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Seems strange to include items from the campaign; would probably be better to separate the campaign from the election itself. 70.48.7.249 04:58, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps "List of things people who hate the results might say about the U.S. Presidential Election, 2004" would be a better title. Why else would the "Bush was wired" gripe be here? It's neither a voting irregularity nor a misrepresentation. And a list such as this really ought to state exactly who the "alligator" was. - Nunh-huh 05:00, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Note on wording, if needed: An aberration means "A deviation from the proper or expected course" or "A departure from the normal or typical". An anomaly or anomalous result means "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule" or "One that is peculiar, irregular, abnormal, or difficult to classify". The distinction is that an anomaly is more a "this looks odd", whereas an aberration is more where it is confirmed there is an actual deviation of some kind from the expected. (Source: Dictionary.com)
The title and headings of this article seem capitalized beyond the manual of style. Is there a reason for this, or can they be fixed and the page moved? Cool Hand Luke 08:12, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Pedant - you added 3 issues, namely:
I've found and added a source for the 3rd, can you find a website source and county location for the 2nd?
Also the 1st of these seems a bit vague and might have been covered by information in the section "Evidence of electronic voting bias". Can you check if it is, find a source, or tighten it up by specifying what kind of "discrepancies"? Thanks FT2 14:04, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
How about just "Controversies with 20004 US Presdidential Election", or "2004 US Presidential Election Suspicious Activity", or even better "2004 US Election Irregularities", or "2004 US Election Fraud Theories" there may be irregularities outside the presidential part of the election. The electronic voting machines issues could be put into their own article. Zen Master 16:53, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A word like "controversy" doesnt do it for me. The subject of this article isnt discussion of a "controversy" (such as different views on "Do aliens exist" or "Was the election fixed"). Its an article summarising evidence, listing item by item specific irregularities and misrepresentations alleged to have taken place during the election, not an analysis or discussion of any controversy which may or may not have resulted from it. (A bit like an article summarising and referencing evidence such as Nazi orders, Mein Kampf, Zyklon purchases and photos of bodies, as distinct from the controversy "Did the Holocaust take place"). FT2 22:08, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
I would think '2004 U.S. Election Controversies' is fine. Controversies suggest (to me at least) something that is was questionable or unorthodox. But it also suggest public uproar. As far as I see it, there is no public uproar. But 'irregularities' suggest voting and 'misrepresentation' refers only to a small part of the campaign. 'Problem' seems too vague to me. Jonked Nov. 6, 2004
2004 US President Election Complaints? Rhobile 12:36, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is this section really needed? It seems a little unrelated to me. Perhaps it should be added to a page on Political Humor? Jonked
I agree. It is not necessary to document every idea even remotely connected to the 2004 election. Why not have a section titled, "Opinions of the 2004 election from people who Jacob Winters knows now, but did now know prior to the 2000 election"? Obviously, the line must be drawn somewhere. Jwinters
I removed it. I didn't see any place to move it to though. Jonked Nov. 6, 2004
We should put these figures on the page: [3]
To show why it's such a hot topic. We should also calculate the statistical likilihood that this happened by chance. Does anyone know the sample size of the exit polls, or the error margin? Kevin Baas | talk 23:13, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)
Um, what do those numbers mean? If we are going to add it, it's going to need it to be a little clearer. Jonked
I just noticed there are "other" non "in progress" 2004 US election pages that don't go into much detail about any of the controversies (or have links). Should an effort be undertaken to combine the pages or share the info? Currently the page U.S._Presidential_Election,_2004 is linked to from the Main Page/front door. Zen Master 01:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) (links fixed - FT2)
Clarification, I meant to say there were discrepencies between the "in progress" election page and the non in progress pages (presidental, house, senate), not "this" allegations page. I.E. differences between these two pages 2004_U.S._election_in_progress and U.S._presidential_election,_2004 and the senate and house pages too. That presidential article is currently the election page linked to from the Main Page/Front Door.... There is no reason that page needs to have a comma in its title Zen Master 02:13, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Those other pages have their own purposes:
This is not a discussion of the election, neither is the election article a full summary of evidence of irregularities. They're connected though but separate. Hope that helps. FT2 16:38, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
New Title suggestion by Rhobile moved to "Title" section. FT2
Title changed to "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities" FT2 17:48, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
See below, I've asked Kevin Baas if he can work another wonder like he did with the current maps, on exit vs popular voting from other elections and issues too. FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Zen-master commented out the sections related to different areas of non-vote irregularities, on the basis they "cluttered up the point of the article and was inappropriately located here". I can see his point, and agree the article is cleaner as a result. But nonetheless knowledge and information pertaining to election questions has been lost. As Zen-master says, "inappropriately located here" ... where should evidenced and supported matters such as these be put? (the original text is here, see sections 3 and 4) FT2 17:44, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone know a way to get a map showing the differences between (exit poll figures) and (official votes cast)? The question's sparked by the maps added by User:Kevin baas, what I'm looking for (and haven't seen yet) is a similar map. Anyone got any ideas? I believe theres already a link on the page sourcing some exit poll and final vote figures for different states, but I dont know if its sufficient.
