![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This aricle is very unwiedly. There may be a lot of important information in it but not everything needs to be included, as anything can be posted in another location linked to the page. You guys definitely need to consolodate or split or whatever can make this article appropriately concise. I say this as someone who wants good digestable information about the election problems. Please, this is a big mess. ~
I think we should split, or be prepared to split, the in the news and future investiations info into a true election irregularity breaking news/fraud investigation/arrests article. When the House Judiciary committee hearing starts next wednesday things could start hitting the fan very rapidly. The current article would be too unweildy to handle in such a situation and too daunting for new people to parse. This new ", official irregulations investigations" article (we can come up with a better title) perhaps should only report on official election fraud investigations and include brief explanations of the investigation evidence but with links of course to all the other election controversy articles. The key point to the article would be to keep the most recent information at the top, keeping everyone up to date. What do people think? Zen Master 23:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am ok if the NPOV header stays, it's really not a big deal, it may restrain some vandals (on both sides_ from making impuslive edits when they know we've already flagged this article as a controversial/disputed subject. However, when the VfD header had beeon there for exactly 5 days in a few hours I expect a speedy removal of that one. zen master 02:39, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
An accurate header may reassure some, and deter hasty misguided editing. FT2 10:20, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
The tag has not being "arbitrarily" assigned. The article, per the guidelines on the NPOV policy, can easily be shown to have POV problems simply from the fact that there are major complaints, as expressed in the VfD. Another obvious indication is that even though you ask for input, when it is given, people like User:Kevin baas respond by attacking another editor's intelligence instead of responding to the issue and others completely ignore other comments pointing out the bias. The chart at the top is biased in that it is made in such a way to indicate that these "problems" (which should be worded "alleged problems" to meet NPOV) were critical and had a huge impact, when running the numbers shows that even if every single allegation were true and ended up with a vote being taken from Kerry unfairly and given to Bush, the results of the election still would have been exactly the same. The length of the article (with daily "news" updates... this isn;t a blog, people, it's supposed to be an article) is way too long and needs to be condensed. Even the title of the article is biased. This article is a complete mess. Since the NPOV was added by myself as a result of the VfD last week, the article has not been improved in anyway. I'd take the time to make edits myself, but it seems clear from reactions on the discussion page and the history of the article that if I attempt to do so, the changes will just be reverted anyway. Those of you complaining that the NPOV tag should be taken off either need to make a good faith effort to improve the article in response to the frequent complaints or you need to agree to step away from it and let other people take a stab at it for a while without having to worry that a team of you will just undo all of it again right away. DreamGuy 13:42, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
One factor that's causing the bloat in this article is the newsfeed aspect. This overemphasis on an extremely detailed chronology is most evident in the "In the news" section but shows up elsewhere as well. For example, the current content under 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy and irregularities#Green Party includes a long chronology. I suggest that everything in "In the news", plus similar material elsewhere (like the Green Party chronology), should be moved to U.S. presidential election, 2004 timeline, which is the appropriate place for the day-by-day stuff. This article should summarize the key information. The summary would have to be updated as events occur, of course, but that doesn't mean using a chronological format. For example, with regard to the Volusia County lawsuit, whatever article reaches that level of detail (if any does) should just present the status: "A lawsuit that sought to overturn the results in Volusia County, Florida was dismissed as having been untimely filed." As it is, a reader who wants to know about that subject finds the suit mentioned in the separate chronology under "Blackboxvoting.ORG", then much later finds it mentioned again in the "In the news" listing for November 24, then finds the dismissal mentioned in the "In the news" listing for December 5. If this suit is worth reporting, which I'm inclined to doubt, then the information about it shouldn't be fragmented that way. JamesMLane 19:46, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
internal, reductive
internal, constructive
external
qualitative
I've thought about a news article too. I know, "one more bloody page". But the news articles relate to all of the pages really. What about putting the news section on Wikinews though, with a permanent link from the articles to it for readers of wikipedia to catch their daily updates? Would that make sense? FT2 21:29, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
Link: http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html
Description: White House-linked clandestine operation paid for "vote switching" software
Discussion
This one's a whopper... can anyone find the original affidavit or is this just BS? -- kizzle 23:37, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
Its already in the journal. Madsen is generally not taken seriously by some sources but the story is. Its being investigated. Watch blackboxvoting for updates on this one. meantime its already in the pages with appropriate caveats as to potential question of trustworthiness and supportive views. Dont sweat over it, it would be nice but dont hold your breath, theres other activity too.
