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I say "resulted in 2006 Lebanon war" because that is NPOV. Israel had NOT itself respected Lebanese sovereignty-so the Lebanese could claim harassing overflights as "acts of war". 70.190.102.49 ( talk) 02:19, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
The incident section in Ayta ash-Shab is redundant, as it was already included in this article. Fuzzy 22:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Rather not. The Ayta ash-Shab is actually a location stub and information about the location should be added. The other article describes in first row the event which started the conflict. -- 213.155.224.232 16:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Where did the information about injuring 5 civilians come from? The link [1] in "injuring 5 civilians[1]" does not work. It seems that other articles cited in the text do not mention it.
R.R.S. 7 August, 2006
from the figaro article
what is meant by "these kidnappings extend beyond our country's borders" is that they are influenced by Syria, Teheran, and events in Gaza. He is not offering an opinion whether it is a "cross-border" raid. Will314159 13:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
A MEMRI interpretation? Get Real. Best Wishes. Will314159 10:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You ask about "prisoners." I have tried investigating this issue online. So far, it appears that Israel has 3 or 4 Lebanese in custody. The Lebanese call them "detainees" and are particularly interested in getting one of them back. They describe him as being unfairly detained by Israel. But, if you look him up, he was arrested inside Israel, tried and convicted. He is in jail because he took a father and child down to the beach at gunpoint, shot dead the father, beat the child to death and killed two police officers before he was arrested.
There are actually many, many people in Israel's jails awaiting trial. Some of them are Lebanese. If I have more time later I'll come back with a source. --
Jonmedeiros
23:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This page should be also protected. Flayer 09:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why the you need Guards for propoganda. Yousaf465
Incident is disputed about the crossing of border by any side so pl check. Yousaf465
have you ever visited jewish virtual libaray then you may know how to convince Dozens of international "journalists" abut you point of view.HAHAHAHa funny guards o.k i will sent mine Two guards if you can't rely on yours.HAhAHAA Yousaf465
This article also claims to true in that a serving officer in PAF runs a website which prove IAF claims what a pity thing that PAF is they let a oficier do propoganda against his own country then how can you trust these sources. [1] i don't understand how then they run this PAF
If Yousaf465, or his friend's IP, shall violate the WP:3RR rule once again, I'll press an official complaint ( As it seems he doesn't understand clues). Fuzzy 22:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There is certainly a pov element in the text and editing. Personally i found that every historically interesting or relevant case bears these pov elements in wikipedia.
To give a simple example, what turns these forces of hezbollah into irregulars?? (so pov descriptions and depictions of hezbollah infiltrate already the first chapter.) Without going into more detail (although the landmine inssue can be concerned likewise, and the prisoner- ase for killing at he beeach, is obscuring and very possibly obscurant, what does it have to do here anyway??)
Back to irregulars, The idf ofcourse describes hezbollah as irregulars.. who else would do that?? In fact these were among the most organised , best guided units of hezbollah, very probably with a full time job or function in lebanon. So irregulars is a derogatory here. Ofcourse you can make the point that for israelians hezbollah is illegal. Well that is POV. Becus is it illegal for lebanese? no. so here s your answer .. good luck 'neatening up' this relevant contribution. 80.57.242.54 14:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Haaretz.com Any logical place to put this information ? imi2 08:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The source, Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border, does not say the incident started at 9:05. It says about 9:00. It also doesn't mention the villages of Even Menahem and Mattat. It doesn't mention any "Humvees" either. It says "The fighting began at about 9:00 A.M., when a group of reserve soldiers in two armored jeeps was conducting a routine patrol of the border. As the jeeps passed between Moshav Zarit and Moshav Shtula, Hezbollah attacked."
Here are some additional sources regarding the initial [diversionary?] rocket attacks on civilian locations in Israel by Hezbollah. I recall that there is a more detailed discussion buried in one of the page archives (perhaps around October 5-6), but I couldn't find it after searching for some time.
