![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/2004 U.S. presidential election controversy, vote suppression
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 20 April 2008. The result of the discussion was merge and redirect. |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. |
This page needs cleanup and NPOVing for reason stated on this page (see further down), as well as details mentioned at its VfD, which wre never addressed. - R. fiend 02:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Cuyahoga County Votes Finally Certified [1]
Kevin Baas | talk 19:09, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)
"Mr Arnebeck said that hearings held in Ohio cities have brought to light new evidence of malpractice. He said one voter of a pro-Republican group caught destroying Democratic registration documents in Nevada before the election, had also been operating in Ohio."
[2]
Kevin Baas | talk 03:30, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
What do you think about replacing the Kerry Support vs. Turnout graph with this one? A scatter plot is the usual way to show correlation. And a weighted regression is really needed to determine whether all those odd outliers in the lower-right quadrant of the graph are really significant.
rerdavies 06:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nice. I agree completely. My only contention is that the graph posted is for cuyahoga precincts, whereas the one up right now is for ohio counties (state-wide). The graph you made is similiar to the vote suppression->voting machine shortages for cuyahoga county. Kevin Baas | talk 18:28, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
Nevermind, that's what you're talking about. Ya. I think it's great. The graph is beautiful. I'm going to switch it out right now. BTW, I put a section header on this talk page subject. Kevin Baas | talk 18:34, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
A source with some good info: [3]. I remember another one, talked about precincts, including loss of precincts, so-called "squeezing", so-called "active voters" vs. "registered voters", archiac paper thickness restriction on absentee ballots being applied, etc. Kevin Baas | talk 17:35, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC) Oh yes, here it is. Kevin Baas | talk 21:39, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC)
"An analysis of the Franklin County Board of Elections’ allocation of machines reveals a consistent pattern of providing fewer machines to the Democratic city of Columbus, with its Democratic mayor and uniformly Democratic city council, despite increased voter registration in the city."
"...while voters waited in lines ranging from 2-7 hours at polling places, 68 electronic voting machines remained in storage and were never used on Election Day."
"The result was an obvious disparity in machine allocations compared to the primarily Republican white affluent suburbs"
From a column by Bob Fitrakis for The Free Press noosphere 23:14, 2004 Nov 20 (UTC)
"Of Ohio’s 88 counties, 20 suffered a significant reduction — shutting at least 20 percent (or at least 30) of their precincts. Most of those counties have Republicans serving as Board of Elections director, including the four biggest: Cuyahoga, Montgomery, Summit, and Lucas.
Those 20 counties went heavily to Gore in 2000, 53 to 42 percent. The other 68 counties, which underwent little-to-no precinct consolidation, went exactly the opposite way in 2000: 53 to 42 percent to Bush."
From: (Boston Phoenix). Kevin Baas | talk 20:49, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)
There is a lot of specific info out there on freepress and other sources, should all of those be integrated into this article and if so, how? Kevin Baas talk 00:37, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)
Something should be included in this article about the dozens of GOP rented vans which had their tires slashed by five Kerry-Edwards campaign staffers, including the sons of two prominent Milwaukee Democratic politicians on the night before election day. Criminal charges have been filed, and the case is currently ongoing. 1, 2, 3 --BaronLarf 21:58, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[8] -needs to be integrated into the article. Kevin Baas talk: new 22:11, 2005 May 28 (UTC)
Does this sentence make sense: "This means that, where support for Kerry was high, the voters didn't turnout, for whatever reason"? If the voters didn't turn out, then how was support for Kerry "high"? We have no real data to use to gauge Kerry support except voter turnout. - R. fiend 2 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)
These graphs do not appear to be from a reputable source, and are suspect on their merits as well. In particular, they seem to be attempting to do linear regression on obviously nonlinear data, which results in basically drawing a meaningless line through a scatterplot. But in any case, the data analysis seems to have been done specifically by Wikipedians for this article, which violates Wikipedia:No original research. -- Delirium 09:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
While the data may be cited, the presentation of the data is this format is indeed the orginal work of the artist who made the graphs. If those graphs have not been previously piblished by a reliable source, then then are a WP:RS violation. Please see the entry for How to Lie with Statistics and read the book. The manner of rpesentation of information for controversial topics is fraught is questions of validity. This is why we seek sources notable, reliable sources for the items we post. I strongly object to the use of these graphs. 216.239.38.136 19:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Based on a review of the subject material current in the article, the name " 2004 United States presidential election controversy, vote suppression" is not accurate. I move that this article be renamed " 2004 United States presidential election, Ohio allegations". I say this because almost all the information (and certainly the great bulk of the disputed graphs) is about Ohio and allegations pertaining to complaints from there. 216.239.38.136 19:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
This entire article is simply Kevin Baas and a few other people's editorializing. The article is highly POV and probably doesn't belong in wikipedia at all. I agree with the early npov tagger who said to the effect this belongs on some partisan political site, not here.
