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I noticed this was mentioned above, but it really deserves a section. I created the images for it in Flash 5. (i.e. i have them in vector graphics format) If anyone wants the .fla's or any thing that flash exports, i can email them. Checking out the exit polls here: [1] (which unfortunately one has to do some math to get an estimate on bush-kerry votes) I noticed that the sample size for ohio was 2,020; for florida was 2,862; and for new hampshire was 1,883. Those should give a pretty accurate prediction. Without even doing the math I can tell that these discrepancies are way outside the margin of error. Less than 14,000 people were polled in the U.S., so assuming equal population distribution, we should expect these to be some of the most accurate polls. But what are the populations? We should gather sample size data, population data, poll data, so we can make statistical maps. Kevin Baas | talk 00:23, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
Perhaps have section that study particular states, such as Florida, Ohio, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvannia? And speaking of Florida, how do we put this into the article?: [2] Kevin Baas | talk 00:52, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
I am hugely supportive of that idea KB, I think even if lets say Diebold or Op-scan occurs in multiple states, the evidence we need to build will still be dependent upon calculating on a per-county basis of expected/registered voters versus actual votes and compare them to distribution of e-voting machines and types. -- kizzle 01:24, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Sure sounds like kizzle wants to do original research. No POV there of course. 216.153.214.94 03:12, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
combining research done by others into one central article is not original research. I'm not going to Florida door-by-door and asking if they registered to vote. Hence the multiple citations on this page. -- kizzle 03:44, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, state by state would be useful, but only insofar as it wouldn't just be a regurgitation of other more general information. If there is genuinely specific information about a satte that's not part of the more general article then that would be a good way to do it. (And maybe if the maps get too big, a section for "maps related to voting issues" too?) FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Sure, if someone else has done a case study. If you're doing a case study, Wikipedia is not a venue to publish your original research. -- Delirium 11:31, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
Why is there no discussion of Democratic attempts to abuse the system? Examples are numerous and rampant, yet no mention?
If you have cited evidence please contribute :) -- kizzle 06:31, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Actually, "Democratic Abuse" is a very important part of this story and should be covered. A crucial part of the ground game was for the Republican campaign to make as much noise about supposed Democratic abuse, preemtively, in an attempt to ambiguate the issue in the public eye. However, the second after Kerry conceeded the noise stopped. For more information check out | Act Two from last weeks "This American Life" on NPR. Morgan Patrick
Wow. I used to think Wikipedia was a place to come and get valuable verifiable information. Now I realize that anyone...even myself can simply type up some drivel and pass if off as the truth. Here is an interesting article from today's Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/10/internet_buzz_on_vote_fraud_is_dismissed/ No one would be more interested than me in finding out that we really won, but that ain't the case," said Jack Corrigan, a veteran Kerry adviser who led the Democrats' team of 3,600 attorneys who fanned out across the country on Election Day to address voting irregularities.
I get why people are frustrated, but they did not steal this election," Corrigan said. There were a few problems here and there in the election. But unlike 2000, there is no doubt that they actually got more votes than we did, and they got them in the states that mattered.
How about this group ACORN and it's less than honest voter registration drive? ..the kid in Ohio that was paid crack cocaine by the NAACP to get democrats to register? ....The extra 90K votes than voters in Cayhoga county (democrat stronghold)? The slashed tires of republican GOTV cars? The machines with votes already on them when the poll opened in PA? How about here in New York you don't get a paper reciept of your vote and Democrats have been winning here for years...nobody ever complains about that?
How about you guys in the interest of preserving our national unity and imperfect democracy just accept the results with the understanding that any endeavor of this magnitude will have some discrepencies. But there is no evidence of systematic fraud by either party.
And yes, there was even a guy who's boss, another hard-up shlub in charge of rectuiting registars, paid his guy with a nice chunk of crack.
Now: I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Cayhoga county went for bush this year. If one were alleging conspiracy you would think that would be cause for the concerns raised in this article... except it turns out that story about more votes than voters was false. See that's kinda the point of Wikipedia, to get to the root of things. That's also the sole point of analyzing this election for the sake of future elections.
To repeat the specific talking points verbatim, and to believe the horrendously racist and absurd claim that the NAACP paid people with crack, and to add that invective into an argument about the accuracy of votes as though the two have any correlation, reveals a lot about your character, sir. Morgan Patrick
You aren't interested in getting to the truth. You're only interested in casting doubt on a legitimate election because you detest the outcome.
Here is a link to the crack for votes story curtesy of the Toledo Blade http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343 (quote)Defiance County Sheriff David Westrick said that Mr. Staton was working on behalf of a Toledo woman, Georgianne Pitts, to register new voters. She, in turn, was working on behalf of the NAACP National Voter Fund, which was formed by the NAACP in 2000 to register new voters. Sheriff Westrick said that Pitts, 41, of Toledo, admitted she gave Mr. Staton crack cocaine in lieu of cash for supplying her with completed voter registration forms.
Cuyahoga county went for Kerry 67% to 33% http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/county.000.html
I doubt you will add the info from this link to your phony encyclopedia http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=409
The first step to voting is registering to vote. The title of the article is "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities". The purpose of which appears to be exposing voter fraud. Falsifying voter registrations regardless how clever the alias would be the starting point of a particular form of fraud. Even if the phony registrants don't show up to vote their addition to the voter roles furthers the confusion, chaos and possibilities of mischief. Finally this is only an example of a glaring irregularity. Who's to say there aren't other examples of falsified registrations that would easily pass muster with stressed, over worked and underpaid poll workers. If you are looking to get to the bottom of "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities", you must consider all evidence. Not just that which supports anyone's particular position.
I have added an {{npov}} tag. It can be removed once this article is sufficiently expanded to reflect all viewpoints. For example, the article currently includes a great deal of content expounding on the viewpoint of one side with much shorter descriptions of rebuttals from the other side. Note also there is a space at the bottom of the page for the viewpoints of several groups that has not yet been completed. Once most sides' viewpoints have been added, not just in the bottom section but throughout the article, I would fully support removing the {{npov}} tag. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 07:13, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Regarding "You can't justify the NPOV tag by expressing the desire that something else be added by an unspecified someone.": If the flat Earth and spherical Earth articles presented all the claims of flat-Earthers, with no rebuttals from the other side (I am not claiming this is the current state of these two articles; I am just saying that if this were so), and you wandered by and saw the pages but were not someone familiar enough with the physics to write the justification for a round Earth yourself, I think you would still nevertheless be justified in adding an {{npov}} tag to the articles and keeping it on the articles indefinitely until someone properly qualified in the physics wrote a section answering the claims of the flat-Earthers. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 09:08, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
And this would apply in the opposite case as well, if the articles cited above completely dismissed and refused to even mention flat Earth claims. Articles that are POV should be NPOVed for all viewpoints, and if necessary, a tag should be added to prompt editors sufficiently versed in the subject to do so. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 09:11, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I think it's fine if the NPOV tag is put on the page, it will inspire additional beneficial clean ups. I disagree with them but I suppose a disagreement on scope (what the article should be about) can be considered a POV violation? I absolutely do not believe the "acts of violence" stuff belongs on the page, it's possible republicans did that to themselves to offset any expected vote machine controversy backlash. Zen Master 21:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(1) One of the section titles was changed a couple of days ago from "Voting machine companies with political ties" to "Voting machine companies with political ties to George W. Bush". Whilst at present no voting machine company has been stated or is alleged to have major political ties with Kerry, the possibility does exist. So although this is factually accurate, I'm concerned whether this new title gives the impression of POV. Votes for keeping current title or reverting to previous one? FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
(2) Source (or at least county name) needs adding for the 77% county in Florida? FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
(3) Good introductory quote found, where should it go? For now I've put it at the top.
(4) The text accompanying the maps need a couple of minor gaps filled in before it's really solid evidence:
(Also, the 3rd map has many states in grey, but there isn't a grey on the color key. Should these be white?)
