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This is an archive of Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq
A recently updated bit. [1] Perhaps someone here can better articulate this revelation. It's certainly being seen as the final nail in the coffin for the Iraq war by many. --AWF
The proper military term for a massive armed incursion is "invasion", but proper context is needed. The term Iraq War - April 2003 Invasion is the most precise, best way to title this article. 66.98.130.204 07:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
"Iraq War - April 2003 Invasion" is a pretty bad title, since... didn't the invasion begin the preceding month? -- Mr. Billion 16:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Um, if March 2003 is correct, then it's Iraq War - March 2003 Invasion. Clearly, the term "Iraq War" can be used to refer to the current or most recent war in Iraq. Prior wars can be titled 1991 Iraq War, or whatever. What's needed is a semantic consistancy in the titling of articles relating to this over-arching topic, that being, the war in Iraq. And the reasons we call it Iraq War - ___ is that people search wiki the same way they search google - a few key words. The key words here are "Iraq" and "war" 192.168.232.76 07:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I also think that Iraq War - ___ 2003 Invasion is an appropriate title. If one is looking for a specifically less inflammatory title, you can use "incursion" instead of "invasion". Tigerhawkvok 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Comments that some might have forgoten to mentioned is the words the '2003 Invasion of Iraq against the wishes of The United Nations and other countries' which someone took out from the article on John Howard and I am wondering why they done this becausen't wasn;t The UN against the invasion? 2.38am 13/2/2006
The article would be more properly titled as Operation Iraqi Freedom - 2003 Insertion. Insertion meaning the movement of troops into Iraq. As far as the term invasion it is defined as "incursion of an army for conquest or plunder" and I don't believe the US Military has plundered or made a conquest in Iraq. The term invasion is more identifiable with Hitlers control in Europe during World War II, and Saddams actions leading to Opertaion Desert Shield and Storm. After all, have we not trained and armed the New Iraq Military and help them institute a new government? Swelling20 10May2006
I think the picture of the arrested Saddam should be removed from this article, as it goes in the time of the following occupation (December 2003).-- TheFEARgod 20:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes...but the mission IS the article. Thus it should stay, right?
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SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
17:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm of two minds on this issue. Yes, it did happen after the invasion. But he was the leader of the country before the invasion, and went into hiding sometime during it. And he was captured by the occupying forces. I think some mention should be made of his capture, but be careful to not to parrot the Bush administrations attempt at rewriting history i.e we really went to war to catch this evil man, not his non-existant WMD's. Just a short mention and a link to the relevent article. Imroy 17:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
While it did happen after the invasion, he was the leader of the country and therefore should be included in its discussion. That's really all there is to it. Tigerhawkvok 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, it has been the policy of the US government since 1998 that the government of Iraq should be changed. It should be included as a relevant fact. It was bipartisan policy that Saddam had to go as of that year TMLutas 23:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC) never mind on the above, it was in a later section.
In pre-attack developments, I think it's relevant the 1995 revelation that Iraq had a pretty well developed bioweapon program that had been entirely missed by inspections. It's likely that this episode was a significant reason why later assurances by Blix were taken with a huge grain of salt by the US.
TMLutas 23:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The details in the first paragraph are a little incorrect. The Special Operations activities took place on 19 Mar - before the air bombardment - plenty of newspaper reports and acknowledgement of this now. Also, in fairness, we should remove reference here to just the Australian SAS as they were "but one" of the many special forces units to cross the border into Iraq on that day (TF20, UK SAS, Australian SAS, US Special Forces etc). 203.15.73.3 04:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually Special Operations units had been active in Iraq for at least 5-7 days before the invasion. Hell, I was in just a vanilla recon unit, not special operations or anything, and we were over the border 2 days before the invasion begun.
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SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
14:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This information should be included on the page when it is unprotected.- csloat 21:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
If you're including that information, make sure he's properly titled as LTG William Odom (U.S. Army, Ret.), or the less official Lt. Gen. (Ret.) William Odom.
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SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
06:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I seriously doubt Antarctic scientists got out of their research stations and proceeded to protest in the bitterly freezing temperatures. But if they participated from within their complexes, well, then I suppose the statement is accurate. However, I doubt this is the case--though I am unsure--and recommend that it be said that protests took place on all "inhabited continents" or the like. -- Marsbound2024 01:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Admins please add the template I added on Gulf War and Iran-Iraq War articles. Thank you.-- TheFEARgod 17:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It confuses me that Americans are pissed off that France won't join in this war and use the excuse of 'we sacrificed our soldiers on your beaches in ww2.' France sacrificed its navy and its treasury during the AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE WAR in order to save America. So both of your nations are equal I'd say.
France was only interested in fighting in the American War of Independence as an excuse to fight Great Britain and to hopefully end Britain's attempt to create an Empire and to hopefully clear the way for a dominant French Empire.
I am not american myself, but the impression seems to be that France is the only country thats being criticized by the americans on this issue. most likely because they were the first to wield the veto card. "freedom fries" anyone?
Perhaps the World would prefer America to return to its Isolationist policy from between the end of the First World War to Pearl Harbour. Perhaps the World would also like the consequences America's refusal to get involved in foreign affairs during this time had upon the World and what ultimately happened because of it. After all September 11th was the Pearl Harbour of the 21st century. America doesn't ask for war, it's thrust upon it.
Perhaps you should educate yourself in why the United States did what it had to protect Freedom and Democracy. The United States did what it did in those cases you states above under the idea that all peoples around the World should be entitled to Democracy regardless of what dictators, communists, or terrorists may want instead. Would you have prefered the United States not to have done what was needed to protect Freedom and Democracy and for the World to now be dominated by dictatorships and communist regimes with terrorist attacks being used over and over in an attempt to destroy those who seek Freedom and Democracy. But I doubt you would be able to excercise your Freedom of Speech in the way you have in this desired future of the World you hold. Perhaps next time you should list the things dictators, communists, and terrorist have done and just how many millions they have killed such as how many millions dictators such as Stalin killed and how many millions died in their revolutions such as the Chinese Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. Also perhaps you would like to explain to the Billions of People around the World today who would give anything to have the United States bring them Freedom and Democracy from whatever oppresions they may be suffering why it is you think they should be denied this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.187.55.154 ( talk • contribs).
It's not just American soldiers that want to get out of Iraq, most other nation's troops want to go home as well. It's not because they are cowards, but that as far as they see it, they have done what they set out to do. They were told that they were going to Iraq to remove Sadaam Hussein and find his WMDs. They have removed Saddam Hussein, and there are no WMDs. So now the soldiers feel betrayed and that their opions and needs have been forgotten. I'm sure that they are very pleased to see George 'Dub-Ya' Bush and Tony Blair saying that everthing's great, when in fact the situation is getting worse by the day. Brit in Manchester, England. 'Mission Accomplished'? Bollucks.
New polling information should be incorporated into the article, but I'm not sure where?