הדיווח על החטיפה הגיע זמן קצר לאחר מטח של קטיושות ופצצות מרגמה שירו אנשי החיזבאללה לעבר הצפון. מעט אחרי השעה 9:00 בבוקר החל החיזבאללה בירי מאסיבי של קטיושות, פצצות מרגמה ונשק קל לעבר מוצבים ויישובים בגבול הצפון ובהם: שתולה, נורית, זרעית, אבן מנחם, מתת ומרגליות. Translation: "The kidnaping was reported shortly after a barrage of katyushas and mortars fired by Hezbollah into northern Israel. A little after 9:00 am, the Hezbollah commenced massive fire of katyushas, mortars, and light weapons at [IDF] positions and towns on the northern border, among them: Shetula, Nurit, Zar'it, Even Menahem, Mattat, and Margaliot"
Cheers, Tewfik Talk 19:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
From the start, there have been some editors who question the accepted story that the incident happened on the Israeli side of the border, stating instead that it happened on the Lebanese side. However, the only source for this claim is a DPA news flash, written by a DPA correspondent in Lebanon a few hours after it happened. The content of the piece makes it obvious that it was despatched very early, as the Israeli's didn't yet want to confirm the capture, and as there is no mentioning of any dead Israelis - so this piece may very well have been the first story about the incident.
Nobody outside of DPA knows who the correspondent was, but, considering the size of DPA, it's doubtful that they keep employed staff in Lebanon, so it was probably a stringer with good local contacts; and he/she can either have been misinformed by someone or have misunderstood something. Stringers are paid per story, so they are always in a hurry to get a good story quickly to their client, especially if they think they have a scoop - and mistakes easily happen in a rushed situation.
What is clear, is that no other news agencies, newspapers or TV/radio channels seem to have ever mentioned any police statement or any claim by Hezbollah that it should have happened on the Israeli side (except those who published the DPA story). And when Nasrallah announced the capture on 13 July he also didn't say that it happened in Lebanon - and he definitely would have if that had been the case. Also, the Lebanese government has never questioned that it happened on the Israeli side, even though the DPA story claims that the government's own police force has said so. So, I think we can let that issue rest and assume that it was a mistake by a rushed stringer - unless, of course, someone can find any reliable references which aren't just a re-write of the DPA story . Thomas Blomberg 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
To anyone who can edit the main article page, i think its fair to state in the Box that the result was a ( Hezbollah success), they have managed to capture israeli soldiers which was the main purpose behind the raid, they killed 3 israeli soldiers in the process, & they killed another 5 soldiers & destroyed an israeli tank while retreating with their prisoners, if that is not a success i don't know what is.
You fail to note that Israel won officially. Not only that, but Israel killed more Hezbollah troops. IronCrow 03:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty to sort up this talk page a bit.
The article re/naming issue should be resolved. After the previous mix-up –
Due to the mix-up done by
Yousaf465 and
Flayer, I've placed a
WP:SPLICE request.
|
– the page was {{moveprotected}} by Bobet:
This page has already been moved 8 times with very little discussion. If you feel the page needs to be moved, please take it to WP:RM, since it obviously isn't uncontroversial. Thanks. - Bobet 23:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC) |
Now, there are at least two purposed alternative names:
Is there any opposition to renaming this Zar'it incident or Zar'it attack? Keeping the Ayta a-Shaab part is just confusing, and could inspire more of the conspiracy theories. Let me know... Tewfik Talk 16:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab should be put as the most NPOV name.-- TheFEARgod 12:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC) |
Personally, I don't really care about the article name. Still, I purpose to place a vote on the
main article talk page rather than here.
Meanwhile, let the young men now arise, and play before us.
