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I suggest a section of the page be identified to be moved to its own page. This is because the page's length has exceded suggested guidelines. I suggest that the section about News Reporting be considered for being created as its own seperate page linked to the main page. This section can be viewed as its own topic, and consists of substantial length. Comp8956 01:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
2003 Invasion of Iraq → Liberation of Iraq - PoLaR 23:19, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 10:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
See Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Archive 1#Moronic page move request
Yes, unfortunately, the majority of the world would have been against the invasion even if the Left's hero Hans Blix said that he found gobs of WMD's. For some reason the (non-Islamic) world has become pacifist at any cost.
A comment from the WP:RM page:
See Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Archive 1#vote on new title This earlier WP:RM vote was only concluded at the end of April and IMHO it is too soon for another vote -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Why can it just be referred to in the neutral term 2003 Iraq War or Iraq War of 2003??
This page should be left as 2003 invasion of Iraq, not the liberation of Iraq. This is an obvious way to make the war seem justified. It could be worse. It could be "the occupation of Iraq" or the "illegal actions of the US in Iraq". The current title is accurate, since the US did invade Iraq, whereas Iraq these days doesn't seem very liberated.
hhamdy283 08-05-2005
It is clear that "Iraq War of Liberation" is POV and similarly, "Iraq Invasion" is also POV; both of these titles are readily used in propaganda for partisans of the various sides.
The above references to popular opinion polls are irrelevant; the current passions of the day bear absolutely no weight on providing a descriptive title. The judgment of the relative value of this war will have to be made later. Jkp1187 04:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I was the original one over the past few days that argued that this article should have a POV warning. And I still believe it should. I have made some changes that I think help to bring a more neutral POV to the article, but I still see a lot of POV. And not just Leftist POV, the whole "media coverage" section seems like a tit for tat game of sniping comments. It's really pretty embarassing to read. Obviously this event has been a polarizing one in history. I don't think we will ever achieve total neutrality as long as the public can continue to edit it. 24.128.88.42 02:04, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Looking over his History the Only change 24.128.88.42 has implemented on this article was to add a NPOV tag. And his One other comment in this entire discussion page [1] strikes me as extreme to say the least. Reading over the Media Coverage section I see no blaring advocacy to warrant a NPOV tag. In fact compared to other encyclopedia entries on this subject [2] [3] Wikipedia's entry pretty much follows suit and is fairly neutral. So I'm taking down the NPOV tag. 68.199.46.6 06:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Please note that I may edit from a variety of different IP addresses depending on when I find time to check this article. I put back the POV tag. 12.25.1.161 17:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the article is POV. Why don't you people that what the pov-Tag give quotes and examples on WHAT PARTS are POV ? -- 82.83.71.5 17:55, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I have checked the individual matériel mentionned in the article [7] as proof that Iraq had substential weaponry, only to find that they are either small weapons, like shoulder-launcher anti-air missiles, elderly systems ("the task of knocking out the Iraqi T-55 tanks and armored vehicles appeared to be extremely difficult!" (sic)), or systems which were said to be present in Iraq but turned out not to be ( Kolchuga Radar). The date of the article, 5 April 2003, makes me wonder whether it can possibly have the distance needed to accurately portray the situation. Rama 06:57, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Every single description I've seen of the Iraq Army after the First Persian Gulf War, refers to it as "poorly-equipped". Even your own sources do not refer to the Iraqi army as having "mixed levels of equipment and readiness". The best summary I've been able to find so far is from GlobalSecurity.org: "Overall, Iraq's army is seen as poorly equipped after the battering it took in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war and the 1991 Gulf War - and after the country was subjected to more than a decade of trade sanctions imposed because of its 1990 invasion of Kuwait." [8]. Here's a more detailed analysis by CDI thats states that Iraq had "half of all Army equipment lacking spare parts" [9]. There was even an incident where Iraqi troops tried to surrender, Before the war even started, and they were described by the British soldiers who encountered them as: "a motley bunch and you could barely describe them as soldiers - they were poorly equipped and didn't even have proper boots. Their physical condition was dreadful and they had obviously not had a square meal for ages." [10]. I don't care what your sources say about "illegally obtained weapons", because it's pretty clear that the Iraqi military of 2003 had trouble feeding and clothing it's soldiers, much less properly equipping them for war. And so I'm changing back the article. 68.199.46.6 05:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
The US is not better equiped than other world powers. Russia has the most nukes and tanks. France has a very modernized military. Germany has the superior LeopardII. China(PRC) has the largest air force. The US needed The UK's help in modern wars. South and North Korea have the 2 largest militaries(no. of troops) any nation with nukes is a match for the US Russia could be making their military look smaller and out dated,just a theory. Dudtz 8/25/05 5:05 PM EST
It's not that the weapons are of poor quality,It is because of poor Iraqi tatics. Soviet/Russian weapons are meant for Soviet/Russian Tatics. Soviet/Russian tatics for tanks is to build a mid priced tank(excluding T-90) and build allot of them. The US military isn't too good at their tank tatics for fighting another superpower. US soldiers think that a T-55 is going to stay still out in the open so they can hit it with an Anti tank gun or rocket. Dudtz 9/25/05 7:57 PM EST
RonCram suggested on another page that this article be split as follows:
"Perhaps the 2003 invasion of Iraq article would only deal with the dates, military tactics and subsequent capture of Saddam (all clear cut facts without dispute) and leave all the controversial subjects to the controversy article?"
(the subsequent discussion is copied here)
RonCram: yes, excellent idea, I think the 2003 invasion of Iraq should deal entirely with hard info, the vast amount of junk about justifications, counter-justifications, accusations, etc etc should be in a separate article. Post it on that article's talk page, I will support such a split. Basically the "Rationale" and "Opinion and Legality" sections should be split off. Also the most of the "Media Coverage" section needs to be moved to the article which is already dedicated to that. ObsidianOrder 07:05, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we take the example of Polish September Campaign ? The subjects have much in common: a swift military campain, controversial prelude, strong political implications (I mean compared to a single battle withing a larger war like, say, Monte Cassino). Rama 14:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
If there is another article dedicated exclusively to
media coverage of the invasion, why is its treatment so lengthy here? I would think a synopsis of the main article be produced instead, with any additional info contained here inserted in the other article as appropriate. This would help make the article a little less of a quagmire.
Daniel Collins
21:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph is experiencing a tug of war of edits over the number of the number of members of the coalition of the willing, and the magnitude of defections. As I write this the article currently says that the USA and the UK invaded Iraq, and that 48 other nations joined the coalition. The last edit cut a sentence about defections, with the explanation that it was POV. Personally, I'd say cutting mention of the defections was POV. Maybe we can arrive at a compromise wording here.
But the additional 48? The coalition of the willing article list 46 members, with just 24 nations having a military commitment in the theatre. The USA and the UK, plus an additional 48 is a total of 50. Can we all agree this is clearly incorrect?
The reasons for the defections can be debated. It is clearly not solely based on the realization that the premises for the war were fabrications. The Phillipines withdrew its platoon-sized commitment shortly after terrorists kidnapped and killed a Phillipino civilian. Similarly, one could make a case that Spain defected, in part at least, because of the Madrid bombing, not the realization of fabrications. Other defecting nations have attributed their defections to the lack of progress in the reconstruction of Iraq's infrastructure, and the ineffectiveness of attempts to restore civil order. No doubt the embarrassment of being duped played a role -- along with these other factors.
Surely, failing to mention that a third of those listed in the coalition have provided only verbal support, no boots on the ground, is deceptive? -- Geo Swan 02:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
i've been involved in this edit struggle...primary reason being the following:
"Five countries participated with troops during the initial invasion (termed the Major Combat Operations phase), which lasted from March 19 to May 1. These were the United States (250,000), United Kingdom (45,000), Australia (2,000), Poland (194) and Denmark (300)". This information appears both in the 'multinational force in iraq' articl e and in this article. considering both these numbers and the command structure of the 'coalition forces' it is beyond dishonest to claim in the first line of the first paragraph that iraq was invaded by the United States, Britain, Australia and Poland. Did Poland participate in the invasion? yes. did poland invade iraq? no.
using any combination beyond that of the United States and the United Kingdom seems to me to be trying to prove a point and smacks of POV.
72.0.72.121
06:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
My remark about these codenames in introductory paragraph was mainly because stating all these lyrical codenames takes a huge amount of space in the first paragraph, especially if the successive revisions are stated, while not giving actual information. For instance, no single mention is made of the fact that the rational for the invasion were found to have been fabrication, which is quite significant a piece of information, I would say more than the military codename which have no incidence on anything. Rama 07:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was not the original codename at the time of the Iraq invasion. I was in a headquarters unit, and although I don't remember the original codename, I do remember the we didn't hear it referred to as "Operation Iraqi Freedom" until later in the invasion... probably after we reached Baghdad. I would suggest finding the original name... or at least saying ....later referred to as "Operation Iraqi Freedom"... etc. 208.120.58.22 02:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph:
can be trivially invalidated by reading Karen Kwiatkowski, for instance. Rama 12:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
The above paragraph in question is completely speculative. -- Howrealisreal 13:00, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I haven't heard anyone dispute anything yet except for "every person" which I agreed to change. The only other apparent dispute is that it does not fit the anti-War POV of some of the editors. I cited the incidents above of which there is no dispute. If you want to dispute them, please tell me which ones you dispute and why. (i.e, people disputed the word "every person" and it was rightfully changed) For instance, do you dispute that the payments were made to people the U.S. called terrorists? Do you dispute that Clinton Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2 stated that Sadaam was a threat to U.S. interests? Do you dispute that Sadaam met with what the U.S. called terrorist groups? Do you dispute, etc., etc., etc. -- Noitall 05:03, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
The article states that one of Rumsfeld's "stated goals" was to "secure Iraq's oil fields and other resources". If Rumsfeld is truly on record saying the United States invaded in order to seize Iraqi oil, that ought to be cited with a source. I am well aware that popular opinion holds that the US invaded for oil, but I would be surprised if the US government said that in so many words. I suggest removing this particular "stated goal" unless we can find out where it is stated. Bdell555 14:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I cannot believe how coniving some of you can be with your conspiracy tales. Rumsfeld was listing seven reasons for the mission in Iraq, the seventh being defending the wealth of the oil fields for the Iraqi people. There was no mention of going in there to secure this for the US. This is a blatant distortion. -Anon
I would like to know
I would very much like these points discussed on the talk page rather than by constant reversals. Thank you very much. Rama 16:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but at least one chemical weapon was found in Iraq, i believe it was in a roadside bomb used to sabotage an American convoy. Doesnt this make statements such as "No WMD were found" untrue? -- Henrybaker 21:23, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't know where the story which covered exactly when and where WMD found, but it is mentioned in this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq#2003_invasion_of_Iraq
--
Henrybaker
21:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Rama, if we can assume that one shell with chemical residue was found, then it would make it inaccurate to say that "no WMD were found in Iraq." However, it would still be accurate to say that "vaste chemical, biological and nuclear programmes... and the 45-minute readzable mobile chemical missile launchers..." were not found. -- Henrybaker 21:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Here is the article where it is documented that a shell containing Sarin http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html was found in Iraq. I submit that it is inaccurate to say that "no WMD were found in Iraq." I agree that it would be dis ingenuous to simply assert that "WMD were found in Iraq." The Opening paragraph, rather than saying "No WMD were found in Iraq." Should say something like "Insignificant amounts of WMD were found in Iraq" -- Henrybaker 21:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
This being an article on the invasion, are the details of the presence of WMD that were sought for post-invasion relevant? If it requires we wonder whether a canister with chem residue constitutes WMD, which actually isn't a trivial question (eg. are the quantities sufficient? was there a delivery mechanism for the chemicals? were the chemicals to be used for their own right or merely the canister? etc), I think we're off base. That important discussion should go to Iraq and weapons of mass destruction and Iraq war. Daniel Collins 21:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I changed the reference to WMD in the intro, noting that chemical residues were found, without stating that WMD were found, and avoiding stating that WMD were not found. In response to what Daniel Collins said, I don't know if it is relevant, but the intro flatly said that "No WMD were found" and i just don't think that statement is accurate without some kind of explanation. -- Henrybaker 21:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
This incident is also detailed in several Wikipedia articles, including here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_in_Iraq#Reports_of_chemical_weapons_finds_since_2003.