FT2 04:38, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
Did you spot this gem of unlikeliness...?
Clue - VB5 for unix would be possibly the single LAST thing anyone would program in, its almost impossible to find a LESS suitable means.
Please list general article comments, clean up possibilities and/or POV problems with the article here. The cleanup header is woefully inappropriate in my opinion, especially considering the fact there are few open talk page discussions and the article just overwhelmingly survived VfD with a vote of keep (was not a vote to keep only if cleaned up). zen master 06:41, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, I think this article is great, and I've fought to keep it. So please don't attack me for asking questions! Anyway here they are:
"The 2004 election brought new attention to these issues. In particular, many critics of electronic voting machines pointed to widespread discrepancies between exit polls conducted during Election Day and the officially reported results. They argued that the official results were more favorable to Bush than were the polls, and that these discrepancies were more likely to arise where electronic voting machines were in use and/or in swing states. They concluded that the exit polls showing a Kerry victory were probably correct and that the official totals from the machines were wrong. Expert opinion was divided concerning what implications should be drawn from the cited discrepancies."
Can someone please delete this page? It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to even have wikipedia.org in my bookmarks, while this page is here. I can see how one or two pinkos couldn't handle the outcome of the election, but there is no excuse for an encyclopedia embarrassing itself this way. Not to mention all those blurbs in Current Events that no other respectable news source gives any attention to (irrespective of political orientation).
Lets see. In a few posts we have:
I guess you didnt read WP:NPA yet. That's okay, but its noted. FT2 01:22, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
News
(copied from above)
The news articles relate to all of the pages really. To keep the main article tight, what about moving the news section on Wikinews, with a permanent link from the articles to it for readers of wikipedia to catch their daily updates? Would that make sense? Or a page on its own? FT2 06:24, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
Cleaning up talk page. If anyone else wants to help clean this page up, feel free. Either move sectins to daughter pages or to archive, preferably the former.
Also, FWIW, the main discussion topic right now is what to do regarding in the news, the talk page section being titled something like "day-by-day chronology...". Kevin Baas | talk 19:00, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
Cliff Arnebeck brough his case before ohio supreme court today, but i can't find an article specific enough. All I got are these two: [1] [2] Kevin Baas | talk 20:22, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
We really need a topical chronology for this stuff. I think that should be the priority right now. A lot of significant stuff has happened and is going on that people need to read the news articles to get any clear idea of, including:
I really think these need write-ups in the article. A new section, "Chronology", until a better title can be found or solution worked out? Kevin Baas | talk 21:44, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
A radical keeps removing this from ongoing events. Kevin Baas | talk 23:28, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
News of recount fraud called "superfluous" and removed form current events by Carrp. [5]
I'm on a (self-imposed) 2 revert per day per page limit, so someone else has to handle this. Kevin Baas | talk 23:58, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
There's nothing to "handle" on the current events page. I realize this is a major issue for you, Kevin Bass, but it's isn't for the vast majority of the US, let alone the world. There's a link on the current events page to a story on the electors casting their votes. This is an ongoing story and deserves to be included. The other link was superfluous and was therefore removed. Please do not add it back. Carrp 00:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The day that evidence of preparation for recount fraud is superfluous, is the day that we are royally f****d. I will not see that day. Kevin Baas | talk 00:07, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
In addition to that story being superfluous, it's also ridiculous. BreakForNews is about as credible a source as The Onion. It's a left-wing conspiracy theory site that should not be included as a serious source. The "evidence" is the hearsay of one anonymous informant. Perhaps this is why the mainstream media isn't interested in the story. Carrp 00:17, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
that's enough for now. Kevin Baas | talk 00:29, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
Maybe when I'm senile I'll understand. Kevin Baas | talk 00:44, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
possibly sections 1-12, and 14-21 can go? Kevin Baas | talk 23:46, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
With time many if not most of this article's links to external sources will break (sometimes due to a reorganization of the external web site, but often because the external articles are deleted). I know that there are copyright issues involved, but is there any way we could archive this external information so that the main article does not become gradually useless as its sources become unverifiable? noosphere 10:00, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
To save source articles that this page links to, use archiverProxy, at http://logicerror.com/archiverProxy . It is a proxy that you run on your local machine, which then archives every web page (and all versions of that webpage, time-stamped) you view, saved into a local archive which can be later viewed. The script may have a few bugs; test thoroughly before depending on it. Under Linux, I had to make some minor changes to get it to work; it may work as-is under Windows.