Source: [3]-- csloat 18:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Why should this poll be any different than the thousands of others that have been taken over the last few years? Should everyone of them be included? When did polls become encyclopedic? It doesn't matter if Soldiers and Marines want to be there or not they will go where they are told and they will accomplish the mission assigned to them. As they have always done. Opinions are not encyclopedic. Ask yourself if 5 years from now this poll will mean anything and will it be relevant in this article? -- Looper5920 12:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me be the one to say that just because you were there does not mean that your opinion is more right than anyone else that was not there.-- Looper5920 13:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a talk page and not the actual article - POV is expected - its how consensus is reached ie. several people sharing a POV. He/she is quite right to put forward their opinion on the research. Your vague argument about NOR would only be valid if the opinion was placed in the article. BTW csloat is as anonymous as 203.15.73.3 - you simply have an anon registration. Me thinks you simply didn't like his/her POV. BTW I agree the poll should be included but only on the post invasion article. Like it or not there were different phases. Australian Forces for example had Operation Falconer for the invasion (lots of offensive ground and air forces) and now for post invasion it is Operation Catalyst [6] (about defensive role - protecting Japanese reconstruction engineers). Krait 07:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I added terrorism and sectarian violence to the section about what resulted from the war but someone removed it. Why? Especially the latter article should be noted here given that it is kind of the continuation of the violence in Iraq that started with the invasion. Nameme 03:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think this section is lacking NPOV? There was propoganda on both sides I believe. Krait 09:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
This photo won the world press award: [7] Any chance to get it? Or similar ones? Nameme 14:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Please take a look at the talk page of Iraq war in order to see a translation of the featured Arabic version of this article. Thanks to Eagle a m n! AlIAS 21:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC) TwoThirty notes the following on his talk page: The important differences between the Arabic article and the English article are:
I think this article is lacking in some good information in several areas (see above comment and arabic language article). In addition there seems to be some 'unqualified' statements, such as "Post-invasion Iraq is plagued by violence caused from a mostly Sunni Muslim insurgency, and by terrorism of the Al-Qaeda militant network.". This statement, for example, could use some npov phrases like 'is alledgedly caused by' and etc. Sicarii 22:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
As I'm arabian , I can say that the article mostly are acceptable and neutral ... but it really lacks what mentioned above about the previous debate about the legality of the War ... considering the Oil as the important reason of this war is frequently mentioned not only by arab journalists but also by european ... if u return to the logos carried by European Protests b4 the war , you can find many statments like : No War for the Oil . --
Chaos
10:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that this paragraph is POV:
I think it is POV to say who "caused" the violence. The violence is identified as an insurgency. In order for there to be an insurgency, there has to be someone they are plotting an insurgency against. Who are they plotting an insurgency against? And why are they plotting it? And wouldn't it be fair to say, then, that the invading group is partly responsible for the violence caused by their Sunni's attempted insurgency against them? Shouldn't it read something like, "Post-invasion Iraq is plagued by violence as a result of a continued power struggle between the Sunni Muslims and the US and US appointed Iraqi government"? Andrew Parodi 05:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I's not a civil war in the Western sense. Extremist Muslims have for many years, in many locations around the world, been hostile and violent to each other between sects. The fratricide among Muslims in Iraq right now, is part sect-driven but this in-fighting is also being driven by insurgents who wish to fan the flames of discord and chaos. The situation in Iraq is more complex than what you say. Merecat 03:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
In the preamble we read "... mostly Sunni Muslim insurgency." I do not see any source referenced about this claim and generally consider such one without being backed by facts as POV. If it was me, I would put the insurgency facts in a section and mention just the insurgency, leaving the reader to make up his/her mind. Of course, the selection and ordering of the facts in the section also should conform the NPOV. -- Goldie (tell me) 07:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no single side being "good guys" and the other being the "bad guys". The Shia-dominated "police" is also responsible for the violence and harsh treatment [8] [9]. It is never that simple, and blaming someone is a blatant POV. -- Goldie (tell me) 18:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Any further reason why this article is tagged NPOV? I am more then willing to do any needed research to quickly remove this tag. What was the original complaints for this, the line stated above seems to be long gone. -- Zer0faults 23:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm just starting to slog my way through this and only had to go to sentence 5 and 6 to find something that is an NPOV problem. The sixth sentence "Bush repeatedly asserted that these weapons posed a grave and imminent threat to the United States and its allies. [2][3]" is especially egregious because the external links contradict instead of reinforcing the point. Neither speech uses the word imminent and the 2nd is quite clear that the danger was gathering and that we should act prior to it becoming imminent because of the uncertainty factor of all intelligence assessments. The actual term favored by the administration was "gathering" not imminent and we shouldn't be stuffing words in their mouths. That's the very essence of NPOV. TMLutas 23:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The first was written before Saddam failed to comply with the Resolution and before France said they would not vote for further resolutions, violating the terms of the Resolution itself. Also the UN failed to meet after 30 days as well. Your second link from truthout.org, a historically bias site, doesnt even talk about the Iraq War and instead is a article about Bush and war crimes, the 3rd article has at its heading "The Constitution in Crisis; The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Coverups in the Iraq War" Do I have to really comment on its bias? Its also not a document related to the discussion as it attempts to say Bush should be put on trial for various US crimes and war crimes etc. So you gave me one article written after the passing of one resolution but before its time ran out, and two things about Bush being tried for war crimes. I would reccomend you find better sources as obviously bias organizations as sources may be seen as POV pushing instead of factual representation of information. -- Zer0faults 15:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the second was not what I intended. The actual article I have to look for. As to the 2 others, they both discuss the legality of the invasion. I fail to see why the date makes any difference in analyzing. The first article discusses clearly the arguments you advance, and it clearly dismisses them as incorrect.
Nomen Nescio
Gnothi seauton
15:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The legality of the war was discussed.
Nomen Nescio
Gnothi seauton
15:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag was added but no mention was made as to why the user thought the article was POV. After reading the article, the scales seem to sway from side to side but no one side is heavier than the other. I looked into the reverts over the "war on terror" issue and it seems the argument is more of an issue of facts and misunderstanding than a issue of POV. The user fighting to censor the wording from the article seemed to have a strong biasness about not having the war on terror wording included in the article by going to extremes of using a sock puppet. The users who voted to leave the "war on terrorism" info on the page make very logical but simple arguments.
For example: Mmx1's states, "The 'War on Terrorism' was launched by the United States, and claims the War on Iraq is a part of it. Regardless of your opinions on the matter, it doesn't change the fact that the main protagonist in the war considers it a campaign of the 'War on Terror'." The statement is a very simple fact that the United States political heads consider it part of the "war on terror" [13]campaign and wikipedians do not decide if the US is wrong in doing so. No other implications are made and is a completely NPOV.
On the other hand, a rebuttal by user Hermitage states: "This is a weak argument. Every war has at least two sides. In this case, one side is the US and its allies (UK, South Korea, etc.), and the other side is a guerilla insurgency. First of all, I'm not even sure that all of the coalition partners would agree..."
Without the need to go any further, it is obvious that Hermitage has POV as the user is going straight into a counter strike without completely understanding Mmx1 statement, showing editing with emotion and a refusal to open his/her mind to the discussion. Hermitage missed the fact that Mmx1 is basically stating that an entity started a campaign and then performed the work in the name of that campaign and that’s it. If the table was turned, the result would be the same. An entity (Iraq) started a campaign (war on world domination) and then attacked a country (USA). Iraq's campaign would be "called war on world domination" and the attack on the USA would have been part of the campaign. The rest of the ensuing arguments are reiterations of the above statements with the NPOV editors trying in vain to show they do not have POV.