It is not an "isolated article by fox news." You said you wanted me to ascertain the story, but apperantly, you meant you wanted me to ascertain the story without citing fox news. Are you now doubting the veracity of the article? -- Henrybaker 22:40, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To be perfectly honest, the more i read the story, and the first paragraph of the article especially, the more i agree with daniel collins. The line about WMD does not belong in the opening paragraph. It is just floating there, with no apperant connection either to the preceding or succeeding sentence(s). -- Henrybaker 22:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Site David Kay's testimony to the Senate Commission and also site the Deufler Report as well. The ISG unit after the Iraq invasion testified to this and also the inspection teams by the UN after the invasion have also said that Saddam was going to reconstitute his programs as soon as sanctions were lifted and his manipulation of the oil for food scandal was another evidence of this. -Anon
Face it, the WMD scenerio that the anti-war crowd tries to use against the Administrations case is useless. The whole onus was squarley on Iraq to comply to UN Resolutions in order to plead its case. It failed to comply with UN Resolution 1441 and inspectors David Kay, Hans Blix (Dissarming Iraq pg. 90) and Charles Deufler agree to this.
Not so. Hans Blix stated in his last report said he was making progress. Iraq was cooperating. Read his report:
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm
The American government claimed that since Iraq didn't reveal the location of its WMDs stockpiles, it wasn't cooperating. How was Iraq supposed to reveal the location of something which didn't exist??? 15.235.249.71 04:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Vince Fiorito
There is a range of sources that now show that both the governments of the United States and the United Kingdom knew that Iraq had no WMD capabilities before the invasion, ( http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2076137.ece for one example) yet continued to sift through the intelegence looking for anything that could be construed to suggest the WMDs existed. Colin Powell for example quoted Hussein Kamal, Saddam Hussein's late son-in-law, as stating that Iraq produced 4 tons of VX while conveniently forgetting that Kamal also stated that the VX was destroyed and that Iraq possesed no WMDs. What are your views about including a sentence about the lies about WMDs we were told that have been proven to be untrue. It seems to me this article is incomplete without this information.
As with the media section, the one on WMD is perhaps overly long and amorphous. I suggest what content need to be moved over to Iraq disarmament crisis be moved, and then a synopsis of that main article be reproduced here. Thoughts? Daniel Collins 21:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
"What is clear is that Saddam retained his notions of the use of force and had experience that demonstrated the utility of WMD. He was making progress in eroding sanctions and, had it not been for the events of 9-11-2001, things would have taken a different course for the Regime. Most senior members of the Regime and scientists assumed that the programs would begin in earnest when sanctions ended---and sanctions were eroding." Testimony of Charles Duelfer Special Advisor to the DCI for Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction [20]
"Imad Husayn al Ani, Iraq’s former program director for VX, stated in an interview in 2003 that plans to produce thiourea and DCC, both of which he was unaware, indicated unequivocally that the Regime intended to reconstitute the V-series nerve agent program" [21]-- Silverback 20:19, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Well done Silverback. - Anon
I don't know why TDC wants to hide that info -- if anything, it refutes the theory that the organization was "controlled" by them, since CIA and Pentagon came to different conclusions about all of this. -- csloat 02:30, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Since that's the timespan during which the invasion took place, this article should only point to other articles, if necessary, that describe events outside these dates. Detailed treatment of pre-war knowledge of WMD or of the Kay report, for example, are out of place. I seek a coalition of the willing to assist in moving such details to their rightful home, and any voiced dissent so that this objective does not over-reach. Daniel Collins 14:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The 2003 invasion of Iraq was launched by the United States and the United Kingdom on March 20, 2003, with support from some other governments, making up what was described as the " coalition of the willing". After approximately three weeks of fighting, Iraq was occupied by coalition forces and the rule of Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party came to an end. For subsequent events, see Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005. The legitimacy of the invasion is disputed. The officially stated reason was that Iraq had failed to account for its Weapons of Mass Destruction or to fully cooperate with the inspections. However, the UN inspection teams were ready to continue the inspection, and even careful inspections after Iraq's capitulation failed to find weapons of mass destruction. and discuss all the rest later in the article. -- Stephan Schulz 14:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
So is this revised version of the introduction going to be used? -- Howrealisreal 00:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Here's my take: The 2003 invasion of Iraq was the start of the Iraq War, launched primarily by the United States and the United Kingdom on March 20, 2003, supported by N other nations, collectively termed the " coalition of the willing". The invasion stemmed from the Iraq disarmament crisis, during which Iraq failed to convince the U.S. and U.K., in particular, that it posed no threat from weapons of mass destruction, despite the on-going work of United Nations inspectors; Resolution 1441 was cited as legal justification for the war. Other nations as well as the UN disagreed with the invasion, its rationale and its legality. After approximately three weeks of combat, Iraq was occupied by coalition forces led by the U.S., ending the rule of Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party. The period that followed is detailed in Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005.
A "war" is a battle between 2 sides. An invasion is the specifica act of intruding military forces into a country. It's part of a military campaign by one side in the larger war.
When you say you are anti-war, you mean any of three thing:
Most "anti-war" activists when speaking about the Iraq War never said that they wanted Iraq's forces to stop fighting back against the Americans and British. Rather, they wanted the Allies to stop waging war against Saddam. (Or as some put it, "against the people of Iraq").
These distinctions are important, whichever "side" you are on. I hope that nothing but my 5 years of US military service shows in this discussion, and not advocacy on my part in favor or against Bush's decision. Uncle Ed 19:55, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
While reading the article I found an inconsistency in the "weapons of mass distruction" section:
This , from user Kulinda seems pretty old: 04:36, 14 May 2005. Somebody, with a funny sense of humour, had recently added (considered by some to be a month that hasn't yet occurred) right after "november 2005" [23]. Now the question is: how do we fix this? I suggest removing the whole edit by Kulinda, as it does not seem reliable anymore, unless it turns our he is a time traveler or - more likely - he just did a mistake confusing months or years. -- Nova77 17:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous contributor made a change to the first paragraph that seemed very POV to me. The wording they replaced said "some governments" had supported the USA and the UK in the invasion. They replaced this with a list of 29 of the nations who were now, or who at one time, were members of the "[[coalition of the willing]". Maybe it wasn't their intnetion, but this has a highly deceptive effect. This- article is about the invasion of Iraq, there is another article Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–2005, which puts the beginning of the post-invasion period at May 1, 2003. I'd say that when President Bush announced the "end of major combat operations" under the huge "Mission Accomplished" poster the invasion period was over.
How could this list include Turkey? Turkey may have joined the coaltion -- following the invasion -- but Turkey was a huge disappointment in the lead-up to the invasion. The USA wanted Turkey's co-operation to launch a second front, from Turkey. Turkey would not allow US forces to launch an attack from Turkish territory. It is highly deceptive to list Turkey as one of the nations that was supporting the invasion.
The list in the first paragraph could have included Australia and Poland. Australia and Poland also contributed actual ground troops to the invasion. Maybe there are other nations that could be listed. No nation should be listed as supporting the invasion because they were once members of the coalition of the willing if they only signed on after the invasion was over. I looked at the articles for all those nations. None of those article stated when those nations started supporting the coalition. Most of those articles don't even mention those nations membership in the "coalition of the willing".
I'm fairly certain that the only other countries that actually invaded Iraq were Australia and Poland, who both supplied special forces units. IIRC, there were 2000 Aussies and 200 Poles. Nudge 21:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Even if we had an authoritative list of those nations that had supported the invasion, while it was still in progress, I would question the value of listing those nations in the first paragraph.
I think the anonymous contributor should have done more research than crib the list from coalition of the willing. They did so little research that they didn't even check the links they made. This listed Georgia, a disambiguation page, rather than Georgia (country) -- a mistake they would not have made if they had checked the links they cited.
If the anonymous contributor reads the talk page, I would encourage them to sign in when they make edits. I called the effect to this edit "deceptive". I am going to "assume goodwill", and assume this was unintentional. But it has the effect of making the invasion appear to have had more international support than it actually had. -- Geo Swan 09:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
In the section Results (2003 Invasion of Iraq) the term "Terrorist activity" in Terrorist activity in Iraq by insurgents seems wrong.
According to wikipedia a terrorist is...
Terrorism, violence (especially against civilians) that is militarily insignificant but aimed at undermining morale.
Taking military action against invading armies of ones own country, is militia activity, or guerrilla warfare isn't it? -Wolfe 00:02, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
If you want to provide the official legal justification for the war, provide it and mark it as such. That would be UN Resolution 1441 and other applicable pieces of international law. But the reason Bush repeatedly stressed was that Iraq's arsenal of WMD posed a "mortal" and "urgent" threat to Iraq's neighbors, to the U.S., and world peace generally, so we had to take out Saddam to ensure that "the smoking gun" would not "come in the form of a mushroom cloud." That's how it was sold to the American people. It was claimed that there was a "slam-dunk" case that Iraq possessed tons of prohibited chemical weapons and had an active nuclear weapons program.
Noncooperation and poor accountancy are secondary reasons supporting the claim that Iraq possessed WMD, not the main reasons themselves. Specific legal justifications should be marked as such, not claimed to be the main stated reasons.
The phrase "continued Iraqi obstruction" isn't accurate because months before the invasion, the head UN inspector said that Iraq was cooperating "rather well." His biggest complaint about cooperation was that although they were allowing inspectors to go where they wanted, Iraq wasn't actively helping the investigation.
I also reverted to avoid the redirect from "Global protests against war on Iraq" to Protests against the invasion of Iraq. The 19:37 version also puts the date of invasion next to the time in the Opening Attack section, which isn't a bad idea. I'll restore the quote from the Duelfer Report. -- Mr. Billion 23:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Careful, Silverback. You just admitted that you think that Bush's reasons given to persuade the international community were not the real reasons.
The fact that there was a specific emphasis on the claim that Iraq had a threatening arsenal of WMD is the issue, because the point in question is what was the main stated reason for the war. If you believe that there were ulterior motives, you're welcome to make that case elsewhere. -- Mr. Billion 00:40, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, I take the fact that you're not even bothering to avoid re-inserting redirects into the article (even after they've repeatedly been pointed out) as evidence that you're less concerned with the quality of the article than you are with pushing your claim that the reason given for the war was poor cooperation and accountancy. The reason repeatedly and publicly stressed was the threat from WMD. Now that the WMD on which the war was predicated have been found not to have existed, you are focusing on other reasons, such as that Iraq did not sufficiently assure us that they did not exist. Mr. Billion 06:21, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
resolution 1441 inspections compliance Blix
will find the Blix reports in the first couple of pages. Here are a couple links you might want to read [26] [27]. There is no doubt that the US, UK and some others though Saddam was in breech of 1441, and that there were also other resolutions that he in breech of.-- Silverback 23:17, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
Resolution 1441 is Bush's claimed legal grounds, even though while the resolution calls for "serious consequences" it does not mention military action, let alone war, let alone the invasion of Iraq and the complete destruction of its government. Blair did hope for another resolution to make the war legal, but was thwarted when Bush barged into war.
The U.S. and U.K. tried to push through an additional UN resolution that could have allowed the use of force, but couldn't get it passed. The UN charter only allows the use of military force for self-defense or in accordance with UN resolutions calling for military force. Again, 1441 did not even mention it.
And Silverback, you try to use a selective quote from a report by Hans Blix to justify the war, but Blix himself has said that the invasion was illegal.
What was found by U.S. weapons inspectors undercuts the case for war; it does not support it. Even if Iraq had had an actual weapons program, it would have posed a threat not to the U.S. and its allies, but to Iraq's fellow "axis of evil" member, Iran. Duelfer's report found that Iran was Iraq's chief reason for wishing to reconstitute its programs. And the fact is, Iraq didn't have a chance of rebuilding its past programs. There was no indication that sanctions and other restrictions against Iraq were going to be dropped any time soon. It has been made clear that the UN's efforts to dismantle Iraq's weapons systems were quite successful, and those efforts had not slackened. And once again, even if Iraq's programs were to be one day redeveloped, their target would be the "axis of evil."
Iraq was a weak country. Dick Cheney declared in 1991 that Iraq's military capability had been virtually eliminated, and the country's military spending just before the invasion was a fraction of that of surrounding countries. -- Mr. Billion 06:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, you reverted with the text "rv to SB, if you are interested in article quality, please fix your redirect concerns BEFORE reverting, whatever those redirect concerns are."
No, I am not saying that I am inserting the redirects, I am saying that you are. It's simple. The redirect I am talking about is the one I pointed out in the first post in this section. The version you keep reverting to includes the link Global protests against war on Iraq, which now at least redirects to the correct article, Protests against the invasion of Iraq, but previously redirected to another redirect. It's generally good form to avoid redirects and especially dead-end redirects, particularly when you are claiming that one version of an article is better than another. You did not do so even after the problem was pointed out. I am saying that if you wish to use this particular introduction, you could at least try your hand at editing rather than using the buttons to revert wholesale. Look at the version to which you're reverting. There is no reason to re-insert those redirects.
