for the discussion of Point of View issues in the article.
I've added a POV template at the top, but this was quickly reverted by Ryulong. I added it again now. It is fairly obvious that people on both sides have issues with the content. If anyone thinks it should not be there, please state the reasons here. ehudshapira 00:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
About the demo section, either show demos for both sides or none. ehudshapira 01:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, an image shows a state of things - and the fact is, there is more damage, and thus more to show, in Lebanon. Is it our fault there are no pictures of dead children in Israel? No, and showing pictures of dead children is not biased - sure, if the article was peppered with them, then yes. But one image is not. I think you are confusing WP:NPOV with some sort of 50:50 balance. This is clearly not the case in a conflict which is primarily (for good or bad) on one side. This applies to the demonstration - only one image is needed, and thus the image that shows the most is chosen. As for your other points;
The POV template should remain at the top of the page at the very least till the end of the conflict and removing it should be considered to be Vandalism-- Comrade Wolf 14:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Rubbish. The template should only stay there when someone is raising a specific issue about the POV of the article. Once those POV concerns have been dismissed or addressed, it gets removed. -- Iorek85 22:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the article is getting imbalanced so often it's best to keep it until things settle. And after a short reading, again I have an issue. See " Initial shelling & more" subsection here. ehudshapira 23:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It's about time to call it a war!who are we kidding!
THE ARTICLE IS ONE SIDED I tried many times to balance this article, but it was always reverted (vandalism my ass)! For my comments on the anti-air gun! it was due the fact that it stated that it was "a rcoket launcher used from civilians buildings!" isn't that vandalism! I appreciate that you corrected that! And about the 400 dead from hezbollah! this is pure propaganda! I know for a fact that till now its only 43! and I think we should use the terms war crimes toward the acts of israel! israel due to its military incompetence has killed over 900 civilians!!! Israel is unable to do anything to hezbollah (i'm only stating waht i'm seeing till now) all the news that israeli are getting is full of propaganda! hezbollah has minor minor casualties (till now)!
The LEAFLETS that were dropped on southern Lebanon: I don't think we should keep these unless we state alongside that the leaflets were dropped after all exit roads were cutoff by israeli airraids! I know that because I have nmany friends from there and plus the ones that find a way out on foot get targeted (children!!!that were getting out as these leaflets stated were targeted! this was the case for a village that still had exit roads)! So tell me what's the purpose of these leaflets! they are only an excuse to show to the international community! this is pure hypocratie!
ISRAEL-HIZBULLA WAR
Even the title is POV here. Lebanon and Israel weren't at war. Neither declared war against the other. Israel was at war with Hizbullah only. The name should be changed. What happened to the "Move" button? -- 12.74.187.195 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Editor Avi posted this message in my talk page and I replied that I only reply article related stuff in this talk page.-- Cerejota 07:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm curious, you removed the IDF image from the 2006 conflict article with an edit summary of POV propaganda. Can you please elaborate? It was a picture of the leaflet that is described in the text at that point, I don't understand your edit. Thanks. -- Avi 06:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
(This is copied from the main talk, and I've brought it here. Iorek85) I've browsed the archives and I cannot come up with a valid reason to remove the image. It is an image of what is referred to in the text. It is also WP:RS. Is there a WP:RS for Hezbollah dropping leaflets in Haifa? If there is, bring it. If only one side warns and only one side has leaflets, it is not a POV issue to show that. Even if both sides were to have, the proper methodology is to bring both, not delete one. -- Avi 07:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have consistently opposed the use of propaganda from either side unless we make a page for it. The reason is simple: it doesn't provide any additional relevant information that furthers article quality, but instead serves to needlessly inflame the passions of those who do not share a pro-Israeli POV. It is just flame bait, and those who continue to push for its inclusion should probably re-consider if the inclussion of such infalamtory speech is productive and positive to acheieving a good article, or is it rather just a needless provocation.-- Cerejota 07:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As we all knew US and UK are against Hizbollah.(for more information, refer to the US actions in UN against the ceasefire), and Israel is itself in war with Hizbollah. US has listed Hizbollah az a terrorist organization. But, as someone can count, most of the news sources are from Haartez(Israel), US(Yahoo, CNN), UK(BBC). Is it fair? As far as I see, some news sources like Yahoo, is obviously against Hizbollah, for example between all Nasrollah's words in his last speaking, Yahoo has selected "We didn't expect such reaction from Israel", but he always said that "Israel was preparing itself for a real war, and they only started the war sooner". These are totally different. -- Hossein.ir 14:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hossein, as a german (and thus westerner) I see it the same way as you do. The article is heavily POV, because the vast majority of sources that have been taken into account, used as reference and quoted from, are western media stations. There is no balance of sources at all. The most important sources should come from the Middle East, where the conflict takes place, and not from media that origins in countries such as the UK and the United States of America. If Wikipedia cannot stick to its values of global understanding I fear it loses its face because of heavily relying on western media information, which is not guaranteed to be unbiased. Its spirit of Western societies feeling superior comes to the point here, which originates in the period of colonialism. In the 21st century we should have learned from faults and respect the world as it is, focusing on equality and justice and to me there is no justice in only taking western media information and leaving Libanese/Israeli/Arab sources out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.58.59.225 ( talk • contribs).