User:Carrp has been listed on WP:RFC here. Kevin Baas | talk 21:01, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
This article is in dire need of a cleanup. I'll list the major problems for now:
I understand that it will take some time to get this article in shape, but the time to begin is now. Carrp 23:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Excellent source!: [6] Kevin Baas | talk 04:23, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)
Excellent, comprehensive source with data on fraud by numerous means, specific examples:
Also, someone posted this detailed list/issue summary at DU:
-- RyanFreisling @ 06:05, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Watch the POV Carrp. I, as the others, appreciate your efforts in cleaning up the article. However, ommitign things like "votes for kerry were registered as votes for bush", and adding "allegedly" to the statement about diebold knowing about the machines counting backwards for at least two years, when diebold has fully admitted that they knew and there is hard documentary evidence, and other such edits, are, and I hope you can see this - slanting to misrepresent the credibility and the severity of the irregularities, which by any measure cannot be considered NPOV. Kevin Baas | talk 21:07, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)
I'm sure there were also cases (reported or not) where Bush votes were registered as Kerry votes. The whole point of the voting machine section is to show that they are currently not very secure or reliable. Perhaps it can be restated as "The voting machines have, at times, registered votes for the wrong candidate." As for the issue of adding "allegedly", it originally said "...manufacturer ES&S are said to have known about (but not rectified) this issue for two years..." The link was broken and it sounded very much like it was alleged, not proven, that ES&S knew of this issue. Please edit this sentence if this is not the case. Carrp 21:18, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Looks like we got a lot of catch-up work.
Read about litigation in Ohio here and here.
maybe this section warrants a daughter-article, so we can make this article smaller?
Carrp, some good edits today - but one issue caught my eye. You removed a very significant portion of the voting machines stuff (see the diff) - if it's because the source was 'commondreams' (a 'left-wing' website), removing it was too draconian. The examples raised have been corroborated in numerous sources, and exist throughout the article(s) themselves. And an outright removal of the content removed a good part of the value that section. Can we discuss these things on 'talk', so the article's hard-researched conclusions don't simply evaporate based on one editor's assessment of the 'validity' of the source? Thanks. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:36, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the reason I deleted some of the section wasn't because I felt it was inaccurate or worthless but because it is already discussed in great depth on the specific voting machine sub-page. This article needs extensive pruning and it makes sense to have the main page discuss the major points while leaving the specifics to the sub-pages. A section that's too long can harm the value just as much as one that's too short. Carrp 00:54, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've left this article alone deliberately for a few days, to think about it and get some perspective. I think a look from 1st principles matters, if this article is to come under better quality and closer compliance to wiki standards.
When this article started, the subject was murky, undocumented. There had been no investigations, no affidavits, no media coverage except a large number of odd reports that together suggested there were "irregularities". In that climate, it was important to document everything, because the only rebuttal of claims of sore losership was to nail down the facts. There were irregularities, there was evidence, it was of wide interest, it did cover many interlocking areas. To an extent, it still is controversial of course, but I think now it's safe to say we are well past those days. The matter is now documented in more legal ways, more formal ways. Those interested are now political coallitions, house committees, and investigatory organisations.
Whilst everything in the article is accurate and valid as far as it goes, I would like to propose a complete reworking project on the side, of what needs to be said with regard to the entire election controversy situation, covering all 6 articles.
The aim of this will be:
I would invite anyone interested to contribute to this review, those who have worked on this page and its connected articles and added so much, and those who watched in dismay as it grew. And especially, those who feel doubts in certain areas, perhaps we can find a way to address those to, if they are concisely stated.
The link for the review page is here TO BE ADDED, and once a draft framework is set up, I'll add the link. Note that I am setting it up in my user space, but that doesn't mean I consider myself to "own" it. Its just a place we can thoroughly review this article and its fellows from scratch, what belongs, what doesn't, without everyday talk issues intruding. FT2 01:16, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
What should be in the see also section?
Should we make a template for the see also section, to be used on parent and daughter articles?