I removed the following Washington Post reference as not relevant to vote suppression:
We've done a post-election poll of 1,400 rural and exurban voters in Ohio counties that Bush won by an average of 17 percentage points. Their answers, and a closer look at other poll data, explode a few widely held theories about what happened...
...Third myth: A wave of newly registered Republican voters in fast-growing rural and exurban areas carried Bush to victory.
Reality: Among Ohio's rural and exurban voters, Bush beat Kerry by just five points among newly registered voters and by a mere two points among infrequent voters (those who did not vote in 2000).
Fourth myth: Republicans ran a superior, volunteer-driven mobilization effort.
Reality: When we asked new voters in rural and exurban areas who contacted them during this campaign, we learned that they were just as likely to hear from the Kerry campaign and its allies as from the Bush side. (In contrast, regular voters reported more contact from the GOP.)
The author, Steve Rosenthal, attempts to answer the question of "why we lost Ohio" on page 2 of the article. He doesn't even consider vote suppression, but instead concludes:
The Bush campaign was able to persuade some voters who supported Gore in 2000 to turn to Bush in 2004 on the issues of terrorism, strength and leadership. Bush bested Kerry among those who voted in 2000 by five percentage points -- Bush bested Gore in 2000 by three points.
The other major factor was our side's failure to win the economic debate. Despite an economy that was not delivering for many working people in Ohio, the exit poll results show that voters in Ohio did not see Kerry providing a clear alternative. Just 45 percent expressed confidence that Kerry could handle the economy, compared with Bush's 49 percent.
The GOP put on a strong mobilization effort, but that's not what tipped the Ohio election. They did not turn Gore voters into Bush voters by offering a ride to the polls. Instead, it was skillful exploitation of public concern over terrorism by the Bush team -- coupled with Democrats' inability to draw clear, powerful contrasts on the economy and health care -- that pushed Bush over the finish line.
(Id.)
I wouldn't have an objection to including a much shorter reference if it explained the relevance of this article, but given that the author (1) is a Dem supporter and (2) still concludes that the reason Kerry lost Ohio is demagoguery on terrorism rather than vote suppression makes the use of the quote misleading, IMHO.