The description of the beginning is constantly getting undone. There wasn't only a capture of two soldiers, but also shelling into Israel, killing of 3, and wounding others. See UN report S/2006/560. This is a base detail. I believe also civilians were hurt at this stage, but I'll have to look for these articles again. ehudshapira 23:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
2 things that make this article POV:
1) pictures do not show the war as it is, but instead try to make it "clean" by not showing any injured/dead bodys in close shots. If people say it would be POV to include pictures of children being harmed, then I can only say: Children are humans as well, no matter how much they provoke. Making a war nice by showing no emotional pictures causes the perception of wars in general to be "not soo bad", which I think is dangerous.
2) Western media sources are heavily referenced and there is no fair enough balance of western media and Arab/Middle East media. Please note that quality does not come along with popularity that often, thus major news media stations cannot be trusted on without clarifying and testing all of their statements on truth; examples are CNN, CBS, Reuters, AP. These are heavily overrated in their reliability along with other big media corporations from the western world. Wikipedia is aiming at people of the whole world, not just those that live in Europe, Canada or the United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).
The article is starting to get a mess. the battlebox and the beggining of the article is a holy crap. Someone is using the semi protection in the aricle to fix the article as his/her POV. Sad, very sad. Try to look only at the battlebox is a real mess.
"alleged" in front of cross border raid keeps on getting reverted even though it is clearly disputed. It's hard to tell who is doing the deleting because the reverter is not documenting it. It looks like editor Tewfik. If I'm wrong, then my apologies. under the circumstances an NPOV warning is in order. Best Wishes. Will314159 17:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Reference [37] in main article (Michael Béhé) The New Republic appears not to be impartial when it comes to the war, as evidenced by their other [ [2][articles]] -- User:thewatercarrier 16:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I see too many references based on the information given to us by western mainstream media, which I think is POV because there is no balance of western media and media stations that root in Israel/Libanon. This is not to say that western media is not objective enough or not detailled enough, it's just what I primarily noticed about the references. Even if media in Libanon and Israel are less funded and don't have the resources big media corporations from industry nations have, they should be heard for the sake of equality and justice. (That western media can fake things has been shown in the Kosovo war, which was heavily bloated by poor western media that claimed to know much more than they really knew about)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.58.59.225 ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 21:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
We've talked about the Canadian article, and if you review your comments, you see that even yourself had agreed that it's useless for reasoning. And if you think, US, Israel, Canada, and Australia, and I add UK, are the supporters of great Israel. They're western anglo sacson countries. Someone may think the world is confined into this countries, but I would not agree with him. :-) Btw, some of them are rare news sources that seems to be weblog, that can be found only by googling for a long time. I can qutoe from Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Syria, so many countries from Latin America, including Cuba.
As you're an administrator, I do not revert the edit, but everybody with a NPOV can see what's happening here.
And about Iran, It's my country, and I consider your comment a "Personal Attack". For sure I will add some links from Iran and Al-jazeera.