As to your "ethical filth" statement: Please, try to avoid throwing around insults. -- Mr. Billion 07:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
No, Silverback, trying to fix the problem by erasing every sentence where that link occurs does not help any. The sad thing is that this is the closest you've yet come to any attempt at a compromise. -- Mr. Billion 15:27, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, all you are doing in this talk page is re-stating your own personal POV over and over. You have been repeatedly asked to source your claims that the "officially stated reason" for the war was "failing to account for it's WMDs", but you have responded with sources from Hans Blix. As if an officially stated reason is going to come from someone who isn't an official in the Bush administration. Your version of the intro is completely unsourced and is in direct contradiction with the sources provided in the previous version. If you want your intro to be taken seriously please provide Sources. Specifically a source of a Bush administration officially stating prior to the invasion that the reason for the Iraq war is Iraq's "failure to account for it's WMDs". Because as it stands right now your version is original research and has no place in an encyclopedia. 69.121.133.154 19:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
"even if the suspected WMD had been found, it would have been dwarfed in importance by what was found, and that was that Saddam intended to restart the WMD programs once sanctions were dropped."
The weapons themselves would have been dwarfed in importance by the mere desire for the weapons? You're not making sense. -- Mr. Billion 05:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Restarting the programs would not have been a "mere desire for".
You've jumped from talking about the intention to restart the programs to talking about the programs themselves. Mr. Billion 08:26, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
SB, even if the argument that Saddam Hussein actually had a threatening arsenal of WMD had been used "only" to convince the "intellectually dishonest" opposition, it still is the main stated reason for war. Reasons given to convince those not opposed hardly qualify as reasons. Again, if you believe that the "real" reasons were other reasons not used to convince the opposition, these "real" reasons of yours are not the main stated reasons.
Your "intellectually dishonest" attack is baffling. It is you who is trying to pretend that the reason given for the invasion was simply poor accountancy and withheld cooperation. Can you find a quote where it is stated by a Bush administration official that either of those is the core reason?
As Rama has pointed out, the claim was that Saddam had functioning weapons systems that could be put to use within one hour--the time frame given by Tony Blair was forty-five minutes. The reason given for why we had to invade before inspectors could finish their job was the allegation that Iraq possessed a threatening arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that had to be eliminated. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claimed on September 13, 2002, "There's no debate in the world as to whether they have those weapons....We all know that. A trained ape knows that." As it turned out, the trained ape's information was faulty.
You keep comparing the threat posed by Saddam Hussein to that posed by Hitler, but Hitler was militarily very powerful, actively expansionist, and actually had military allies. In terms of ability to pose a threat, Iraq resembled Germany rather less than you think. The comparison to Germany would make more sense if Germany's primary opponent in WWII had been Italy, since Saddam's main reason for desiring WMD was to make trouble for his fellow "axis of evil" member, Iran.
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said in 2003 that "the truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason."
You have provided no sound evidence or reasoning to support your claims, only mostly restated the original claim and your red herring "'arguments for' VS 'reasons for'" quibble. If the reason for invading was simply poor accountancy and compliance, then where did the "urgent," "mortal," and "immediate" threat come from? Weak cooperation? Bad accounting? -- Mr. Billion 03:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I see what you're saying. The next step is for the United States to invade itself for failing to account for the nonexistent Iraqi WMD. This could become a vicious cycle.
"It apparently is still unaccounted for." You're still somehow operating under the assumption that Saddam actually had these weapons, when the United States' own investigation found last year that Saddam didn't have these weapons, hadn't made any since 1991, and furthermore didn't have the ability to make any. Both Bush and Cheney have said that Saddam didn't have the alleged WMD.
But at least now UN sanctions are not killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children.
Another red herring.
Regardless, your reply only responded to the question of where this urgent threat came from. You still have not shown evidence that the primary reason Bush & Blair gave for invading Iraq was simply its "failing to account" and not cooperating fully. -- Mr. Billion 08:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The real thing, the serious stuff I knew you guys didn't really want a cite, because the attempt at another resolution on this basis was common knowedge
One quote from an interview does not make this the "main stated reason" for the war. It's a nice retort to the Wolfowitz quote, though, so good for you.
You've used a quote to support your statement that "Bush and Blair worked for a UN resolution authorizing the war," but left out the part where Powell says he's not sure that it will explicitly authorize the war. Regardless, the resolution didn't fly, so the point is moot. And Powell gave that interview a week before Blix's statement that Iraq was cooperating on process "rather well." The war wasn't waged because "well, Iraq was cooperating rather well, but not well enough."
Again, cooperation and accounting are issues secondary to WMD. The American public did not accept the war simply because of poor accounting. They were convinced by the "urgent threat" said to be posed by the weapons Saddam allegedly had.
A few posts ago you expressed that you think the weapons were real and are still out there somewhere unaccounted for. You said that there was a threat posed by these unaccounted-for weapons. But at the same time you've been saying that the war was needed because they weren't accounted for, not because they posed a threat. Somehow you're still trying to fit your assertion that the war was about poor accounting inside this persistent belief of yours that Saddam had this threatening arsenal of WMD. -- Mr. Billion 01:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I have problems with the introductory paragraph. It reads as vague and poorly written. Passive voice, etc... It is also POV (Saddam Hussein was President too, yet this title is only given to Bush). Furthermore, more than half the content is about the rationale/legality concern, not the actual event. The invasion was a very isolated event in this continuing saga that is U.S. involvement in Iraq, and this article goes far beyond the scope of its title. In the interest of not ruffling too many feathers, for now im willing to leave parts of it in. My suggested rewrite is as follows:
Initiated on March 20, 2003 by the United States with the support of the United Kingdom and several other nations loosely defined as the " coalition of the willing", the "2003 invasion of Iraq" marked the formal beginning of the Iraq War. Swift in execution, the invasion followed the military doctrine of Shock and Awe. Baghdad fell on April 9th, 2003 and on May 1, 2003 U.S. President George W. Bush declared the end of major combat operations, for all intents and purposes terminating the Ba'ath Party's rule and removing Iraqi President Saddam Hussein from office even though he would ellude coalition forces until December, 2003. A transitional occupation began thereafter and among other topics, is covered under Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005. Prior to the invasion, the U.S. tried and failed to secure a U.N. mandate to intervene in the interests of U.S. national security and international stability. Thus, the legitimacy of the invasion is a point of contention. The request to the U.N. Security Council was based on intelligence reports showing Iraq to have weapons of mass destruction capabilities. The legal justification involved Iraq's implied violation of several U.N. Resolutions, particularly UN Security Council Resolution 1441. [33]U.S. president George W. Bush repeatedly claimed that these weapons posed a significant and timely threat to the United States and its allies. [34] [35] Much of this intelligence is now under scrutiny and of questionable veracity. In the days before the attack, the Iraqi government repeatedly denied the existence of any such facilities or capabilities and called the reports lies or fabrications. [36] U.N. inspection teams, in and out of Iraq since the Gulf War, while willing to continue the search were ordered out as war loomed. This article covers the particulars of the invasion. For more general information see Iraq War, U.S.-Led Occupation of Iraq, Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005.
Please comment. I'll clean it up a bit and then make the changes if acceptable. ImagoDei
RonCram has been trying for a long time to include original research on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page connecting Able Danger to the alleged conspiracy between Saddam and al-Qaeda. The connection between these two is speculation that Able Danger may lead to questioning the 911 Commission's credibility in this matter. So far that has not occurred, nor can he produce any mainstream press accounts that connect these issues. Thus, the connection he asserts is original research. We've been successfully fighting his addition of this research on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page; so now he has inserted it here instead. You can look at the Talk:Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda for more information about the arguments. I will revert his changes here and I encourage others to do so as well; if his conduct there is any indication of how he will behave here, it is possible that he will continue reverting and posturing in talk: without ever responding to the arguments. -- csloat 18:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
csloat, you are changing the subject. There is no original research because several media outlets have covered the remarks of Rep Curt Weldon talking about the damage to the 9/11 Commission's credibility. He has even spoken of a possible "coverup." For you to attempt to keep this information from readers of wikipedia is the worst kind of censorship. You are acting as an attorney trying to suppress evidence in the court of public opinion rather than as a wikipedia editor seeking NPOV. Second -regarding the report of a "pact," you have a funny way of saying there is no evidence while we are discussing the evidence. And you have a funny way of calling on the authority of the 9/11 Commission which ignored (or was not aware of) the published reports on the "pact." If you seek corroborating evidence, you need only see that al Qaeda did hit a US target in the region just over a year after the pact was agreed to. You have heard of the USS Cole, right? Third, regarding Senator Hollings - you claim to have won some debate about Hollings on Saddam Hussen and al-Qaeda but if you read the article, the Hollings speech is still in the article and has been for some time. I am uncertain how you consider this a victory for your side. Regarding your comment about my medication, I do not think that exhibits good wikiquette. Just to ease your mind, I can tell you that I am in fine health and take only vitamins. I am not on any medication. - RonCram 15:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Deletions without any discussion are simple vandalism. Deletions with long-winded arguments attempting to keep out information readers deserve to have based on POV is not much better. If you wish to delete portions of my contributions, I suggest you see if you can find someone who agrees with you my entry is irrelevant, unsourced or otherwise unworthy of inclusion. If it is possible to find a fair-minded person who agrees, I would love to discuss it with them. - RonCram 15:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I think I would tend to agree that most of the material in that section belongs in the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda article. Would it be possible to get that section in this article down to just a couple of paragraphs, relying on readers to follow the link to the other article if they want more information? I realize that article itself is currently in dispute, and has seen lots of recent allegations of bias, 3RR violations, etc. But using that page as the venue to deal with the controversy seems like a better approach than having the controversy play out on multiple, less-related pages.
On the information in Ron's recent edit, I'd agree that there are problems both in the specifics (like citing avowedly partisan sources like The Weekly Standard and Fox News without noting their partisan nature) and in the general tone, which is to basically argue for a Saddam/al-Qaeda connection that most relevant authorities have concluded is unlikely. But at the same time, I think Ron deserves credit for making a good-faith effort to be sensitive to the requirements of NPOV. -- John Callender 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Below is a quick summary of my changes; I think this covers everything:
1. Kept RonCram's addition of the 1998 article in there. I don't think it is necessary but if others do, it should stay. I've changed the language and context for more POV and accuracy. This article should not leave the impression that RonCram's version conveys that this was a big piece of evidence missed by the Commission and Committee -- it was a mistaken report by an Italian reporter (I'm not sure who said "alliance" but let's say two reporters) based on the prevailing wisdom of the time (1998), which turned out to be wrong. In 1998 the NSA thought that Saddam and AQ were teaming up, and launched a "red-team" study of the issue (The NSA's position was different from CIA's, and the NSA goal was to prove the CIA wrong). Well, they failed -- they were unable to find the connections they assumed were there (more info here). So it is clear that people around the president at the time believed that Saddam was connected to AQ, but when they souught evidence for this they turned up dry. I mention this because RonCram makes a lot out of articles from this time period, when many people believed there was a connection, but there had been far less investigation into the issue than there is today. By now the prevailing wisdom of intelligence analysts and of the mainstream media around the world suggests that no evidence has emerged to support a Saddam-AQ connection. RonCram has every right to disagree with all of those experts, but he is not correct to demand that Wikipedia make his case for him.
2. Contextualize Powell quote with what he said in 2005, and add statement about the intelligence community's analysis of the "links". I could add further detail here if people want but all this info is available at Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. I am not sure how much duplication is necessary here; I would prefer to cut a lot of this section out completely and just refer people there.
3. Include info on al-Janabi and the INC. This stuff is also on the other page but if we are going to include this information here it should be put in context.
4. I removed the sentence "Evidence of the relationship is contradictory" because it is not backed up by the information on this page. There is nothing contradictory about it at all. There were some exploratory contacts between Saddam and AQ and they led to nothing.
5. Contextualized the Senator Hollings thing. I really think this does not belong here at all. Senators and Representatives enter all kinds of things into the CR and it does not appear in an encyclopedia. The fact that Hollings read an op-ed piece as evidence of foreknowledge is meaningless -- even if it were true at best it would prove that bin Laden's plans were an open secret in parts of the Islamic world. But even that is not supported by the flimsy textual analysis Hollings offers. But let's say this guy knew OBL was going to blow up the towers. How is he connected to Saddam? He writes an op-ed piece in a "state-run" newspaper? I work at a "state-run" university in California; does that mean that if I know about a crime, it can be assumed that Arnold Schwarzenegger's administration was involved in it?? I feel ridiculous having to spell this out; it is difficult for me to believe that anyone can give this credibility.
Look, if there was really a collaboration between Saddam and AQ, where is the money trail? Where are the weapons? The evidence of planning together? The big things, not shadowy meetings that are disputed by other sources, or bizarre readings of op-ed pieces in local newspapers.