(5) A lot of introduction and background information was removed for the sake of making the article more streamlined, but I'm concerned too much got removed. I've often found that in a topic like this, a section of background summary is useful. So I've provisionally edited as follows:
These are provisional only - can we briefly discuss and get different views before any editing? FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 216.153.214.94's additions of acts of violence should be part of this page, since their implications fall under the idea of voter suppression, which is already mentioned. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 15:44, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is written poorly, doesn't really say anything, and seemingly violates NPOV. I was going to clean it up but I didn't know where to begin (I commented it out yesterday but someone undid that). I think it's incorrect to say there is substatial information in the "media" about fraud with this election, where are any citations for that claim? If anything the media have been completely silent on the issue of massive vote fraud. Any scale and significance section should address the much greater potential for fraud from voting machines, in my opinion. What was the original author of that section trying to convey? The florida discrepancies between registered democrat percentages and actual results could be in there or near there, that section could become a one level higher section heading (after being rewritten) that introduces that largest instances of potential fraud? Zen Master 18:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I like it, the only thing I'd add is an extra sentence or so, that explains due to the US electoral college system, it isn't the popular vote, but the electoral college vote which counts, and therefore in the past (ref to 2000 election) sometimes only a few hundred votes in a critical location have been enough to swing the entire national election. Therefore small discrepancies in voting as well as big ones are important, as an election fraud could be perpetrated with a few thousand votes in the right place. To my mind thats whats left missing. Comments? Agree? FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
The article devotes most of its space to possible miscounting of votes cast, but it also refers to voter suppression, some of which occurs before Election Day. It may be hard to draw lines here, but I suggest that the article should be about reasons for concern that the officially announced totals don't reflect the decisions of the people who were entitled to register and vote.
This division seems to reflect what most people understand the article to be about. Things like the Toledo break-in are "controversies" or "irregularities" but aren't what the article is about. That's why I think that the title should be something like "2004 U.S. election voting controversies". The title we eventually settle on should reflect a consensus of what's to be included and what's excluded. JamesMLane 20:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just a side note, watch countdown tonight on MSNBC with Keith Olbermann, he's going to be covering it today and tommorow. -- kizzle 20:38, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
What time? Kevin Baas | talk 20:55, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
8pm ET... not sure if its going to replayed at 8PT for west coast. -- kizzle 21:27, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I'm working on a template. Anyone want to claim responsibility for aggregating a particular type of data? Kevin Baas | talk 20:58, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
I'd love a copy of spreadsheet data as you produce it :) FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
The CNN poll, in Florida, gives bush 51%, kerry 49%, but this source gives kerry 49%, bush 51%. Was the CNN poll modified post-facto in Florida as well as Ohio? Kevin Baas | talk 19:16, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
In fact, the CNN exit polls are uncanny, so far they are all (except florida) within 1%, and i noticed there's a percentage difference in some cases with the above source. Are they all post-facto adjusted? Kevin Baas | talk 19:46, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
They must be: New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and Minnesota are within 1%. All that work! Don't use the CNN exit polls. They'll correspond exactly with the vote count because they were adjusted post-facto so as to do so. Kevin Baas | talk 20:06, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
Keith Olbermann reports "the Cincinnati Enquirer reported that officials in Warren County, Ohio, had “locked down” its administration building to prevent anybody from observing the vote count there.
Suspicious enough on the face of it, the decision got more dubious still when County Commissioners confirmed that they were acting on the advice of their Emergency Services Director, Frank Young. Mr. Young had explained that he had been advised by the federal government to implement the measures for the sake of Homeland Security.
Gotcha. Tom Ridge thought Osama Bin Laden was planning to hit Caesar Creek State Park in Waynesville."
I wanted to add this, but I'm not sure where it would go. I think the layout of the page needs to be discussed, as I feel somewhat its starting to take a feel of randomness to it. Any thoughts on whether it needs to be re-organized at all, and if so what it should look like? --
kizzle 21:29, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
A category of 2004 election issues? Surely it can be fitted into one article? Maybe with a subsidiary article for "detailed list of evidence" summarised in the main article? So we can offload stuff like dozens of maps, or dozens of incidents, to a 2nd article thats non-controversial, and keep the main article more concise? Would that work? FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
As long as this article is titled "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities", the acts of violence fall under this topic. 216.153.214.94 22:03, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not aware there was significantly more violence than previous elections, as it says under "misrepresentations" (or did till commented out), stuff like that was agreed to be excluded. FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Rex (216.153.214.94), please do not keep on adding stuff to the article when there's consent that your edits are inappopriate; rather, discuss your proposed edits here on the talk page. Thanks. -- Schnee 22:12, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In view of the fact that Kerry already surrendered the election, can anything now be done, even if criminal rigging occured? Especially in view of the fact that the "original" vote totals can't be recovered from Diebold machines? Pakaran . 22:31, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Luckily thats speculation and controversy, not related to the evidence gathering (both sides) within this article :) FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Indeed :)... FT2, you're always there to bring us back to the business at hand ;) -- kizzle 00:47, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Supposedly Kerry's brother is asking people to send evidence of fraud to him - see http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/ale04089.html Waitingtoderail
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/index.html - Judiciary democrats are starting to look into it. Can this have consensus? Or if not move it to another section, before I abuse my sysop privs and get impeached. J/K Pakaran (ark a pan) 22:29, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please feel free to modify the following post to formulate an alternative organizational layout. Edit away! -- kizzle 23:00, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
P.S. if you're going to significantly modify it, you might want to copy and paste and start your own. -- kizzle 00:52, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Proposal 1
Proposal 2
I believe we kind of decided in the talk pages above that we wouldn't include "pre-election" controversies and vandalism in this article at least. The 2004 prez debate article already has info on the debate controversies (bush supposeded wire, kerry pen). The point of this article really is evidence of massive vote fraud, need to separate small scale issues from the massive potential for fraud with no paper trail or auditable voting machines. Small scale incidents are not likely to change the outcome of the election after the fact, really only machine fraud or hacked machines evidence can do that. Though, I am not saying such information does not have its place on wikipedia somewhere, I just don't believe this article is the right location. Grouping such issues together implies they are of the same "scale" when clearly they are not. Voter suppression information then is only relevant for large scale incidents. Zen Master 23:19, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That is what this page is really about anyways. Otherwise, if we keep 2004 U.S. Election controversies, I would have to say that those debate controversies would technically fit under the title. -- kizzle 23:36, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Let me clearly state that I DO NOT support any of the proposed titles in this section, the current title is better. You guys are also getting WAY ahead of yourselves with the proposed formatting (i do not agree to it). The current title does not include "voting" in it; we spent a lot of time arriving at the current title yesterday, do not discount that discussion please.
Also, I do not believe vandalism should be included, do you think it should? "Voting Machines" should be a top level section with different types of machines then regional issues underneath that. Though, what is wrong with the current format exactly (please list your concerns relative to the current formatting)? The point of this article is about the potential for vote fraud and significant mathematical evidence of such, it's NOT' a place for listing all election controversies. How do you plan to move current information not include in your proposed format (currently there is no place for exit poll manipulation and registration vs results discrepancies listed)? Zen Master 00:04, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've been looking at how fast folks are finding new evidence to add (great job!), and the volume of interest in this article. Although I'd hoped to keep it to one article overall, we've already decided at least 2 articles (splitting out Pre-Election) and I've been looking at what kind of stuff's being added.
There seems to genuinely be potential for 3 articles here:
What I'd have is the core article briefly mention key pre-election concerns in a bullet list and then"For more on pre-election issues see (Link)". It lists a selection of incidents, and "For other incidents see (Link)". It summarises the conclusions of analysis, and shows the most important maps and summaries and "For more in-depth analysis maps and sources see (Link)".
This gives 3 clearly-differentiated articles, and the main article stays clean and effective. Would this work? The main article's already getting quite big and thats even with pre-election left out and further technical analysis (not to everyones taste) to come, so I think its a good possibility. FT2 02:36, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
If people like that, then I have a Suggested structure for the articles:
1 Background
2 Voting issues
3 Exit poll and final vote controversies
4 Voting interference and prevention
5 Official viewpoints and responses
6 Related Articles
7 External links
The daughter articles would then cover:
FT2 02:46, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
1. I thought that the relevance of the discrepancies between exit polls and reported results was that they were considered evidence of problems with voting machines. The current article states, "Voting locations that used electronic voting machines that did not issue a paper receipt or offer auditability correlate geographically with areas that had discrepancies in Bush's favor between exit poll numbers and actual results." If indeed the "discrepancies" point relates to electronic voting machines, then it should one of the subheadings under the higher-level heading about electronic voting machines. Yet, Proposal 1 has "Exit Poll versus Vote Count discrepency" parallel to "Electronic Voting", and Proposal 2 has "Data Irregularities" parallel to "Voting machines". In each case, the discrepancy/irregularity point should be made a subhead under the other.