Considering the overall magnitude of the event and the huge amount of biased emotions on both sides of the war/invasion, this article is going to be tagged as POV constantly. As of right now, however, the article seems evenly balanced. Some of the facts and statements may need citing (or removed if sources cant be found), but that doesn’t make it POV, it only means more research needs to be done by NPOV editors and changed accordingly. I'm going to remove the tag since no argument as been issued as to why it was originally added and because sources have been provided linking the use of the words to describe a campaign called "war on terror" with the Iraq invasion. I already forgot 14:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.asp?id=11552
Should this be mentionned? According to this article, Turkey invaded iraq early in the invasion to prevent a stream of kurds fleeing north iraq.
Evilbu 23:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.geocities.com/Iraqinfo/sanctions/sarticles4/slow.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2874635.stm
Those are some of my sources. I understand if you relocate it but it should be included. Evilbu 12:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Given the Kurdish problem lasting decades, and the unrejectable fact that Turkey did invaded the Iraqi soil both before and during the war, I cannot understand the rationale not to mention Turkey's involvement. Logistical assustance is one thing, troops counting tens of thousands is another one. It was actually a second front on land (and was not that late as the Normandy one). -- Goldie (tell me) 07:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Well i think it shouldn't be mentioned unless more sources are found regarding the subject. Because I found the article quite inaccurate since America wanted Turkey to "enter" the war. I found a sentence that contradicts this fact.
The following information is related to parts of the article, but I am not sure if it fits here: Insurgencies, frequent terrorist attacks and sectarian violence lead to harsh criticism of US Iraq policy. [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]. After the Al Askari shrine bombing in February 2006 the US ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad warned that sectarian violence spread might lead to a civil war in post-invasion Iraq and possibly even the neighbouring countries. [19] De mortuis... 02:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed an article at 2003 invasion of Iraq/temp, which I presume is a stalled attempt to rewrite this page. It's not been touched for a month and a half. If it's not going anywhere, could someone familiar with the page merge it in and redirect, or flag it for deletion? Thanks. Shimgray | talk | 19:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see what the opposition is to mentioning failure of cooperation as a causus belli. It was a major part of the pre-war debate. You want the speeches, [20] May 18,
{Since then, the world has engaged in 12 years of diplomacy. We have passed more than a dozen resolutions in the United Nations Security Council. We have sent hundreds of weapons inspectors to oversee the disarmament of Iraq. Our good faith has not been returned.
The Iraqi regime has used diplomacy as a ploy to gain time and advantage. It has uniformly defied Security Council resolutions demanding full disarmament. Over the years, U.N. weapon inspectors have been threatened by Iraqi officials, electronically bugged, and systematically deceived. Peaceful efforts to disarm the Iraqi regime have failed again and again -- because we are not dealing with peaceful men. }
France, Russia and Germany, hoping to derail the war, begged Iraq to comply with inspectors: [ [21]]
They weren't begging him to give up drones, but they were begging him to cooperate with inspectors, indicating they felt that step would remove impetus for the war.
-- Mmx1 22:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq's neighbors and against Iraq's people.
He even goes on to admit that he has failed to receive international support:
"Today, no nation can possibly claim that Iraq has disarmed. And it will not disarm so long as Saddam Hussein holds power. For the last four-and-a-half months, the United States and our allies have worked within the Security Council to enforce that Council's long-standing demands. Yet, some permanent members of the Security Council have publicly announced they will veto any resolution that compels the disarmament of Iraq. These governments share our assessment of the danger, but not our resolve to meet it. Many nations, however, do have the resolve and fortitude to act against this threat to peace, and a broad coalition is now gathering to enforce the just demands of the world. The United Nations Security Council has not lived up to its responsibilities, so we will rise to ours." [26]
However, earlier on in the Iraq disarmament crisis on September 12, 2002 Bush Did state "cooperation" as a push to action:
"In 1991, Iraq promised U.N. inspectors immediate and unrestricted access to verify Iraq's commitment to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles. Iraq broke this promise, spending seven years deceiving, evading, and harassing U.N. inspectors before ceasing cooperation entirely. Just months after the 1991 cease-fire, the Security Council twice renewed its demand that the Iraqi regime cooperate fully with inspectors, condemning Iraq's serious violations of its obligations. The Security Council again renewed that demand in 1994, and twice more in 1996, deploring Iraq's clear violations of its obligations. The Security Council renewed its demand three more times in 1997, citing flagrant violations; and three more times in 1998, calling Iraq's behavior totally unacceptable. And in 1999, the demand was renewed yet again.
As we meet today, it's been almost four years since the last U.N. inspectors set foot in Iraq, four years for the Iraqi regime to plan, and to build, and to test behind the cloak of secrecy.
We know that Saddam Hussein pursued weapons of mass murder even when inspectors were in his country. Are we to assume that he stopped when they left? The history, the logic, and the facts lead to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence. To assume this regime's good faith is to bet the lives of millions and the peace of the world in a reckless gamble. And this is a risk we must not take." [27]
On October 7, 2002 he even goes so far as to explain what he means by cooperation:
"Clearly, to actually work, any new inspections, sanctions or enforcement mechanisms will have to be very different. America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Among those requirements: the Iraqi regime must reveal and destroy, under U.N. supervision, all existing weapons of mass destruction. To ensure that we learn the truth, the regime must allow witnesses to its illegal activities to be interviewed outside the country -- and these witnesses must be free to bring their families with them so they all beyond the reach of Saddam Hussein's terror and murder. And inspectors must have access to any site, at any time, without pre-clearance, without delay, without exceptions." [28]
And exactly what Bush demanded, Bush got: Iraq cooperated with the inspections, and Blix said that, and Bush never contested it. This is why Bush drops all the talk about cooperation and instead switches to deception and further pumps up the supposed WMD threat. See the difference between Bush talking about the possibility of Iraq having WMDs in his September 12 speech and then talking about the Certainty of Iraq possessing WMDs in his March speeches. Iraq met Bush's demands regarding cooperation so Bush made more demands and then just flat out said the inspectors were duped. And thats why saying "cooperation" as a casus belli is weasely. -- Mr. Tibbs 07:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
this article is middle-school quality, it focuses almost entirely on past issues, somewhat connected to the followup to the invasion. someone should redo the article and actually discuss the invasion of iraq and its aftermath.apparently there was not an actual shooting war, just diatribes lobbed back and forth at the un general assembly and silly council. {unsigned|68.1.44.149}
I agree it needs more coverage of the war itself, but calling it middle school quality is hyperbole. The pre-war debate was easy to source and a HOT topic of POV debate, hence the attention. Now that we have emerging journalistic sources, the combat phase should be updated.
--
Mmx1
04:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is impossible to write at this moment in time. Until jingoists are laughed out of all intellectual mediums there will be rabid backlash.
The Wiktionary article 2003 Invasion of Iraq is likely to be deleted shortly, and I do not know where (or if) you folks over here want these translations, but rather than lose them I am passing them over to you to do with as you please.
(all translations by User:Tedius Zanarukando) - TheDaveRoss 23:05, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
At any given time, what the president/administration says is the USA's position, is the USA position. Anyone trying to say this is not so, is wrong. Merecat 02:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
"That the Bush Administration had little or no tangible evidence of a threat."