Should we make a sidebar navigation?
Should we make a category for us presidential election, 2004, controversy?
Kevin Baas talk 22:43, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)
Things are moving too slowly. I'm ready to just make an article " 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy, in the news" article. Can I get some consent/dissent first? Kevin Baas talk 19:34, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Yay.
Nay.
I'm also ready, at that point to make a category called "U.S. presidential election, 2004, controversy" to be a sub-cat of "U.S. presidential election, 2004". Kevin Baas talk 19:34, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Yay.
Nay.
Done. Category is "2004 U.S. presidential election controversy and irregularities". Feel free to check it out and discuss includes/excludes. Kevin Baas talk 20:42, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Three more vote topics: Kevin Baas talk 20:42, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Should a template be created for the see also section of this article and daugther articles? (this would save trouble synchronizing them)
Yay.
Nay.
Given the category created, can we be more lax on article count, such that we can create a 2004 ohio recount page to complement the moss v. bush page (and seeing also that this is a relatively big thing in the news)?
Yay.
Nay.
Should a new article be created for officials views, investigations, legal actions, etc., including recounts and contests, called something like "remedies", and summarized herein, as was done with voting machines, exit polls, vote suppression?
Yay.
Nay.
As much as I am confident there was massive fraud, and as much as I would like as much as possible to in some form be discovered so that something can be done about it, being a computer tech myself...
From what I've read, the computer in question is an old PC, like the one in front of you right now, but older. There's nothing special about it. You cannot modify the data on the computer by dismantling it. You can't even access the data. You can take the hard drive out and put it in another computer, but you have to turn that computer on and access the data through software. Data must be accessed through software.
What can be done with dismantling a PC and messing with the hardware: you can change the video card, soundcard, lan card, etc. You can change out disk drives, at best, but see above.
Now from what I've read, he replaced the "battery", which was dead, (not uncommon for computers that are old) and entered some info into the computer. There is only one "battery" in a PC, and that's the "CMOS" battery. It stores information about the hardware setup of the computer so that it can boot and access the hardware properly. It provides power to memory that stores: processor speed, memory type and quantity, AGP or PCI video, what disk drives are in the system, boot order (what drive to boot first, CD-ROM, floppy, hard drive), and stuff like that. It does not access data or software on the harddrive. it does not touch the hard drive. you dont' need a hard drive in your computer to get to the BIOS (Basic Input-Output Service) setup, where you set these things. On most computers, you just press F2 or DEL while your computer's booting. It will usually say "Press [key] to enter setup."
Since the battery was dead, the setup information was lost, and could not be preserved, so the computer wouldn't boot properly. So he had to replace the battery. It's a little circular wafer about the size of a quarter. Then he had to put the information in the BIOS setup such as processor speed, hard drive capacity, etc.
That seems to be, at least, the official story, and it's plausible and makes sense. Now that he was unattended? Well, one can only guess. Kevin Baas talk 01:37, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)
"Kerry's results were deliberately withheld in order to create the illusion that he was actually losing. While Bush's results came in thick and fast, Kerry's came in painfully slowly. Listening to the CBC's (Canadian Broadcasting Commission) election coverage, I found that Kerry was stuck for a long time on 112 electoral college votes while Bush's total continued to rise. After what seemed an inordinately long time, Kerry's figures rose to 188, but only after Bush had gone to 200. Kerry then stayed on 188 while Bush climbed to 204, then 210, then 238! At no stage were results released in an order that would lend the least credibility to the idea of a Kerry victory. While Democrats agonized over the strategic delays, the Republicans turned on miracles in two states which at best looked like being extremely close, Florida and Ohio. In the case of Florida, the results from the most heavily Democratic counties came in last. By reporting only the results for the other counties, the illusion was created of a pro-Bush trend."