2. Both proposals have a separate section for responses ("Official Responses/Viewpoints" or "Official viewpoints and responses"). That would mean that a charge that some election official committed fraud could be followed by a great deal of other material before the official's response was reported. I suggest that responses should instead be integrated into each subject where appropriate. If, for example, the Democratic Party comes out with a sweeping statement that the election was stolen (which I very much doubt the party apparatchiks will do), that might merit a separate heading, but until it happens, the responses we have are keyed to individual subjects. For example, we should add in the visits by Florida State Police to elderly black voters, note the charge that this was an effort to intimidate them, and, immediately after that, report the Florida officials' explanation about what they say they were up to.
3. Both proposals violate the capitalization rule for headings: "Capitalize the first word and any proper nouns in headings, but leave the rest (including ordinary nouns) lower case." (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Headings.) Incidentally, both proposals are already getting buried in this talk page. The proponent of each might do better to set it up as a subpage. They would be at User:Kizzle/Election controversies organizational proposal and User:Zen-master/Election controversies organizational proposal. Then we could find them more readily. My comment here doesn't cover FT2's proposal because I saw it only on getting an edit conflict message, and I haven't had time to consider it in detail yet. JamesMLane 03:15, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I meant for my proposal to be vastly overhauled by other users, I think the wikiquette of not editing other users posts has stopped people from doing that... I only really have 2 main concerns. Ideally, I would like to have some sort of way to be able to detail on a county-by-county basis extraordinary circumstances (like 80% democratic counties voting 80% for Bush), and to accomplish that use some sort of organization by state, as this I believe is a key in mathematically proving beyond margin of error that something fishy occured. The other concern is that the organization needs to be a little bit more intuitive for finding information. Otherwise, I don't care what the page looks like, as long as it stays as one article :) -- kizzle 04:53, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
If it's protected for fear of vandalism I vote for an admin to remove the protected flag, at least during daylight hours. :-) We did a pretty good job of watching the page yesterday. There is a treasure trove of information to add to the article today. For instance, absentee ballots are confirming the discrepancies between exit polls and actual results, even in a state like North Carolina where exit polls indicated bush would win there by 6%, but the final results say bush won by 13% (a 7% and statitically impossible difference if the data is sound), someone took a look at the results for absentee ballots (which are much harder to tamper with) and low and behold they show the expected 6% victory for bush. If you extrapolate this to the other swing states with exit poll discrepancies there can be little doubt Kerry won the election. Also, there is numerous instances of Ohio counties with precincts that reported more votes than the number of voters. Zen Master 17:35, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I would very much like the dispute lifted. It presents us from adding any new information (new sources, etc.) of an objective nature. Thus, the disputed status is preventing updated information from being posted - contradicting the very purpose of the page. Thanks. "mickazoid" 1:00pm EDT 9 Nov 2004
Schnee has unprotected the page. Although this makes sense -- with the source of the problem, Rex, having announced his (second) departure from Wikipedia -- I actually have slight regret that we didn't settle the scope, title and organizational questions before the protection ended. If the article gets edited for each new news story that comes out, the randomness problem will worsen. JamesMLane 20:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I actually have started to like Proposal 2... I have a few minor gripes about specific subcategories but I like the general feel of it. I must reiterate however that if we are to exclude vandalism, debate controversies, and other stuff, we really should make this 2004 U.S. Election voting controversies and irregularities, or else I would have to say those issues would technically fall under this specification. -- kizzle 20:47, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Not many people have chimed in on this issue, but my impression is that there's more agreement than disagreement about inserting the word "voting" to make clear that tax cuts and suspicious bulges aren't the kind of controversy being addressed here. Also, inclusion of "irregularities" in the title seemed to have no strong defenders. Accordingly, I'd like to move this article to "2004 U.S. election voting controversies". I'll do so in several hours unless comments here indicate a need for further discussion. JamesMLane 21:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I happened upon this picture, which shows the correlation between states that "voted" for Bush, and the states where slavery was legal before the Civil War. I thought some of you might find this amusing. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 23:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Two straight votes here, to see if we have a viable consensus without further discussion. FT2 02:10, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Much vandalism attempted this afternoon, I believe it may be due to other election fraud sites and message boards linking to this article, is there a way to check traffic stats for this article for today? Zen Master 19:41, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
5 bucks says Rex went and cried to all his freeper friends to help him out. -- kizzle 19:44, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry Zen Master, your first protection went right before I did a revert and it removed your protect. As for the vandalism...people need to grow up. I've said on the POTUS talk page that I'm not interested in political views, I'm interested in reporting facts. Let the people decide for themselves. -- Jwinters | Talk 19:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Or should they be true subpages?
(I already started Florida, so we'd have to delete it if we go true subpages route.) Kevin Baas | talk 21:14, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
Insert non-formatted text hereInsert non-formatted text here could someone dig up by-county or by-precinct exit poll data ? Please post here
Since this article is now featured on the Main page in the In the news section, I unprotected it again. Let's hope this works out and actually attracts valuable contributions, not just more vandalism. ^_~ -- Schnee 22:33, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Naming
I'll have to come back later to look over all the new talk comments and cast any votes I choose to, but I just have to point out one thing now, which has been mentioned on this page by me and others: Wikipedia style, for article titles and for internal headers, uses sentence case. Specifically, for article titles: "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized, e.g. use John Wayne but Computer game." (from Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words) Would anyone who's already voted object or change their votes if the alternatives were brought into conformity by lowercasing "Election" in each? JamesMLane 00:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
fine by me :) -- kizzle 04:20, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Sub-pages
New Organizational Layout
'
From Wikipedia:No original research:
Wikipedia is not the place for original research such as "new" theories ( Wikisource is).
Wikipedia is not a primary source. Specific factual content is not the question. Wikipedia is a secondary source (one that analyzes, assimilates, evaluates, interprets, and/or synthesizes primary sources) or tertiary source (one that generalizes existing research or secondary sources of a specific subject under consideration). A Wikipedia entry is a report, not an essay. Please cite sources.
My contention is that we are drawing conclusions of our own with this article, not reporting the conclusions of reputable primary sources. The individual data points are not the issue, as those are from good sources. The problem is the words being put around that data, and the conclusions being reached. That is the major problem with this article right now. -- Netoholic @ 22:57, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
IMO, this article is somewhat POV, even if it's a POV I agree with. There are no good sources cited, mostly some rather cursory correlations with no controlling for known demographic factors. For example, optical-scan machines are not evenly distributed, so demographic changes may correlate with changes in optical-scan results simply because of where they're located. Would other explanations, such as an across-the-board increase in Republican turnout in all counties (optical-scan and not) result in the same correlations seen here? There's no attempt to answer questions like that. This is why they are just some guy with a webpage, not actual published studies: They don't meet any reasonable criteria of statistical analysis, and would never make it through peer review. Until we have some reliable sources, I don't think this article really has anything worth writing. -- Delirium 00:09, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
First step, and I'll need all your help, is please add to this list links or citations to primary sources that have drawn conclusions (positive or negative) on the issue of election irregularities. From these, we will summarize the views, and present them. -- Netoholic @ 23:12, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
Someone is messing with the totallydisputed header image? Zen Master 23:25, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am completely unaware of any significant dispute of neutrality or factual accuracy on this article. Why does it have the dispute tag? Kevin Baas | talk 23:36, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
I would also like to call for those that dispute the factual accuracy of the page to copy and paste any potentially infringing sections verbatim here for further discussion as to remove the tag as quickly as possible. -- kizzle 04:08, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
This article was on the news list on the main page a few minutes ago. What happened? -- ComplexZeta 00:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Ah it's back now. -- ComplexZeta 00:06, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
That's not too surprising if he's a Bush supporter, given how many people view the main page. -- ComplexZeta 00:21, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
I don't think this belongs on the front page as it currently stands. It's not very much in the news, and there are no peer-reviewed studies (or even reasonably comprehensive studies) we cite, just some quick calculation of correlations and conjectures of causation with no controlling for demographic or other factors. Until it's either in the news more or we get some solid statistical analysis, I don't think it belongs on the mainpage. -- Delirium 00:22, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
What is the "There were two kinds of issues section" in the intro trying to say? It makes no sense, is very confusingly worded and seems in opposition to the essense of the intro paragraphs. I vote for its removal or significant clean up. Zen Master 00:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exit polling is reliable and should be thought of as a check and balance against fraud (as I originally wrote in the article). That is why it is important to address the current election's "data irregularities" (assuming no fraud took place) because errors does NOT mean we should completely discount exit polling, instead we should figure out the irregularities to improve exit polling techniques for the next election (again, assuming no fraud took place this time). Completely discounting exit polling is an election fraudster's dream, but that does not mean to say exit polling can't be improved or that the data is not in fact wrong in this case. There should be more independent exit pollsters anyway, especially now that it has pointed to potential fraud ("they" will not make that mistake again [this time assuming there was fraud]) Zen Master 00:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Concur. The argument that the exit poll was simply flawed, according to statistical analysis performed by a former MIT professor, has a 1 in 50,000 chance of being sound. Kevin Baas | talk 00:50, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Mainstream opinion appears to be split on this. Turn on the TV and you'll hear people arguing the point. Wikipedia is not a site for original research, so if people are split on it, all we do is report that people are split on it. -- Delirium 02:03, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
I have de-linked this article from most of the visible encyclopedia articles (leaving talk pages, etc.). I strongly feel that this article is going in a direction we at Wikipedia do not want to go. We're not a news agency, we aren't a primary source. We cite reliable sources, and if that means we have to wait, then we wait. We do not need to be on the cutting edge. We need to wait until other reliable groups have made their analysis. This article is currently just a laundry list of external links (most to partisan sources), along with a lot of number-crunching done by a few very resourceful Wikipedians. This is not how we should be doing this, though. We must wait for other groups to come to their own conclusions, and then summarize those findings.
