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Ive edited another article on 2004 United States presidential election recounts and legal challenges and i feel that we can merge the information here. This one wasent on the Afd but its related. I'll add the section about Ralph Nader as i think its better then what is currently here. Bonewah ( talk) 21:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
diff Do you really think all this belongs in a section about racial discrimination? Bonewah ( talk) 22:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 04:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
This claim
although the original procedure had stated that the voter was not required to provide a date of birth, a new rule issued a week after the election called for rejecting any provisional ballot that lacked a date of birth. [2]
only appears in www.thefreepress.org or in articles citing the same. Im a bit uncomfortable relying on a single, partisan source for such a claim when better ones should be available. Opinions? Bonewah ( talk) 20:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Bonewah has removed one of the citations to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s comprehensive analysis of the problems with the election. Bonewah asks in ES, "is RS really a reliable source for anything?" I have no problems with Rolling Stone as a reliable source, especially when it's an article by a well-known attorney. Furthermore, it's cited for the proposition that the issues raised included the accuracy and reliability of voting machines. Kennedy's article is a mixture of fact and opinion, and, as to the opinion part, WP:NPOV calls for us to report facts about opinions. JamesMLane t c 17:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I added a POV template to this article. It appears to be slanted and loaded with weasel words. -- Amwestover ( talk) 18:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Why isn't this article in a category? 71.126.173.180 ( talk) 23:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
This seems to be awfully one sided. I'm not sure how much to add though. Any suggestions? Soxwon ( talk) 23:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Agrees to Settle “Ballot Security” Suit, Bill Peterson, THE WASHINGTON POST, July 24, 1987 5 Kerry-Edwards/DNC “Colorado Election Day Manual: A Detailed Guide To Voting In Colorado,” November 2004 (Exhibit A) 6 Manual Reveals Voting Tactics, Lucy Morgan, ST. PETERSBURG TIMES, October 15, 2004 55 Democratic National Committee, McAuliffe Letter Demands Answers From Gillespie On RNC Funded Vote Fraud, Press Release, October 13, 2005 56 CNN’s “Late Edition,” October 24, 2003 57 NAACP National Voter Fund, NAACP Chairman Julian Bond Headlines Get-Out-The-Vote Rally/Town Hall Meeting, Press Release, October 29, 2004 58 Sen. Clinton In S.F., Mary Anne Ostrom, SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS, October 16, 2004 59 Edwards: Republicans Will Be ‘Up To Their Old Tricks,’ Liz Sidoti, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, October 16, 2004 60 Milwaukee Criminal Complaint attached as Exhibit E 61 5 Charged In GOP Tire Slashings, Derrick Nunnally, MILWAUKEE JOURNAL SENTINEL, January 25, 2005 62 Federal Election Commission Website, www.fec.gov, Accessed April 6, 2005 63 Milwaukee Criminal Complaint 70 Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald (D-CA), U.S. House Committee On House Administration Hearing, Columbus, OH, March 21, 2005 71 See Ohio Republican Party v. Marion County Democratic Party et al., Marion County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CV 0791. (Exhibit F) 77 See November 2, 2004, Order on Motion for Temporary Injunction, J. Thomas Monk, and All Those Persons Similarly Situated Throughout the State of Florida v. Democratic National Committee, Democratic Executive Committee of Seminole County, and the Florida Democratic Party, 04-CA-2312-16-L. (Exhibit G) 78 Poll Watchers Will Keep Their Eyes On Florida, Jeff Kunerth, ORLANDO SENTINEL, October 30, 2004 79 DNC’s “IMPORTANT LEGAL NOTICE” Distributed To Republican Poll Observers In Florida (Exhibit H) 80 See November 2, 2004, Order on Motion for Temporary Injunction, J. Thomas Monk, and All Those Persons Similarly Situated Throughout the State of Florida v. Democratic National Committee, Democratic Executive Committee of Seminole County, and the Florida Democratic Party, 04-CA-2312-16-L. 82 See Democratic National Committee, et al. v. J. Thomas Monk, District Court of Appeal of the State of Florida Fifth District, Case No. 5D04-3642. (Exhibit I) 83 Full transcript of Sandler call attached as Exhibit J 84 See Timms et al. v. MoveOn.org, Franklin County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CVH11 011533. (Exhibit K) 87 See Metzger v. Doe, Lucas County Common Pleas Court, Case No. 04-1540. (Exhibit L) 29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soxwon ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Can you guys resolve this via talk page, rather then the Edit summary? Thanks in advance. Bonewah ( talk) 14:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