Fuzzy
21:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Do we know something about the landmine the tank ran onto? Was it a Hezbollah trap, or did the tank run into an old Israeli mine left from previous occupations? Is the Israeli landmines powerful enough to damage a Merkava II?? CiaPolitica 23:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't a source but some newsitems (presumably al jazeera's but i am not sure), mentioned a 400 or 500 kg ied. 80.57.242.54 13:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source beyond the Israeli paper that claims Hezbollah used this particular type of rocket? This would have been a violation of the Israeli-Lebanese Ceasefire Understanding, and therefore Israel's justification for war; thus is should be better sourced. I'm asking the same question on the main article. -- Kendrick7 02:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Kendrik7 seems to be having a edit war with a bunch of us over whether it is considered "kidnapping" or "capturing". I think it would only be capturing if they were in Lebanon. The fact is, the terrorists crossed the border into the State of Israel and abducted Israeli soldiers. These weren't Prisoners of War, these were people kidnapped on their own soil. Valley2city 21:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I understand your position, but I will stand by my first two statements. It seems that we've clearly described the issue, our respective postions, and what we feel to be the merits of each case. What would really help now would be some participation from other editors. If no one else responds here in a reasonable time, perhaps we should post a link at the Pump (assitance) requesting further comments. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 22:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for commenting Valley2city. As for seeking further comments, should we try a WP:3 request first? RfC seems a bit drastic, almost like there's a stigma attached to it. Of course, while we discuss this so politely, the slow revert war between Anon IPs seems to continue, So I guess I'm open to anything. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 03:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
--
Kendrick7
talk
06:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL, I wouldn't object to Sprotection, in fact I almost suggested it. It might not be granted because this is a very slow-motion revert war. Lacking further input on our question, perhaps a compromise would be possible? What if we use "captured" in reference to the military action, but use "kidnapped" when refering to the aftermath? -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 15:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Sprotection was requested for this page, but declined. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 17:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed at enormous length at 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict as well. Most reputable sources use the term kidnap. Also, all wiki articles on these events should be consistent, which is why I changed it back to "kidnap", per 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. -- Avi 07:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Though I have removed myself from it, the edit-warring continues... Valley2city 07:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There's currently a discussion about this at Talk:Hezbollah#"Capture" vs. "Kidnap" -- Kendrick7 talk 22:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the article refers to the Hizballah troops involved in the incident as "irregulars." Hizballah indeed has village irregulars, but they have 7K regular troops, who seem likely to have been the guys involved in this incident, given the fire-and-maneuver tactics involved. I vote we eliminate the irregular adjective. For a pretty good description of the Hizballah force structure, see <A HREF="Hizballah at War: A Military Assessment"> http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC04.php?CID=260</A> at the Wash. Inst. for Near East Studies; I think anyone would be convinced we should drop irregular from this article. -- jackbrown 10:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
This article has the timeline of infiltration happening on the day of the attack on the patrol. The latest article on border post 105 (that im aware of) has the infiltration happening a week prior to the attack, with a go signal on july 12 and the fence being disturbed to provoke a patrol. The attack on the patrol then being the signal for the rockets to provide covering fire and not a feint at all. How reliable/authoratative this account is I dont know as it may just be a case of whoever briefed him fitting the facts to a timeline of their choosing. Although it would make more sense than the account given in the article currently.
On or about July 5, a group of between 20 and 30 Hezbollah fighters infiltrated the Israeli border near the village of Aita Al-Shaab, barely 800 metres from the border fences. They set up camp on a thickly wooded slope above the Israeli patrol road. They pitched a small tent. They set up firing positions for two rocket-propelled grenade launchers. And then they waited.
On the morning of July 12, 2006, the infiltrators received the "go" signal. They touched the security fence at several points, triggering several Israeli patrols. Two Israeli Humvees were sent to border point 105. At 9.05am, as the first Humvee slowed to negotiate a turn in the road just below the firing positions, it was hit by two rocket-propelled grenades.
The firing of the grenades was the signal for a co-ordinated response by Hezbollah along the border. Waves of rocket and mortar fire were sent across into Israel to confuse their defence and buy time for the infiltrators. When the Israelis realised where its patrol had been attacked, the Hezbollah team had already left the scene. A heavy tank was dispatched to border post 105. etc [5]
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.226.213 ( talk) 14:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
Just tell me on the merits, how you can have one leader give his pre-war expectations and not have the other leader's prewar expectation and plan. Delete one, then delete both. Or keep both in. I just don't get it. Unless the point is that only one POV is allowed?
"On 27 August the Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the abduction of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war. "Had we known that the kidnapping of the soldiers would have led to this, we would definitely not have done it," he said in an interview on Lebanese TV.[16] On the other side, however; Israeli P.M. Olmeret testified before the Winograd Comission that he had fully planned for an intensive war upon a kidnapping as early as March. 1"
00:11, 9 May 2007 Tewfik (Talk | contribs) (13,709 bytes) (I included a more accurate representation of the source, but I still disagree that it should be included since it isn't really "aftermath")
Now obviously this was a Hizbollah victory, they managed to capture Israeli's wich means they acchieved their objective, they killed 8 Israeli's and had no casualties themselfes but the Israeli members of wikipedia keep changing it for some reason. The Honorable Kermanshahi 18:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe so Kerman, but this is Wikipedia, it"ll go back & forth maybe a few times, then a partial admin will protect the page in a favored version.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 20:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
In almost all battles the victory is noted. Hizbollah won this fight although Israels respons wasn't as they had expected it to be. Maybe you should put Hizbollah military victory and strategic defeat or something like that. And I have seen tanks and planes used as casualties many times. The Honorable Kermanshahi 08:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
As per previous discussion on Talk:Ehud Goldwasser, the articles Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev are virtually identical (aside from the one-paragraph bios) and they heavily overlap with the content here. Splitting the info in three parts serves no purpose: it would be better to cover the incident and move the bios into new section here. Jpatokal ( talk) 16:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
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This article's 2nd paragraph starts with the following "Using rockets fired on several Israeli towns as a diversion" - it should be self explanatory why this would be terrorism. Since you have already been given this explanation on a different article (
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Template:Terrorist_attacks_against_Israelis_in_the_2000s&diff=prev&oldid=531164813) less than a week ago, I find it extremely hard to believe you are not aware of the explanation as to why this is terrorism. Thus, the next time you do this I am taking you straight to Arbitration enforcement. There will be no more warnings.