I supported Kerry, and I do worry about irregularities, but we are not here to do the work of those who have stronger issues with the election. Please join me in sourcing this article properly. At a future date, we should merge a minimal section into the main election coverage. Please don't let Wikipedia become a soapbox. Thank you all. -- Netoholic @ 04:46, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Can we hash this out on this page, rather than have an edit war? For instance, can we say how the data is unreliable? - Ta bu shi da yu 06:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In this section, Image:2004 us discrepancy.gif has no source information for the data used to make this chart. As such, the whole section should be removed since it is using this information to draw it's conclusions. -- Netoholic @ 15:05, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
I have requested this page be protected. Far too many reverts. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Here are two articles dealing with many claims listed in this entry - [15] [16]. They're from Slate and Salon, neither of which can be considered conservative, and agree that much of the speculation currently circulating is baseless.
Also, could somebody please find what exit poll was used for the "Exit Polls vs. Machine Tallies, by State (9 States)" graphic? It isn't the initial leaked results, is it? Those would be from far too early in the day to predict anything. Also, how come only nine states are displayed in it? Giving all the information would be far better. Finally, the charts themselves seem slightly deceitful, as the scale on some of them ends at 60 and others at 55.
If anybody can find final, raw exit poll data, that would be very interesting to compare to the official count. I think that comparisons with the exit poll data from past elections would also be helpful.
Unless someone can find information on those two CNN images, it might be best to ignore them for now. We don't know what reasoning might be behind them. Futhermore, we can't even know that they're genuine. Anyone could take a screenshot from CNN and edit them so the numbers say something different. If the veracity of the screenshots can be confirmed, they should be considered. If not, regard them with suspicion. -- Words to sell 09:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have tagged the article with what seems the most appropriate tag, {{Controversial3}}.
Controversial3 means:
This seems to describe the article perfectly. A large number of concerns have been agreed, and others remain still disputed.
Please sign below if you agree with this tag, in order that a consensus can be agreed and the article stops being revert/edited back and forth between no tag ("All OK"), "NPOV" and "totallydisputed". FT2 17:45, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
No, the "controversial" tag is one you just invented. It is watered down, and does not attract attention from people who watch for disputed articles. I dispute this article completely, and so I have placed the tag. Satisfy my concerns rather than watering them down. I insist that {{totallydisputed}} remain. --
Netoholic
@ 18:11, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
I object strongly to the above section title. I have asked that it be changed, since it implies wrong-doing on my part. I choose to leave it here as an example to others about how not to handle conflict. -- Netoholic @ 18:13, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
(To: Netoholic) - I am not even neccesarily against it, but when you go off and nominate images used on this election controversy page for deletion without mentioning it here on the talk page and even worse you requested a "speedy delete" when you are definitely aware there are numerous people that disagree with you tells me you may not understand or respect the wikipedia guidelines on controversy resolution. Here is your request: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Images_for_deletion#November_11 Even if the images are themselves unverifiable please give us time to find other sources for that data. Zen Master 16:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(PS - Ive removed the name from the title of the section as that really does make him look bad, for the sake of less friction and fairness. Hope it helps consensus building)
FT2 17:58, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Netaholic, describing matters that respected House Committee members saw fit to write not one but two letters to the GOA, where Federal Hearings have heard expert testimony as to the seriousness and potential for these issues, which can be found in the reputable printed national papers of many countries, where many thousands of individual American voters have stated they witnessed incidents that suggested the same personally, and where official data of the US government itself suggests an significant issue, as "partisan junk" suggests you are highly partial in this matter. Are you?
I have also looked up the guideline pages you cite. They state as follows:
Guideline Wikipedia:Cite sources states of opinions being used within Wiki articles: "If you consult an external source while writing an article, citing it is basic intellectual honesty. More than that, you should actively search for [but are not required to find] authoritative references to cite ... The main point is to help the reader * cite whatever you think will be most helpful. This applies when writing about opinions"
From this we conclude that Wiki's guides positively allow non-authoritative or partisan sources to be used (as they should for no source is guaranteed omniscient), and also explicitely allows citing of opinions. Provided their weaknesses if any are referred to in the article, the article itself will remain wiki-neutral. The only requirement is that the source, together with any clarification needed of its quality, is given, and with that I agree. Instead of reverting and complaining "its not neutral", why not ask yourself why users are re-adding things you delete, and then list here exactly the changes you want to see fixed so others can discuss rather than telling them "I'm doing this without consensus". FT2 18:32, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
The 'Opposing View' and discussion has been moved from the Vote page to the Talk page. At least it wasn't deleted. -- RyanFreisling
In the section about Floridian tallies actually going down for the democratic contender, the candidate is given as "Gore". Whether this is sneaky vandalism (and, no, I will not check the history for it) or whether the whole quotation and/or section is a spoof, it probably had best be soonest mended by someone who gives a fig. -- Cimon 19:57, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
even the opening template to say this page is controversial is contested? sheesh. -- kizzle 21:25, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
I think this edit just says it all: [17]
Kevin baas is putting his own debate into the news articles section, attempting to discredit articles which don't fit his already-chosen theory: "Discusses a report that claims to outline problems with the early exit poll data wich "skewed" the data, but only makes one unsubstantiated hypothesis that would skew the poll: Repulicans were more wary of pollers. Also makes unsubstantiated ad hominem attack on internet users."
Rhobite 21:33, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Rhobite, I attempted to go closer to neutral with my original posting of the two additional "debunk" articles. I changed the wording to "purporting to debunk" rather than "allegedly debunks" which reads too negatively, and not neutrally.
-- Radioastro 21:43, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
-- Radioastro 22:00, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rhobite, what I wrote was the truth. It takes about an elementary school education to know how to interpret poll numbers. there's nothing fancy or esoteric about it. and that unsubstantiated hypothesis is the only thing said in that article that could skew the data. I just don't want poeple to be misled. That article can be very misleading to a reader that doesn't employ critical thinking skills. Kevin Baas | talk 21:50, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Absolutely none of the suggestions above are the proper course to take in order to make this section, or this article better. Please read Wikipedia:Weasel words. -- Netoholic @ 21:55, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
This definitely should be cited. Is this just in one state or nationwide? is this counted from voteprotect.org logs? Kevin Baas | talk 22:11, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Until this is verified, I'm going to return it to the vague wording. Kevin Baas | talk 22:17, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
The article says 32. "Substantial" is not NPOV. If you have more cases, put in a cite, otherwise it's just editorializing.
I beg to differ. 32 is non-factual unless it is cited and supported.
"At least 32 have been reported" is more acceptable. Kevin Baas | talk 22:35, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Here is the quote from the article that is sited to support the proposition: "The Election Protection Coalition received a total of 32 reports of touch-screen voters who selected one candidate only to have another show up on the summary screen, Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a coalition member."