Where is the source on this, or any information that can be found reguarding this issue? I think there should be more information expanded on why there was no tangible evidence of a threat. As far as I can tell, it is pretty empty. Although
Iraq_War-_Rationale Does talk about how there were no links to Al-Qaeda, if thats what was being refered to.
KungPaoChicken
07:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone really,i mean REALLY EVER believe that Bush is giving one bit of thought to WMDs?A reminder:Petroleum prices are 500% in IRAQ now.Even Republicans should be knowing it.for honesty's sake,admit it.Please.-- CAN T 20:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Can we get some discussion on the proper extent of the intro? -- Mmx1 03:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I totally disagee. This is a politically charged topic. I'd just as soon put "The Iraqis are now freer than they have ever been" at the end of the intro, but that doesn't belong there either. This is not about the war, it's about the 2003 invasion. The logical ending point of the invasion was the capture of Saddam. Merecat 20:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
There are two separate parts to the removed sections. The lack of WMD is not a result of the war but a questioning of the rationale and belongs in the body. The ongoing sectarian violence I can see going either way. -- Mmx1 20:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The intro currently ends on too negative of a tone. The fact that freedom is increasing and democratic elections have been held, must be mentioned. Also, "plagued by" is too POV. Neutral wording must be used. Merecat 13:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
My assessment that freedom has increased in Iraq post Saddam, is not unique to me. Merecat 16:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The Yellowcake Connection Merecat 00:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Let's get some other heads on this. Hermitage has been removing the "partof: War on Terrorism" from this and the Iraq War article. The "War on Terrorism" was launched by the United States, and claims the War on Iraq is a part of it. Regardless of your opinions on the matter, it doesn't change the fact that the main protagonist in the war considers it a campaign of the "War on Terror." -- Mmx1 02:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
And the fact that terrorists are most definately being fought against now makes this an absolute part of the War on Terrorism. Rangeley 02:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Since Iraq had no connection to terrorism prior to this invasion, it is highly inappropriate to adopt the
talking points of this administration. We know there was no link to terrorism, we know there were no WMD (the official position of the administration) so on what grounds is this part of the war on terror, except as form of manipulating public opninion through a form of
doublespeak/
newspeak? No factual basis exists for using this
misnomer, only political arguments are advanced. By that same token the
invasion of Iran is part of the war on terrorism. Iran supports
Hezbollah, Iran is about to share technology with terrorists (where have we heard this before?) so as part of fighting terrorism the US has to invade Iran.
Nomen Nescio
09:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I strongly reject the positions being advanced by Nescio. This category is indeed one that applies to this article. Any sugestion to the contrary is not supportable. Merecat 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Nescio, whether we as editors accept something as true, is not what gives it currency with the public. This usage definately falls within the framework of the usage of the term. Stop making fights all the time. You keep pushing a two part POV of a) there is no "war on terror" and b) USA is legally "wrong" for taking military action. Please stop it. It's like listening to a broken record. Merecat 15:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
According to National Review Online "Iraq Is the War on Terror" Merecat 19:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
"Sixteen Words, Again" Merecat 19:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
You misinterpret my words.
Give it a rest Nescio, the truth is piling up and it does not support your anti-USA world view on this topic:
"As journalists, scholars, and analysts pore over more of the intelligence haul seized when U.S. forces toppled the Iraqi regime, the case for removing an America-hating terror-monger responsible for the brutal torture and murder of — literally — tens of thousands of people looks better and better." [29]
Merecat 20:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Iraq had ties to terror, this has been proven. Saddam gave monetary support to families of suicide bombers as incentive, as just one instance. What you are thinking of is ties to Al Qaeda, which are debatable. Saddam supported terrorism, but regardless of this, a given reason was to fight terror, and further, terrorists are being fought today. It is an interesting POV to say its not part of the War on Terror, but it is as logical as someone who is opposed to the Vietnam war to say it wasnt part of the Cold War. Rangeley 20:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This is what a self-fulfilling prophecy looks like.
[30] Again it is the cause of terrorism, not fighting it.
Nomen Nescio
12:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, your argument here, though perhaps well reasoned, is original research. Public history of that term supports it as a category for this article. You can argue against that all you want, but it won't fly. Merecat 17:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Saddam, being deposed, is not moving the public debate anymore. However, this category is not exclusive. If you can cite another legitimate one, we can also include that. Merecat 05:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
To say that the Iraq war is "part of the war on terror" is definitely a POV statement. It's a matter of opinion that can't be proven or verified. Thus, it has no place in an encyclopedia caption. Better would be to put a section about that in the article body. Something like "...The Bush administration and its supporters claim that the invasion of Iraq is a part of a larger "war on terror". However, critics contend that..." To put it in a caption implies that it is universally true, when in fact it is quite debatable. Don't state controversial premises as fact in captions. -- Hermitage 08:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Amen, Hermitage. I second that. Definitely POV, and if anything it should go into the body of the article as a "claim" by the Bush administration.
Just because there are terrorist acts going on means nothing - by that rationale, any war fought my the US could BECOME part of the war on terror, and we could invade any country, detroy its military, and when its people in desperation turn to terrorist acts, we declare that we are fighting the "war on terror" there - and voila, the war is now legitimate, even if it wasn't at the start. Very clever, but it has no place in a wikipedia caption.
-- Borisknezevic 10:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, Hermitage and Boris, but NPOV does not mean the truth has to be abandoned when someone disagrees. For instance, some people still beleive the world is flat. But they are wrong, and we do not need to accomodate their oppinion in the Earth article. The idea that the world is round fits all criteria of a fact. It has been proven through experiments, it has been proven through flight, and finally through space. These are the applicable criteria for that case.
Now, wars are admittedly different. You cannot do a scientific test, however a criteria exists for determining what the war is a part of. Each war is different. In order for something to be considered part of World War Two, a key criteria is that it is fought between the Axis, and Allied powers. The Cold War is quite similar. In order for conflicts to be considered part of the Cold War, the combattants had to be US/Capitalist alligned vs Soviet/Communist alligned. Through this, such conflicts as the Vietnam War, Korean War, and various other minor conflicts are considered part of the Cold War even though the two Super Powers never faced each other directly. The Cold War was filled with proxy wars, and these proxy wars are considered part of the cold war.
The War on Terror is not much different. The criteria for the war on terror must be understood. It has been said both "The War on Terror begins with Al Qaeda, but does not end there." And that any regime supporting terror is considered the same as the terrorists themselves. Perhaps the name has confused you, but it is no more an endorsement of the conflict than calling the Cold war the Cold war is. The War on Terror happens to be the name of this conflict. If you consider every part of the War on Terror worth fighting, than you are absolutely ok to feel that way. If you feel that not every part of the War on Terror is worth fighting, you are absolutely ok to feel that way. If you feel no part of the War on Terror is worth fighting, you are absolutely ok to feel that way. But just like with the vietnam war - despite it not having support its still part of the Cold War - your oppinion on this part of the War on Terror holds no bearing on whether or not we can name it correctly.