Let me know your thoughts, TheronJ 20:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Anon - are you Rex? Also, the section you have reverted back in (a lengthy quoted editorial) is unlike other references herein, as it is an opinion piece being quoted. Please discuss your rationale here for this suggested addition of yours - we need to resolve this issue especially since article probation is in effect on this article and counter-productive behavior is bannable. Repeated attempts to provoke revert warring could earn a ban.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
...but unsurprising, that this article does not include the tire-slashing incident in Wisconsin, where Democratic activists, including a congress member's son, slashed tires of GOP get-out-the-vote vans. A2Kafir 18:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
This section contains no real facts that are relevant here. The section asserts that fraud could have happened, not that it actually did. Additionally, the wording is a POV problem, in my opinion. Why is it relevant that the sorters were ex-felons? It looks like an attempt to bolster non-verifiable or non-factual opinions. 65.29.77.247 00:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok no one commented with objections so i removed it. 65.29.77.247 03:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This section is just a press release for a lawsuit, why is it relevant? 65.29.77.247 00:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed 65.29.77.247 03:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I feel that the line "Joining him in the appeal as a citizen intervener was Thomas Noe who would become the key figure in Coingate." is irrelevant to the discussion of the blackwell lawsuit. Should i be just editing the material or is it appropriate to discuss first? Im relitivly new to this. 65.29.77.247 00:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Done 65.29.77.247 03:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
75.184.118.53 ( talk) 00:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
HAVA sec 302 does not say that Provisional ballots should be counted if cast in the wrong jurisdiction [12] removing Bonewah 03:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The linked article does not say that the democrats believed that the law in question violates federal law. Bonewah 04:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
SEC. 302. PROVISIONAL VOTING AND VOTING INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS. (a) Provisional Voting Requirements.--If an individual declares that such individual is a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the individual desires to vote and that the individual is eligible to vote in an election for Federal office, but the name of the individual does not appear on the official list of eligible voters for the polling place or an election official asserts that the individual is not eligible to vote, such individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot as follows: (1) An election official at the polling place shall notify the individual that the individual may cast a provisional ballot in that election. (2) The individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot at that polling place upon the execution of a written affirmation by the individual before an election official at the polling place stating that the individual is-- (A) a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the individual desires to vote; and (B) eligible to vote in that election. (3) An election official at the polling place shall transmit the ballot cast by the individual or the voter information contained in the written affirmation executed by the individual under paragraph (2) to an appropriate State or local election official for prompt verification under paragraph (4). (4) If the appropriate State or local election official to whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under State law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law.
Kevin Baas talk 16:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please show me in this section where voters are allowed to vote in any precinct they chose? Also, the federal judge who heard this case ruled that HAVA does not allow for votes to be counted if cast in the wrong place. 75.184.118.53 ( talk) 00:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
65.29.77.247
01:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The section Misdirection of voters relies on this link http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\\Politics\\archive\\200412\\POL20041208b.html as a citation. I dont believe the NAACP is really a reliable source for information on this subject. Comments? Bonewah 03:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This section is also highly problematic, besides links to a database, the only external link is to the (dead) shadowbox. Some of seems supportable, but no links are there. Also, characterizing long lines as disenfranchisement seems a bit POV. Long lines are troublesome and may cause some to not vote, but may cause and did cause are two different things.
In democratic counties in Ohio with at least three reported long line incidents, counties with higher voter turnouts have more long line incident reports per registered voter. Statewide voter turnout is 69.86%, whereas in said counties, which make up 34.34% of registered voters in Ohio, voter turnout averaged 66.01%, and elsewhere it averaged 71.87%, for a difference of 5.85%.
1357 incidents of this type have been reported, 459 of which are from Ohio [17], and 191 of which are from Florida [18].
This link talks about voting machine shortages to some extent, in that the people responsible admit there were problems: http://www.motherjones.com/arts/books/2005/11/recounting_ohio-3.html Beyond shortages, however, the article doesnt support the text of this section. Bonewah ( talk) 20:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
This link talks about voting machine shortages and black precincts, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article502303.ece and their is an abstract talking in greater detail here http://www.aaas.org/spp/sfrl/voting_project/2006/WalterMebaneEW.shtml so between the 2 a rewrite should be possible. Bonewah ( talk) 21:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
First, i feel this section contains mostly unsourced speculation such as
This could be because Democrats were targeted
and
But most expectations were for him to make up several thousand votes, since the majority of provisional ballots might have been in certain Dem-heavy precincts in those counties
Second, the only source here is dkosopedia.com and just contains a breakdown of provisional ballots. I dont think dkosopedia.com is reliable and even if it is, it doesnt support the text of this section. Id like to remove this whole section Bonewah ( talk) 02:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
As descussed below, im going to revert to the last edit i made. The charts that were removed are from a suspicious source, are not peer reviewed and dont meet the standards of a wiki refrence. The claims about HAVA sec 302 are incorrect. Including a press release from a lawsuit that was dismissed is pointless. Bonewah ( talk) 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
2) The individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional
ballot at that polling place upon the execution of a written
affirmation by the individual before an election official at the
polling place stating that the individual is--
(A) a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which
the individual desires to vote;
(4) If the appropriate State or local election official to whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under State law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law."