There are other places that have probably recieved reports that have not been reported to the EPC. And the EIRS has been recieving about 350 reports a day. Kevin Baas | talk 22:43, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
[18] make that two. [19] Broward and Miami-Dade are very close. [20]
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I noticed this was mentioned above, but it really deserves a section. I created the images for it in Flash 5. (i.e. i have them in vector graphics format) If anyone wants the .fla's or any thing that flash exports, i can email them. Checking out the exit polls here: [1] (which unfortunately one has to do some math to get an estimate on bush-kerry votes) I noticed that the sample size for ohio was 2,020; for florida was 2,862; and for new hampshire was 1,883. Those should give a pretty accurate prediction. Without even doing the math I can tell that these discrepancies are way outside the margin of error. Less than 14,000 people were polled in the U.S., so assuming equal population distribution, we should expect these to be some of the most accurate polls. But what are the populations? We should gather sample size data, population data, poll data, so we can make statistical maps. Kevin Baas | talk 00:23, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
Perhaps have section that study particular states, such as Florida, Ohio, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvannia? And speaking of Florida, how do we put this into the article?: [2] Kevin Baas | talk 00:52, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
I am hugely supportive of that idea KB, I think even if lets say Diebold or Op-scan occurs in multiple states, the evidence we need to build will still be dependent upon calculating on a per-county basis of expected/registered voters versus actual votes and compare them to distribution of e-voting machines and types. -- kizzle 01:24, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Sure sounds like kizzle wants to do original research. No POV there of course. 216.153.214.94 03:12, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
combining research done by others into one central article is not original research. I'm not going to Florida door-by-door and asking if they registered to vote. Hence the multiple citations on this page. -- kizzle 03:44, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, state by state would be useful, but only insofar as it wouldn't just be a regurgitation of other more general information. If there is genuinely specific information about a satte that's not part of the more general article then that would be a good way to do it. (And maybe if the maps get too big, a section for "maps related to voting issues" too?) FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Sure, if someone else has done a case study. If you're doing a case study, Wikipedia is not a venue to publish your original research. -- Delirium 11:31, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
Why is there no discussion of Democratic attempts to abuse the system? Examples are numerous and rampant, yet no mention?
If you have cited evidence please contribute :) -- kizzle 06:31, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Actually, "Democratic Abuse" is a very important part of this story and should be covered. A crucial part of the ground game was for the Republican campaign to make as much noise about supposed Democratic abuse, preemtively, in an attempt to ambiguate the issue in the public eye. However, the second after Kerry conceeded the noise stopped. For more information check out | Act Two from last weeks "This American Life" on NPR. Morgan Patrick
Wow. I used to think Wikipedia was a place to come and get valuable verifiable information. Now I realize that anyone...even myself can simply type up some drivel and pass if off as the truth. Here is an interesting article from today's Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/10/internet_buzz_on_vote_fraud_is_dismissed/ No one would be more interested than me in finding out that we really won, but that ain't the case," said Jack Corrigan, a veteran Kerry adviser who led the Democrats' team of 3,600 attorneys who fanned out across the country on Election Day to address voting irregularities.
I get why people are frustrated, but they did not steal this election," Corrigan said. There were a few problems here and there in the election. But unlike 2000, there is no doubt that they actually got more votes than we did, and they got them in the states that mattered.
How about this group ACORN and it's less than honest voter registration drive? ..the kid in Ohio that was paid crack cocaine by the NAACP to get democrats to register? ....The extra 90K votes than voters in Cayhoga county (democrat stronghold)? The slashed tires of republican GOTV cars? The machines with votes already on them when the poll opened in PA? How about here in New York you don't get a paper reciept of your vote and Democrats have been winning here for years...nobody ever complains about that?
How about you guys in the interest of preserving our national unity and imperfect democracy just accept the results with the understanding that any endeavor of this magnitude will have some discrepencies. But there is no evidence of systematic fraud by either party.
And yes, there was even a guy who's boss, another hard-up shlub in charge of rectuiting registars, paid his guy with a nice chunk of crack.
Now: I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Cayhoga county went for bush this year. If one were alleging conspiracy you would think that would be cause for the concerns raised in this article... except it turns out that story about more votes than voters was false. See that's kinda the point of Wikipedia, to get to the root of things. That's also the sole point of analyzing this election for the sake of future elections.
To repeat the specific talking points verbatim, and to believe the horrendously racist and absurd claim that the NAACP paid people with crack, and to add that invective into an argument about the accuracy of votes as though the two have any correlation, reveals a lot about your character, sir. Morgan Patrick
You aren't interested in getting to the truth. You're only interested in casting doubt on a legitimate election because you detest the outcome.
Here is a link to the crack for votes story curtesy of the Toledo Blade http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343 (quote)Defiance County Sheriff David Westrick said that Mr. Staton was working on behalf of a Toledo woman, Georgianne Pitts, to register new voters. She, in turn, was working on behalf of the NAACP National Voter Fund, which was formed by the NAACP in 2000 to register new voters. Sheriff Westrick said that Pitts, 41, of Toledo, admitted she gave Mr. Staton crack cocaine in lieu of cash for supplying her with completed voter registration forms.
Cuyahoga county went for Kerry 67% to 33% http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/county.000.html
I doubt you will add the info from this link to your phony encyclopedia http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=409
The first step to voting is registering to vote. The title of the article is "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities". The purpose of which appears to be exposing voter fraud. Falsifying voter registrations regardless how clever the alias would be the starting point of a particular form of fraud. Even if the phony registrants don't show up to vote their addition to the voter roles furthers the confusion, chaos and possibilities of mischief. Finally this is only an example of a glaring irregularity. Who's to say there aren't other examples of falsified registrations that would easily pass muster with stressed, over worked and underpaid poll workers. If you are looking to get to the bottom of "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities", you must consider all evidence. Not just that which supports anyone's particular position.
I have added an {{npov}} tag. It can be removed once this article is sufficiently expanded to reflect all viewpoints. For example, the article currently includes a great deal of content expounding on the viewpoint of one side with much shorter descriptions of rebuttals from the other side. Note also there is a space at the bottom of the page for the viewpoints of several groups that has not yet been completed. Once most sides' viewpoints have been added, not just in the bottom section but throughout the article, I would fully support removing the {{npov}} tag. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 07:13, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Regarding "You can't justify the NPOV tag by expressing the desire that something else be added by an unspecified someone.": If the flat Earth and spherical Earth articles presented all the claims of flat-Earthers, with no rebuttals from the other side (I am not claiming this is the current state of these two articles; I am just saying that if this were so), and you wandered by and saw the pages but were not someone familiar enough with the physics to write the justification for a round Earth yourself, I think you would still nevertheless be justified in adding an {{npov}} tag to the articles and keeping it on the articles indefinitely until someone properly qualified in the physics wrote a section answering the claims of the flat-Earthers. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 09:08, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
And this would apply in the opposite case as well, if the articles cited above completely dismissed and refused to even mention flat Earth claims. Articles that are POV should be NPOVed for all viewpoints, and if necessary, a tag should be added to prompt editors sufficiently versed in the subject to do so. — Lowellian ( talk)[[]] 09:11, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I think it's fine if the NPOV tag is put on the page, it will inspire additional beneficial clean ups. I disagree with them but I suppose a disagreement on scope (what the article should be about) can be considered a POV violation? I absolutely do not believe the "acts of violence" stuff belongs on the page, it's possible republicans did that to themselves to offset any expected vote machine controversy backlash. Zen Master 21:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(1) One of the section titles was changed a couple of days ago from "Voting machine companies with political ties" to "Voting machine companies with political ties to George W. Bush". Whilst at present no voting machine company has been stated or is alleged to have major political ties with Kerry, the possibility does exist. So although this is factually accurate, I'm concerned whether this new title gives the impression of POV. Votes for keeping current title or reverting to previous one? FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
(2) Source (or at least county name) needs adding for the 77% county in Florida? FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
(3) Good introductory quote found, where should it go? For now I've put it at the top.
(4) The text accompanying the maps need a couple of minor gaps filled in before it's really solid evidence:
(Also, the 3rd map has many states in grey, but there isn't a grey on the color key. Should these be white?)