They think it's all over (
talk)
01:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
The template is unsupported by the article or the sources. Self explanatory is not a valid reason on Wikipedia. nableezy - 17:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
The Location section mistakenly said the raid was an 'act of war', but Hezbollah is not a government and therefor its deeds are not acts of war. I've deleted the mistake.
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Hezbollah’s Al-Manar TV has recently released extended video footage of the capture of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev. Moonswimmer Mooonswimmer 13:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Source 6 is used to claim that the UN has confirmed Shebaa Farms as Lebanese. However, the source sits behind a registration wall and the only other contemporaneous article specifying something similar that I can find is from the same website. That author later seems to counter this narrative in Sept of the same year. It should be noted that Haaretz, though Israeli, is considered broadly 'anti-settlement' which may influence its representation of the facts in this case.
An alternative contemporaneous article ( Reuters) suggests the UN cartogrophers were defining the area in 2007; this is distinct from defining who owns it.
Given that multiple articles in 2013/14 and 2023/24 seem to make no mention of a UN statement on the matter (and I've found no such UN statement), it may be better to rephrase this paragraph to be more in line with other Wikipedia pages on the subject ( Shebaa Farms) which express the unresolved contested claims on the area. Recognize All ( talk) 21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
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I say "resulted in 2006 Lebanon war" because that is NPOV. Israel had NOT itself respected Lebanese sovereignty-so the Lebanese could claim harassing overflights as "acts of war". 70.190.102.49 ( talk) 02:19, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
The incident section in Ayta ash-Shab is redundant, as it was already included in this article. Fuzzy 22:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Rather not. The Ayta ash-Shab is actually a location stub and information about the location should be added. The other article describes in first row the event which started the conflict. -- 213.155.224.232 16:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Where did the information about injuring 5 civilians come from? The link [1] in "injuring 5 civilians[1]" does not work. It seems that other articles cited in the text do not mention it.
R.R.S. 7 August, 2006
from the figaro article
what is meant by "these kidnappings extend beyond our country's borders" is that they are influenced by Syria, Teheran, and events in Gaza. He is not offering an opinion whether it is a "cross-border" raid. Will314159 13:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
A MEMRI interpretation? Get Real. Best Wishes. Will314159 10:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You ask about "prisoners." I have tried investigating this issue online. So far, it appears that Israel has 3 or 4 Lebanese in custody. The Lebanese call them "detainees" and are particularly interested in getting one of them back. They describe him as being unfairly detained by Israel. But, if you look him up, he was arrested inside Israel, tried and convicted. He is in jail because he took a father and child down to the beach at gunpoint, shot dead the father, beat the child to death and killed two police officers before he was arrested.
There are actually many, many people in Israel's jails awaiting trial. Some of them are Lebanese. If I have more time later I'll come back with a source. --
Jonmedeiros
23:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This page should be also protected. Flayer 09:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why the you need Guards for propoganda. Yousaf465
Incident is disputed about the crossing of border by any side so pl check. Yousaf465
have you ever visited jewish virtual libaray then you may know how to convince Dozens of international "journalists" abut you point of view.HAHAHAHa funny guards o.k i will sent mine Two guards if you can't rely on yours.HAhAHAA Yousaf465
This article also claims to true in that a serving officer in PAF runs a website which prove IAF claims what a pity thing that PAF is they let a oficier do propoganda against his own country then how can you trust these sources. [1] i don't understand how then they run this PAF
If Yousaf465, or his friend's IP, shall violate the WP:3RR rule once again, I'll press an official complaint ( As it seems he doesn't understand clues). Fuzzy 22:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There is certainly a pov element in the text and editing. Personally i found that every historically interesting or relevant case bears these pov elements in wikipedia.