There is no legitimate reason to not have the name displayed, only political views that are not welcome. It would be POV for someone to put up "The most vital part of the War on Terror" and it would be POV to put up "Allegedly part of the War on Terror." And it is definately POV to make an exception for this war, while the standard set by other war articles is quite clear. Do not respond with a debate against the justifications for war, or anything political, because whether or not the Iraq War is legal, justified, or necessary has as much effect on its naming as it did with the Vietnam War - None. Rangeley 15:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
There's something crucial you are missing. It is precisely the fact that the war on terror as you define it has nothing to do with Al Qaeda or any particular organization, or goes well beyond as you put it. Thus it is nothing like the Cold War, or the Korean war, or any other such war between two discernible sides. Phrased the way you see it, it is a purely one-sided phenomenon - a mantra of rhetoric invoked for political convenience when fighting ANY conflict. Or a war on an inanimate object - such as drugs, for that matter. That is a much better comparison, by the way - for the war on drugs, like the 'war on terror' in your formulation, is pure rhetoric. Anyone who deals drugs is the enemy. Anyone who deals in terrorism is the enemy. Thus political violence - i.e. terrorism - in that iteration is never legitimate, even if done as a form of resistance to injustice, occupation, apartheid, racism, oppression, etc. Mind you, some of the US's key allies in the so-called war on terrorism are oppressive, undemocratic, militaristic regimes such as Pakistan. Interesting, huh?
But even the Bush administration I have to say would not take the view you have of it. Perhaps you should take a look at the Wikipedia article on War on Terrorism. Terms that stand out:
"international terrorism"
'"state-sponsored terrorism"
'"global" struggle against violent extremism"
The insurgency in Iraq as we all seem to agree is complex, but to the extent that it is a local movement of resistance to the occupation, it is neither international, state-sponsored, nor global, nor for that matter 'extremist' - but nevertheless terrorist through and through. Got it?
It would be one thing to state in the body of the article that the Bush Administration claimed Iraq had links to terrorism and that it is part of the war on terror, etc. But by putting it in the caption box, Wikipedia is endorsing the rhetoric. By the same token, the US could invade any country in the world as part of the War on Drugs - which could literally be ANY country if you think about it, just as any country would give rise to terrorist resistance if occupied - and legitimtize the occupation on Wikipedia by putting it in the "War on Drugs" box.
-- Borisknezevic 00:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Well guess what Nescio, I am not Bush and I am not USA gov., so I am not the "You" in your reply. And you know what, if the USA formally declared military action against ETA and called it part of the War on Terror it would be. Same with Iran. Unfortunately for you Nescio, this is called "driving the debate" and the USA is doing just that with this naming convention. Whether you agree with the USA on this point or not, that is what's happening and no amount of denying that will change the underlying fact, which is: A large military power does indeed set the vernacular for those conflicts it engages in. It might not be just, but it is what occurs. Please stop fighting the obvious. Wikipeida does not promote or unpromote anything. You are seeking "unpromotion" of this fact and that's POV. Please stop. Merecat 19:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
De mortuis..., do you even know anything about history? For example, in the USA, the term The Civil War is well known and well understood. However, there are a sufficent number of loons out there who refuse to refer to it by anything other than The War between the states. For that reason, there exists a redirect to guide them to American Civil War. Frankly, you are doing the exact same thing: You are hypothicating against the validity of the term War on Terror from an irrational perspective. Of course the name is propaganda. So were the terms New Deal and War on Poverty. Are you going to tell me that the National Industrial Recovery Act was not part of the "New Deal" simply because those terms were "propaganda"? Stop being so obtuse. This line of dead-end argumentation is beginning to grate on me. Please stop. And before you again leap in with wrong arguments, what about the term Iron Curtain? The West invented it, the West used it and certainly the Russians did not like it. But no one in their right mind would say it's not viable terminology. Merecat 22:28, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
No, you have confused the issues. What merecat was just talking about is the validity of the term, War on Terror, for the purposes of naming the conflict. While some disagree with it, it is nonetheless (currently) the most widely accepted name in the English language for this term. Just like we call the Vietnam War the Vietnam War, despite other languages (notably Vietnamese, who call it the American War) not necessarilly calling it the same. This is the English encyclopedia, and we use english names here. For instance, the article about the nation of Germany is located at the english name at the country, not the name they call themselves. As most people in the English language call it Germany rather than Deutschland, the article is named accordingly. Likewise, most people call it the War on Terror in the English language, and it is named thusly. But whether or not you rename the conflict the War Against Militant Islam, or the War Waged by Neocons, the Iraq War and subsequently this article will be part of it as it fits the criteria of this war. Rangeley 01:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
You make a very good observation: "if the 2003 Invasion of Iraq is not part of the War on Terror, then what's it part of?" To answer that question, it would make it a war of aggression, and thereby a war crime. Sufficient reason to propose the adoption of euphemistic language.
As to the war on terror. Since terrorism is a catch-all phrase, it opens up the possibility that every intervention can be seen as part of the war on terrorism. Members of this administration have admitted that in the hypothetical situation that a granny in Switserland gives money to a organisation helping refugees can become a terrorist suspect. The rationale is that when the organisation is said to be helping terrorism, anybody helping that organisation is considered a terrorist. Even if this old lady is unaware of all this and is not in anyway willing to support terrorism she still is seen as a terrorist. And invading Switserland to arrest her becomes part of the war on terrorism, as it was in the case of OBL and Afghanistan. Further, since terrorism is present in many countries (although not AQ related, but mostly local groups) this now means that if the US were to invade these countries (again, even if there is no AQ link) the mentioning of the word terrorism would by your logic mean that that too is part of the war on terror. This effectively means that anything the Bush administration considers terrorism (which is alot) ipso facto becomes part of this war, claiming no limit (in time or location) to this war. It is not part of Wikipedia policy to promote political manipulation.
Nomen Nescio
13:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for supporting the view that certain parts of this war on terror are amoral. However, morality is not what I am talking about. The USA cannot unilateraly determine what exactly constitutes terrorism and thereby what is part of this war. What is amoral is the fact that this is exactly what the Bush administration is advocating. Furthermore, the war on terrorism is a US invention, which means that it is not mandatory for other countries to adopt the applied definition. Clearly, by using the US administration's stance this is not a NPOV statement. Many countries disagree with what the US considers terrorism. Even worse, by the administration's definition, victims of terrorism are defined as terrorists.
Nomen Nescio
15:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Since I do not deny the existence of this war I fail to see your point. But suffice it to say that many non-American media do not use the US based definition. Which was my point.