requires that these votes be counted. I do not see how this can be made any more simple or any more plain. Kevin Baas talk 16:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
At bottom, this is a case of statutory interpretation. Does the Help America Vote Act require that all states count votes (at least for most federal elections) cast by provisional ballot as legal votes, even if cast in a precinct in which the voter does not reside, so long as they are cast within a “jurisdiction” that may be as large as a city or county of millions of citizens? We hold that neither the statutory text or structure, the legislative history, nor the understanding, until now, of those concerned with voting procedures compels or even permits that conclusion. Thus, although we affirm many of the rulings of the district court and its proper orders requiring compliance with HAVA’s requirements for the casting of provisional ballots, we hold that ballots cast in a precinct where the voter does not reside and which would be invalid under state law for that reason are not required by HAVA to be considered legal votes.
To hold otherwise would interpret Congress’s reasonably clear procedural language to mean that political parties would now be authorized to marshal their supporters at the last minute from shopping centers, office buildings, or factories, and urge them to vote at whatever polling place happened to be handy, all in an effort to turn out every last vote regardless of state law and historical practice. We do not believe that Congress quietly worked such a revolution in America’s voting procedures, and we will not order it.
this is from the decision linked in the main article Bonewah ( talk) 20:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/2004 U.S. presidential election controversy, vote suppression
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 20 April 2008. The result of the discussion was merge and redirect. |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. |
This page needs cleanup and NPOVing for reason stated on this page (see further down), as well as details mentioned at its VfD, which wre never addressed. - R. fiend 02:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Cuyahoga County Votes Finally Certified [1]
Kevin Baas | talk 19:09, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)
"Mr Arnebeck said that hearings held in Ohio cities have brought to light new evidence of malpractice. He said one voter of a pro-Republican group caught destroying Democratic registration documents in Nevada before the election, had also been operating in Ohio."
[2]
Kevin Baas | talk 03:30, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
What do you think about replacing the Kerry Support vs. Turnout graph with this one? A scatter plot is the usual way to show correlation. And a weighted regression is really needed to determine whether all those odd outliers in the lower-right quadrant of the graph are really significant.
rerdavies 06:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nice. I agree completely. My only contention is that the graph posted is for cuyahoga precincts, whereas the one up right now is for ohio counties (state-wide). The graph you made is similiar to the vote suppression->voting machine shortages for cuyahoga county. Kevin Baas | talk 18:28, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
Nevermind, that's what you're talking about. Ya. I think it's great. The graph is beautiful. I'm going to switch it out right now. BTW, I put a section header on this talk page subject. Kevin Baas | talk 18:34, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
A source with some good info: [3]. I remember another one, talked about precincts, including loss of precincts, so-called "squeezing", so-called "active voters" vs. "registered voters", archiac paper thickness restriction on absentee ballots being applied, etc. Kevin Baas | talk 17:35, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC) Oh yes, here it is. Kevin Baas | talk 21:39, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC)
"An analysis of the Franklin County Board of Elections’ allocation of machines reveals a consistent pattern of providing fewer machines to the Democratic city of Columbus, with its Democratic mayor and uniformly Democratic city council, despite increased voter registration in the city."