Sounds fair to me - I don't object either. FT2 10:36, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
I think there should be a section about how this controversy is manifest in events surrounding the electoral college, such as the protests and the contests. Kevin Baas talk 19:42, 2004 Dec 31 (UTC)
Kevin Baas talk 17:48, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)
I think the objection and the debate merit a section in the article. Perhaps under recounts and suits? Anyone want to initiate this? Kevin Baas talk 17:12, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
Ryan, do you think that content you just added could go under the new section i created in the recounts and election contests section? Kevin Baas talk 22:17, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This aricle is very unwiedly. There may be a lot of important information in it but not everything needs to be included, as anything can be posted in another location linked to the page. You guys definitely need to consolodate or split or whatever can make this article appropriately concise. I say this as someone who wants good digestable information about the election problems. Please, this is a big mess. ~
I think we should split, or be prepared to split, the in the news and future investiations info into a true election irregularity breaking news/fraud investigation/arrests article. When the House Judiciary committee hearing starts next wednesday things could start hitting the fan very rapidly. The current article would be too unweildy to handle in such a situation and too daunting for new people to parse. This new ", official irregulations investigations" article (we can come up with a better title) perhaps should only report on official election fraud investigations and include brief explanations of the investigation evidence but with links of course to all the other election controversy articles. The key point to the article would be to keep the most recent information at the top, keeping everyone up to date. What do people think? Zen Master 23:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am ok if the NPOV header stays, it's really not a big deal, it may restrain some vandals (on both sides_ from making impuslive edits when they know we've already flagged this article as a controversial/disputed subject. However, when the VfD header had beeon there for exactly 5 days in a few hours I expect a speedy removal of that one. zen master 02:39, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
An accurate header may reassure some, and deter hasty misguided editing. FT2 10:20, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
The tag has not being "arbitrarily" assigned. The article, per the guidelines on the NPOV policy, can easily be shown to have POV problems simply from the fact that there are major complaints, as expressed in the VfD. Another obvious indication is that even though you ask for input, when it is given, people like User:Kevin baas respond by attacking another editor's intelligence instead of responding to the issue and others completely ignore other comments pointing out the bias. The chart at the top is biased in that it is made in such a way to indicate that these "problems" (which should be worded "alleged problems" to meet NPOV) were critical and had a huge impact, when running the numbers shows that even if every single allegation were true and ended up with a vote being taken from Kerry unfairly and given to Bush, the results of the election still would have been exactly the same. The length of the article (with daily "news" updates... this isn;t a blog, people, it's supposed to be an article) is way too long and needs to be condensed. Even the title of the article is biased. This article is a complete mess. Since the NPOV was added by myself as a result of the VfD last week, the article has not been improved in anyway. I'd take the time to make edits myself, but it seems clear from reactions on the discussion page and the history of the article that if I attempt to do so, the changes will just be reverted anyway. Those of you complaining that the NPOV tag should be taken off either need to make a good faith effort to improve the article in response to the frequent complaints or you need to agree to step away from it and let other people take a stab at it for a while without having to worry that a team of you will just undo all of it again right away. DreamGuy 13:42, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
One factor that's causing the bloat in this article is the newsfeed aspect. This overemphasis on an extremely detailed chronology is most evident in the "In the news" section but shows up elsewhere as well. For example, the current content under 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy and irregularities#Green Party includes a long chronology. I suggest that everything in "In the news", plus similar material elsewhere (like the Green Party chronology), should be moved to U.S. presidential election, 2004 timeline, which is the appropriate place for the day-by-day stuff. This article should summarize the key information. The summary would have to be updated as events occur, of course, but that doesn't mean using a chronological format. For example, with regard to the Volusia County lawsuit, whatever article reaches that level of detail (if any does) should just present the status: "A lawsuit that sought to overturn the results in Volusia County, Florida was dismissed as having been untimely filed." As it is, a reader who wants to know about that subject finds the suit mentioned in the separate chronology under "Blackboxvoting.ORG", then much later finds it mentioned again in the "In the news" listing for November 24, then finds the dismissal mentioned in the "In the news" listing for December 5. If this suit is worth reporting, which I'm inclined to doubt, then the information about it shouldn't be fragmented that way. JamesMLane 19:46, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
internal, reductive
internal, constructive
external
qualitative
I've thought about a news article too. I know, "one more bloody page". But the news articles relate to all of the pages really. What about putting the news section on Wikinews though, with a permanent link from the articles to it for readers of wikipedia to catch their daily updates? Would that make sense? FT2 21:29, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
Link: http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html
Description: White House-linked clandestine operation paid for "vote switching" software
Discussion
This one's a whopper... can anyone find the original affidavit or is this just BS? -- kizzle 23:37, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
Its already in the journal. Madsen is generally not taken seriously by some sources but the story is. Its being investigated. Watch blackboxvoting for updates on this one. meantime its already in the pages with appropriate caveats as to potential question of trustworthiness and supportive views. Dont sweat over it, it would be nice but dont hold your breath, theres other activity too.