Nomen Nescio
15:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, you guys just don't quit do you? There was never any chance that Iraq was going to succeed in delivering WMD via conventional means to USA. That leaves only unconventional risks, ie; "terror" usage type risks regarding WMD's from Iraq. Your logic of "WMD = Not Terror" holds no water. Indeed, USA went to Iraq due to the risk that Iraq might strike at USA with WMD. Whether those fears were founded or not, USA did indeed lump Iraq into the War on Terror pot. You may argue that this was unjustly done, but it was done none the less. USA's current assertion of might against unconventional threats is called the War on Terror both by the USA and in much of the English speaking world. Whether this stems from there having been "ameri-centric" influence driving the adoption of that term in the public forum or not, is irrelevant to the fact that the the term has been adopted and if interpreted on the basis it was introduced (and is being used) in the English vernacular, it's use as a category here is correct. Merecat 17:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
De mortuis..., when editors ignore even the most basic facts of history, then such questions will arise. However, I can always agree that politeness is best, so sorry that I offended you. Having said that, Chomsky is about as unreliable of a source as you could possible cite, and for that reason, I don't give a rat's you know what, about what he says. Polling Chomsky about USA national security related topics, is like polling the KKK about the NAACP. Noam Chomsky is a committed anti-USA zealot. That you would even cite him is very revealing as to where you think the "center" on this issue is. As for the cite from the Guardian, here is how the sentence reads From this it seems that the so-called "war on terrorism" is being used largely as bogus cover for achieving wider US strategic geopolitical objectives. Your citing of the Guardian story supports my analysis here in that a) the term is acknowledged, even overseas, as being extant and in use by USA and b) there is resentment against the USA for pursuing it's interests. The very fact that the Guardian wrote an article denouncing the War on Terror as a "bogus cover", proves that the USA is using that term - if only for a cover. The debate here has not been whether the term War on Terror is a valid term from the perspective of outsiders from USA accepting USA motives and actions. Rather the debate here has been about whether or not the term War on Terror is in use, has it been used to describe USA actions and should we allow a category called War on Terror to be attached to this article. As far as I am concerned, the Guardian story settles the debate about semantics; the term War on Terror is in use and it does refer to USA actions grouped under that title. Now, because the opposition to a category called War on Terror (said opposition based on arguments of 'no actual usage') has been answered, I see no other complaints on this topic. The category War on Terror is valid. Also, see links here:
Additional links which affirm usage of term "War on Terror"
These four links are the top 4 which Google returns for "War on Terror". Please note that the 1st is USA military, the second is BBC in the UK, the third is Washington Post and the 4th is Amnesty International USA. Each and every on of these sites make clear that the term is extant and in use in the English speaking world. We are writing the English wiki. The only objection which had any merit was Kevin Baas regarding WMD was the Casus Belli and his inference that such a rationale predated "terrorist" concerns with Iraq. Of course, I did (see above) show Kevin's premise on that to be false. At this point, all objections have been answered. Unless something new comes up, I fail to see what objections are left regarding a category called "War on Terror". Merecat 23:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Straight off Amnesty Internationals page on the War on Terror: "For over three years Amnesty International has reported allegations of torture, ill-treatment and deaths of those held in US custody in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantánamo, and elsewhere. Join Amnesty International USA’s special initiative Denounce Torture: Stop It Now!" They dont have a seperate page for the Iraq War, its included in the conflict known as the War on Terror. Rangeley 01:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
What the government calls something does not always stick. If its catchy, it tends to. Most people call the Iraq War the Iraq War, though the government called it Operation Iraqi Freedom. Even from the get go most people called it the Iraq War. The War on Terror, on the other hand, proved catchy enough to remain the most popular english name for it. Some put it in quotes, others do not. But the fact is, if you asked most people what they called it, it would be this. If the government named it the War to bring peace, who knows if it would have caught on, I for one am glad we dont need to deal with that one. But yea, I already adressed this at the bottom of the page, so check there too. Rangeley 01:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Nescio immediately above you said this: "Nobody denies there is a war on terror, it is disputed whether Iraq is part of that". But, in your same posting, you go right on ahead and post a quote from commondreams which says Despite the trillions being spent worldwide to combat terrorism, there is no war on terrorism. This bears repeating: There is no "war on terror." [38] Nescio, I am not going to discuss this with you anymore. You are so inconsistant in your logic and assertions that I can only conclude you have no interest is resolving disagreements. Merecat 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hermitage, the word you seek is "determinative", not "valid". There is no such thing as us saying a term is "invalid" on it's face. However, there is such a thing as us agreeing on what will be the determinative measure of defining usage here. Once again, for the final time, during the Cold War, when USA opposed communists, USA used terms such as Eastern Bloc, Berlin Wall, Iron Curtain. Back then, the USSR definately did not agree with USA usage of these terms. However, at no time did USSR opposition to those terms become the determinative measure that defined their usage. If you can't understand that, then well, this will never be resolved. Anyone caring to know what War on Terror means, how that term is being used, what the objections to it are and how the term was coined, etc., can get all that information by clicking the link and reading the article. That category link serves as a topic aggregator, is posted on various WOT related pages and is highly beneficial to the readers. Also, it is simply inarguably true that the USA has applied and does apply the term War on Terror to post 9/11 military and other actions which seek to (among other things) eliminate asymmetrical threats. Is any reasonable editor here going to argue that " terrorism" as typically practiced, is not an "asymmetrical threat"? Of course not! The simple fact is that a category of War on Terror is semantically correct and accurate vernacular in English for the topic to which it refers. And it's also accurate to apply that category to this article. Each objection raised above has already been answered by me several times. Merecat 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Nescio and Hermitage, please stop going in circles. If Kevin Baas wants to speak for you both and make a new posting with arguments on this, I'll answer him, but I am not going to repsond to your broken-record complaints on this anymore. Merecat 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You put forward critocisms of the name, some of which were purely political (they are from an editorial afterall, its to be expected) and others are more legitimate; for instance the name "War" implies a front line, two sides, two armies, and that sort of thing. Unfortunately, the name Cold War also falls short on this. It was not a typical war, but a string of related conflicts that came together on a common theme. It also included related events that were not even war necessarilly, such as the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Blockade, the Berlin Wall, Iron Curtain, and other various 'peaceful' things. I do not see you objecting fervently to the name Cold War, so I have to think that you are driven by purely political reasons for your objections to this. Another objection - that the Iraq War was done for political reasons, can also be said about the Space Race. It was a technological race to get into space, just to say you could do it. But its still considered part of the Cold War. Why? Because it took place between the Soviet Union and the USA. The 1980 winter olympics in which the USA beat the Soviet team is considered part of the Cold War as well. Its simply ridiculous to discount the Iraq war when it has a much clearer connection - the two sides are actually fighting each other. And as for your argument that the Iraq War did not begin as part of the War on Terror - which I disagree with for reasons stated numerous times before - The same can be said about the 1980 Olympics (both of them). One had the victory of the USA over the Soviet Union, the other had the large boycott due to the Afghanistan invasion. Its ludacrous to say "they didnt plan it as part of the cold war so it doesnt count." But that is essentially one of your arguments. There is no debate that terrorists are being fought now, so obviously it is part of it currently. This in itself should end the argument, but you will undoubtedly keep on talking and keep on vandalising the article despite having no legitimate reasons to do so. Rangeley 23:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you did not read, because my analogy had not been discussed previously. It explained clearly that events not even intended to be part of the Cold War were included in it, such as the olympics. This precedent removes all reasonable doubt that the Iraq War is currently a part of the War on Terror. As to your other point, this has been discussed. I have already said conflicts on this English encyclopedia are placed at their most commonly used English name, as is anything. The Vietnam War is located there, whereas in Vietnamese it is most commonly called the American War. Perhaps other languages also use this name, or perhaps it is more commonly called something else. Whatever the case, the most commonly used, and recognizable name is used. I highly doubt terrorists call it the War on Terror, however they would not question the conflicts existence. But their name for it, much like the name "American War," is not used in English as the title of the war, and would not be recognized as well as the War on Terror. There are even other English names, such as Long War, World War 3 or 4, but these are not as widely accepted and widely known. Until that happens, and its possible for it to (The War to End All Wars ---> World War I), Wikipedia will continue to keep the name at the War on Terror.