-- Hossein.ir 21:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 21:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As a "westerner" - as much as I hate it, because I am just a human being as everbody else on Earth - I feel ashamed seeing all these quotations from so called experts. I hope to have made myself clear in the comment under the heading and that Wikipedia does not lose its balance and neutrality because this is in danger here when quoting only from western media information. If we all want to get near to the truth, we need to inform ourselves from many different media sources, and as everybody know: Mainstream media is often sticking to the philosophy of serving the masses and what they want to read and see, not to the truth. Wikipedia needs to set a sign here for a neutral report on this conflict. And this can, in my opinion, only be done by first of all taking a look at all those quotations that are scattered the whole article and all those references that seem to go into the hundreds. Let's get all heads free of western media, let's take all a look at alternative media (which is in fact the other objection I have against the neutrality of the article, not only the regional fact of majorly western media coverage but also the fact of mostly including sources from big media corporations and no alternative smaller ones, that often do much more research and truth-proven coverage) and the media coming from Arabia and the Middle East and see if we can include it in a way that we have a balance of information source.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.58.59.225 ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Theron. If we have a reliable, verifiable source for the alternative POV, by all means add it. -- Avi 21:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 21:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
About administration, I was not talking about you. It was Avraham. As this discussion is lasting too long, I've encountered many editing conflicts, and I'm writing my opinions not exactly below the last talk. I'm sorry for this. But I do not agree with you when saying "directing missile fire at innocent Israeli citizens". Nasrallah obviously said that this is reaction to Israel's actions that caused killing of about 1000 innocent people, including UN members. They're defending inside their conuntry, and their defence is considered legal by Lebanon. I ask you. Do you want Israel to consider it legal? What about Israel's main supporter, US, that gives about 3 billion dollar a a year to it? I think it's obvious. And about Iran's governemnt, they state that their support is diplomatic, and political, not more that this. And most of people in muslim world are against Israel, it's an obvious decision.
I'm sorry if my discussions disturbed you, because
See this [ [3], and you'll have fun! I tried to fix a section, but what I can see, is the removal of this paragraph only. The interesting part is that someone who removes most of my edits, and previous edits that are somehow a little against Israel actions, was so in a hurry that he was fixing his grammatical and spelling mistakes for a long time!(I don't claim that I don't have typos, but I'm not a native English speaker. Look at the removed paragraph:
But according to Senior Emergencies Researcher for Human Rights Watch,Peter Bouckaert "In Lebanon, Time after time, Israel has hit civilian homes and cars in the southern border zone, killing dozens of people with no evidence of any military objective." [4]
Btw, this picture is obviously propaganda, and the funny thing is that IT WAS used to defend Israel's attacks. And at last, international laws say that even if there are civillians mixed with soldiers, it is against the rules to kill both of them. I can not understand why some people want to talk about so called "Human shield"?
-- Hossein.ir 22:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
“ | Article 28:The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
Article 29:The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred. |
” |
-- Hossein.ir 23:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Please see propaganda article's pictures, and compare it with the above picture, and talk about what you think. Thanks. -- Hossein.ir 22:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. At least you're hearing me, that is considered a good step :-) Everyone thinks he/she is right. Me and you are just one of them. And I say let's talk to find out more.
I would like to hear comments from you. :-) At least we can exchange ideas hear while THEY're editing the article in their own way, hearing no comments. :-( Googling+Pasting text+pasting URLs. Is it article making? -- Hossein.ir 23:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, But it seems you didn't understand my idea. What you google is "Hizbollah Human shield" and you get so many results. You make flood from the links, and make article bloated. But you're not aware of the whole thing, and opposite opinions. -- Hossein.ir 23:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Terrorism is a word used mainly in propaganda for showing enemy apart from humanity, and ready for brutal killing? This is the truth. Please read your words again, by the word terror, you take away a lot of their rights from them. They're ordinary people, that after Lebanon's occupation tried to free their land. I can't understand why do you call them terrorist?
And one more thing, tell me is Israel itself legal? How do you find a reason for that? Isn't it made by terror, displacing and assasination? Tell me it's not made this way, and I believe all your words. -- Hossein.ir 23:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I should tell you that in this GREAT world, only US and 2 or 3 countries consider them terrorist. Haven't you heard that Bush said: "Every nation should defend herself"? What do you say about this? Why are they trying to change people's opinon, if they're right? From the article Megaphone_desktop_tool
The Megaphone desktop tool is a toolbar for Microsoft Windows, usable with Internet Explorer or Firefox. The program is distributed by the World Union of Jewish Students and other pro-Israel organizations.
Released on July 19, 2006, little is yet known about the details of what this toolbar actually does.
Also read this [ Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiersIsrael backed by army of cyber-soldiers]. What's happening? I can't conclude anything. Could you please help me understand this?