FT2 04:38, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
Did you spot this gem of unlikeliness...?
Clue - VB5 for unix would be possibly the single LAST thing anyone would program in, its almost impossible to find a LESS suitable means.
Please list general article comments, clean up possibilities and/or POV problems with the article here. The cleanup header is woefully inappropriate in my opinion, especially considering the fact there are few open talk page discussions and the article just overwhelmingly survived VfD with a vote of keep (was not a vote to keep only if cleaned up). zen master 06:41, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, I think this article is great, and I've fought to keep it. So please don't attack me for asking questions! Anyway here they are:
"The 2004 election brought new attention to these issues. In particular, many critics of electronic voting machines pointed to widespread discrepancies between exit polls conducted during Election Day and the officially reported results. They argued that the official results were more favorable to Bush than were the polls, and that these discrepancies were more likely to arise where electronic voting machines were in use and/or in swing states. They concluded that the exit polls showing a Kerry victory were probably correct and that the official totals from the machines were wrong. Expert opinion was divided concerning what implications should be drawn from the cited discrepancies."
Can someone please delete this page? It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to even have wikipedia.org in my bookmarks, while this page is here. I can see how one or two pinkos couldn't handle the outcome of the election, but there is no excuse for an encyclopedia embarrassing itself this way. Not to mention all those blurbs in Current Events that no other respectable news source gives any attention to (irrespective of political orientation).
Lets see. In a few posts we have:
I guess you didnt read WP:NPA yet. That's okay, but its noted. FT2 01:22, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
News
(copied from above)
The news articles relate to all of the pages really. To keep the main article tight, what about moving the news section on Wikinews, with a permanent link from the articles to it for readers of wikipedia to catch their daily updates? Would that make sense? Or a page on its own? FT2 06:24, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
Cleaning up talk page. If anyone else wants to help clean this page up, feel free. Either move sectins to daughter pages or to archive, preferably the former.
Also, FWIW, the main discussion topic right now is what to do regarding in the news, the talk page section being titled something like "day-by-day chronology...". Kevin Baas | talk 19:00, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
Cliff Arnebeck brough his case before ohio supreme court today, but i can't find an article specific enough. All I got are these two: [1] [2] Kevin Baas | talk 20:22, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
We really need a topical chronology for this stuff. I think that should be the priority right now. A lot of significant stuff has happened and is going on that people need to read the news articles to get any clear idea of, including:
I really think these need write-ups in the article. A new section, "Chronology", until a better title can be found or solution worked out? Kevin Baas | talk 21:44, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
A radical keeps removing this from ongoing events. Kevin Baas | talk 23:28, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
News of recount fraud called "superfluous" and removed form current events by Carrp. [5]
I'm on a (self-imposed) 2 revert per day per page limit, so someone else has to handle this. Kevin Baas | talk 23:58, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
There's nothing to "handle" on the current events page. I realize this is a major issue for you, Kevin Bass, but it's isn't for the vast majority of the US, let alone the world. There's a link on the current events page to a story on the electors casting their votes. This is an ongoing story and deserves to be included. The other link was superfluous and was therefore removed. Please do not add it back. Carrp 00:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The day that evidence of preparation for recount fraud is superfluous, is the day that we are royally f****d. I will not see that day. Kevin Baas | talk 00:07, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
In addition to that story being superfluous, it's also ridiculous. BreakForNews is about as credible a source as The Onion. It's a left-wing conspiracy theory site that should not be included as a serious source. The "evidence" is the hearsay of one anonymous informant. Perhaps this is why the mainstream media isn't interested in the story. Carrp 00:17, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
that's enough for now. Kevin Baas | talk 00:29, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
Maybe when I'm senile I'll understand. Kevin Baas | talk 00:44, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
possibly sections 1-12, and 14-21 can go? Kevin Baas | talk 23:46, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
With time many if not most of this article's links to external sources will break (sometimes due to a reorganization of the external web site, but often because the external articles are deleted). I know that there are copyright issues involved, but is there any way we could archive this external information so that the main article does not become gradually useless as its sources become unverifiable? noosphere 10:00, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
To save source articles that this page links to, use archiverProxy, at http://logicerror.com/archiverProxy . It is a proxy that you run on your local machine, which then archives every web page (and all versions of that webpage, time-stamped) you view, saved into a local archive which can be later viewed. The script may have a few bugs; test thoroughly before depending on it. Under Linux, I had to make some minor changes to get it to work; it may work as-is under Windows.