But yet again, this is irrelevant to whether or not Iraq is part of the war. It is an issue with the name of the war, but regardless of what we call it, Iraq is part of it. Rangeley 01:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Read my reply above, for it already addressed that. Rangeley 01:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The more and more wikipedians and civilians alike dig into the Iraq war/War on Terrorism/Invasion of Iraq/Gulf War 2 the less we know. I particularly like this comment, '"You make a very good observation: "if the 2003 Invasion of Iraq is not part of the War on Terror, then what's it part of?" To answer that question, it would make it a war of aggression, and thereby a war crime. Sufficient reason to propose the adoption of euphemistic language."' If you payed attention to the U.N. charter and its implications upon the Invasion you will find that the Iraw war falls directly under the terms of "an act of aggression." We went to war on false pretense and are continued to be led by fictional or idealistic purposes. We aren't really bringing democracy to the Middle-east because we are doing the work for the Iraqis. A democracy requires self-governing, self-liberation, and self-independence. If Iraq doesn't start that way then it can't become a democracy. If we had any respect for the ideals of democracy we would understand it is best for the people of Iraq to decide what to do and let them do it. At least the "democracy" "justification" is what is the most popular fabrication. Ironically in the "shock and awe" of the 10 of March 2003, we had a very different notion of what we were there to accomplish. We all know the "Mission Accomplished" procalmation on a U.S. Navy carrier makes it all the more silly. And what a silly war it is. The "war on terrorism." Good luck with that. Wait, what is terrorism? If it means something similar to the action of terrorization, then doesn't that make the U.S. military/gov't terrorists?-- Existential Thinker 19:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
There are online forums where you can quench your thirst for political debate, I myself belong to one and would gladly give you the link of you so desired. However, Wikipedia is not a political forum. You have given us a political view to ponder, but it is not my job to respond to your view with my view as this is not a political debate. Even the most unjust war can be part of a larger conflict, many say the Vietnam War, or Soviet Afghanistan Invasion were unjustified. But they are still part of the Cold War. Sometimes, in the name of democracy, the USA would prop up dictatorships solely to combat communism. But its still considered part of the Cold War. You have interesting views though, and it would be fun to respond to them point by point, however this is not welcome at Wikipedia. I would also point you to other responses above where a lot more has been said than in just this one response, because they may prove useful to you. Rangeley 19:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Rangeley, you weaken your own argument for adding the partisan title "war on terrorism" to this article (and others). As you illustrated everyone refers to and the universal descriptor for the vietnam war is the "vietnam war"--not the "war for the liberation of south vietnam" or the "war on communism in vietnam." Adding the "war on terrorism" label is simply inserting a partisan POV--it is not providing an accurate description. As you clearly wrote, Wikipedia is not the place for political debate it is the place to put the facts and descriptions. For the Iraq war, it's pretty obvious that "war on terrorism" is a label that is open to dispute, while no one would argue with the simple label "Iraq War"-how about we leave the title at that and leave the rationales for war for the debate floor not the wikipedia. Publicus 20:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The Vietnam War is not the universal name for the war. As I said above (again, please read the preceding discussion as it covered all of this) in the Vietnamese language, the name for it is the American War. In other languages, like Chinese, it may hold a different name as they have had wars with Vietnam and would not likely consider the US one as "The" Vietnam War. It is the standard of the English encyclopedia to use the most common, and most recognized name in the English language for all topics, including countries whose official name differs from the most commonly used English name (think Germany). If "The War on Communism" was the most commonly used name for the Cold War, thats what we would call the Vietnam War a part of. But it isnt the most common name, "The Cold War" is. And thats where we are with The War on Terror, it is the most commonly used name for the conflict. Rangeley 21:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
We need to keep focus here. The question as to whether Wikipedia should have a category War on Terror at all is settled. The real argument is whether Iraq War and 2003 Invasion of Iraq belong to that category. In that light the links provided by Merecat above are worth looking at in detail.
DefendAmerica - U.S. Defense Dept. War on Terror
This site only shows that the U.S. government views the Iraq War as part of the war on terror. Up to now no one involved in this debate has found a Wikipedia policy that says Wikipedia should reflect the U.S. government POV, instead of the neutral POV.
"War on Terror": Amnesty International's Human Rights Concerns
The Amnesty International report deliberately puts quote marks around "war on terror" wherever it appears because they do NOT accept the Bush administration's definition of the term. Hard to see why Merecat thinks this is helping his case.
washingtonpost.com: War on Terror
There are 95 stories in this "Special Report" devoted to the "War on Terror", spanning July 2004 to April 2005, and yet only 3 of those stories refer to Iraq. I think it's fair to assume that the Washington Post had more than 3 stories about the Iraq War during that period. This is strong evidence that as far as the Washington Post is concerned, the fact that an article is about the Iraq War does not, by itself, make it an article about the War on Terror.
BBC NEWS | In Depth | War on Terror
The link is to an page specifically about Al-Qaeda. Nowhere does the page suggest that the Iraq War is part of the War on Terror. What's very interesting however is that there is a link on that page to a news analysis entitled US 'forgetting war on terror. Pursuing the link, we read the following commentary:
So here we have a major counter-terrorism official very specifically disputing the view that Iraq War is part of the War on Terror. Simply put, the categorization is disputed, in this case not by a left-wing extremist but a member of the establishment who has devoted his career to fighting terrorism. That, by itself, is grounds for not including Iraq War in the War on Terror category. Brian Tvedt 02:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, the links pulled were a survey of the top 10 results from google:
So by the rough google estimate, out of the first 10, 6 conflate Iraq and WOT, 1 does not, 2 are indeterminate, and 1 says there's no WOT at all. Seems like the prevalent usage conflates the two.
So in sum, you have individuals criticizing the categorization of Iraq under "War on Terror" (which is natural), but effectively, for purposes of discussing the "War on Terror", both the institutional supporters (and initiators), and institutional opponents of the war treat Iraq as a subcampaign. -- Mmx1 03:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This is stupid. There clearly isn't a consensus on whether or not the invasion of Iraq was part of the War on Terror. The debate is just both sides try to label the article part of the War on Terror (or not) to justify their own world view. I happen to be outraged by the thought that the Iraq war is part of the war on terror. I don't think wikipedia should be parroting Bush talking points. Nevertheless there are people who believe that the Iraq War is part of the War on Terror. The answer, then, is to not catagorize the article as such but include a subsection explaining the controversey. Now you all can keep yelling about this shit or we can compromise and actually complete the damn article.-- Jsn4 09:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jsn4, the effort should be in creating the article not arguing over the proper label--the general concensus in both the media and government is that the conflict in Iraq is called "the Iraq war"--reports don't call it the "battle of Iraq, part of the global fight against terror." Since everyone agrees at least with the term "Iraq war" why not leave it at that and include a section on the debate over the "war on terrorism" label. Take another example, everyone seems to have adopted the "Iraqi insurgent" term even though in previous conflicts such a group might have been labeled "Iraqi rebels"--however, everyone uses the "insurgent" term and practically no one uses the "rebel" term. It's the same with this conflict, we should use a general term that is agreed on "iraq war" and add the labeling dispute within the article. Publicus 13:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
We can all agree that it is hotly disputed whether Iraq is part of the War on Terror. Thus, any unmitigated claim that it either is, or is not, should not be a part of this article. For example, a photo caption "Part of the War on Terrorism" is just as unacceptably POV as "Not Part of the War on Terrorism" would be. Any mention of the WoT should include the fact that it is the Bush administration and their supporters who categorize the war that way. -- Hyperbole 22:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
We are confusing when popular oppinion has an effect, and when it does not. If you were to go out on the street, pull out a map of Europe, point to Germany, and ask 100 people what that nation is, most if not all will call it Germany. I doubt anyones first response would be Deutschland, unless they lived there. Just like if I went to Mexico and pointed to the USA on the map, most people would say Estados Unidos. This is a relative thing. Naming conventions at Wikipedia go with the most commonly used name. The Germany in the English Wikipedia is exactly the same as the Deutschland in the german encyclopedia. It is the same country, different name.