And the last thing about "freedom". Say a word about "Holocaus" and I'll see your freedom. :-) Here we have freedom+morality, and we love it. 98% of this country's people vowted for this Islamic republic.
I belive this is wrong: "terrorize innocent civilians, invade sovereign". See the statistic of the war and you'll find out what's happening.
I'm not defending suicide bombers, but as far as I know, the same methods were used against Nazi germans who had occupied France. If you torture someone's family to death, you can expect anything from him/her. So, don't occupy his land, don't torture him, don't kill his family, little children and people, and everything goes well. -- Hossein.ir 23:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 00:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 00:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You're depending on the mainstream media too much. Anyone knows that United States of America, you're country, have always voted against UN resolutions that are against Israel. I don't know the exact number of them, but I think it's more than 50s. In 2006 Israel-Lebanon war, it voted against one resolution that wanted ceasefire in Lebanon. What do you call this? Why do US use its right for supporting Israel, no matter what it does? huh? We should talk about this in the main article, people who want the article pro-Israel one let. I want a NPOV article, although I think that this is not the exact truth. I want the article to conform to wikipedia rules, and I think right now it does not.
And about my country, please tell me how could you know that it was not 98%? I havent' heard even once that it was not 98%. Some people say that it's not 98% now.... Btw, you make me think of dogma. No matter what I say, you give me your words. For sure wikipedia is hosted in US, but it should contain other people's views, and I say to you that your opinions are only acceptable in US, UK and Israel.
If you don't consider this material related to the article, why do you start talking about them? You're talking my country, freedom, status of freedom in US and Iran. Why? Look above, and talk about the article.
-- Hossein.ir 00:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 01:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW, I've seen your page, and it was nice. Btw, although I care about foreigner's opinions about my country(I'm talking about one of your user boxes), I'm really against US support for terrorist organizations that kill people in Iran. Have you heared of Munafeghs? They've a long history of killing innocent people in Iran, and they've been funded from US and UK, and they still live and organize their work there. This year, their budget seems to be about 11 million dollars(publicly announced). Rice said this budget will be spent on making Iran a democrat country. Anything that will be done in this country, should be done with its people's vote, not by US bombs, the way they do in Iraq.
Also, we're not talking about opposing US or Israel, what I'm talking about is "Hezbollah doesn't use its familis as human shield", and I can see that a none-sense report from canada.com is there to justify the fact. These are OBVIOUS facts that is ingnored with "terrorists" vs "civilized nations" arguments is "about 1000 civilians killed in Lebanon, and 3500 were injured, with US made rockets, in the hands of Israeles that with preknowlege use them against people". And in Israel, "39 people were killed, and 93 were injured(if we ignore the funny statement, lightly injured or treated for shock). It's too obvious, and doesn't need a human right expert to conclude. I am not labling a nation with "terrorism", as you do. Many people and nations call Israel the "main source for organized govermental terrorism", but I don't care about this NOW. What I say is "Please see what happend in Qana, see the statistics, and conclude". That's enought for me right now. I'm going to sleep... Last words for you: capturing soldiers is not terrorism, but killing people is. For now, bye. :-)
-- Hossein.ir 01:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 01:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. It seems that they've recently added to the list of terrorist organizations; and this mean they can not have funds that are publicly announced. I never make a user page, because there are some vandals out there. and I don't care about reverting my page. I'm sorry, you could even have a chance to do vandalism on my page(I'm not claiming you wanted to do this, it's only a reasonable conclusion). -- Hossein.ir 01:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I've forgotten one thing; as I'm going to sleep, continue to your personal attacks on me, becuase in that way I will be sure that I didn't make you sick, by giving you the facts you want to avoid.
-- Hossein.ir 02:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget to vote for Israel in CNN's survey. Bye...! :-)) -- Hossein.ir 02:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 02:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I am curious. I would like to see a list of countries, comprising at least 20% of the world's population, that classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Better yet, 30%. 130.94.161.238 10:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"He further outlined his organization's strategy of terrorizing Israeli civilians into leaving their country: "We will expand attacks," he said: "The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave." [85]"
This is AT MOST as terrorist as IDF dropping leaflets telling people to leave their homes or else risk being killed. I think that the part about "terrorizing" should be omitted if we want to keep it NPOV Epsilonsa 19:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
This page is for the discussion of Point of View issues in the article.