"...while voters waited in lines ranging from 2-7 hours at polling places, 68 electronic voting machines remained in storage and were never used on Election Day."
"The result was an obvious disparity in machine allocations compared to the primarily Republican white affluent suburbs"
From a column by Bob Fitrakis for The Free Press noosphere 23:14, 2004 Nov 20 (UTC)
"Of Ohio’s 88 counties, 20 suffered a significant reduction — shutting at least 20 percent (or at least 30) of their precincts. Most of those counties have Republicans serving as Board of Elections director, including the four biggest: Cuyahoga, Montgomery, Summit, and Lucas.
Those 20 counties went heavily to Gore in 2000, 53 to 42 percent. The other 68 counties, which underwent little-to-no precinct consolidation, went exactly the opposite way in 2000: 53 to 42 percent to Bush."
From: (Boston Phoenix). Kevin Baas | talk 20:49, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)
There is a lot of specific info out there on freepress and other sources, should all of those be integrated into this article and if so, how? Kevin Baas talk 00:37, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)
Something should be included in this article about the dozens of GOP rented vans which had their tires slashed by five Kerry-Edwards campaign staffers, including the sons of two prominent Milwaukee Democratic politicians on the night before election day. Criminal charges have been filed, and the case is currently ongoing. 1, 2, 3 --BaronLarf 21:58, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[8] -needs to be integrated into the article. Kevin Baas talk: new 22:11, 2005 May 28 (UTC)
Does this sentence make sense: "This means that, where support for Kerry was high, the voters didn't turnout, for whatever reason"? If the voters didn't turn out, then how was support for Kerry "high"? We have no real data to use to gauge Kerry support except voter turnout. - R. fiend 2 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)
These graphs do not appear to be from a reputable source, and are suspect on their merits as well. In particular, they seem to be attempting to do linear regression on obviously nonlinear data, which results in basically drawing a meaningless line through a scatterplot. But in any case, the data analysis seems to have been done specifically by Wikipedians for this article, which violates Wikipedia:No original research. -- Delirium 09:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
While the data may be cited, the presentation of the data is this format is indeed the orginal work of the artist who made the graphs. If those graphs have not been previously piblished by a reliable source, then then are a WP:RS violation. Please see the entry for How to Lie with Statistics and read the book. The manner of rpesentation of information for controversial topics is fraught is questions of validity. This is why we seek sources notable, reliable sources for the items we post. I strongly object to the use of these graphs. 216.239.38.136 19:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Based on a review of the subject material current in the article, the name " 2004 United States presidential election controversy, vote suppression" is not accurate. I move that this article be renamed " 2004 United States presidential election, Ohio allegations". I say this because almost all the information (and certainly the great bulk of the disputed graphs) is about Ohio and allegations pertaining to complaints from there. 216.239.38.136 19:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
This entire article is simply Kevin Baas and a few other people's editorializing. The article is highly POV and probably doesn't belong in wikipedia at all. I agree with the early npov tagger who said to the effect this belongs on some partisan political site, not here.
I removed the following Washington Post reference as not relevant to vote suppression:
We've done a post-election poll of 1,400 rural and exurban voters in Ohio counties that Bush won by an average of 17 percentage points. Their answers, and a closer look at other poll data, explode a few widely held theories about what happened...
...Third myth: A wave of newly registered Republican voters in fast-growing rural and exurban areas carried Bush to victory.
Reality: Among Ohio's rural and exurban voters, Bush beat Kerry by just five points among newly registered voters and by a mere two points among infrequent voters (those who did not vote in 2000).
Fourth myth: Republicans ran a superior, volunteer-driven mobilization effort.
Reality: When we asked new voters in rural and exurban areas who contacted them during this campaign, we learned that they were just as likely to hear from the Kerry campaign and its allies as from the Bush side. (In contrast, regular voters reported more contact from the GOP.)