6. Got rid of Able Danger. Contrary to what RonCram thinks, I am not "afraid" of this information. If it was relevant, someone besides Wikipedia editors would have mentioned it. No article on Able Danger has seen fit to mention any of this. If Able Danger turns out to prove that the Commission lied or covered up a connection between Saddam and AQ, that would certainly belong here, but so far that has not happened and nobody is even speculating that it will happen (except on Wikipedia). This is not the place to explore such possible future worlds -- if mainstream newspapers start mentioning it then it belongs here. Otherwise Ron's assumption that the Commission's credibility on this question will be tarnished is "interesting", but it is original research. I've made this argument a number of times above and on the Talk:Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page, but Ron does not seem to want to let it go. Can others offer their opinions on this? -- csloat 22:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
User Silverback just reverted all the changes I made with a cryptic edit summary. He has been doing this kind of massive reversions on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page as well, and he does not respond to arguments or discussion in talk. I spent a lot of time rewriting this entry in good faith to include the arguments introduced by RonCram, even though I did not agree with the significance of those arguments. I also spent time writing my justifications for every change, which are listed above. Silverback reverted almost all of it without responding to a single of the justifications above. I have implored Silverback to stop this behavior on his user:talk page. He is not only reverting here; he is deleting relevant information wholesale. I hope I am not alone in perceiving such edits as highly problematic.-- csloat 01:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, um, why do we have this page whereas there's the much nicer, and NPOV, article at Iraq War?
The provide citations don't support Spains 90% opposition figure in the article. I haven't removed that figure yet, perhaps someone can come up with the citation. We need to be careful with the language, to avoid giving the wrong impressions by mixing polling results from different time periods with different questions and circumstances. For instance, the gallup polls which are cited are from January, before the invasion of course, but many then were still hoping that the UN would act responsibly. The poll results might have been different just before the invasion, after the UN had not responded good faith efforts at a new resolution by the US, UK and Spain. Of course, we will never know what the pre-war poll results would have been had there been general knowledge of the oil for food corruption's possible influence on the UN decision making.-- Silverback 14:19, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_2003_Invasion_of_Iraq --Theo Pardilla 13:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I realize he is just baiting me because of the RfA against him, so I don't plan on tinkering with Silverback's recent (minor) edits. But I want to first point out that his most recent edit summary refers to "indiscriminately reverted information" yet it isn't clear what he's talking about; he's changed the wording slightly but added no new information. More importantly his earlier edit adds the word "unspecified" and claims inexplicably that that is "more clear" ... Actually the stories are specified and detailed on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page if anyone wants to list them all. "Some unspecified information" just sounds ludicrous so it would be better if it was rewritten in a manner that made more sense. I'm going to lay off it though because I don't feel like getting sucked back into an edit war with Silverback, which he seems to be trying to do both here and on the other page.-- csloat 00:28, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The header and the link to the main Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda would remain, here is the proposed replacement text for this messy section:
-- Silverback 09:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
vote here sign with [\wiki]-- Silverback 09:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[\nowiki]
I would tinker with this a bit - first of all the redundant phrase "in the past" has to go, at the very least, and there should be some indication of the Admin's strong implication that Saddam was connected to 911 rather than the wishy-washy "might conspire to launch terrorist attacks." Actual quotes from Admin members would be best here I think. Second, I'm not sure we should have the same exact paragraph in two places. Third, I do not want to see the information that is here deleted if it is not on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page. The Sahab story needs to be there if we're deleting it from here. A vote, I think, is premature.-- csloat 20:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The header and the link to the main Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda would remain, here is the proposed replacement text for this messy section:
-- Silverback 07:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
vote here sign with [\wiki]-- Silverback 09:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[\nowiki]
I don't think it's necessary to call for a vote for every change, especially when there don't seem to be major obstacles to consensus. I added the Sahab story to the timeline on the other page so it can safely be deleted here; I haven't read the rest of the section carefully enough recently to say whether there is anything else that is not included in the timeline but we should do that before deleting it here.-- csloat 05:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
"Coalition of the willing" is a loaded phrase which includes the implicit judgement of "willing" and the misleading "coalition". The impression given is of a large number of nations in alliance toward a common purpose is at odds with the invaders constituent sources being primarily the United States and Britain with a numerically minor component from other nations. This is in comparison to the first Iraq war which could be more fairly described in its essential character as a coalition. --Theo Pardilla 13:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Rama, yes normally i would be inclined to agree with that method, however, it is most often applicable when supporting text identifies the source and has contextual explanatatory information in the surrounding text. The problems with the current quotation marks method being used in the introduction are
Therefore i suggest
--Theo Pardilla 10:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
On Oct 25, User Reddi made about 50-60 massive changes without edit summaries; all characterized as "minor". I am tempted to revert them but I want to give him a chance to explain himself. On first glance, the changes seem quite major, and seem designed to obscure the fact that no WMD were found in Iraq. Can someone else confirm this? Can Reddi explain what all that was about? Thanks -- csloat 22:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I reverted back to moving the inline links to a proper reference section. JDR 14:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC) (PS., the NPOV-fork of Iraq War at War of Iraq to delineate the informal and formal uses of that term) (PPS. The Iraq Survey Group David Kay interview was taken out of context. But I'll put it back in with the references ...)
I would like to note that the David Kay's interview "statement" is unsourced (the one Tibbsy cited above)... as the link goes to a dead page and the person that put it in didn't give a title or any other information ... there is nothing there @ the linked page ... a better citation than that is needed! It seems to be taken out of context ... but I'll look around if I can find a better references page ... and verify the "quote" ... JDR 16:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and revert all of Reddi's edits again. Adding 30kb worth of references does not help this article, even considered solely from a readability standpoint. And the POV as Csloat mentioned doesn't help either. And here's the so hard-to-find missing source Reddi was talking about: [47]. Lexis Nexis is known for allowing online links one moment, then not the next. And it's not that I'm against a Reference section, but in long, heavily sourced articles like this one only the most important sources can be ReReferenced, instead of just embedded. That certainly isn't a new idea, imagine if George W Bush was similarily ReReferenced. - Mr. Tibbs 05:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Where are the observations of Iraqis on this subject?
No i mean really this seems like some sort of self indulgent uni frat debating. It sort of reminds me of the Blues brothers film when Jake and Elmo are in a bar and one of them asks a patron what sort of music she likes and she replies "oh I like both types, Country and Western". It seems like the priviledged elite are locked inside of an incestuous echo chamber endlessly banging on, fighting and slappping each other on the back. Yes the posers are all so concerned with bringing democracy to Iraqis or preventing them from being slaughtered by foreign invaders that it would be beneath their social station to actually ask them what they want or their observations or opinion or to include it on these pages.
--Theo Pardilla 14:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I have a question. Since everyone seems to refer to this as the "Iraq War" now. How would everyone feel about renaming this article to "Iraq War" or "2003 Iraq War". I mean, techinically, an invasion is what happens in the first days of a war. that was 3+ years ago. So I would think that using this nomenclature would be more accurate for the current state of affairs. Feedback is welcome. Thank you . Joetheguy 23:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
But trying to re name a war that started three years ago shouldnt be a topic. My concern is are we going to withdraw once and for all? please Feedback. Kenaoshi8 02:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Kenaoshi8 Kenaoshi8 02:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm shortening the section on "deaths" to just the link, for two reasons.
I am also changing the title to "casualties" and adding such a field to the infobox, following the pattern set in other conflicts. Are there any objections to these three changes? Twin Bird 02:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The casus belli in the infobox currently says "Official allegations Saddam Hussein was harboring weapons of mass destruction and had ties to terrorists have been proven false." (emphasis added). While it is certainly a likelihood that these allegations are false, they have not been proven so, and cannot be proven so without some sort of evidence that the Bush administration knowingly lied regarding WMDs. The source cited discusses not evidence of absence but absence of evidence, and I have changed the sentence in question to reflect that. I believe it is now less biased and more logically accurate. If anyone disagrees with the change, let's discuss it here. Also, the cited website is no longer active, so if someone could find a similar un-broken link, that would be good. AdamSolomon 19:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user has changed the sentence "In October 2002, with the " Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq", the United States Congress granted President Bush the authority to "use any means necessary" against Iraq, based on repeated Bush Administration statements to Congress and the public, which turned out to be incorrect, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction." to say "...based on intelligence that suggested a high probability that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction."
The majority of the Congress and the American public were convinced to approve of the invasion of Iraq because of exaggerated claims made by the administration, such as the alarming claim that "final proof" of Iraqi WMD would "come in the form of a mushroom cloud" if the U.S. failed to invade Iraq. Congress was convinced, not because of any particular intelligence, but by its trust of the administration's convincing arguments. It's sometimes claimed that Congress saw all the same information as the President in making its decision to grant the executive power to invade Iraq, but that is not accurate.
"But Bush does not share his most sensitive intelligence, such as the President's Daily Brief, with lawmakers. Also, the National Intelligence Estimate summarizing the intelligence community's views about the threat from Iraq was given to Congress just days before the vote to authorize the use of force in that country. In addition, there were doubts within the intelligence community not included in the NIE. And even the doubts expressed in the NIE could not be used publicly by members of Congress because the classified information had not been cleared for release. For example, the NIE view that Hussein would not use weapons of mass destruction against the United States or turn them over to terrorists unless backed into a corner was cleared for public use only a day before the Senate vote."
Senior administration officials repeatedly failed to fully disclose the contrary views of America's leading nuclear scientists, an examination by The New York Times has found. They sometimes overstated even the most dire intelligence assessments of the tubes, yet minimized or rejected the strong doubts of nuclear experts. They worried privately that the nuclear case was weak, but expressed sober certitude in public. One result was a largely one-sided presentation to the public that did not convey the depth of evidence and argument against the administration's most tangible proof of a revived nuclear weapons program in Iraq.
The same anonymous user has also erased the observation that lots of people have been killed in Iraq by various armed groups going around killing people they don't like. The user called it "unsubstantiated political opinion," yet it was clearly cited.
So I am reverting these changes. -- Mr. Billion 20:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
For example, the NIE view that Hussein would not use weapons of mass destruction against the United States or turn them over to terrorists unless backed into a corner was cleared for public use only a day before the Senate vote.
I think it would be wrong to state that the administration was the only deciding factor on intelligence. But who said that? Where did that come from? I am saying that the administration's PR campaign pushing for invasion of Iraq was clearly the most important element in convincing Congress to authorize the invasion, so it would be misleading for the article to say that Congress passed the Iraq resolution based on some particular piece of intelligence.
based on repeated Bush Administration statements to Congress and the public, which turned out to be incorrect
I'm not sure what you mean by "This is irrelevant in respect to the question at hand and thus not manipulative." But the statement you're saying is a straw man is merely pointing out that the administration's claim that Congress saw all the same intelligence as the executive branch saw is not accurate, and that even some of the most important information that Congress did see wasn't cleared for use in public debate until very late in the game.
If you want to argue that that's an argumentative fallacy, "red herring" might come closer to fitting, although I don't think it does. A
straw man is an argument where a person misrepresents his opponent's argument to make it easier to knock down. For instance, if Person B claimed that Person A was arguing something ridiculous such as that the administration was the only deciding factor on intelligence, when in fact person A was actually arguing something quite different, that would be a straw man.
The UN report you linked concludes that "Iraq did not provide the full cooperation it promised on 14 November 1998." It is intellectually dishonest and historical revision to claim that this supports the American administration's claim that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more
immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."
You've provided no evidence that any governments or press services have "dismissed" the BBC article saying that the UN's chief anti-torture expert said that torture may be worse now in Iraq than under Saddam Hussein. But I think your point that death squads and brutality would fit under "sectarian violence" is a good one, so I won't argue that point any further.
--
Mr. Billion
06:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
How many news agencies reported about government-based death squads?
Answer:
Several.
To be clear, though, the iraqi government is factious and only parts of it (the parts loyal to
Muqtada al-Sadr and the parts controlled by the
Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution In Iraq, as far as I can tell) support death squads. Not the whole government.
The majority of the United States was convinced to accept the invasion of Iraq based on assertions that Iraq posed an immediate and mortal threat to the United States and its allies. Not based on how dishonest the Iraqi government was. --
Mr. Billion
09:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of removing the line "(Later on, during the invasion, it was rumored that Turkey itself had sent troops into the Kurdish part of Iraq.)" from the second paragraph under "Military Aspects." There are alot of interesting rumours floating around but, as far as an encyclopedia goes, facts with sources seem more fitting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.24.138.34 ( talk) 21:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
I changed the first paragraph to make it a little less POV. The first two lines now read "The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States officially began on March 20, 2003. The alleged objective of the invasion was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people".[2]
'stated objective' was changed to 'alleged objective' and the synonymity of the '2003 invasion of Iraq' with the words 'Operation Iraqi Freedom' by placing them side-by-side in the opening sentence is no longer a problem due to the removal of the latter from said sentence.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I suggest a section of the page be identified to be moved to its own page. This is because the page's length has exceded suggested guidelines. I suggest that the section about News Reporting be considered for being created as its own seperate page linked to the main page. This section can be viewed as its own topic, and consists of substantial length. Comp8956 01:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
2003 Invasion of Iraq → Liberation of Iraq - PoLaR 23:19, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 10:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
See Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Archive 1#Moronic page move request
Yes, unfortunately, the majority of the world would have been against the invasion even if the Left's hero Hans Blix said that he found gobs of WMD's. For some reason the (non-Islamic) world has become pacifist at any cost.