(5) A lot of introduction and background information was removed for the sake of making the article more streamlined, but I'm concerned too much got removed. I've often found that in a topic like this, a section of background summary is useful. So I've provisionally edited as follows:
These are provisional only - can we briefly discuss and get different views before any editing? FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 216.153.214.94's additions of acts of violence should be part of this page, since their implications fall under the idea of voter suppression, which is already mentioned. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 15:44, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is written poorly, doesn't really say anything, and seemingly violates NPOV. I was going to clean it up but I didn't know where to begin (I commented it out yesterday but someone undid that). I think it's incorrect to say there is substatial information in the "media" about fraud with this election, where are any citations for that claim? If anything the media have been completely silent on the issue of massive vote fraud. Any scale and significance section should address the much greater potential for fraud from voting machines, in my opinion. What was the original author of that section trying to convey? The florida discrepancies between registered democrat percentages and actual results could be in there or near there, that section could become a one level higher section heading (after being rewritten) that introduces that largest instances of potential fraud? Zen Master 18:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I like it, the only thing I'd add is an extra sentence or so, that explains due to the US electoral college system, it isn't the popular vote, but the electoral college vote which counts, and therefore in the past (ref to 2000 election) sometimes only a few hundred votes in a critical location have been enough to swing the entire national election. Therefore small discrepancies in voting as well as big ones are important, as an election fraud could be perpetrated with a few thousand votes in the right place. To my mind thats whats left missing. Comments? Agree? FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
The article devotes most of its space to possible miscounting of votes cast, but it also refers to voter suppression, some of which occurs before Election Day. It may be hard to draw lines here, but I suggest that the article should be about reasons for concern that the officially announced totals don't reflect the decisions of the people who were entitled to register and vote.
This division seems to reflect what most people understand the article to be about. Things like the Toledo break-in are "controversies" or "irregularities" but aren't what the article is about. That's why I think that the title should be something like "2004 U.S. election voting controversies". The title we eventually settle on should reflect a consensus of what's to be included and what's excluded. JamesMLane 20:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just a side note, watch countdown tonight on MSNBC with Keith Olbermann, he's going to be covering it today and tommorow. -- kizzle 20:38, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
What time? Kevin Baas | talk 20:55, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
8pm ET... not sure if its going to replayed at 8PT for west coast. -- kizzle 21:27, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I'm working on a template. Anyone want to claim responsibility for aggregating a particular type of data? Kevin Baas | talk 20:58, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
I'd love a copy of spreadsheet data as you produce it :) FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
The CNN poll, in Florida, gives bush 51%, kerry 49%, but this source gives kerry 49%, bush 51%. Was the CNN poll modified post-facto in Florida as well as Ohio? Kevin Baas | talk 19:16, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
In fact, the CNN exit polls are uncanny, so far they are all (except florida) within 1%, and i noticed there's a percentage difference in some cases with the above source. Are they all post-facto adjusted? Kevin Baas | talk 19:46, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
They must be: New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and Minnesota are within 1%. All that work! Don't use the CNN exit polls. They'll correspond exactly with the vote count because they were adjusted post-facto so as to do so. Kevin Baas | talk 20:06, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
Keith Olbermann reports "the Cincinnati Enquirer reported that officials in Warren County, Ohio, had “locked down” its administration building to prevent anybody from observing the vote count there.
Suspicious enough on the face of it, the decision got more dubious still when County Commissioners confirmed that they were acting on the advice of their Emergency Services Director, Frank Young. Mr. Young had explained that he had been advised by the federal government to implement the measures for the sake of Homeland Security.
Gotcha. Tom Ridge thought Osama Bin Laden was planning to hit Caesar Creek State Park in Waynesville."
I wanted to add this, but I'm not sure where it would go. I think the layout of the page needs to be discussed, as I feel somewhat its starting to take a feel of randomness to it. Any thoughts on whether it needs to be re-organized at all, and if so what it should look like? --
kizzle 21:29, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
A category of 2004 election issues? Surely it can be fitted into one article? Maybe with a subsidiary article for "detailed list of evidence" summarised in the main article? So we can offload stuff like dozens of maps, or dozens of incidents, to a 2nd article thats non-controversial, and keep the main article more concise? Would that work? FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
As long as this article is titled "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities", the acts of violence fall under this topic. 216.153.214.94 22:03, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not aware there was significantly more violence than previous elections, as it says under "misrepresentations" (or did till commented out), stuff like that was agreed to be excluded. FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Rex (216.153.214.94), please do not keep on adding stuff to the article when there's consent that your edits are inappopriate; rather, discuss your proposed edits here on the talk page. Thanks. -- Schnee 22:12, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In view of the fact that Kerry already surrendered the election, can anything now be done, even if criminal rigging occured? Especially in view of the fact that the "original" vote totals can't be recovered from Diebold machines? Pakaran . 22:31, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Luckily thats speculation and controversy, not related to the evidence gathering (both sides) within this article :) FT2 00:45, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Indeed :)... FT2, you're always there to bring us back to the business at hand ;) -- kizzle 00:47, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Supposedly Kerry's brother is asking people to send evidence of fraud to him - see http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/ale04089.html Waitingtoderail
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/index.html - Judiciary democrats are starting to look into it. Can this have consensus? Or if not move it to another section, before I abuse my sysop privs and get impeached. J/K Pakaran (ark a pan) 22:29, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please feel free to modify the following post to formulate an alternative organizational layout. Edit away! -- kizzle 23:00, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
P.S. if you're going to significantly modify it, you might want to copy and paste and start your own. -- kizzle 00:52, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Proposal 1
Proposal 2
I believe we kind of decided in the talk pages above that we wouldn't include "pre-election" controversies and vandalism in this article at least. The 2004 prez debate article already has info on the debate controversies (bush supposeded wire, kerry pen). The point of this article really is evidence of massive vote fraud, need to separate small scale issues from the massive potential for fraud with no paper trail or auditable voting machines. Small scale incidents are not likely to change the outcome of the election after the fact, really only machine fraud or hacked machines evidence can do that. Though, I am not saying such information does not have its place on wikipedia somewhere, I just don't believe this article is the right location. Grouping such issues together implies they are of the same "scale" when clearly they are not. Voter suppression information then is only relevant for large scale incidents. Zen Master 23:19, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That is what this page is really about anyways. Otherwise, if we keep 2004 U.S. Election controversies, I would have to say that those debate controversies would technically fit under the title. -- kizzle 23:36, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Let me clearly state that I DO NOT support any of the proposed titles in this section, the current title is better. You guys are also getting WAY ahead of yourselves with the proposed formatting (i do not agree to it). The current title does not include "voting" in it; we spent a lot of time arriving at the current title yesterday, do not discount that discussion please.
Also, I do not believe vandalism should be included, do you think it should? "Voting Machines" should be a top level section with different types of machines then regional issues underneath that. Though, what is wrong with the current format exactly (please list your concerns relative to the current formatting)? The point of this article is about the potential for vote fraud and significant mathematical evidence of such, it's NOT' a place for listing all election controversies. How do you plan to move current information not include in your proposed format (currently there is no place for exit poll manipulation and registration vs results discrepancies listed)? Zen Master 00:04, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've been looking at how fast folks are finding new evidence to add (great job!), and the volume of interest in this article. Although I'd hoped to keep it to one article overall, we've already decided at least 2 articles (splitting out Pre-Election) and I've been looking at what kind of stuff's being added.
There seems to genuinely be potential for 3 articles here:
What I'd have is the core article briefly mention key pre-election concerns in a bullet list and then"For more on pre-election issues see (Link)". It lists a selection of incidents, and "For other incidents see (Link)". It summarises the conclusions of analysis, and shows the most important maps and summaries and "For more in-depth analysis maps and sources see (Link)".
This gives 3 clearly-differentiated articles, and the main article stays clean and effective. Would this work? The main article's already getting quite big and thats even with pre-election left out and further technical analysis (not to everyones taste) to come, so I think its a good possibility. FT2 02:36, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
If people like that, then I have a Suggested structure for the articles:
1 Background
2 Voting issues
3 Exit poll and final vote controversies
4 Voting interference and prevention
5 Official viewpoints and responses
6 Related Articles
7 External links
The daughter articles would then cover:
FT2 02:46, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
1. I thought that the relevance of the discrepancies between exit polls and reported results was that they were considered evidence of problems with voting machines. The current article states, "Voting locations that used electronic voting machines that did not issue a paper receipt or offer auditability correlate geographically with areas that had discrepancies in Bush's favor between exit poll numbers and actual results." If indeed the "discrepancies" point relates to electronic voting machines, then it should one of the subheadings under the higher-level heading about electronic voting machines. Yet, Proposal 1 has "Exit Poll versus Vote Count discrepency" parallel to "Electronic Voting", and Proposal 2 has "Data Irregularities" parallel to "Voting machines". In each case, the discrepancy/irregularity point should be made a subhead under the other.