The author, Steve Rosenthal, attempts to answer the question of "why we lost Ohio" on page 2 of the article. He doesn't even consider vote suppression, but instead concludes:
The Bush campaign was able to persuade some voters who supported Gore in 2000 to turn to Bush in 2004 on the issues of terrorism, strength and leadership. Bush bested Kerry among those who voted in 2000 by five percentage points -- Bush bested Gore in 2000 by three points.
The other major factor was our side's failure to win the economic debate. Despite an economy that was not delivering for many working people in Ohio, the exit poll results show that voters in Ohio did not see Kerry providing a clear alternative. Just 45 percent expressed confidence that Kerry could handle the economy, compared with Bush's 49 percent.
The GOP put on a strong mobilization effort, but that's not what tipped the Ohio election. They did not turn Gore voters into Bush voters by offering a ride to the polls. Instead, it was skillful exploitation of public concern over terrorism by the Bush team -- coupled with Democrats' inability to draw clear, powerful contrasts on the economy and health care -- that pushed Bush over the finish line.
(Id.)
I wouldn't have an objection to including a much shorter reference if it explained the relevance of this article, but given that the author (1) is a Dem supporter and (2) still concludes that the reason Kerry lost Ohio is demagoguery on terrorism rather than vote suppression makes the use of the quote misleading, IMHO.
Let me know your thoughts, TheronJ 20:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Anon - are you Rex? Also, the section you have reverted back in (a lengthy quoted editorial) is unlike other references herein, as it is an opinion piece being quoted. Please discuss your rationale here for this suggested addition of yours - we need to resolve this issue especially since article probation is in effect on this article and counter-productive behavior is bannable. Repeated attempts to provoke revert warring could earn a ban.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
...but unsurprising, that this article does not include the tire-slashing incident in Wisconsin, where Democratic activists, including a congress member's son, slashed tires of GOP get-out-the-vote vans. A2Kafir 18:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
This section contains no real facts that are relevant here. The section asserts that fraud could have happened, not that it actually did. Additionally, the wording is a POV problem, in my opinion. Why is it relevant that the sorters were ex-felons? It looks like an attempt to bolster non-verifiable or non-factual opinions. 65.29.77.247 00:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok no one commented with objections so i removed it. 65.29.77.247 03:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This section is just a press release for a lawsuit, why is it relevant? 65.29.77.247 00:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed 65.29.77.247 03:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I feel that the line "Joining him in the appeal as a citizen intervener was Thomas Noe who would become the key figure in Coingate." is irrelevant to the discussion of the blackwell lawsuit. Should i be just editing the material or is it appropriate to discuss first? Im relitivly new to this. 65.29.77.247 00:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Done 65.29.77.247 03:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
75.184.118.53 ( talk) 00:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
HAVA sec 302 does not say that Provisional ballots should be counted if cast in the wrong jurisdiction [12] removing Bonewah 03:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The linked article does not say that the democrats believed that the law in question violates federal law. Bonewah 04:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
SEC. 302. PROVISIONAL VOTING AND VOTING INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS. (a) Provisional Voting Requirements.--If an individual declares that such individual is a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the individual desires to vote and that the individual is eligible to vote in an election for Federal office, but the name of the individual does not appear on the official list of eligible voters for the polling place or an election official asserts that the individual is not eligible to vote, such individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot as follows: (1) An election official at the polling place shall notify the individual that the individual may cast a provisional ballot in that election. (2) The individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot at that polling place upon the execution of a written affirmation by the individual before an election official at the polling place stating that the individual is-- (A) a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the individual desires to vote; and (B) eligible to vote in that election. (3) An election official at the polling place shall transmit the ballot cast by the individual or the voter information contained in the written affirmation executed by the individual under paragraph (2) to an appropriate State or local election official for prompt verification under paragraph (4). (4) If the appropriate State or local election official to whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under State law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law.