A comment from the WP:RM page:
See Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Archive 1#vote on new title This earlier WP:RM vote was only concluded at the end of April and IMHO it is too soon for another vote -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Why can it just be referred to in the neutral term 2003 Iraq War or Iraq War of 2003??
This page should be left as 2003 invasion of Iraq, not the liberation of Iraq. This is an obvious way to make the war seem justified. It could be worse. It could be "the occupation of Iraq" or the "illegal actions of the US in Iraq". The current title is accurate, since the US did invade Iraq, whereas Iraq these days doesn't seem very liberated.
hhamdy283 08-05-2005
It is clear that "Iraq War of Liberation" is POV and similarly, "Iraq Invasion" is also POV; both of these titles are readily used in propaganda for partisans of the various sides.
The above references to popular opinion polls are irrelevant; the current passions of the day bear absolutely no weight on providing a descriptive title. The judgment of the relative value of this war will have to be made later. Jkp1187 04:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I was the original one over the past few days that argued that this article should have a POV warning. And I still believe it should. I have made some changes that I think help to bring a more neutral POV to the article, but I still see a lot of POV. And not just Leftist POV, the whole "media coverage" section seems like a tit for tat game of sniping comments. It's really pretty embarassing to read. Obviously this event has been a polarizing one in history. I don't think we will ever achieve total neutrality as long as the public can continue to edit it. 24.128.88.42 02:04, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Looking over his History the Only change 24.128.88.42 has implemented on this article was to add a NPOV tag. And his One other comment in this entire discussion page [1] strikes me as extreme to say the least. Reading over the Media Coverage section I see no blaring advocacy to warrant a NPOV tag. In fact compared to other encyclopedia entries on this subject [2] [3] Wikipedia's entry pretty much follows suit and is fairly neutral. So I'm taking down the NPOV tag. 68.199.46.6 06:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Please note that I may edit from a variety of different IP addresses depending on when I find time to check this article. I put back the POV tag. 12.25.1.161 17:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the article is POV. Why don't you people that what the pov-Tag give quotes and examples on WHAT PARTS are POV ? -- 82.83.71.5 17:55, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I have checked the individual matériel mentionned in the article [7] as proof that Iraq had substential weaponry, only to find that they are either small weapons, like shoulder-launcher anti-air missiles, elderly systems ("the task of knocking out the Iraqi T-55 tanks and armored vehicles appeared to be extremely difficult!" (sic)), or systems which were said to be present in Iraq but turned out not to be ( Kolchuga Radar). The date of the article, 5 April 2003, makes me wonder whether it can possibly have the distance needed to accurately portray the situation. Rama 06:57, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Every single description I've seen of the Iraq Army after the First Persian Gulf War, refers to it as "poorly-equipped". Even your own sources do not refer to the Iraqi army as having "mixed levels of equipment and readiness". The best summary I've been able to find so far is from GlobalSecurity.org: "Overall, Iraq's army is seen as poorly equipped after the battering it took in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war and the 1991 Gulf War - and after the country was subjected to more than a decade of trade sanctions imposed because of its 1990 invasion of Kuwait." [8]. Here's a more detailed analysis by CDI thats states that Iraq had "half of all Army equipment lacking spare parts" [9]. There was even an incident where Iraqi troops tried to surrender, Before the war even started, and they were described by the British soldiers who encountered them as: "a motley bunch and you could barely describe them as soldiers - they were poorly equipped and didn't even have proper boots. Their physical condition was dreadful and they had obviously not had a square meal for ages." [10]. I don't care what your sources say about "illegally obtained weapons", because it's pretty clear that the Iraqi military of 2003 had trouble feeding and clothing it's soldiers, much less properly equipping them for war. And so I'm changing back the article. 68.199.46.6 05:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
The US is not better equiped than other world powers. Russia has the most nukes and tanks. France has a very modernized military. Germany has the superior LeopardII. China(PRC) has the largest air force. The US needed The UK's help in modern wars. South and North Korea have the 2 largest militaries(no. of troops) any nation with nukes is a match for the US Russia could be making their military look smaller and out dated,just a theory. Dudtz 8/25/05 5:05 PM EST
It's not that the weapons are of poor quality,It is because of poor Iraqi tatics. Soviet/Russian weapons are meant for Soviet/Russian Tatics. Soviet/Russian tatics for tanks is to build a mid priced tank(excluding T-90) and build allot of them. The US military isn't too good at their tank tatics for fighting another superpower. US soldiers think that a T-55 is going to stay still out in the open so they can hit it with an Anti tank gun or rocket. Dudtz 9/25/05 7:57 PM EST
RonCram suggested on another page that this article be split as follows:
"Perhaps the 2003 invasion of Iraq article would only deal with the dates, military tactics and subsequent capture of Saddam (all clear cut facts without dispute) and leave all the controversial subjects to the controversy article?"
(the subsequent discussion is copied here)
RonCram: yes, excellent idea, I think the 2003 invasion of Iraq should deal entirely with hard info, the vast amount of junk about justifications, counter-justifications, accusations, etc etc should be in a separate article. Post it on that article's talk page, I will support such a split. Basically the "Rationale" and "Opinion and Legality" sections should be split off. Also the most of the "Media Coverage" section needs to be moved to the article which is already dedicated to that. ObsidianOrder 07:05, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we take the example of Polish September Campaign ? The subjects have much in common: a swift military campain, controversial prelude, strong political implications (I mean compared to a single battle withing a larger war like, say, Monte Cassino). Rama 14:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
If there is another article dedicated exclusively to
media coverage of the invasion, why is its treatment so lengthy here? I would think a synopsis of the main article be produced instead, with any additional info contained here inserted in the other article as appropriate. This would help make the article a little less of a quagmire.
Daniel Collins
21:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph is experiencing a tug of war of edits over the number of the number of members of the coalition of the willing, and the magnitude of defections. As I write this the article currently says that the USA and the UK invaded Iraq, and that 48 other nations joined the coalition. The last edit cut a sentence about defections, with the explanation that it was POV. Personally, I'd say cutting mention of the defections was POV. Maybe we can arrive at a compromise wording here.
But the additional 48? The coalition of the willing article list 46 members, with just 24 nations having a military commitment in the theatre. The USA and the UK, plus an additional 48 is a total of 50. Can we all agree this is clearly incorrect?
The reasons for the defections can be debated. It is clearly not solely based on the realization that the premises for the war were fabrications. The Phillipines withdrew its platoon-sized commitment shortly after terrorists kidnapped and killed a Phillipino civilian. Similarly, one could make a case that Spain defected, in part at least, because of the Madrid bombing, not the realization of fabrications. Other defecting nations have attributed their defections to the lack of progress in the reconstruction of Iraq's infrastructure, and the ineffectiveness of attempts to restore civil order. No doubt the embarrassment of being duped played a role -- along with these other factors.
Surely, failing to mention that a third of those listed in the coalition have provided only verbal support, no boots on the ground, is deceptive? -- Geo Swan 02:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
i've been involved in this edit struggle...primary reason being the following:
"Five countries participated with troops during the initial invasion (termed the Major Combat Operations phase), which lasted from March 19 to May 1. These were the United States (250,000), United Kingdom (45,000), Australia (2,000), Poland (194) and Denmark (300)". This information appears both in the 'multinational force in iraq' articl e and in this article. considering both these numbers and the command structure of the 'coalition forces' it is beyond dishonest to claim in the first line of the first paragraph that iraq was invaded by the United States, Britain, Australia and Poland. Did Poland participate in the invasion? yes. did poland invade iraq? no.
using any combination beyond that of the United States and the United Kingdom seems to me to be trying to prove a point and smacks of POV.
72.0.72.121
06:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
My remark about these codenames in introductory paragraph was mainly because stating all these lyrical codenames takes a huge amount of space in the first paragraph, especially if the successive revisions are stated, while not giving actual information. For instance, no single mention is made of the fact that the rational for the invasion were found to have been fabrication, which is quite significant a piece of information, I would say more than the military codename which have no incidence on anything. Rama 07:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was not the original codename at the time of the Iraq invasion. I was in a headquarters unit, and although I don't remember the original codename, I do remember the we didn't hear it referred to as "Operation Iraqi Freedom" until later in the invasion... probably after we reached Baghdad. I would suggest finding the original name... or at least saying ....later referred to as "Operation Iraqi Freedom"... etc. 208.120.58.22 02:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph:
can be trivially invalidated by reading Karen Kwiatkowski, for instance. Rama 12:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
The above paragraph in question is completely speculative. -- Howrealisreal 13:00, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I haven't heard anyone dispute anything yet except for "every person" which I agreed to change. The only other apparent dispute is that it does not fit the anti-War POV of some of the editors. I cited the incidents above of which there is no dispute. If you want to dispute them, please tell me which ones you dispute and why. (i.e, people disputed the word "every person" and it was rightfully changed) For instance, do you dispute that the payments were made to people the U.S. called terrorists? Do you dispute that Clinton Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2 stated that Sadaam was a threat to U.S. interests? Do you dispute that Sadaam met with what the U.S. called terrorist groups? Do you dispute, etc., etc., etc. -- Noitall 05:03, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
The article states that one of Rumsfeld's "stated goals" was to "secure Iraq's oil fields and other resources". If Rumsfeld is truly on record saying the United States invaded in order to seize Iraqi oil, that ought to be cited with a source. I am well aware that popular opinion holds that the US invaded for oil, but I would be surprised if the US government said that in so many words. I suggest removing this particular "stated goal" unless we can find out where it is stated. Bdell555 14:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I cannot believe how coniving some of you can be with your conspiracy tales. Rumsfeld was listing seven reasons for the mission in Iraq, the seventh being defending the wealth of the oil fields for the Iraqi people. There was no mention of going in there to secure this for the US. This is a blatant distortion. -Anon
I would like to know
I would very much like these points discussed on the talk page rather than by constant reversals. Thank you very much. Rama 16:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but at least one chemical weapon was found in Iraq, i believe it was in a roadside bomb used to sabotage an American convoy. Doesnt this make statements such as "No WMD were found" untrue? -- Henrybaker 21:23, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't know where the story which covered exactly when and where WMD found, but it is mentioned in this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq#2003_invasion_of_Iraq
--
Henrybaker
21:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Rama, if we can assume that one shell with chemical residue was found, then it would make it inaccurate to say that "no WMD were found in Iraq." However, it would still be accurate to say that "vaste chemical, biological and nuclear programmes... and the 45-minute readzable mobile chemical missile launchers..." were not found. -- Henrybaker 21:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Here is the article where it is documented that a shell containing Sarin http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html was found in Iraq. I submit that it is inaccurate to say that "no WMD were found in Iraq." I agree that it would be dis ingenuous to simply assert that "WMD were found in Iraq." The Opening paragraph, rather than saying "No WMD were found in Iraq." Should say something like "Insignificant amounts of WMD were found in Iraq" -- Henrybaker 21:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
This being an article on the invasion, are the details of the presence of WMD that were sought for post-invasion relevant? If it requires we wonder whether a canister with chem residue constitutes WMD, which actually isn't a trivial question (eg. are the quantities sufficient? was there a delivery mechanism for the chemicals? were the chemicals to be used for their own right or merely the canister? etc), I think we're off base. That important discussion should go to Iraq and weapons of mass destruction and Iraq war. Daniel Collins 21:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I changed the reference to WMD in the intro, noting that chemical residues were found, without stating that WMD were found, and avoiding stating that WMD were not found. In response to what Daniel Collins said, I don't know if it is relevant, but the intro flatly said that "No WMD were found" and i just don't think that statement is accurate without some kind of explanation. -- Henrybaker 21:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
This incident is also detailed in several Wikipedia articles, including here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_in_Iraq#Reports_of_chemical_weapons_finds_since_2003.