I've added a POV template at the top, but this was quickly reverted by Ryulong. I added it again now. It is fairly obvious that people on both sides have issues with the content. If anyone thinks it should not be there, please state the reasons here. ehudshapira 00:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
About the demo section, either show demos for both sides or none. ehudshapira 01:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, an image shows a state of things - and the fact is, there is more damage, and thus more to show, in Lebanon. Is it our fault there are no pictures of dead children in Israel? No, and showing pictures of dead children is not biased - sure, if the article was peppered with them, then yes. But one image is not. I think you are confusing WP:NPOV with some sort of 50:50 balance. This is clearly not the case in a conflict which is primarily (for good or bad) on one side. This applies to the demonstration - only one image is needed, and thus the image that shows the most is chosen. As for your other points;
The POV template should remain at the top of the page at the very least till the end of the conflict and removing it should be considered to be Vandalism-- Comrade Wolf 14:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Rubbish. The template should only stay there when someone is raising a specific issue about the POV of the article. Once those POV concerns have been dismissed or addressed, it gets removed. -- Iorek85 22:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the article is getting imbalanced so often it's best to keep it until things settle. And after a short reading, again I have an issue. See " Initial shelling & more" subsection here. ehudshapira 23:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It's about time to call it a war!who are we kidding!
THE ARTICLE IS ONE SIDED I tried many times to balance this article, but it was always reverted (vandalism my ass)! For my comments on the anti-air gun! it was due the fact that it stated that it was "a rcoket launcher used from civilians buildings!" isn't that vandalism! I appreciate that you corrected that! And about the 400 dead from hezbollah! this is pure propaganda! I know for a fact that till now its only 43! and I think we should use the terms war crimes toward the acts of israel! israel due to its military incompetence has killed over 900 civilians!!! Israel is unable to do anything to hezbollah (i'm only stating waht i'm seeing till now) all the news that israeli are getting is full of propaganda! hezbollah has minor minor casualties (till now)!
The LEAFLETS that were dropped on southern Lebanon: I don't think we should keep these unless we state alongside that the leaflets were dropped after all exit roads were cutoff by israeli airraids! I know that because I have nmany friends from there and plus the ones that find a way out on foot get targeted (children!!!that were getting out as these leaflets stated were targeted! this was the case for a village that still had exit roads)! So tell me what's the purpose of these leaflets! they are only an excuse to show to the international community! this is pure hypocratie!
ISRAEL-HIZBULLA WAR
Even the title is POV here. Lebanon and Israel weren't at war. Neither declared war against the other. Israel was at war with Hizbullah only. The name should be changed. What happened to the "Move" button? -- 12.74.187.195 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Editor Avi posted this message in my talk page and I replied that I only reply article related stuff in this talk page.-- Cerejota 07:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm curious, you removed the IDF image from the 2006 conflict article with an edit summary of POV propaganda. Can you please elaborate? It was a picture of the leaflet that is described in the text at that point, I don't understand your edit. Thanks. -- Avi 06:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
(This is copied from the main talk, and I've brought it here. Iorek85) I've browsed the archives and I cannot come up with a valid reason to remove the image. It is an image of what is referred to in the text. It is also WP:RS. Is there a WP:RS for Hezbollah dropping leaflets in Haifa? If there is, bring it. If only one side warns and only one side has leaflets, it is not a POV issue to show that. Even if both sides were to have, the proper methodology is to bring both, not delete one. -- Avi 07:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have consistently opposed the use of propaganda from either side unless we make a page for it. The reason is simple: it doesn't provide any additional relevant information that furthers article quality, but instead serves to needlessly inflame the passions of those who do not share a pro-Israeli POV. It is just flame bait, and those who continue to push for its inclusion should probably re-consider if the inclussion of such infalamtory speech is productive and positive to acheieving a good article, or is it rather just a needless provocation.-- Cerejota 07:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As we all knew US and UK are against Hizbollah.(for more information, refer to the US actions in UN against the ceasefire), and Israel is itself in war with Hizbollah. US has listed Hizbollah az a terrorist organization. But, as someone can count, most of the news sources are from Haartez(Israel), US(Yahoo, CNN), UK(BBC). Is it fair? As far as I see, some news sources like Yahoo, is obviously against Hizbollah, for example between all Nasrollah's words in his last speaking, Yahoo has selected "We didn't expect such reaction from Israel", but he always said that "Israel was preparing itself for a real war, and they only started the war sooner". These are totally different. -- Hossein.ir 14:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hossein, as a german (and thus westerner) I see it the same way as you do. The article is heavily POV, because the vast majority of sources that have been taken into account, used as reference and quoted from, are western media stations. There is no balance of sources at all. The most important sources should come from the Middle East, where the conflict takes place, and not from media that origins in countries such as the UK and the United States of America. If Wikipedia cannot stick to its values of global understanding I fear it loses its face because of heavily relying on western media information, which is not guaranteed to be unbiased. Its spirit of Western societies feeling superior comes to the point here, which originates in the period of colonialism. In the 21st century we should have learned from faults and respect the world as it is, focusing on equality and justice and to me there is no justice in only taking western media information and leaving Libanese/Israeli/Arab sources out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.58.59.225 ( talk • contribs).