Kevin Baas talk 16:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please show me in this section where voters are allowed to vote in any precinct they chose? Also, the federal judge who heard this case ruled that HAVA does not allow for votes to be counted if cast in the wrong place. 75.184.118.53 ( talk) 00:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
65.29.77.247
01:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The section Misdirection of voters relies on this link http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\\Politics\\archive\\200412\\POL20041208b.html as a citation. I dont believe the NAACP is really a reliable source for information on this subject. Comments? Bonewah 03:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This section is also highly problematic, besides links to a database, the only external link is to the (dead) shadowbox. Some of seems supportable, but no links are there. Also, characterizing long lines as disenfranchisement seems a bit POV. Long lines are troublesome and may cause some to not vote, but may cause and did cause are two different things.
In democratic counties in Ohio with at least three reported long line incidents, counties with higher voter turnouts have more long line incident reports per registered voter. Statewide voter turnout is 69.86%, whereas in said counties, which make up 34.34% of registered voters in Ohio, voter turnout averaged 66.01%, and elsewhere it averaged 71.87%, for a difference of 5.85%.
1357 incidents of this type have been reported, 459 of which are from Ohio [17], and 191 of which are from Florida [18].
This link talks about voting machine shortages to some extent, in that the people responsible admit there were problems: http://www.motherjones.com/arts/books/2005/11/recounting_ohio-3.html Beyond shortages, however, the article doesnt support the text of this section. Bonewah ( talk) 20:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
This link talks about voting machine shortages and black precincts, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article502303.ece and their is an abstract talking in greater detail here http://www.aaas.org/spp/sfrl/voting_project/2006/WalterMebaneEW.shtml so between the 2 a rewrite should be possible. Bonewah ( talk) 21:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
First, i feel this section contains mostly unsourced speculation such as
This could be because Democrats were targeted
and
But most expectations were for him to make up several thousand votes, since the majority of provisional ballots might have been in certain Dem-heavy precincts in those counties
Second, the only source here is dkosopedia.com and just contains a breakdown of provisional ballots. I dont think dkosopedia.com is reliable and even if it is, it doesnt support the text of this section. Id like to remove this whole section Bonewah ( talk) 02:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
As descussed below, im going to revert to the last edit i made. The charts that were removed are from a suspicious source, are not peer reviewed and dont meet the standards of a wiki refrence. The claims about HAVA sec 302 are incorrect. Including a press release from a lawsuit that was dismissed is pointless. Bonewah ( talk) 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
2) The individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional
ballot at that polling place upon the execution of a written
affirmation by the individual before an election official at the
polling place stating that the individual is--
(A) a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which
the individual desires to vote;
(4) If the appropriate State or local election official to whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under State law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law."
requires that these votes be counted. I do not see how this can be made any more simple or any more plain. Kevin Baas talk 16:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
At bottom, this is a case of statutory interpretation. Does the Help America Vote Act require that all states count votes (at least for most federal elections) cast by provisional ballot as legal votes, even if cast in a precinct in which the voter does not reside, so long as they are cast within a “jurisdiction” that may be as large as a city or county of millions of citizens? We hold that neither the statutory text or structure, the legislative history, nor the understanding, until now, of those concerned with voting procedures compels or even permits that conclusion. Thus, although we affirm many of the rulings of the district court and its proper orders requiring compliance with HAVA’s requirements for the casting of provisional ballots, we hold that ballots cast in a precinct where the voter does not reside and which would be invalid under state law for that reason are not required by HAVA to be considered legal votes.
To hold otherwise would interpret Congress’s reasonably clear procedural language to mean that political parties would now be authorized to marshal their supporters at the last minute from shopping centers, office buildings, or factories, and urge them to vote at whatever polling place happened to be handy, all in an effort to turn out every last vote regardless of state law and historical practice. We do not believe that Congress quietly worked such a revolution in America’s voting procedures, and we will not order it.
this is from the decision linked in the main article Bonewah ( talk) 20:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)