It is not an "isolated article by fox news." You said you wanted me to ascertain the story, but apperantly, you meant you wanted me to ascertain the story without citing fox news. Are you now doubting the veracity of the article? -- Henrybaker 22:40, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To be perfectly honest, the more i read the story, and the first paragraph of the article especially, the more i agree with daniel collins. The line about WMD does not belong in the opening paragraph. It is just floating there, with no apperant connection either to the preceding or succeeding sentence(s). -- Henrybaker 22:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Site David Kay's testimony to the Senate Commission and also site the Deufler Report as well. The ISG unit after the Iraq invasion testified to this and also the inspection teams by the UN after the invasion have also said that Saddam was going to reconstitute his programs as soon as sanctions were lifted and his manipulation of the oil for food scandal was another evidence of this. -Anon
Face it, the WMD scenerio that the anti-war crowd tries to use against the Administrations case is useless. The whole onus was squarley on Iraq to comply to UN Resolutions in order to plead its case. It failed to comply with UN Resolution 1441 and inspectors David Kay, Hans Blix (Dissarming Iraq pg. 90) and Charles Deufler agree to this.
Not so. Hans Blix stated in his last report said he was making progress. Iraq was cooperating. Read his report:
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm
The American government claimed that since Iraq didn't reveal the location of its WMDs stockpiles, it wasn't cooperating. How was Iraq supposed to reveal the location of something which didn't exist??? 15.235.249.71 04:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Vince Fiorito
There is a range of sources that now show that both the governments of the United States and the United Kingdom knew that Iraq had no WMD capabilities before the invasion, ( http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2076137.ece for one example) yet continued to sift through the intelegence looking for anything that could be construed to suggest the WMDs existed. Colin Powell for example quoted Hussein Kamal, Saddam Hussein's late son-in-law, as stating that Iraq produced 4 tons of VX while conveniently forgetting that Kamal also stated that the VX was destroyed and that Iraq possesed no WMDs. What are your views about including a sentence about the lies about WMDs we were told that have been proven to be untrue. It seems to me this article is incomplete without this information.
As with the media section, the one on WMD is perhaps overly long and amorphous. I suggest what content need to be moved over to Iraq disarmament crisis be moved, and then a synopsis of that main article be reproduced here. Thoughts? Daniel Collins 21:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
"What is clear is that Saddam retained his notions of the use of force and had experience that demonstrated the utility of WMD. He was making progress in eroding sanctions and, had it not been for the events of 9-11-2001, things would have taken a different course for the Regime. Most senior members of the Regime and scientists assumed that the programs would begin in earnest when sanctions ended---and sanctions were eroding." Testimony of Charles Duelfer Special Advisor to the DCI for Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction [20]
"Imad Husayn al Ani, Iraq’s former program director for VX, stated in an interview in 2003 that plans to produce thiourea and DCC, both of which he was unaware, indicated unequivocally that the Regime intended to reconstitute the V-series nerve agent program" [21]-- Silverback 20:19, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Well done Silverback. - Anon
I don't know why TDC wants to hide that info -- if anything, it refutes the theory that the organization was "controlled" by them, since CIA and Pentagon came to different conclusions about all of this. -- csloat 02:30, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Since that's the timespan during which the invasion took place, this article should only point to other articles, if necessary, that describe events outside these dates. Detailed treatment of pre-war knowledge of WMD or of the Kay report, for example, are out of place. I seek a coalition of the willing to assist in moving such details to their rightful home, and any voiced dissent so that this objective does not over-reach. Daniel Collins 14:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The 2003 invasion of Iraq was launched by the United States and the United Kingdom on March 20, 2003, with support from some other governments, making up what was described as the " coalition of the willing". After approximately three weeks of fighting, Iraq was occupied by coalition forces and the rule of Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party came to an end. For subsequent events, see Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005. The legitimacy of the invasion is disputed. The officially stated reason was that Iraq had failed to account for its Weapons of Mass Destruction or to fully cooperate with the inspections. However, the UN inspection teams were ready to continue the inspection, and even careful inspections after Iraq's capitulation failed to find weapons of mass destruction. and discuss all the rest later in the article. -- Stephan Schulz 14:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
So is this revised version of the introduction going to be used? -- Howrealisreal 00:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Here's my take: The 2003 invasion of Iraq was the start of the Iraq War, launched primarily by the United States and the United Kingdom on March 20, 2003, supported by N other nations, collectively termed the " coalition of the willing". The invasion stemmed from the Iraq disarmament crisis, during which Iraq failed to convince the U.S. and U.K., in particular, that it posed no threat from weapons of mass destruction, despite the on-going work of United Nations inspectors; Resolution 1441 was cited as legal justification for the war. Other nations as well as the UN disagreed with the invasion, its rationale and its legality. After approximately three weeks of combat, Iraq was occupied by coalition forces led by the U.S., ending the rule of Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party. The period that followed is detailed in Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005.
A "war" is a battle between 2 sides. An invasion is the specifica act of intruding military forces into a country. It's part of a military campaign by one side in the larger war.
When you say you are anti-war, you mean any of three thing:
Most "anti-war" activists when speaking about the Iraq War never said that they wanted Iraq's forces to stop fighting back against the Americans and British. Rather, they wanted the Allies to stop waging war against Saddam. (Or as some put it, "against the people of Iraq").
These distinctions are important, whichever "side" you are on. I hope that nothing but my 5 years of US military service shows in this discussion, and not advocacy on my part in favor or against Bush's decision. Uncle Ed 19:55, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
While reading the article I found an inconsistency in the "weapons of mass distruction" section:
This , from user Kulinda seems pretty old: 04:36, 14 May 2005. Somebody, with a funny sense of humour, had recently added (considered by some to be a month that hasn't yet occurred) right after "november 2005" [23]. Now the question is: how do we fix this? I suggest removing the whole edit by Kulinda, as it does not seem reliable anymore, unless it turns our he is a time traveler or - more likely - he just did a mistake confusing months or years. -- Nova77 17:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous contributor made a change to the first paragraph that seemed very POV to me. The wording they replaced said "some governments" had supported the USA and the UK in the invasion. They replaced this with a list of 29 of the nations who were now, or who at one time, were members of the "[[coalition of the willing]". Maybe it wasn't their intnetion, but this has a highly deceptive effect. This- article is about the invasion of Iraq, there is another article Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–2005, which puts the beginning of the post-invasion period at May 1, 2003. I'd say that when President Bush announced the "end of major combat operations" under the huge "Mission Accomplished" poster the invasion period was over.
How could this list include Turkey? Turkey may have joined the coaltion -- following the invasion -- but Turkey was a huge disappointment in the lead-up to the invasion. The USA wanted Turkey's co-operation to launch a second front, from Turkey. Turkey would not allow US forces to launch an attack from Turkish territory. It is highly deceptive to list Turkey as one of the nations that was supporting the invasion.
The list in the first paragraph could have included Australia and Poland. Australia and Poland also contributed actual ground troops to the invasion. Maybe there are other nations that could be listed. No nation should be listed as supporting the invasion because they were once members of the coalition of the willing if they only signed on after the invasion was over. I looked at the articles for all those nations. None of those article stated when those nations started supporting the coalition. Most of those articles don't even mention those nations membership in the "coalition of the willing".
I'm fairly certain that the only other countries that actually invaded Iraq were Australia and Poland, who both supplied special forces units. IIRC, there were 2000 Aussies and 200 Poles. Nudge 21:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Even if we had an authoritative list of those nations that had supported the invasion, while it was still in progress, I would question the value of listing those nations in the first paragraph.
I think the anonymous contributor should have done more research than crib the list from coalition of the willing. They did so little research that they didn't even check the links they made. This listed Georgia, a disambiguation page, rather than Georgia (country) -- a mistake they would not have made if they had checked the links they cited.
If the anonymous contributor reads the talk page, I would encourage them to sign in when they make edits. I called the effect to this edit "deceptive". I am going to "assume goodwill", and assume this was unintentional. But it has the effect of making the invasion appear to have had more international support than it actually had. -- Geo Swan 09:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
In the section Results (2003 Invasion of Iraq) the term "Terrorist activity" in Terrorist activity in Iraq by insurgents seems wrong.
According to wikipedia a terrorist is...
Terrorism, violence (especially against civilians) that is militarily insignificant but aimed at undermining morale.
Taking military action against invading armies of ones own country, is militia activity, or guerrilla warfare isn't it? -Wolfe 00:02, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
If you want to provide the official legal justification for the war, provide it and mark it as such. That would be UN Resolution 1441 and other applicable pieces of international law. But the reason Bush repeatedly stressed was that Iraq's arsenal of WMD posed a "mortal" and "urgent" threat to Iraq's neighbors, to the U.S., and world peace generally, so we had to take out Saddam to ensure that "the smoking gun" would not "come in the form of a mushroom cloud." That's how it was sold to the American people. It was claimed that there was a "slam-dunk" case that Iraq possessed tons of prohibited chemical weapons and had an active nuclear weapons program.
Noncooperation and poor accountancy are secondary reasons supporting the claim that Iraq possessed WMD, not the main reasons themselves. Specific legal justifications should be marked as such, not claimed to be the main stated reasons.
The phrase "continued Iraqi obstruction" isn't accurate because months before the invasion, the head UN inspector said that Iraq was cooperating "rather well." His biggest complaint about cooperation was that although they were allowing inspectors to go where they wanted, Iraq wasn't actively helping the investigation.
I also reverted to avoid the redirect from "Global protests against war on Iraq" to Protests against the invasion of Iraq. The 19:37 version also puts the date of invasion next to the time in the Opening Attack section, which isn't a bad idea. I'll restore the quote from the Duelfer Report. -- Mr. Billion 23:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Careful, Silverback. You just admitted that you think that Bush's reasons given to persuade the international community were not the real reasons.
The fact that there was a specific emphasis on the claim that Iraq had a threatening arsenal of WMD is the issue, because the point in question is what was the main stated reason for the war. If you believe that there were ulterior motives, you're welcome to make that case elsewhere. -- Mr. Billion 00:40, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, I take the fact that you're not even bothering to avoid re-inserting redirects into the article (even after they've repeatedly been pointed out) as evidence that you're less concerned with the quality of the article than you are with pushing your claim that the reason given for the war was poor cooperation and accountancy. The reason repeatedly and publicly stressed was the threat from WMD. Now that the WMD on which the war was predicated have been found not to have existed, you are focusing on other reasons, such as that Iraq did not sufficiently assure us that they did not exist. Mr. Billion 06:21, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
resolution 1441 inspections compliance Blix
will find the Blix reports in the first couple of pages. Here are a couple links you might want to read [26] [27]. There is no doubt that the US, UK and some others though Saddam was in breech of 1441, and that there were also other resolutions that he in breech of.-- Silverback 23:17, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
Resolution 1441 is Bush's claimed legal grounds, even though while the resolution calls for "serious consequences" it does not mention military action, let alone war, let alone the invasion of Iraq and the complete destruction of its government. Blair did hope for another resolution to make the war legal, but was thwarted when Bush barged into war.
The U.S. and U.K. tried to push through an additional UN resolution that could have allowed the use of force, but couldn't get it passed. The UN charter only allows the use of military force for self-defense or in accordance with UN resolutions calling for military force. Again, 1441 did not even mention it.
And Silverback, you try to use a selective quote from a report by Hans Blix to justify the war, but Blix himself has said that the invasion was illegal.
What was found by U.S. weapons inspectors undercuts the case for war; it does not support it. Even if Iraq had had an actual weapons program, it would have posed a threat not to the U.S. and its allies, but to Iraq's fellow "axis of evil" member, Iran. Duelfer's report found that Iran was Iraq's chief reason for wishing to reconstitute its programs. And the fact is, Iraq didn't have a chance of rebuilding its past programs. There was no indication that sanctions and other restrictions against Iraq were going to be dropped any time soon. It has been made clear that the UN's efforts to dismantle Iraq's weapons systems were quite successful, and those efforts had not slackened. And once again, even if Iraq's programs were to be one day redeveloped, their target would be the "axis of evil."
Iraq was a weak country. Dick Cheney declared in 1991 that Iraq's military capability had been virtually eliminated, and the country's military spending just before the invasion was a fraction of that of surrounding countries. -- Mr. Billion 06:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, you reverted with the text "rv to SB, if you are interested in article quality, please fix your redirect concerns BEFORE reverting, whatever those redirect concerns are."
No, I am not saying that I am inserting the redirects, I am saying that you are. It's simple. The redirect I am talking about is the one I pointed out in the first post in this section. The version you keep reverting to includes the link Global protests against war on Iraq, which now at least redirects to the correct article, Protests against the invasion of Iraq, but previously redirected to another redirect. It's generally good form to avoid redirects and especially dead-end redirects, particularly when you are claiming that one version of an article is better than another. You did not do so even after the problem was pointed out. I am saying that if you wish to use this particular introduction, you could at least try your hand at editing rather than using the buttons to revert wholesale. Look at the version to which you're reverting. There is no reason to re-insert those redirects.