The description of the beginning is constantly getting undone. There wasn't only a capture of two soldiers, but also shelling into Israel, killing of 3, and wounding others. See UN report S/2006/560. This is a base detail. I believe also civilians were hurt at this stage, but I'll have to look for these articles again. ehudshapira 23:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
2 things that make this article POV:
1) pictures do not show the war as it is, but instead try to make it "clean" by not showing any injured/dead bodys in close shots. If people say it would be POV to include pictures of children being harmed, then I can only say: Children are humans as well, no matter how much they provoke. Making a war nice by showing no emotional pictures causes the perception of wars in general to be "not soo bad", which I think is dangerous.
2) Western media sources are heavily referenced and there is no fair enough balance of western media and Arab/Middle East media. Please note that quality does not come along with popularity that often, thus major news media stations cannot be trusted on without clarifying and testing all of their statements on truth; examples are CNN, CBS, Reuters, AP. These are heavily overrated in their reliability along with other big media corporations from the western world. Wikipedia is aiming at people of the whole world, not just those that live in Europe, Canada or the United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).
The article is starting to get a mess. the battlebox and the beggining of the article is a holy crap. Someone is using the semi protection in the aricle to fix the article as his/her POV. Sad, very sad. Try to look only at the battlebox is a real mess.
"alleged" in front of cross border raid keeps on getting reverted even though it is clearly disputed. It's hard to tell who is doing the deleting because the reverter is not documenting it. It looks like editor Tewfik. If I'm wrong, then my apologies. under the circumstances an NPOV warning is in order. Best Wishes. Will314159 17:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Reference [37] in main article (Michael Béhé) The New Republic appears not to be impartial when it comes to the war, as evidenced by their other [ [2][articles]] -- User:thewatercarrier 16:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I see too many references based on the information given to us by western mainstream media, which I think is POV because there is no balance of western media and media stations that root in Israel/Libanon. This is not to say that western media is not objective enough or not detailled enough, it's just what I primarily noticed about the references. Even if media in Libanon and Israel are less funded and don't have the resources big media corporations from industry nations have, they should be heard for the sake of equality and justice. (That western media can fake things has been shown in the Kosovo war, which was heavily bloated by poor western media that claimed to know much more than they really knew about)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.58.59.225 ( talk • contribs) 17:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 21:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
We've talked about the Canadian article, and if you review your comments, you see that even yourself had agreed that it's useless for reasoning. And if you think, US, Israel, Canada, and Australia, and I add UK, are the supporters of great Israel. They're western anglo sacson countries. Someone may think the world is confined into this countries, but I would not agree with him. :-) Btw, some of them are rare news sources that seems to be weblog, that can be found only by googling for a long time. I can qutoe from Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Syria, so many countries from Latin America, including Cuba.
As you're an administrator, I do not revert the edit, but everybody with a NPOV can see what's happening here.
And about Iran, It's my country, and I consider your comment a "Personal Attack". For sure I will add some links from Iran and Al-jazeera.