It would be helpful to show comparative maps of the difference between voting according to exit polls, and voting according to machine, and compare that to a map picking out swing and nonswing (or republican and democrat) states. FT2 18:12, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
I heard somewhere that there was a correlation between accuracy of initial exit polls and whether or not the county used electronic voting (or maybe a specific type of electronic voting)... anyone know anything about this or just wishful thinking? -- kizzle 21:37, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
The complaints and insinuations about exit polling are unfounded. 216.153.214.94 22:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
216.153.214.94071404, I am not convinced. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:08, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's a good job that we aren't arbitrating which of your POV's are "right", so much as summarising relevant public domain information which could be used to gain a deeper understanding of the issue then. FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
One user added an NPOV tag, citing that it was "very anti-bush" and did not contain their responses.
I have removed this tag, my reasons being basically, this is not an advocacy article. It does not take sides. It lists certain statements, depositions, sourced facts and verified matters which taken together are evidence for or against claims that some irregularities may have occurred. So the objection that one side has not yet posted an advocacy rebuttal is irrelevant. This article is not discussing the controversy, it is summarising the documentary, expert, testimonial and forensic evidence upon which any such controversy would be based.
On occasion personal statements by individuals (including Mr Bush) are included, where necessary the article also attempts to summarise points for and against the reliability of such statements, as evidence. (A couple of times this has been done by noting the statement was made by a Kerry supporter or a Bush supporter, so that its POV if any can be assessed by the reader)
Thus the criteria for this article is not "what each side says", and no responses by either "side" are needed to make it neutral. The neutrality criteria is (1) that the information contained must be accurate capable of verification, and must be sourced, and (2) that evidence of irregularities and evidence that there were not irregularities are both fairly represented. Any item listed in this evidence which later turns out to be incorrect or suspect as to accuracy, should be removed or updated.
Should any person on either side wish to add any kind of evidence that the election was not in fact irregular, evidence that the voting machines were in fact not subject to irregularities, evidence that any item on this article is inaccurate, or evidence that any expert statement is implausible and suspect, then that should be added to this article. FT2 17:21, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Seems strange to include items from the campaign; would probably be better to separate the campaign from the election itself. 70.48.7.249 04:58, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps "List of things people who hate the results might say about the U.S. Presidential Election, 2004" would be a better title. Why else would the "Bush was wired" gripe be here? It's neither a voting irregularity nor a misrepresentation. And a list such as this really ought to state exactly who the "alligator" was. - Nunh-huh 05:00, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Note on wording, if needed: An aberration means "A deviation from the proper or expected course" or "A departure from the normal or typical". An anomaly or anomalous result means "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule" or "One that is peculiar, irregular, abnormal, or difficult to classify". The distinction is that an anomaly is more a "this looks odd", whereas an aberration is more where it is confirmed there is an actual deviation of some kind from the expected. (Source: Dictionary.com)
The title and headings of this article seem capitalized beyond the manual of style. Is there a reason for this, or can they be fixed and the page moved? Cool Hand Luke 08:12, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Pedant - you added 3 issues, namely:
I've found and added a source for the 3rd, can you find a website source and county location for the 2nd?