As to your "ethical filth" statement: Please, try to avoid throwing around insults. -- Mr. Billion 07:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
No, Silverback, trying to fix the problem by erasing every sentence where that link occurs does not help any. The sad thing is that this is the closest you've yet come to any attempt at a compromise. -- Mr. Billion 15:27, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, all you are doing in this talk page is re-stating your own personal POV over and over. You have been repeatedly asked to source your claims that the "officially stated reason" for the war was "failing to account for it's WMDs", but you have responded with sources from Hans Blix. As if an officially stated reason is going to come from someone who isn't an official in the Bush administration. Your version of the intro is completely unsourced and is in direct contradiction with the sources provided in the previous version. If you want your intro to be taken seriously please provide Sources. Specifically a source of a Bush administration officially stating prior to the invasion that the reason for the Iraq war is Iraq's "failure to account for it's WMDs". Because as it stands right now your version is original research and has no place in an encyclopedia. 69.121.133.154 19:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
"even if the suspected WMD had been found, it would have been dwarfed in importance by what was found, and that was that Saddam intended to restart the WMD programs once sanctions were dropped."
The weapons themselves would have been dwarfed in importance by the mere desire for the weapons? You're not making sense. -- Mr. Billion 05:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Restarting the programs would not have been a "mere desire for".
You've jumped from talking about the intention to restart the programs to talking about the programs themselves. Mr. Billion 08:26, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
SB, even if the argument that Saddam Hussein actually had a threatening arsenal of WMD had been used "only" to convince the "intellectually dishonest" opposition, it still is the main stated reason for war. Reasons given to convince those not opposed hardly qualify as reasons. Again, if you believe that the "real" reasons were other reasons not used to convince the opposition, these "real" reasons of yours are not the main stated reasons.
Your "intellectually dishonest" attack is baffling. It is you who is trying to pretend that the reason given for the invasion was simply poor accountancy and withheld cooperation. Can you find a quote where it is stated by a Bush administration official that either of those is the core reason?
As Rama has pointed out, the claim was that Saddam had functioning weapons systems that could be put to use within one hour--the time frame given by Tony Blair was forty-five minutes. The reason given for why we had to invade before inspectors could finish their job was the allegation that Iraq possessed a threatening arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that had to be eliminated. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claimed on September 13, 2002, "There's no debate in the world as to whether they have those weapons....We all know that. A trained ape knows that." As it turned out, the trained ape's information was faulty.
You keep comparing the threat posed by Saddam Hussein to that posed by Hitler, but Hitler was militarily very powerful, actively expansionist, and actually had military allies. In terms of ability to pose a threat, Iraq resembled Germany rather less than you think. The comparison to Germany would make more sense if Germany's primary opponent in WWII had been Italy, since Saddam's main reason for desiring WMD was to make trouble for his fellow "axis of evil" member, Iran.
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said in 2003 that "the truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason."
You have provided no sound evidence or reasoning to support your claims, only mostly restated the original claim and your red herring "'arguments for' VS 'reasons for'" quibble. If the reason for invading was simply poor accountancy and compliance, then where did the "urgent," "mortal," and "immediate" threat come from? Weak cooperation? Bad accounting? -- Mr. Billion 03:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I see what you're saying. The next step is for the United States to invade itself for failing to account for the nonexistent Iraqi WMD. This could become a vicious cycle.
"It apparently is still unaccounted for." You're still somehow operating under the assumption that Saddam actually had these weapons, when the United States' own investigation found last year that Saddam didn't have these weapons, hadn't made any since 1991, and furthermore didn't have the ability to make any. Both Bush and Cheney have said that Saddam didn't have the alleged WMD.
But at least now UN sanctions are not killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children.
Another red herring.
Regardless, your reply only responded to the question of where this urgent threat came from. You still have not shown evidence that the primary reason Bush & Blair gave for invading Iraq was simply its "failing to account" and not cooperating fully. -- Mr. Billion 08:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The real thing, the serious stuff I knew you guys didn't really want a cite, because the attempt at another resolution on this basis was common knowedge
One quote from an interview does not make this the "main stated reason" for the war. It's a nice retort to the Wolfowitz quote, though, so good for you.
You've used a quote to support your statement that "Bush and Blair worked for a UN resolution authorizing the war," but left out the part where Powell says he's not sure that it will explicitly authorize the war. Regardless, the resolution didn't fly, so the point is moot. And Powell gave that interview a week before Blix's statement that Iraq was cooperating on process "rather well." The war wasn't waged because "well, Iraq was cooperating rather well, but not well enough."
Again, cooperation and accounting are issues secondary to WMD. The American public did not accept the war simply because of poor accounting. They were convinced by the "urgent threat" said to be posed by the weapons Saddam allegedly had.
A few posts ago you expressed that you think the weapons were real and are still out there somewhere unaccounted for. You said that there was a threat posed by these unaccounted-for weapons. But at the same time you've been saying that the war was needed because they weren't accounted for, not because they posed a threat. Somehow you're still trying to fit your assertion that the war was about poor accounting inside this persistent belief of yours that Saddam had this threatening arsenal of WMD. -- Mr. Billion 01:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I have problems with the introductory paragraph. It reads as vague and poorly written. Passive voice, etc... It is also POV (Saddam Hussein was President too, yet this title is only given to Bush). Furthermore, more than half the content is about the rationale/legality concern, not the actual event. The invasion was a very isolated event in this continuing saga that is U.S. involvement in Iraq, and this article goes far beyond the scope of its title. In the interest of not ruffling too many feathers, for now im willing to leave parts of it in. My suggested rewrite is as follows:
Initiated on March 20, 2003 by the United States with the support of the United Kingdom and several other nations loosely defined as the " coalition of the willing", the "2003 invasion of Iraq" marked the formal beginning of the Iraq War. Swift in execution, the invasion followed the military doctrine of Shock and Awe. Baghdad fell on April 9th, 2003 and on May 1, 2003 U.S. President George W. Bush declared the end of major combat operations, for all intents and purposes terminating the Ba'ath Party's rule and removing Iraqi President Saddam Hussein from office even though he would ellude coalition forces until December, 2003. A transitional occupation began thereafter and among other topics, is covered under Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005. Prior to the invasion, the U.S. tried and failed to secure a U.N. mandate to intervene in the interests of U.S. national security and international stability. Thus, the legitimacy of the invasion is a point of contention. The request to the U.N. Security Council was based on intelligence reports showing Iraq to have weapons of mass destruction capabilities. The legal justification involved Iraq's implied violation of several U.N. Resolutions, particularly UN Security Council Resolution 1441. [33]U.S. president George W. Bush repeatedly claimed that these weapons posed a significant and timely threat to the United States and its allies. [34] [35] Much of this intelligence is now under scrutiny and of questionable veracity. In the days before the attack, the Iraqi government repeatedly denied the existence of any such facilities or capabilities and called the reports lies or fabrications. [36] U.N. inspection teams, in and out of Iraq since the Gulf War, while willing to continue the search were ordered out as war loomed. This article covers the particulars of the invasion. For more general information see Iraq War, U.S.-Led Occupation of Iraq, Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005.
Please comment. I'll clean it up a bit and then make the changes if acceptable. ImagoDei
RonCram has been trying for a long time to include original research on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page connecting Able Danger to the alleged conspiracy between Saddam and al-Qaeda. The connection between these two is speculation that Able Danger may lead to questioning the 911 Commission's credibility in this matter. So far that has not occurred, nor can he produce any mainstream press accounts that connect these issues. Thus, the connection he asserts is original research. We've been successfully fighting his addition of this research on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page; so now he has inserted it here instead. You can look at the Talk:Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda for more information about the arguments. I will revert his changes here and I encourage others to do so as well; if his conduct there is any indication of how he will behave here, it is possible that he will continue reverting and posturing in talk: without ever responding to the arguments. -- csloat 18:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
csloat, you are changing the subject. There is no original research because several media outlets have covered the remarks of Rep Curt Weldon talking about the damage to the 9/11 Commission's credibility. He has even spoken of a possible "coverup." For you to attempt to keep this information from readers of wikipedia is the worst kind of censorship. You are acting as an attorney trying to suppress evidence in the court of public opinion rather than as a wikipedia editor seeking NPOV. Second -regarding the report of a "pact," you have a funny way of saying there is no evidence while we are discussing the evidence. And you have a funny way of calling on the authority of the 9/11 Commission which ignored (or was not aware of) the published reports on the "pact." If you seek corroborating evidence, you need only see that al Qaeda did hit a US target in the region just over a year after the pact was agreed to. You have heard of the USS Cole, right? Third, regarding Senator Hollings - you claim to have won some debate about Hollings on Saddam Hussen and al-Qaeda but if you read the article, the Hollings speech is still in the article and has been for some time. I am uncertain how you consider this a victory for your side. Regarding your comment about my medication, I do not think that exhibits good wikiquette. Just to ease your mind, I can tell you that I am in fine health and take only vitamins. I am not on any medication. - RonCram 15:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Deletions without any discussion are simple vandalism. Deletions with long-winded arguments attempting to keep out information readers deserve to have based on POV is not much better. If you wish to delete portions of my contributions, I suggest you see if you can find someone who agrees with you my entry is irrelevant, unsourced or otherwise unworthy of inclusion. If it is possible to find a fair-minded person who agrees, I would love to discuss it with them. - RonCram 15:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I think I would tend to agree that most of the material in that section belongs in the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda article. Would it be possible to get that section in this article down to just a couple of paragraphs, relying on readers to follow the link to the other article if they want more information? I realize that article itself is currently in dispute, and has seen lots of recent allegations of bias, 3RR violations, etc. But using that page as the venue to deal with the controversy seems like a better approach than having the controversy play out on multiple, less-related pages.
On the information in Ron's recent edit, I'd agree that there are problems both in the specifics (like citing avowedly partisan sources like The Weekly Standard and Fox News without noting their partisan nature) and in the general tone, which is to basically argue for a Saddam/al-Qaeda connection that most relevant authorities have concluded is unlikely. But at the same time, I think Ron deserves credit for making a good-faith effort to be sensitive to the requirements of NPOV. -- John Callender 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Below is a quick summary of my changes; I think this covers everything:
1. Kept RonCram's addition of the 1998 article in there. I don't think it is necessary but if others do, it should stay. I've changed the language and context for more POV and accuracy. This article should not leave the impression that RonCram's version conveys that this was a big piece of evidence missed by the Commission and Committee -- it was a mistaken report by an Italian reporter (I'm not sure who said "alliance" but let's say two reporters) based on the prevailing wisdom of the time (1998), which turned out to be wrong. In 1998 the NSA thought that Saddam and AQ were teaming up, and launched a "red-team" study of the issue (The NSA's position was different from CIA's, and the NSA goal was to prove the CIA wrong). Well, they failed -- they were unable to find the connections they assumed were there (more info here). So it is clear that people around the president at the time believed that Saddam was connected to AQ, but when they souught evidence for this they turned up dry. I mention this because RonCram makes a lot out of articles from this time period, when many people believed there was a connection, but there had been far less investigation into the issue than there is today. By now the prevailing wisdom of intelligence analysts and of the mainstream media around the world suggests that no evidence has emerged to support a Saddam-AQ connection. RonCram has every right to disagree with all of those experts, but he is not correct to demand that Wikipedia make his case for him.
2. Contextualize Powell quote with what he said in 2005, and add statement about the intelligence community's analysis of the "links". I could add further detail here if people want but all this info is available at Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. I am not sure how much duplication is necessary here; I would prefer to cut a lot of this section out completely and just refer people there.
3. Include info on al-Janabi and the INC. This stuff is also on the other page but if we are going to include this information here it should be put in context.
4. I removed the sentence "Evidence of the relationship is contradictory" because it is not backed up by the information on this page. There is nothing contradictory about it at all. There were some exploratory contacts between Saddam and AQ and they led to nothing.
5. Contextualized the Senator Hollings thing. I really think this does not belong here at all. Senators and Representatives enter all kinds of things into the CR and it does not appear in an encyclopedia. The fact that Hollings read an op-ed piece as evidence of foreknowledge is meaningless -- even if it were true at best it would prove that bin Laden's plans were an open secret in parts of the Islamic world. But even that is not supported by the flimsy textual analysis Hollings offers. But let's say this guy knew OBL was going to blow up the towers. How is he connected to Saddam? He writes an op-ed piece in a "state-run" newspaper? I work at a "state-run" university in California; does that mean that if I know about a crime, it can be assumed that Arnold Schwarzenegger's administration was involved in it?? I feel ridiculous having to spell this out; it is difficult for me to believe that anyone can give this credibility.
Look, if there was really a collaboration between Saddam and AQ, where is the money trail? Where are the weapons? The evidence of planning together? The big things, not shadowy meetings that are disputed by other sources, or bizarre readings of op-ed pieces in local newspapers.