User:Carrp has been listed on WP:RFC here. Kevin Baas | talk 21:01, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
This article is in dire need of a cleanup. I'll list the major problems for now:
I understand that it will take some time to get this article in shape, but the time to begin is now. Carrp 23:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Excellent source!: [6] Kevin Baas | talk 04:23, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)
Excellent, comprehensive source with data on fraud by numerous means, specific examples:
Also, someone posted this detailed list/issue summary at DU:
-- RyanFreisling @ 06:05, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Watch the POV Carrp. I, as the others, appreciate your efforts in cleaning up the article. However, ommitign things like "votes for kerry were registered as votes for bush", and adding "allegedly" to the statement about diebold knowing about the machines counting backwards for at least two years, when diebold has fully admitted that they knew and there is hard documentary evidence, and other such edits, are, and I hope you can see this - slanting to misrepresent the credibility and the severity of the irregularities, which by any measure cannot be considered NPOV. Kevin Baas | talk 21:07, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)
I'm sure there were also cases (reported or not) where Bush votes were registered as Kerry votes. The whole point of the voting machine section is to show that they are currently not very secure or reliable. Perhaps it can be restated as "The voting machines have, at times, registered votes for the wrong candidate." As for the issue of adding "allegedly", it originally said "...manufacturer ES&S are said to have known about (but not rectified) this issue for two years..." The link was broken and it sounded very much like it was alleged, not proven, that ES&S knew of this issue. Please edit this sentence if this is not the case. Carrp 21:18, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Looks like we got a lot of catch-up work.
Read about litigation in Ohio here and here.
maybe this section warrants a daughter-article, so we can make this article smaller?
Carrp, some good edits today - but one issue caught my eye. You removed a very significant portion of the voting machines stuff (see the diff) - if it's because the source was 'commondreams' (a 'left-wing' website), removing it was too draconian. The examples raised have been corroborated in numerous sources, and exist throughout the article(s) themselves. And an outright removal of the content removed a good part of the value that section. Can we discuss these things on 'talk', so the article's hard-researched conclusions don't simply evaporate based on one editor's assessment of the 'validity' of the source? Thanks. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:36, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the reason I deleted some of the section wasn't because I felt it was inaccurate or worthless but because it is already discussed in great depth on the specific voting machine sub-page. This article needs extensive pruning and it makes sense to have the main page discuss the major points while leaving the specifics to the sub-pages. A section that's too long can harm the value just as much as one that's too short. Carrp 00:54, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've left this article alone deliberately for a few days, to think about it and get some perspective. I think a look from 1st principles matters, if this article is to come under better quality and closer compliance to wiki standards.
When this article started, the subject was murky, undocumented. There had been no investigations, no affidavits, no media coverage except a large number of odd reports that together suggested there were "irregularities". In that climate, it was important to document everything, because the only rebuttal of claims of sore losership was to nail down the facts. There were irregularities, there was evidence, it was of wide interest, it did cover many interlocking areas. To an extent, it still is controversial of course, but I think now it's safe to say we are well past those days. The matter is now documented in more legal ways, more formal ways. Those interested are now political coallitions, house committees, and investigatory organisations.
Whilst everything in the article is accurate and valid as far as it goes, I would like to propose a complete reworking project on the side, of what needs to be said with regard to the entire election controversy situation, covering all 6 articles.
The aim of this will be:
I would invite anyone interested to contribute to this review, those who have worked on this page and its connected articles and added so much, and those who watched in dismay as it grew. And especially, those who feel doubts in certain areas, perhaps we can find a way to address those to, if they are concisely stated.
The link for the review page is here TO BE ADDED, and once a draft framework is set up, I'll add the link. Note that I am setting it up in my user space, but that doesn't mean I consider myself to "own" it. Its just a place we can thoroughly review this article and its fellows from scratch, what belongs, what doesn't, without everyday talk issues intruding. FT2 01:16, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
What should be in the see also section?
Should we make a template for the see also section, to be used on parent and daughter articles?