To give a simple example, what turns these forces of hezbollah into irregulars?? (so pov descriptions and depictions of hezbollah infiltrate already the first chapter.) Without going into more detail (although the landmine inssue can be concerned likewise, and the prisoner- ase for killing at he beeach, is obscuring and very possibly obscurant, what does it have to do here anyway??)
Back to irregulars, The idf ofcourse describes hezbollah as irregulars.. who else would do that?? In fact these were among the most organised , best guided units of hezbollah, very probably with a full time job or function in lebanon. So irregulars is a derogatory here. Ofcourse you can make the point that for israelians hezbollah is illegal. Well that is POV. Becus is it illegal for lebanese? no. so here s your answer .. good luck 'neatening up' this relevant contribution. 80.57.242.54 14:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Haaretz.com Any logical place to put this information ? imi2 08:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The source, Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border, does not say the incident started at 9:05. It says about 9:00. It also doesn't mention the villages of Even Menahem and Mattat. It doesn't mention any "Humvees" either. It says "The fighting began at about 9:00 A.M., when a group of reserve soldiers in two armored jeeps was conducting a routine patrol of the border. As the jeeps passed between Moshav Zarit and Moshav Shtula, Hezbollah attacked."
Here are some additional sources regarding the initial [diversionary?] rocket attacks on civilian locations in Israel by Hezbollah. I recall that there is a more detailed discussion buried in one of the page archives (perhaps around October 5-6), but I couldn't find it after searching for some time.
הדיווח על החטיפה הגיע זמן קצר לאחר מטח של קטיושות ופצצות מרגמה שירו אנשי החיזבאללה לעבר הצפון. מעט אחרי השעה 9:00 בבוקר החל החיזבאללה בירי מאסיבי של קטיושות, פצצות מרגמה ונשק קל לעבר מוצבים ויישובים בגבול הצפון ובהם: שתולה, נורית, זרעית, אבן מנחם, מתת ומרגליות. Translation: "The kidnaping was reported shortly after a barrage of katyushas and mortars fired by Hezbollah into northern Israel. A little after 9:00 am, the Hezbollah commenced massive fire of katyushas, mortars, and light weapons at [IDF] positions and towns on the northern border, among them: Shetula, Nurit, Zar'it, Even Menahem, Mattat, and Margaliot"
Cheers, Tewfik Talk 19:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
From the start, there have been some editors who question the accepted story that the incident happened on the Israeli side of the border, stating instead that it happened on the Lebanese side. However, the only source for this claim is a DPA news flash, written by a DPA correspondent in Lebanon a few hours after it happened. The content of the piece makes it obvious that it was despatched very early, as the Israeli's didn't yet want to confirm the capture, and as there is no mentioning of any dead Israelis - so this piece may very well have been the first story about the incident.
Nobody outside of DPA knows who the correspondent was, but, considering the size of DPA, it's doubtful that they keep employed staff in Lebanon, so it was probably a stringer with good local contacts; and he/she can either have been misinformed by someone or have misunderstood something. Stringers are paid per story, so they are always in a hurry to get a good story quickly to their client, especially if they think they have a scoop - and mistakes easily happen in a rushed situation.
What is clear, is that no other news agencies, newspapers or TV/radio channels seem to have ever mentioned any police statement or any claim by Hezbollah that it should have happened on the Israeli side (except those who published the DPA story). And when Nasrallah announced the capture on 13 July he also didn't say that it happened in Lebanon - and he definitely would have if that had been the case. Also, the Lebanese government has never questioned that it happened on the Israeli side, even though the DPA story claims that the government's own police force has said so. So, I think we can let that issue rest and assume that it was a mistake by a rushed stringer - unless, of course, someone can find any reliable references which aren't just a re-write of the DPA story . Thomas Blomberg 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
To anyone who can edit the main article page, i think its fair to state in the Box that the result was a ( Hezbollah success), they have managed to capture israeli soldiers which was the main purpose behind the raid, they killed 3 israeli soldiers in the process, & they killed another 5 soldiers & destroyed an israeli tank while retreating with their prisoners, if that is not a success i don't know what is.