6. Got rid of Able Danger. Contrary to what RonCram thinks, I am not "afraid" of this information. If it was relevant, someone besides Wikipedia editors would have mentioned it. No article on Able Danger has seen fit to mention any of this. If Able Danger turns out to prove that the Commission lied or covered up a connection between Saddam and AQ, that would certainly belong here, but so far that has not happened and nobody is even speculating that it will happen (except on Wikipedia). This is not the place to explore such possible future worlds -- if mainstream newspapers start mentioning it then it belongs here. Otherwise Ron's assumption that the Commission's credibility on this question will be tarnished is "interesting", but it is original research. I've made this argument a number of times above and on the Talk:Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page, but Ron does not seem to want to let it go. Can others offer their opinions on this? -- csloat 22:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
User Silverback just reverted all the changes I made with a cryptic edit summary. He has been doing this kind of massive reversions on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page as well, and he does not respond to arguments or discussion in talk. I spent a lot of time rewriting this entry in good faith to include the arguments introduced by RonCram, even though I did not agree with the significance of those arguments. I also spent time writing my justifications for every change, which are listed above. Silverback reverted almost all of it without responding to a single of the justifications above. I have implored Silverback to stop this behavior on his user:talk page. He is not only reverting here; he is deleting relevant information wholesale. I hope I am not alone in perceiving such edits as highly problematic.-- csloat 01:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, um, why do we have this page whereas there's the much nicer, and NPOV, article at Iraq War?
The provide citations don't support Spains 90% opposition figure in the article. I haven't removed that figure yet, perhaps someone can come up with the citation. We need to be careful with the language, to avoid giving the wrong impressions by mixing polling results from different time periods with different questions and circumstances. For instance, the gallup polls which are cited are from January, before the invasion of course, but many then were still hoping that the UN would act responsibly. The poll results might have been different just before the invasion, after the UN had not responded good faith efforts at a new resolution by the US, UK and Spain. Of course, we will never know what the pre-war poll results would have been had there been general knowledge of the oil for food corruption's possible influence on the UN decision making.-- Silverback 14:19, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_2003_Invasion_of_Iraq --Theo Pardilla 13:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I realize he is just baiting me because of the RfA against him, so I don't plan on tinkering with Silverback's recent (minor) edits. But I want to first point out that his most recent edit summary refers to "indiscriminately reverted information" yet it isn't clear what he's talking about; he's changed the wording slightly but added no new information. More importantly his earlier edit adds the word "unspecified" and claims inexplicably that that is "more clear" ... Actually the stories are specified and detailed on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page if anyone wants to list them all. "Some unspecified information" just sounds ludicrous so it would be better if it was rewritten in a manner that made more sense. I'm going to lay off it though because I don't feel like getting sucked back into an edit war with Silverback, which he seems to be trying to do both here and on the other page.-- csloat 00:28, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The header and the link to the main Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda would remain, here is the proposed replacement text for this messy section:
-- Silverback 09:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
vote here sign with [\wiki]-- Silverback 09:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[\nowiki]
I would tinker with this a bit - first of all the redundant phrase "in the past" has to go, at the very least, and there should be some indication of the Admin's strong implication that Saddam was connected to 911 rather than the wishy-washy "might conspire to launch terrorist attacks." Actual quotes from Admin members would be best here I think. Second, I'm not sure we should have the same exact paragraph in two places. Third, I do not want to see the information that is here deleted if it is not on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page. The Sahab story needs to be there if we're deleting it from here. A vote, I think, is premature.-- csloat 20:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The header and the link to the main Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda would remain, here is the proposed replacement text for this messy section:
-- Silverback 07:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
vote here sign with [\wiki]-- Silverback 09:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[\nowiki]
I don't think it's necessary to call for a vote for every change, especially when there don't seem to be major obstacles to consensus. I added the Sahab story to the timeline on the other page so it can safely be deleted here; I haven't read the rest of the section carefully enough recently to say whether there is anything else that is not included in the timeline but we should do that before deleting it here.-- csloat 05:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
"Coalition of the willing" is a loaded phrase which includes the implicit judgement of "willing" and the misleading "coalition". The impression given is of a large number of nations in alliance toward a common purpose is at odds with the invaders constituent sources being primarily the United States and Britain with a numerically minor component from other nations. This is in comparison to the first Iraq war which could be more fairly described in its essential character as a coalition. --Theo Pardilla 13:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Rama, yes normally i would be inclined to agree with that method, however, it is most often applicable when supporting text identifies the source and has contextual explanatatory information in the surrounding text. The problems with the current quotation marks method being used in the introduction are
Therefore i suggest
--Theo Pardilla 10:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
On Oct 25, User Reddi made about 50-60 massive changes without edit summaries; all characterized as "minor". I am tempted to revert them but I want to give him a chance to explain himself. On first glance, the changes seem quite major, and seem designed to obscure the fact that no WMD were found in Iraq. Can someone else confirm this? Can Reddi explain what all that was about? Thanks -- csloat 22:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I reverted back to moving the inline links to a proper reference section. JDR 14:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC) (PS., the NPOV-fork of Iraq War at War of Iraq to delineate the informal and formal uses of that term) (PPS. The Iraq Survey Group David Kay interview was taken out of context. But I'll put it back in with the references ...)
I would like to note that the David Kay's interview "statement" is unsourced (the one Tibbsy cited above)... as the link goes to a dead page and the person that put it in didn't give a title or any other information ... there is nothing there @ the linked page ... a better citation than that is needed! It seems to be taken out of context ... but I'll look around if I can find a better references page ... and verify the "quote" ... JDR 16:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and revert all of Reddi's edits again. Adding 30kb worth of references does not help this article, even considered solely from a readability standpoint. And the POV as Csloat mentioned doesn't help either. And here's the so hard-to-find missing source Reddi was talking about: [47]. Lexis Nexis is known for allowing online links one moment, then not the next. And it's not that I'm against a Reference section, but in long, heavily sourced articles like this one only the most important sources can be ReReferenced, instead of just embedded. That certainly isn't a new idea, imagine if George W Bush was similarily ReReferenced. - Mr. Tibbs 05:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Where are the observations of Iraqis on this subject?
No i mean really this seems like some sort of self indulgent uni frat debating. It sort of reminds me of the Blues brothers film when Jake and Elmo are in a bar and one of them asks a patron what sort of music she likes and she replies "oh I like both types, Country and Western". It seems like the priviledged elite are locked inside of an incestuous echo chamber endlessly banging on, fighting and slappping each other on the back. Yes the posers are all so concerned with bringing democracy to Iraqis or preventing them from being slaughtered by foreign invaders that it would be beneath their social station to actually ask them what they want or their observations or opinion or to include it on these pages.
--Theo Pardilla 14:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I have a question. Since everyone seems to refer to this as the "Iraq War" now. How would everyone feel about renaming this article to "Iraq War" or "2003 Iraq War". I mean, techinically, an invasion is what happens in the first days of a war. that was 3+ years ago. So I would think that using this nomenclature would be more accurate for the current state of affairs. Feedback is welcome. Thank you . Joetheguy 23:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
But trying to re name a war that started three years ago shouldnt be a topic. My concern is are we going to withdraw once and for all? please Feedback. Kenaoshi8 02:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Kenaoshi8 Kenaoshi8 02:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm shortening the section on "deaths" to just the link, for two reasons.
I am also changing the title to "casualties" and adding such a field to the infobox, following the pattern set in other conflicts. Are there any objections to these three changes? Twin Bird 02:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The casus belli in the infobox currently says "Official allegations Saddam Hussein was harboring weapons of mass destruction and had ties to terrorists have been proven false." (emphasis added). While it is certainly a likelihood that these allegations are false, they have not been proven so, and cannot be proven so without some sort of evidence that the Bush administration knowingly lied regarding WMDs. The source cited discusses not evidence of absence but absence of evidence, and I have changed the sentence in question to reflect that. I believe it is now less biased and more logically accurate. If anyone disagrees with the change, let's discuss it here. Also, the cited website is no longer active, so if someone could find a similar un-broken link, that would be good. AdamSolomon 19:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user has changed the sentence "In October 2002, with the " Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq", the United States Congress granted President Bush the authority to "use any means necessary" against Iraq, based on repeated Bush Administration statements to Congress and the public, which turned out to be incorrect, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction." to say "...based on intelligence that suggested a high probability that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction."
The majority of the Congress and the American public were convinced to approve of the invasion of Iraq because of exaggerated claims made by the administration, such as the alarming claim that "final proof" of Iraqi WMD would "come in the form of a mushroom cloud" if the U.S. failed to invade Iraq. Congress was convinced, not because of any particular intelligence, but by its trust of the administration's convincing arguments. It's sometimes claimed that Congress saw all the same information as the President in making its decision to grant the executive power to invade Iraq, but that is not accurate.
"But Bush does not share his most sensitive intelligence, such as the President's Daily Brief, with lawmakers. Also, the National Intelligence Estimate summarizing the intelligence community's views about the threat from Iraq was given to Congress just days before the vote to authorize the use of force in that country. In addition, there were doubts within the intelligence community not included in the NIE. And even the doubts expressed in the NIE could not be used publicly by members of Congress because the classified information had not been cleared for release. For example, the NIE view that Hussein would not use weapons of mass destruction against the United States or turn them over to terrorists unless backed into a corner was cleared for public use only a day before the Senate vote."
Senior administration officials repeatedly failed to fully disclose the contrary views of America's leading nuclear scientists, an examination by The New York Times has found. They sometimes overstated even the most dire intelligence assessments of the tubes, yet minimized or rejected the strong doubts of nuclear experts. They worried privately that the nuclear case was weak, but expressed sober certitude in public. One result was a largely one-sided presentation to the public that did not convey the depth of evidence and argument against the administration's most tangible proof of a revived nuclear weapons program in Iraq.
The same anonymous user has also erased the observation that lots of people have been killed in Iraq by various armed groups going around killing people they don't like. The user called it "unsubstantiated political opinion," yet it was clearly cited.
So I am reverting these changes. -- Mr. Billion 20:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
For example, the NIE view that Hussein would not use weapons of mass destruction against the United States or turn them over to terrorists unless backed into a corner was cleared for public use only a day before the Senate vote.
I think it would be wrong to state that the administration was the only deciding factor on intelligence. But who said that? Where did that come from? I am saying that the administration's PR campaign pushing for invasion of Iraq was clearly the most important element in convincing Congress to authorize the invasion, so it would be misleading for the article to say that Congress passed the Iraq resolution based on some particular piece of intelligence.
based on repeated Bush Administration statements to Congress and the public, which turned out to be incorrect
I'm not sure what you mean by "This is irrelevant in respect to the question at hand and thus not manipulative." But the statement you're saying is a straw man is merely pointing out that the administration's claim that Congress saw all the same intelligence as the executive branch saw is not accurate, and that even some of the most important information that Congress did see wasn't cleared for use in public debate until very late in the game.
If you want to argue that that's an argumentative fallacy, "red herring" might come closer to fitting, although I don't think it does. A
straw man is an argument where a person misrepresents his opponent's argument to make it easier to knock down. For instance, if Person B claimed that Person A was arguing something ridiculous such as that the administration was the only deciding factor on intelligence, when in fact person A was actually arguing something quite different, that would be a straw man.
The UN report you linked concludes that "Iraq did not provide the full cooperation it promised on 14 November 1998." It is intellectually dishonest and historical revision to claim that this supports the American administration's claim that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more
immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."
You've provided no evidence that any governments or press services have "dismissed" the BBC article saying that the UN's chief anti-torture expert said that torture may be worse now in Iraq than under Saddam Hussein. But I think your point that death squads and brutality would fit under "sectarian violence" is a good one, so I won't argue that point any further.
--
Mr. Billion
06:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
How many news agencies reported about government-based death squads?
Answer:
Several.
To be clear, though, the iraqi government is factious and only parts of it (the parts loyal to
Muqtada al-Sadr and the parts controlled by the
Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution In Iraq, as far as I can tell) support death squads. Not the whole government.
The majority of the United States was convinced to accept the invasion of Iraq based on assertions that Iraq posed an immediate and mortal threat to the United States and its allies. Not based on how dishonest the Iraqi government was. --
Mr. Billion
09:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of removing the line "(Later on, during the invasion, it was rumored that Turkey itself had sent troops into the Kurdish part of Iraq.)" from the second paragraph under "Military Aspects." There are alot of interesting rumours floating around but, as far as an encyclopedia goes, facts with sources seem more fitting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.24.138.34 ( talk) 21:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
I changed the first paragraph to make it a little less POV. The first two lines now read "The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States officially began on March 20, 2003. The alleged objective of the invasion was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people".[2]
'stated objective' was changed to 'alleged objective' and the synonymity of the '2003 invasion of Iraq' with the words 'Operation Iraqi Freedom' by placing them side-by-side in the opening sentence is no longer a problem due to the removal of the latter from said sentence.