Should we make a sidebar navigation?
Should we make a category for us presidential election, 2004, controversy?
Kevin Baas talk 22:43, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)
Things are moving too slowly. I'm ready to just make an article " 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy, in the news" article. Can I get some consent/dissent first? Kevin Baas talk 19:34, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Yay.
Nay.
I'm also ready, at that point to make a category called "U.S. presidential election, 2004, controversy" to be a sub-cat of "U.S. presidential election, 2004". Kevin Baas talk 19:34, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Yay.
Nay.
Done. Category is "2004 U.S. presidential election controversy and irregularities". Feel free to check it out and discuss includes/excludes. Kevin Baas talk 20:42, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Three more vote topics: Kevin Baas talk 20:42, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
Should a template be created for the see also section of this article and daugther articles? (this would save trouble synchronizing them)
Yay.
Nay.
Given the category created, can we be more lax on article count, such that we can create a 2004 ohio recount page to complement the moss v. bush page (and seeing also that this is a relatively big thing in the news)?
Yay.
Nay.
Should a new article be created for officials views, investigations, legal actions, etc., including recounts and contests, called something like "remedies", and summarized herein, as was done with voting machines, exit polls, vote suppression?
Yay.
Nay.
As much as I am confident there was massive fraud, and as much as I would like as much as possible to in some form be discovered so that something can be done about it, being a computer tech myself...
From what I've read, the computer in question is an old PC, like the one in front of you right now, but older. There's nothing special about it. You cannot modify the data on the computer by dismantling it. You can't even access the data. You can take the hard drive out and put it in another computer, but you have to turn that computer on and access the data through software. Data must be accessed through software.
What can be done with dismantling a PC and messing with the hardware: you can change the video card, soundcard, lan card, etc. You can change out disk drives, at best, but see above.
Now from what I've read, he replaced the "battery", which was dead, (not uncommon for computers that are old) and entered some info into the computer. There is only one "battery" in a PC, and that's the "CMOS" battery. It stores information about the hardware setup of the computer so that it can boot and access the hardware properly. It provides power to memory that stores: processor speed, memory type and quantity, AGP or PCI video, what disk drives are in the system, boot order (what drive to boot first, CD-ROM, floppy, hard drive), and stuff like that. It does not access data or software on the harddrive. it does not touch the hard drive. you dont' need a hard drive in your computer to get to the BIOS (Basic Input-Output Service) setup, where you set these things. On most computers, you just press F2 or DEL while your computer's booting. It will usually say "Press [key] to enter setup."
Since the battery was dead, the setup information was lost, and could not be preserved, so the computer wouldn't boot properly. So he had to replace the battery. It's a little circular wafer about the size of a quarter. Then he had to put the information in the BIOS setup such as processor speed, hard drive capacity, etc.
That seems to be, at least, the official story, and it's plausible and makes sense. Now that he was unattended? Well, one can only guess. Kevin Baas talk 01:37, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)
"Kerry's results were deliberately withheld in order to create the illusion that he was actually losing. While Bush's results came in thick and fast, Kerry's came in painfully slowly. Listening to the CBC's (Canadian Broadcasting Commission) election coverage, I found that Kerry was stuck for a long time on 112 electoral college votes while Bush's total continued to rise. After what seemed an inordinately long time, Kerry's figures rose to 188, but only after Bush had gone to 200. Kerry then stayed on 188 while Bush climbed to 204, then 210, then 238! At no stage were results released in an order that would lend the least credibility to the idea of a Kerry victory. While Democrats agonized over the strategic delays, the Republicans turned on miracles in two states which at best looked like being extremely close, Florida and Ohio. In the case of Florida, the results from the most heavily Democratic counties came in last. By reporting only the results for the other counties, the illusion was created of a pro-Bush trend."
Sounds fair to me - I don't object either. FT2 10:36, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
I think there should be a section about how this controversy is manifest in events surrounding the electoral college, such as the protests and the contests. Kevin Baas talk 19:42, 2004 Dec 31 (UTC)
Kevin Baas talk 17:48, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)
I think the objection and the debate merit a section in the article. Perhaps under recounts and suits? Anyone want to initiate this? Kevin Baas talk 17:12, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
Ryan, do you think that content you just added could go under the new section i created in the recounts and election contests section? Kevin Baas talk 22:17, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)