You fail to note that Israel won officially. Not only that, but Israel killed more Hezbollah troops. IronCrow 03:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty to sort up this talk page a bit.
The article re/naming issue should be resolved. After the previous mix-up –
Due to the mix-up done by
Yousaf465 and
Flayer, I've placed a
WP:SPLICE request.
|
– the page was {{moveprotected}} by Bobet:
This page has already been moved 8 times with very little discussion. If you feel the page needs to be moved, please take it to WP:RM, since it obviously isn't uncontroversial. Thanks. - Bobet 23:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC) |
Now, there are at least two purposed alternative names:
Is there any opposition to renaming this Zar'it incident or Zar'it attack? Keeping the Ayta a-Shaab part is just confusing, and could inspire more of the conspiracy theories. Let me know... Tewfik Talk 16:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) |
Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab should be put as the most NPOV name.-- TheFEARgod 12:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC) |
Personally, I don't really care about the article name. Still, I purpose to place a vote on the
main article talk page rather than here.
Meanwhile, let the young men now arise, and play before us.
Fuzzy
21:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Do we know something about the landmine the tank ran onto? Was it a Hezbollah trap, or did the tank run into an old Israeli mine left from previous occupations? Is the Israeli landmines powerful enough to damage a Merkava II?? CiaPolitica 23:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't a source but some newsitems (presumably al jazeera's but i am not sure), mentioned a 400 or 500 kg ied. 80.57.242.54 13:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source beyond the Israeli paper that claims Hezbollah used this particular type of rocket? This would have been a violation of the Israeli-Lebanese Ceasefire Understanding, and therefore Israel's justification for war; thus is should be better sourced. I'm asking the same question on the main article. -- Kendrick7 02:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Kendrik7 seems to be having a edit war with a bunch of us over whether it is considered "kidnapping" or "capturing". I think it would only be capturing if they were in Lebanon. The fact is, the terrorists crossed the border into the State of Israel and abducted Israeli soldiers. These weren't Prisoners of War, these were people kidnapped on their own soil. Valley2city 21:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I understand your position, but I will stand by my first two statements. It seems that we've clearly described the issue, our respective postions, and what we feel to be the merits of each case. What would really help now would be some participation from other editors. If no one else responds here in a reasonable time, perhaps we should post a link at the Pump (assitance) requesting further comments. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 22:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for commenting Valley2city. As for seeking further comments, should we try a WP:3 request first? RfC seems a bit drastic, almost like there's a stigma attached to it. Of course, while we discuss this so politely, the slow revert war between Anon IPs seems to continue, So I guess I'm open to anything. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 03:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
--
Kendrick7
talk
06:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL, I wouldn't object to Sprotection, in fact I almost suggested it. It might not be granted because this is a very slow-motion revert war. Lacking further input on our question, perhaps a compromise would be possible? What if we use "captured" in reference to the military action, but use "kidnapped" when refering to the aftermath? -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 15:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Sprotection was requested for this page, but declined. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 17:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed at enormous length at 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict as well. Most reputable sources use the term kidnap. Also, all wiki articles on these events should be consistent, which is why I changed it back to "kidnap", per 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. -- Avi 07:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Though I have removed myself from it, the edit-warring continues... Valley2city 07:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There's currently a discussion about this at Talk:Hezbollah#"Capture" vs. "Kidnap" -- Kendrick7 talk 22:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the article refers to the Hizballah troops involved in the incident as "irregulars." Hizballah indeed has village irregulars, but they have 7K regular troops, who seem likely to have been the guys involved in this incident, given the fire-and-maneuver tactics involved. I vote we eliminate the irregular adjective. For a pretty good description of the Hizballah force structure, see <A HREF="Hizballah at War: A Military Assessment"> http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC04.php?CID=260</A> at the Wash. Inst. for Near East Studies; I think anyone would be convinced we should drop irregular from this article. -- jackbrown 10:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
This article has the timeline of infiltration happening on the day of the attack on the patrol. The latest article on border post 105 (that im aware of) has the infiltration happening a week prior to the attack, with a go signal on july 12 and the fence being disturbed to provoke a patrol. The attack on the patrol then being the signal for the rockets to provide covering fire and not a feint at all. How reliable/authoratative this account is I dont know as it may just be a case of whoever briefed him fitting the facts to a timeline of their choosing. Although it would make more sense than the account given in the article currently.