2. Both proposals have a separate section for responses ("Official Responses/Viewpoints" or "Official viewpoints and responses"). That would mean that a charge that some election official committed fraud could be followed by a great deal of other material before the official's response was reported. I suggest that responses should instead be integrated into each subject where appropriate. If, for example, the Democratic Party comes out with a sweeping statement that the election was stolen (which I very much doubt the party apparatchiks will do), that might merit a separate heading, but until it happens, the responses we have are keyed to individual subjects. For example, we should add in the visits by Florida State Police to elderly black voters, note the charge that this was an effort to intimidate them, and, immediately after that, report the Florida officials' explanation about what they say they were up to.
3. Both proposals violate the capitalization rule for headings: "Capitalize the first word and any proper nouns in headings, but leave the rest (including ordinary nouns) lower case." (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Headings.) Incidentally, both proposals are already getting buried in this talk page. The proponent of each might do better to set it up as a subpage. They would be at User:Kizzle/Election controversies organizational proposal and User:Zen-master/Election controversies organizational proposal. Then we could find them more readily. My comment here doesn't cover FT2's proposal because I saw it only on getting an edit conflict message, and I haven't had time to consider it in detail yet. JamesMLane 03:15, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I meant for my proposal to be vastly overhauled by other users, I think the wikiquette of not editing other users posts has stopped people from doing that... I only really have 2 main concerns. Ideally, I would like to have some sort of way to be able to detail on a county-by-county basis extraordinary circumstances (like 80% democratic counties voting 80% for Bush), and to accomplish that use some sort of organization by state, as this I believe is a key in mathematically proving beyond margin of error that something fishy occured. The other concern is that the organization needs to be a little bit more intuitive for finding information. Otherwise, I don't care what the page looks like, as long as it stays as one article :) -- kizzle 04:53, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
If it's protected for fear of vandalism I vote for an admin to remove the protected flag, at least during daylight hours. :-) We did a pretty good job of watching the page yesterday. There is a treasure trove of information to add to the article today. For instance, absentee ballots are confirming the discrepancies between exit polls and actual results, even in a state like North Carolina where exit polls indicated bush would win there by 6%, but the final results say bush won by 13% (a 7% and statitically impossible difference if the data is sound), someone took a look at the results for absentee ballots (which are much harder to tamper with) and low and behold they show the expected 6% victory for bush. If you extrapolate this to the other swing states with exit poll discrepancies there can be little doubt Kerry won the election. Also, there is numerous instances of Ohio counties with precincts that reported more votes than the number of voters. Zen Master 17:35, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I would very much like the dispute lifted. It presents us from adding any new information (new sources, etc.) of an objective nature. Thus, the disputed status is preventing updated information from being posted - contradicting the very purpose of the page. Thanks. "mickazoid" 1:00pm EDT 9 Nov 2004
Schnee has unprotected the page. Although this makes sense -- with the source of the problem, Rex, having announced his (second) departure from Wikipedia -- I actually have slight regret that we didn't settle the scope, title and organizational questions before the protection ended. If the article gets edited for each new news story that comes out, the randomness problem will worsen. JamesMLane 20:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I actually have started to like Proposal 2... I have a few minor gripes about specific subcategories but I like the general feel of it. I must reiterate however that if we are to exclude vandalism, debate controversies, and other stuff, we really should make this 2004 U.S. Election voting controversies and irregularities, or else I would have to say those issues would technically fall under this specification. -- kizzle 20:47, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Not many people have chimed in on this issue, but my impression is that there's more agreement than disagreement about inserting the word "voting" to make clear that tax cuts and suspicious bulges aren't the kind of controversy being addressed here. Also, inclusion of "irregularities" in the title seemed to have no strong defenders. Accordingly, I'd like to move this article to "2004 U.S. election voting controversies". I'll do so in several hours unless comments here indicate a need for further discussion. JamesMLane 21:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I happened upon this picture, which shows the correlation between states that "voted" for Bush, and the states where slavery was legal before the Civil War. I thought some of you might find this amusing. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 23:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Two straight votes here, to see if we have a viable consensus without further discussion. FT2 02:10, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Much vandalism attempted this afternoon, I believe it may be due to other election fraud sites and message boards linking to this article, is there a way to check traffic stats for this article for today? Zen Master 19:41, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
5 bucks says Rex went and cried to all his freeper friends to help him out. -- kizzle 19:44, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry Zen Master, your first protection went right before I did a revert and it removed your protect. As for the vandalism...people need to grow up. I've said on the POTUS talk page that I'm not interested in political views, I'm interested in reporting facts. Let the people decide for themselves. -- Jwinters | Talk 19:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Or should they be true subpages?
(I already started Florida, so we'd have to delete it if we go true subpages route.) Kevin Baas | talk 21:14, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
Insert non-formatted text hereInsert non-formatted text here could someone dig up by-county or by-precinct exit poll data ? Please post here
Since this article is now featured on the Main page in the In the news section, I unprotected it again. Let's hope this works out and actually attracts valuable contributions, not just more vandalism. ^_~ -- Schnee 22:33, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Naming
I'll have to come back later to look over all the new talk comments and cast any votes I choose to, but I just have to point out one thing now, which has been mentioned on this page by me and others: Wikipedia style, for article titles and for internal headers, uses sentence case. Specifically, for article titles: "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized, e.g. use John Wayne but Computer game." (from Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words) Would anyone who's already voted object or change their votes if the alternatives were brought into conformity by lowercasing "Election" in each? JamesMLane 00:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
fine by me :) -- kizzle 04:20, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Sub-pages
New Organizational Layout
'
From Wikipedia:No original research:
Wikipedia is not the place for original research such as "new" theories ( Wikisource is).
Wikipedia is not a primary source. Specific factual content is not the question. Wikipedia is a secondary source (one that analyzes, assimilates, evaluates, interprets, and/or synthesizes primary sources) or tertiary source (one that generalizes existing research or secondary sources of a specific subject under consideration). A Wikipedia entry is a report, not an essay. Please cite sources.
My contention is that we are drawing conclusions of our own with this article, not reporting the conclusions of reputable primary sources. The individual data points are not the issue, as those are from good sources. The problem is the words being put around that data, and the conclusions being reached. That is the major problem with this article right now. -- Netoholic @ 22:57, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
IMO, this article is somewhat POV, even if it's a POV I agree with. There are no good sources cited, mostly some rather cursory correlations with no controlling for known demographic factors. For example, optical-scan machines are not evenly distributed, so demographic changes may correlate with changes in optical-scan results simply because of where they're located. Would other explanations, such as an across-the-board increase in Republican turnout in all counties (optical-scan and not) result in the same correlations seen here? There's no attempt to answer questions like that. This is why they are just some guy with a webpage, not actual published studies: They don't meet any reasonable criteria of statistical analysis, and would never make it through peer review. Until we have some reliable sources, I don't think this article really has anything worth writing. -- Delirium 00:09, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
First step, and I'll need all your help, is please add to this list links or citations to primary sources that have drawn conclusions (positive or negative) on the issue of election irregularities. From these, we will summarize the views, and present them. -- Netoholic @ 23:12, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
Someone is messing with the totallydisputed header image? Zen Master 23:25, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am completely unaware of any significant dispute of neutrality or factual accuracy on this article. Why does it have the dispute tag? Kevin Baas | talk 23:36, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
I would also like to call for those that dispute the factual accuracy of the page to copy and paste any potentially infringing sections verbatim here for further discussion as to remove the tag as quickly as possible. -- kizzle 04:08, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
This article was on the news list on the main page a few minutes ago. What happened? -- ComplexZeta 00:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Ah it's back now. -- ComplexZeta 00:06, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
That's not too surprising if he's a Bush supporter, given how many people view the main page. -- ComplexZeta 00:21, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
I don't think this belongs on the front page as it currently stands. It's not very much in the news, and there are no peer-reviewed studies (or even reasonably comprehensive studies) we cite, just some quick calculation of correlations and conjectures of causation with no controlling for demographic or other factors. Until it's either in the news more or we get some solid statistical analysis, I don't think it belongs on the mainpage. -- Delirium 00:22, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
What is the "There were two kinds of issues section" in the intro trying to say? It makes no sense, is very confusingly worded and seems in opposition to the essense of the intro paragraphs. I vote for its removal or significant clean up. Zen Master 00:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exit polling is reliable and should be thought of as a check and balance against fraud (as I originally wrote in the article). That is why it is important to address the current election's "data irregularities" (assuming no fraud took place) because errors does NOT mean we should completely discount exit polling, instead we should figure out the irregularities to improve exit polling techniques for the next election (again, assuming no fraud took place this time). Completely discounting exit polling is an election fraudster's dream, but that does not mean to say exit polling can't be improved or that the data is not in fact wrong in this case. There should be more independent exit pollsters anyway, especially now that it has pointed to potential fraud ("they" will not make that mistake again [this time assuming there was fraud]) Zen Master 00:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Concur. The argument that the exit poll was simply flawed, according to statistical analysis performed by a former MIT professor, has a 1 in 50,000 chance of being sound. Kevin Baas | talk 00:50, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Mainstream opinion appears to be split on this. Turn on the TV and you'll hear people arguing the point. Wikipedia is not a site for original research, so if people are split on it, all we do is report that people are split on it. -- Delirium 02:03, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
I have de-linked this article from most of the visible encyclopedia articles (leaving talk pages, etc.). I strongly feel that this article is going in a direction we at Wikipedia do not want to go. We're not a news agency, we aren't a primary source. We cite reliable sources, and if that means we have to wait, then we wait. We do not need to be on the cutting edge. We need to wait until other reliable groups have made their analysis. This article is currently just a laundry list of external links (most to partisan sources), along with a lot of number-crunching done by a few very resourceful Wikipedians. This is not how we should be doing this, though. We must wait for other groups to come to their own conclusions, and then summarize those findings.