The Marion County Common Pleas Court issued a temporary restraining order against the Marion and Greene County Democratic Parties, the Ohio Democratic Party and America Coming Together (ACT) enjoining them from making inaccurate and deceptive phone calls to targeted voters.71 The judge originally assigned to the case recused himself because he had “personally received a phone call” like the one described by the plaintiff in which incorrect information about date of the election and polling place was given, a point he noted in the Judgment Entry he signed effectuating his recusal. The Ohio Supreme Court appointed a visiting judge to hear the case who then issued a temporary restraining order against the county and state Democrat parties and against ACT. 71 See Ohio Republican Party v. Marion County Democratic Party et al., Marion County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CV 0791. (Exhibit F)
On Election Day 2004, a Seminole County, Florida, court stopped the DNC and state Democratic Party from “further intimidation” and dissemination of materials that were “designed or intended to intimidate or unduly threaten the activities of poll watchers” organized by the Florida Republican Party.77 77 See November 2, 2004, Order on Motion for Temporary Injunction, J. Thomas Monk, and All Those Similarly Situated Throughout the State of Florida v. Democratic National Committee, Democratic Executive Committee of Seminole County, and the Florida Democratic Party, 04-CA-2312-16-L. (Exhibit G)
On Election Day, individuals in Franklin County, Ohio, were threatened and harassed at their polling places by agents of MoveOn.org after being asked about their voting preference and revealing their intention to vote Republican. Similar situations are alleged to have occurred elsewhere around the state and prompted a lawsuit filed in the Franklin County Common Pleas Court. Voters were intimidated by MoveOn.org in an attempt to dissuade them from voting for George W. Bush or in an attempt to harass them after they voted.84 Examples of such intimidation include one plaintiff who arrived at his polling place and was called over to a table operated by MoveOn.org that promised “Free Coffee.” The plaintiff asked for a cup of coffee, was asked if he would voter for Kerry, and responded that he would not. The person at the table refused him a cup of coffee. The plaintiff then noticed that particular individual and others standing near the plaintiff’s car. When he exited the polling place, the MoveOn.org table was placed in front of his car, blocking his exit. When he asked them to move, the individuals harassed him, took his picture and recorded his license plate.85 Another voter noticed a loud and boisterous gentleman at her polling place wearing a “Voting Rights Staff” badge and standing well within 100 feet of the polling place. In fact, he stood right outside one plaintiff’s voting booth and told her that she only had a few seconds left and needed to make her final vote. These plaintiffs sought, and received, a temporary restraining order against MoveOn.org. The complaint has subsequently been amended to include allegations of similar acts by agents of MoveOn.org that occurred elsewhere in the state.86 See Metzger v. Doe, Lucas County Common Pleas Court, Case No. 04-1540. (Exhibit L)
I can also start listing the AP and other articles from major news sources. I don't see why this keeps getting taken out. Soxwon ( talk) 19:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I've added several more specific events along with their original sources. If there aren't any objections I'll continue. I think that it's important to show there was fraud on BOTH sides. Soxwon ( talk) 16:03, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:NPOV, we report facts, including facts about prominent opinions. On that basis, I've restored the reference to Greg Palast's conclusion about the 2004 election. I haven't yet had time to look at numerous other deletions, but restoring that one is particularly important because the linked article gives the reader valuable additional information about the 2004 controversies. JamesMLane t c 00:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The article now merits a POV tag through omission. Extensive material, properly cited and well-documented, has been removed, all to the effect of making criticisms of the election seem unsubstantiated. Of course, part of the problem is the out-of-process deletion of the detailed articles that this one was intended to summarize. Even aside from that, though, the changes made in the last several weeks are, for the most part, improper.
At the moment I don't have time to try to correct the suppression of information. For that reason, I'm not appending the fully justified POV tag. I make this comment only so that no one later makes a false claim of "consensus" or says that a particular passage has been that way without objection for a long time.