On or about July 5, a group of between 20 and 30 Hezbollah fighters infiltrated the Israeli border near the village of Aita Al-Shaab, barely 800 metres from the border fences. They set up camp on a thickly wooded slope above the Israeli patrol road. They pitched a small tent. They set up firing positions for two rocket-propelled grenade launchers. And then they waited.
On the morning of July 12, 2006, the infiltrators received the "go" signal. They touched the security fence at several points, triggering several Israeli patrols. Two Israeli Humvees were sent to border point 105. At 9.05am, as the first Humvee slowed to negotiate a turn in the road just below the firing positions, it was hit by two rocket-propelled grenades.
The firing of the grenades was the signal for a co-ordinated response by Hezbollah along the border. Waves of rocket and mortar fire were sent across into Israel to confuse their defence and buy time for the infiltrators. When the Israelis realised where its patrol had been attacked, the Hezbollah team had already left the scene. A heavy tank was dispatched to border post 105. etc [5]
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.226.213 ( talk) 14:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
Just tell me on the merits, how you can have one leader give his pre-war expectations and not have the other leader's prewar expectation and plan. Delete one, then delete both. Or keep both in. I just don't get it. Unless the point is that only one POV is allowed?
"On 27 August the Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the abduction of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war. "Had we known that the kidnapping of the soldiers would have led to this, we would definitely not have done it," he said in an interview on Lebanese TV.[16] On the other side, however; Israeli P.M. Olmeret testified before the Winograd Comission that he had fully planned for an intensive war upon a kidnapping as early as March. 1"
00:11, 9 May 2007 Tewfik (Talk | contribs) (13,709 bytes) (I included a more accurate representation of the source, but I still disagree that it should be included since it isn't really "aftermath")
Now obviously this was a Hizbollah victory, they managed to capture Israeli's wich means they acchieved their objective, they killed 8 Israeli's and had no casualties themselfes but the Israeli members of wikipedia keep changing it for some reason. The Honorable Kermanshahi 18:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe so Kerman, but this is Wikipedia, it"ll go back & forth maybe a few times, then a partial admin will protect the page in a favored version.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 20:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
In almost all battles the victory is noted. Hizbollah won this fight although Israels respons wasn't as they had expected it to be. Maybe you should put Hizbollah military victory and strategic defeat or something like that. And I have seen tanks and planes used as casualties many times. The Honorable Kermanshahi 08:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
As per previous discussion on Talk:Ehud Goldwasser, the articles Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev are virtually identical (aside from the one-paragraph bios) and they heavily overlap with the content here. Splitting the info in three parts serves no purpose: it would be better to cover the incident and move the bios into new section here. Jpatokal ( talk) 16:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
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This article's 2nd paragraph starts with the following "Using rockets fired on several Israeli towns as a diversion" - it should be self explanatory why this would be terrorism. Since you have already been given this explanation on a different article (
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Template:Terrorist_attacks_against_Israelis_in_the_2000s&diff=prev&oldid=531164813) less than a week ago, I find it extremely hard to believe you are not aware of the explanation as to why this is terrorism. Thus, the next time you do this I am taking you straight to Arbitration enforcement. There will be no more warnings.
They think it's all over (
talk)
01:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
The template is unsupported by the article or the sources. Self explanatory is not a valid reason on Wikipedia. nableezy - 17:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
The Location section mistakenly said the raid was an 'act of war', but Hezbollah is not a government and therefor its deeds are not acts of war. I've deleted the mistake.
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Hezbollah’s Al-Manar TV has recently released extended video footage of the capture of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev. Moonswimmer Mooonswimmer 13:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Source 6 is used to claim that the UN has confirmed Shebaa Farms as Lebanese. However, the source sits behind a registration wall and the only other contemporaneous article specifying something similar that I can find is from the same website. That author later seems to counter this narrative in Sept of the same year. It should be noted that Haaretz, though Israeli, is considered broadly 'anti-settlement' which may influence its representation of the facts in this case.
An alternative contemporaneous article ( Reuters) suggests the UN cartogrophers were defining the area in 2007; this is distinct from defining who owns it.
Given that multiple articles in 2013/14 and 2023/24 seem to make no mention of a UN statement on the matter (and I've found no such UN statement), it may be better to rephrase this paragraph to be more in line with other Wikipedia pages on the subject ( Shebaa Farms) which express the unresolved contested claims on the area. Recognize All ( talk) 21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)