-- Hossein.ir 21:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 21:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As a "westerner" - as much as I hate it, because I am just a human being as everbody else on Earth - I feel ashamed seeing all these quotations from so called experts. I hope to have made myself clear in the comment under the heading and that Wikipedia does not lose its balance and neutrality because this is in danger here when quoting only from western media information. If we all want to get near to the truth, we need to inform ourselves from many different media sources, and as everybody know: Mainstream media is often sticking to the philosophy of serving the masses and what they want to read and see, not to the truth. Wikipedia needs to set a sign here for a neutral report on this conflict. And this can, in my opinion, only be done by first of all taking a look at all those quotations that are scattered the whole article and all those references that seem to go into the hundreds. Let's get all heads free of western media, let's take all a look at alternative media (which is in fact the other objection I have against the neutrality of the article, not only the regional fact of majorly western media coverage but also the fact of mostly including sources from big media corporations and no alternative smaller ones, that often do much more research and truth-proven coverage) and the media coming from Arabia and the Middle East and see if we can include it in a way that we have a balance of information source.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.58.59.225 ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Theron. If we have a reliable, verifiable source for the alternative POV, by all means add it. -- Avi 21:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 21:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
About administration, I was not talking about you. It was Avraham. As this discussion is lasting too long, I've encountered many editing conflicts, and I'm writing my opinions not exactly below the last talk. I'm sorry for this. But I do not agree with you when saying "directing missile fire at innocent Israeli citizens". Nasrallah obviously said that this is reaction to Israel's actions that caused killing of about 1000 innocent people, including UN members. They're defending inside their conuntry, and their defence is considered legal by Lebanon. I ask you. Do you want Israel to consider it legal? What about Israel's main supporter, US, that gives about 3 billion dollar a a year to it? I think it's obvious. And about Iran's governemnt, they state that their support is diplomatic, and political, not more that this. And most of people in muslim world are against Israel, it's an obvious decision.
I'm sorry if my discussions disturbed you, because
See this [ [3], and you'll have fun! I tried to fix a section, but what I can see, is the removal of this paragraph only. The interesting part is that someone who removes most of my edits, and previous edits that are somehow a little against Israel actions, was so in a hurry that he was fixing his grammatical and spelling mistakes for a long time!(I don't claim that I don't have typos, but I'm not a native English speaker. Look at the removed paragraph:
But according to Senior Emergencies Researcher for Human Rights Watch,Peter Bouckaert "In Lebanon, Time after time, Israel has hit civilian homes and cars in the southern border zone, killing dozens of people with no evidence of any military objective." [4]
Btw, this picture is obviously propaganda, and the funny thing is that IT WAS used to defend Israel's attacks. And at last, international laws say that even if there are civillians mixed with soldiers, it is against the rules to kill both of them. I can not understand why some people want to talk about so called "Human shield"?
-- Hossein.ir 22:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
“ | Article 28:The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
Article 29:The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred. |
” |
-- Hossein.ir 23:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Please see propaganda article's pictures, and compare it with the above picture, and talk about what you think. Thanks. -- Hossein.ir 22:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. At least you're hearing me, that is considered a good step :-) Everyone thinks he/she is right. Me and you are just one of them. And I say let's talk to find out more.
I would like to hear comments from you. :-) At least we can exchange ideas hear while THEY're editing the article in their own way, hearing no comments. :-( Googling+Pasting text+pasting URLs. Is it article making? -- Hossein.ir 23:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, But it seems you didn't understand my idea. What you google is "Hizbollah Human shield" and you get so many results. You make flood from the links, and make article bloated. But you're not aware of the whole thing, and opposite opinions. -- Hossein.ir 23:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Terrorism is a word used mainly in propaganda for showing enemy apart from humanity, and ready for brutal killing? This is the truth. Please read your words again, by the word terror, you take away a lot of their rights from them. They're ordinary people, that after Lebanon's occupation tried to free their land. I can't understand why do you call them terrorist?
And one more thing, tell me is Israel itself legal? How do you find a reason for that? Isn't it made by terror, displacing and assasination? Tell me it's not made this way, and I believe all your words. -- Hossein.ir 23:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I should tell you that in this GREAT world, only US and 2 or 3 countries consider them terrorist. Haven't you heard that Bush said: "Every nation should defend herself"? What do you say about this? Why are they trying to change people's opinon, if they're right? From the article Megaphone_desktop_tool
The Megaphone desktop tool is a toolbar for Microsoft Windows, usable with Internet Explorer or Firefox. The program is distributed by the World Union of Jewish Students and other pro-Israel organizations.
Released on July 19, 2006, little is yet known about the details of what this toolbar actually does.
Also read this [ Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiersIsrael backed by army of cyber-soldiers]. What's happening? I can't conclude anything. Could you please help me understand this?