I'll mention one particular point: alleged absence of citations. In some instances, they may be found in the detailed daughter articles (because, as I said, this one was merely the summary). In other instances, links aren't currently correct. When Wikipedians have taken the time and effort to research a subject, write a suitably encyclopedic treatment, and provide a citation, it's very questionable practice to delete the entire passage merely because the link doesn't currently work. The Internet Archive exists. By my lights, this edit should not have been made, given that the NAACP's "Jim Crow" report is readily available here, as could be found simply by plugging the dead link into the Wayback Machine. JamesMLane t c 21:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the line "A St. Petersburg Times Article found 27,000 people registered in both Ohio and in Florida, with 400 voting in both states consistently in the previous four years." because it was not supported by the reference provided: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/26/Decision2004/Fraud_issues_haunt_ca.shtml 14:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC) Bonewah ( talk) 14:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Ive edited another article on 2004 United States presidential election recounts and legal challenges and i feel that we can merge the information here. This one wasent on the Afd but its related. I'll add the section about Ralph Nader as i think its better then what is currently here. Bonewah ( talk) 21:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
diff Do you really think all this belongs in a section about racial discrimination? Bonewah ( talk) 22:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 04:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
This claim
although the original procedure had stated that the voter was not required to provide a date of birth, a new rule issued a week after the election called for rejecting any provisional ballot that lacked a date of birth. [2]
only appears in www.thefreepress.org or in articles citing the same. Im a bit uncomfortable relying on a single, partisan source for such a claim when better ones should be available. Opinions? Bonewah ( talk) 20:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Bonewah has removed one of the citations to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s comprehensive analysis of the problems with the election. Bonewah asks in ES, "is RS really a reliable source for anything?" I have no problems with Rolling Stone as a reliable source, especially when it's an article by a well-known attorney. Furthermore, it's cited for the proposition that the issues raised included the accuracy and reliability of voting machines. Kennedy's article is a mixture of fact and opinion, and, as to the opinion part, WP:NPOV calls for us to report facts about opinions. JamesMLane t c 17:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I added a POV template to this article. It appears to be slanted and loaded with weasel words. -- Amwestover ( talk) 18:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Why isn't this article in a category? 71.126.173.180 ( talk) 23:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
This seems to be awfully one sided. I'm not sure how much to add though. Any suggestions? Soxwon ( talk) 23:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Agrees to Settle “Ballot Security” Suit, Bill Peterson, THE WASHINGTON POST, July 24, 1987 5 Kerry-Edwards/DNC “Colorado Election Day Manual: A Detailed Guide To Voting In Colorado,” November 2004 (Exhibit A) 6 Manual Reveals Voting Tactics, Lucy Morgan, ST. PETERSBURG TIMES, October 15, 2004 55 Democratic National Committee, McAuliffe Letter Demands Answers From Gillespie On RNC Funded Vote Fraud, Press Release, October 13, 2005 56 CNN’s “Late Edition,” October 24, 2003 57 NAACP National Voter Fund, NAACP Chairman Julian Bond Headlines Get-Out-The-Vote Rally/Town Hall Meeting, Press Release, October 29, 2004 58 Sen. Clinton In S.F., Mary Anne Ostrom, SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS, October 16, 2004 59 Edwards: Republicans Will Be ‘Up To Their Old Tricks,’ Liz Sidoti, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, October 16, 2004 60 Milwaukee Criminal Complaint attached as Exhibit E 61 5 Charged In GOP Tire Slashings, Derrick Nunnally, MILWAUKEE JOURNAL SENTINEL, January 25, 2005 62 Federal Election Commission Website, www.fec.gov, Accessed April 6, 2005 63 Milwaukee Criminal Complaint 70 Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald (D-CA), U.S. House Committee On House Administration Hearing, Columbus, OH, March 21, 2005 71 See Ohio Republican Party v. Marion County Democratic Party et al., Marion County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CV 0791. (Exhibit F) 77 See November 2, 2004, Order on Motion for Temporary Injunction, J. Thomas Monk, and All Those Persons Similarly Situated Throughout the State of Florida v. Democratic National Committee, Democratic Executive Committee of Seminole County, and the Florida Democratic Party, 04-CA-2312-16-L. (Exhibit G) 78 Poll Watchers Will Keep Their Eyes On Florida, Jeff Kunerth, ORLANDO SENTINEL, October 30, 2004 79 DNC’s “IMPORTANT LEGAL NOTICE” Distributed To Republican Poll Observers In Florida (Exhibit H) 80 See November 2, 2004, Order on Motion for Temporary Injunction, J. Thomas Monk, and All Those Persons Similarly Situated Throughout the State of Florida v. Democratic National Committee, Democratic Executive Committee of Seminole County, and the Florida Democratic Party, 04-CA-2312-16-L. 82 See Democratic National Committee, et al. v. J. Thomas Monk, District Court of Appeal of the State of Florida Fifth District, Case No. 5D04-3642. (Exhibit I) 83 Full transcript of Sandler call attached as Exhibit J 84 See Timms et al. v. MoveOn.org, Franklin County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CVH11 011533. (Exhibit K) 87 See Metzger v. Doe, Lucas County Common Pleas Court, Case No. 04-1540. (Exhibit L) 29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soxwon ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Can you guys resolve this via talk page, rather then the Edit summary? Thanks in advance. Bonewah ( talk) 14:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