Also the 1st of these seems a bit vague and might have been covered by information in the section "Evidence of electronic voting bias". Can you check if it is, find a source, or tighten it up by specifying what kind of "discrepancies"? Thanks FT2 14:04, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
How about just "Controversies with 20004 US Presdidential Election", or "2004 US Presidential Election Suspicious Activity", or even better "2004 US Election Irregularities", or "2004 US Election Fraud Theories" there may be irregularities outside the presidential part of the election. The electronic voting machines issues could be put into their own article. Zen Master 16:53, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A word like "controversy" doesnt do it for me. The subject of this article isnt discussion of a "controversy" (such as different views on "Do aliens exist" or "Was the election fixed"). Its an article summarising evidence, listing item by item specific irregularities and misrepresentations alleged to have taken place during the election, not an analysis or discussion of any controversy which may or may not have resulted from it. (A bit like an article summarising and referencing evidence such as Nazi orders, Mein Kampf, Zyklon purchases and photos of bodies, as distinct from the controversy "Did the Holocaust take place"). FT2 22:08, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
I would think '2004 U.S. Election Controversies' is fine. Controversies suggest (to me at least) something that is was questionable or unorthodox. But it also suggest public uproar. As far as I see it, there is no public uproar. But 'irregularities' suggest voting and 'misrepresentation' refers only to a small part of the campaign. 'Problem' seems too vague to me. Jonked Nov. 6, 2004
2004 US President Election Complaints? Rhobile 12:36, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is this section really needed? It seems a little unrelated to me. Perhaps it should be added to a page on Political Humor? Jonked
I agree. It is not necessary to document every idea even remotely connected to the 2004 election. Why not have a section titled, "Opinions of the 2004 election from people who Jacob Winters knows now, but did now know prior to the 2000 election"? Obviously, the line must be drawn somewhere. Jwinters
I removed it. I didn't see any place to move it to though. Jonked Nov. 6, 2004
We should put these figures on the page: [3]
To show why it's such a hot topic. We should also calculate the statistical likilihood that this happened by chance. Does anyone know the sample size of the exit polls, or the error margin? Kevin Baas | talk 23:13, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)
Um, what do those numbers mean? If we are going to add it, it's going to need it to be a little clearer. Jonked
I just noticed there are "other" non "in progress" 2004 US election pages that don't go into much detail about any of the controversies (or have links). Should an effort be undertaken to combine the pages or share the info? Currently the page U.S._Presidential_Election,_2004 is linked to from the Main Page/front door. Zen Master 01:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) (links fixed - FT2)
Clarification, I meant to say there were discrepencies between the "in progress" election page and the non in progress pages (presidental, house, senate), not "this" allegations page. I.E. differences between these two pages 2004_U.S._election_in_progress and U.S._presidential_election,_2004 and the senate and house pages too. That presidential article is currently the election page linked to from the Main Page/Front Door.... There is no reason that page needs to have a comma in its title Zen Master 02:13, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Those other pages have their own purposes:
This is not a discussion of the election, neither is the election article a full summary of evidence of irregularities. They're connected though but separate. Hope that helps. FT2 16:38, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
New Title suggestion by Rhobile moved to "Title" section. FT2
Title changed to "2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities" FT2 17:48, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
See below, I've asked Kevin Baas if he can work another wonder like he did with the current maps, on exit vs popular voting from other elections and issues too. FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Zen-master commented out the sections related to different areas of non-vote irregularities, on the basis they "cluttered up the point of the article and was inappropriately located here". I can see his point, and agree the article is cleaner as a result. But nonetheless knowledge and information pertaining to election questions has been lost. As Zen-master says, "inappropriately located here" ... where should evidenced and supported matters such as these be put? (the original text is here, see sections 3 and 4) FT2 17:44, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone know a way to get a map showing the differences between (exit poll figures) and (official votes cast)? The question's sparked by the maps added by User:Kevin baas, what I'm looking for (and haven't seen yet) is a similar map. Anyone got any ideas? I believe theres already a link on the page sourcing some exit poll and final vote figures for different states, but I dont know if its sufficient.
It would be helpful to show comparative maps of the difference between voting according to exit polls, and voting according to machine, and compare that to a map picking out swing and nonswing (or republican and democrat) states. FT2 18:12, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
I heard somewhere that there was a correlation between accuracy of initial exit polls and whether or not the county used electronic voting (or maybe a specific type of electronic voting)... anyone know anything about this or just wishful thinking? -- kizzle 21:37, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
The complaints and insinuations about exit polling are unfounded. 216.153.214.94 22:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
216.153.214.94071404, I am not convinced. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:08, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's a good job that we aren't arbitrating which of your POV's are "right", so much as summarising relevant public domain information which could be used to gain a deeper understanding of the issue then. FT2 15:22, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
One user added an NPOV tag, citing that it was "very anti-bush" and did not contain their responses.
I have removed this tag, my reasons being basically, this is not an advocacy article. It does not take sides. It lists certain statements, depositions, sourced facts and verified matters which taken together are evidence for or against claims that some irregularities may have occurred. So the objection that one side has not yet posted an advocacy rebuttal is irrelevant. This article is not discussing the controversy, it is summarising the documentary, expert, testimonial and forensic evidence upon which any such controversy would be based.
On occasion personal statements by individuals (including Mr Bush) are included, where necessary the article also attempts to summarise points for and against the reliability of such statements, as evidence. (A couple of times this has been done by noting the statement was made by a Kerry supporter or a Bush supporter, so that its POV if any can be assessed by the reader)
Thus the criteria for this article is not "what each side says", and no responses by either "side" are needed to make it neutral. The neutrality criteria is (1) that the information contained must be accurate capable of verification, and must be sourced, and (2) that evidence of irregularities and evidence that there were not irregularities are both fairly represented. Any item listed in this evidence which later turns out to be incorrect or suspect as to accuracy, should be removed or updated.
Should any person on either side wish to add any kind of evidence that the election was not in fact irregular, evidence that the voting machines were in fact not subject to irregularities, evidence that any item on this article is inaccurate, or evidence that any expert statement is implausible and suspect, then that should be added to this article. FT2 17:21, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)