And the last thing about "freedom". Say a word about "Holocaus" and I'll see your freedom. :-) Here we have freedom+morality, and we love it. 98% of this country's people vowted for this Islamic republic.
I belive this is wrong: "terrorize innocent civilians, invade sovereign". See the statistic of the war and you'll find out what's happening.
I'm not defending suicide bombers, but as far as I know, the same methods were used against Nazi germans who had occupied France. If you torture someone's family to death, you can expect anything from him/her. So, don't occupy his land, don't torture him, don't kill his family, little children and people, and everything goes well. -- Hossein.ir 23:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 00:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 00:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You're depending on the mainstream media too much. Anyone knows that United States of America, you're country, have always voted against UN resolutions that are against Israel. I don't know the exact number of them, but I think it's more than 50s. In 2006 Israel-Lebanon war, it voted against one resolution that wanted ceasefire in Lebanon. What do you call this? Why do US use its right for supporting Israel, no matter what it does? huh? We should talk about this in the main article, people who want the article pro-Israel one let. I want a NPOV article, although I think that this is not the exact truth. I want the article to conform to wikipedia rules, and I think right now it does not.
And about my country, please tell me how could you know that it was not 98%? I havent' heard even once that it was not 98%. Some people say that it's not 98% now.... Btw, you make me think of dogma. No matter what I say, you give me your words. For sure wikipedia is hosted in US, but it should contain other people's views, and I say to you that your opinions are only acceptable in US, UK and Israel.
If you don't consider this material related to the article, why do you start talking about them? You're talking my country, freedom, status of freedom in US and Iran. Why? Look above, and talk about the article.
-- Hossein.ir 00:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 01:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW, I've seen your page, and it was nice. Btw, although I care about foreigner's opinions about my country(I'm talking about one of your user boxes), I'm really against US support for terrorist organizations that kill people in Iran. Have you heared of Munafeghs? They've a long history of killing innocent people in Iran, and they've been funded from US and UK, and they still live and organize their work there. This year, their budget seems to be about 11 million dollars(publicly announced). Rice said this budget will be spent on making Iran a democrat country. Anything that will be done in this country, should be done with its people's vote, not by US bombs, the way they do in Iraq.
Also, we're not talking about opposing US or Israel, what I'm talking about is "Hezbollah doesn't use its familis as human shield", and I can see that a none-sense report from canada.com is there to justify the fact. These are OBVIOUS facts that is ingnored with "terrorists" vs "civilized nations" arguments is "about 1000 civilians killed in Lebanon, and 3500 were injured, with US made rockets, in the hands of Israeles that with preknowlege use them against people". And in Israel, "39 people were killed, and 93 were injured(if we ignore the funny statement, lightly injured or treated for shock). It's too obvious, and doesn't need a human right expert to conclude. I am not labling a nation with "terrorism", as you do. Many people and nations call Israel the "main source for organized govermental terrorism", but I don't care about this NOW. What I say is "Please see what happend in Qana, see the statistics, and conclude". That's enought for me right now. I'm going to sleep... Last words for you: capturing soldiers is not terrorism, but killing people is. For now, bye. :-)
-- Hossein.ir 01:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 01:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. It seems that they've recently added to the list of terrorist organizations; and this mean they can not have funds that are publicly announced. I never make a user page, because there are some vandals out there. and I don't care about reverting my page. I'm sorry, you could even have a chance to do vandalism on my page(I'm not claiming you wanted to do this, it's only a reasonable conclusion). -- Hossein.ir 01:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I've forgotten one thing; as I'm going to sleep, continue to your personal attacks on me, becuase in that way I will be sure that I didn't make you sick, by giving you the facts you want to avoid.
-- Hossein.ir 02:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget to vote for Israel in CNN's survey. Bye...! :-)) -- Hossein.ir 02:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 02:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I am curious. I would like to see a list of countries, comprising at least 20% of the world's population, that classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Better yet, 30%. 130.94.161.238 10:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"He further outlined his organization's strategy of terrorizing Israeli civilians into leaving their country: "We will expand attacks," he said: "The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave." [85]"
This is AT MOST as terrorist as IDF dropping leaflets telling people to leave their homes or else risk being killed. I think that the part about "terrorizing" should be omitted if we want to keep it NPOV Epsilonsa 19:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)