The Marion County Common Pleas Court issued a temporary restraining order against the Marion and Greene County Democratic Parties, the Ohio Democratic Party and America Coming Together (ACT) enjoining them from making inaccurate and deceptive phone calls to targeted voters.71 The judge originally assigned to the case recused himself because he had “personally received a phone call” like the one described by the plaintiff in which incorrect information about date of the election and polling place was given, a point he noted in the Judgment Entry he signed effectuating his recusal. The Ohio Supreme Court appointed a visiting judge to hear the case who then issued a temporary restraining order against the county and state Democrat parties and against ACT. 71 See Ohio Republican Party v. Marion County Democratic Party et al., Marion County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CV 0791. (Exhibit F)
On Election Day 2004, a Seminole County, Florida, court stopped the DNC and state Democratic Party from “further intimidation” and dissemination of materials that were “designed or intended to intimidate or unduly threaten the activities of poll watchers” organized by the Florida Republican Party.77 77 See November 2, 2004, Order on Motion for Temporary Injunction, J. Thomas Monk, and All Those Similarly Situated Throughout the State of Florida v. Democratic National Committee, Democratic Executive Committee of Seminole County, and the Florida Democratic Party, 04-CA-2312-16-L. (Exhibit G)
On Election Day, individuals in Franklin County, Ohio, were threatened and harassed at their polling places by agents of MoveOn.org after being asked about their voting preference and revealing their intention to vote Republican. Similar situations are alleged to have occurred elsewhere around the state and prompted a lawsuit filed in the Franklin County Common Pleas Court. Voters were intimidated by MoveOn.org in an attempt to dissuade them from voting for George W. Bush or in an attempt to harass them after they voted.84 Examples of such intimidation include one plaintiff who arrived at his polling place and was called over to a table operated by MoveOn.org that promised “Free Coffee.” The plaintiff asked for a cup of coffee, was asked if he would voter for Kerry, and responded that he would not. The person at the table refused him a cup of coffee. The plaintiff then noticed that particular individual and others standing near the plaintiff’s car. When he exited the polling place, the MoveOn.org table was placed in front of his car, blocking his exit. When he asked them to move, the individuals harassed him, took his picture and recorded his license plate.85 Another voter noticed a loud and boisterous gentleman at her polling place wearing a “Voting Rights Staff” badge and standing well within 100 feet of the polling place. In fact, he stood right outside one plaintiff’s voting booth and told her that she only had a few seconds left and needed to make her final vote. These plaintiffs sought, and received, a temporary restraining order against MoveOn.org. The complaint has subsequently been amended to include allegations of similar acts by agents of MoveOn.org that occurred elsewhere in the state.86 See Metzger v. Doe, Lucas County Common Pleas Court, Case No. 04-1540. (Exhibit L)
I can also start listing the AP and other articles from major news sources. I don't see why this keeps getting taken out. Soxwon ( talk) 19:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I've added several more specific events along with their original sources. If there aren't any objections I'll continue. I think that it's important to show there was fraud on BOTH sides. Soxwon ( talk) 16:03, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:NPOV, we report facts, including facts about prominent opinions. On that basis, I've restored the reference to Greg Palast's conclusion about the 2004 election. I haven't yet had time to look at numerous other deletions, but restoring that one is particularly important because the linked article gives the reader valuable additional information about the 2004 controversies. JamesMLane t c 00:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The article now merits a POV tag through omission. Extensive material, properly cited and well-documented, has been removed, all to the effect of making criticisms of the election seem unsubstantiated. Of course, part of the problem is the out-of-process deletion of the detailed articles that this one was intended to summarize. Even aside from that, though, the changes made in the last several weeks are, for the most part, improper.
At the moment I don't have time to try to correct the suppression of information. For that reason, I'm not appending the fully justified POV tag. I make this comment only so that no one later makes a false claim of "consensus" or says that a particular passage has been that way without objection for a long time.
I'll mention one particular point: alleged absence of citations. In some instances, they may be found in the detailed daughter articles (because, as I said, this one was merely the summary). In other instances, links aren't currently correct. When Wikipedians have taken the time and effort to research a subject, write a suitably encyclopedic treatment, and provide a citation, it's very questionable practice to delete the entire passage merely because the link doesn't currently work. The Internet Archive exists. By my lights, this edit should not have been made, given that the NAACP's "Jim Crow" report is readily available here, as could be found simply by plugging the dead link into the Wayback Machine. JamesMLane t c 21:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the line "A St. Petersburg Times Article found 27,000 people registered in both Ohio and in Florida, with 400 voting in both states consistently in the previous four years." because it was not supported by the reference provided: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/26/Decision2004/Fraud_issues_haunt_ca.shtml 14:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC) Bonewah ( talk) 14:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)