I supported Kerry, and I do worry about irregularities, but we are not here to do the work of those who have stronger issues with the election. Please join me in sourcing this article properly. At a future date, we should merge a minimal section into the main election coverage. Please don't let Wikipedia become a soapbox. Thank you all. -- Netoholic @ 04:46, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Can we hash this out on this page, rather than have an edit war? For instance, can we say how the data is unreliable? - Ta bu shi da yu 06:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In this section, Image:2004 us discrepancy.gif has no source information for the data used to make this chart. As such, the whole section should be removed since it is using this information to draw it's conclusions. -- Netoholic @ 15:05, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
I have requested this page be protected. Far too many reverts. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Here are two articles dealing with many claims listed in this entry - [15] [16]. They're from Slate and Salon, neither of which can be considered conservative, and agree that much of the speculation currently circulating is baseless.
Also, could somebody please find what exit poll was used for the "Exit Polls vs. Machine Tallies, by State (9 States)" graphic? It isn't the initial leaked results, is it? Those would be from far too early in the day to predict anything. Also, how come only nine states are displayed in it? Giving all the information would be far better. Finally, the charts themselves seem slightly deceitful, as the scale on some of them ends at 60 and others at 55.
If anybody can find final, raw exit poll data, that would be very interesting to compare to the official count. I think that comparisons with the exit poll data from past elections would also be helpful.
Unless someone can find information on those two CNN images, it might be best to ignore them for now. We don't know what reasoning might be behind them. Futhermore, we can't even know that they're genuine. Anyone could take a screenshot from CNN and edit them so the numbers say something different. If the veracity of the screenshots can be confirmed, they should be considered. If not, regard them with suspicion. -- Words to sell 09:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have tagged the article with what seems the most appropriate tag, {{Controversial3}}.
Controversial3 means:
This seems to describe the article perfectly. A large number of concerns have been agreed, and others remain still disputed.
Please sign below if you agree with this tag, in order that a consensus can be agreed and the article stops being revert/edited back and forth between no tag ("All OK"), "NPOV" and "totallydisputed". FT2 17:45, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
No, the "controversial" tag is one you just invented. It is watered down, and does not attract attention from people who watch for disputed articles. I dispute this article completely, and so I have placed the tag. Satisfy my concerns rather than watering them down. I insist that {{totallydisputed}} remain. --
Netoholic
@ 18:11, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
I object strongly to the above section title. I have asked that it be changed, since it implies wrong-doing on my part. I choose to leave it here as an example to others about how not to handle conflict. -- Netoholic @ 18:13, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
(To: Netoholic) - I am not even neccesarily against it, but when you go off and nominate images used on this election controversy page for deletion without mentioning it here on the talk page and even worse you requested a "speedy delete" when you are definitely aware there are numerous people that disagree with you tells me you may not understand or respect the wikipedia guidelines on controversy resolution. Here is your request: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Images_for_deletion#November_11 Even if the images are themselves unverifiable please give us time to find other sources for that data. Zen Master 16:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(PS - Ive removed the name from the title of the section as that really does make him look bad, for the sake of less friction and fairness. Hope it helps consensus building)
FT2 17:58, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Netaholic, describing matters that respected House Committee members saw fit to write not one but two letters to the GOA, where Federal Hearings have heard expert testimony as to the seriousness and potential for these issues, which can be found in the reputable printed national papers of many countries, where many thousands of individual American voters have stated they witnessed incidents that suggested the same personally, and where official data of the US government itself suggests an significant issue, as "partisan junk" suggests you are highly partial in this matter. Are you?
I have also looked up the guideline pages you cite. They state as follows:
Guideline Wikipedia:Cite sources states of opinions being used within Wiki articles: "If you consult an external source while writing an article, citing it is basic intellectual honesty. More than that, you should actively search for [but are not required to find] authoritative references to cite ... The main point is to help the reader * cite whatever you think will be most helpful. This applies when writing about opinions"
From this we conclude that Wiki's guides positively allow non-authoritative or partisan sources to be used (as they should for no source is guaranteed omniscient), and also explicitely allows citing of opinions. Provided their weaknesses if any are referred to in the article, the article itself will remain wiki-neutral. The only requirement is that the source, together with any clarification needed of its quality, is given, and with that I agree. Instead of reverting and complaining "its not neutral", why not ask yourself why users are re-adding things you delete, and then list here exactly the changes you want to see fixed so others can discuss rather than telling them "I'm doing this without consensus". FT2 18:32, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
The 'Opposing View' and discussion has been moved from the Vote page to the Talk page. At least it wasn't deleted. -- RyanFreisling
In the section about Floridian tallies actually going down for the democratic contender, the candidate is given as "Gore". Whether this is sneaky vandalism (and, no, I will not check the history for it) or whether the whole quotation and/or section is a spoof, it probably had best be soonest mended by someone who gives a fig. -- Cimon 19:57, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
even the opening template to say this page is controversial is contested? sheesh. -- kizzle 21:25, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
I think this edit just says it all: [17]
Kevin baas is putting his own debate into the news articles section, attempting to discredit articles which don't fit his already-chosen theory: "Discusses a report that claims to outline problems with the early exit poll data wich "skewed" the data, but only makes one unsubstantiated hypothesis that would skew the poll: Repulicans were more wary of pollers. Also makes unsubstantiated ad hominem attack on internet users."
Rhobite 21:33, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Rhobite, I attempted to go closer to neutral with my original posting of the two additional "debunk" articles. I changed the wording to "purporting to debunk" rather than "allegedly debunks" which reads too negatively, and not neutrally.
-- Radioastro 21:43, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
-- Radioastro 22:00, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rhobite, what I wrote was the truth. It takes about an elementary school education to know how to interpret poll numbers. there's nothing fancy or esoteric about it. and that unsubstantiated hypothesis is the only thing said in that article that could skew the data. I just don't want poeple to be misled. That article can be very misleading to a reader that doesn't employ critical thinking skills. Kevin Baas | talk 21:50, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Absolutely none of the suggestions above are the proper course to take in order to make this section, or this article better. Please read Wikipedia:Weasel words. -- Netoholic @ 21:55, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
This definitely should be cited. Is this just in one state or nationwide? is this counted from voteprotect.org logs? Kevin Baas | talk 22:11, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Until this is verified, I'm going to return it to the vague wording. Kevin Baas | talk 22:17, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
The article says 32. "Substantial" is not NPOV. If you have more cases, put in a cite, otherwise it's just editorializing.
I beg to differ. 32 is non-factual unless it is cited and supported.
"At least 32 have been reported" is more acceptable. Kevin Baas | talk 22:35, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
Here is the quote from the article that is sited to support the proposition: "The Election Protection Coalition received a total of 32 reports of touch-screen voters who selected one candidate only to have another show up on the summary screen, Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a coalition member."
There are other places that have probably recieved reports that have not been reported to the EPC. And the EIRS has been recieving about 350 reports a day. Kevin Baas | talk 22:43, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
[18] make that two. [19] Broward and Miami-Dade are very close. [20]