But lets say in this same country, the 60+ percent of the population that did not vote for Angela Merkel dispute the fact that she is infact the Prime Minister. Suppose she was unpopular, which is a slight stretch as she isnt, but its not unthinkable. If 60, 70, 90% of Germany, even 90% of the world disputed that she was the Prime Minister, even vehemently arguing against it in online enecyclopedias as this, does this impact what information we display? No, this is not the same. Facts, such as her being elected, cannot be put aside, even if 90% of the population beleives otherwise, or everyone beleives otherwise, though admittedly if everyone beleived a lie than there would be noone to say otherwise. Luckilly we are not there. In 2000, a similar occurence happened to the one I described. Many people disputed whether George W. Bush was truly the President. But he was put into office through the rules of the government, uncommonly used ones yes, but nonetheless legitimate.
I hope you can see the difference there. Popular oppinion cant change facts, and just because something is disputed does not make it POV to place.
As to the Iraqi Insurgents, this is their most common name. However, when it comes to the facts, even though most people may think they are all from Iraq, or other all from outside Iraq, we cannot go with popular oppinion. We go with facts - they are from both.
Also, is it being a parrot for J.K. Rowling when you say that Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets is part of a larger series, and that this series also includes 5 other books, with another on its way? Lets skip ahead a year or two. Lets say book 7 comes out, and everyone hates it and thinks its a terrible end to the story, even trying to say its a book all its own, not part of the previous series. As Wikipedia, what would we do? J.K. Rowling is the author, and she obviously has say in whether or not its part of the series, not her fans. Just like if you were to make a set of comics for your own enjoyment, and a reader disputes whether or not one of the comics is part of the series. Their oppinion doesnt matter, the maker of it says it is part of the series. Maybe it doesnt fit, it could be terrible, but it is still part of it. Likewise, the Iraq War as started as part of the War on Terror. Maybe you feel it doesnt fit, maybe you feel its a terrible sequel, but the maker of the series, the USA and allies, has said its a part of it, and ultimately you can do nothing about this fact.
And finally, another interesting point. Most people do not call it the "battle of Iraq, part of the global fight against terror." This is absolutely true. People do not call the Vietnam War "battle of Vietnam, part of the Cold War" either. And as such, neither article is located at these locations ( Iraq War and Vietnam War respectively.) However, both of these wars do include a "Part of" section specifically for this purpose. Most people do not call it the "Battle of the Bulge, part of World War Two," however this too includes a "Part of" section where it links to World War Two. Individual operations, for instance Operation Swarmer, also includes a "Part of" section. The "part of" section is not the title, but instead links to the wider conflict for which it belongs.
And as I just noticed another point, here is my final paragraph, I promise. Someone said that the term "war on terror" has been used in the past. This is true. However, noone is saying this is "part of a war on terror" but instead "part of The War on Terror," a specific conflict. Another example of this is the Gulf War, a term used for the Iran Iraq War, until another conflict, that in 1991, became the most common event related to that name. Specific battles in the Gulf War would say it is part of the Gulf War, and this would be correct, as the Gulf War refers to the 1991 conflict. Likewise, saying something is part of the War on Terror is saying it is part of the US led campaign that began in 2001, not previous efforts that are no longer commonly referred to as the War on Terror. Rangeley 23:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Its unfortunate that this is all you see, but I doubt much can be done to change that. However, here are a few more lines for your enjoyment.
This is as much a propaganda term as the term 'New Deal' that refers to the series of government programs run by the US Government during the Great Depression. But noone is suggesting this be deleted, or references to the New Deal in its related articles be removed. You can call this innuendo, I call it pointing out a double standard in your argument. Unless you would object to including the Tennessee Valley Authority as part of the New Deal, in which case I was mistaken in my assessment. Rangeley 01:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Here is quote Bush gave just this year. "The doctrine still stands: If you harbor a terrorist, you're equally as guilty as the terrorists who commit murder." "There's a reason why he was declared a state sponsor of terror -- because he was sponsoring terror. He had used weapons of mass destruction. And the biggest threat that this President, and future Presidents, must worry about is weapons of mass destruction getting in the hands of a terrorist network that would like to do us harm. That is the biggest threat we face. Airplanes were horrible; the attacks of aircraft were horrible. But the damage done could be multiplied if weapons of mass destruction were in the hands of these people." That's just a couple excerpts from a speech Bush gave back in January 2006. You can find it here The White House There now it is fact that OIF is a campaign of The War on Terrorism. It was part part of the decision that led to the war in Iraq. Most believe that the War on Terrorism was exclusive to just afghanistan, the Taliban, and Al Queada. Most forget the official Title as well "The Global War on Terrorism" Along the lines of what Rangely had posted earlier The Battle of the Bulge was part of WW2, as well as D-Day, The Battle for Midway, and let us not forget the day of infamy Pearl Harbor. For those who dispute this simple fact, need to far better research their opinions and statements. And at the very least provide some official sources. --Swelling20 11:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Swelling20 10May2006
First of all there is no need to prove SH was linked to 9/11 by supporting the terrorists involved or not. Second hence the official Title "The Global War on Terrorism" so yes he has declared the entire world a terrorist state. A war with no boundaries and a most determined enemy, and many ways to fight that enemy. As far as the US's use of WMD that was over 50 years ago when the Atoms fell on Japan. However this is about wether OIF is part of GWOT which it quite is a fact. --Swelling20 12:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Allright OIF is officially part of GWOT, there is NO dispute. As far as the Resolution I have read it many times. Maybe you should take this opportunity to re read it after all it does state OIF is part of GWOT. The GWOT is a result of the events on 9/11 not the start of OIF. Yes the GWOT states just that the entire world "US, China, Afghanistan, Former Soviet Union, Germany, France, England, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Antarctica, The Netherlands, Sweden, Turkey, Lebanon, and yes even Iraq plus Every Surface on the face of this great planet" is involved. Not to mean that War has been declared on each and every country or state, but terrorists and terrorist networks that may find refuge within those locales. Not meaning that war will be declared on those countries that do have terrorists in their midst. The GWOT is kind of a new war one that has never been fought before. Iraq is included in the war on terror because of SH use of terrorist tactics and supporting other terrorists in general. Not that in any way has it been stated that SH is directly linked to 9/11 by me. My only intent here is to set it straight that OIF is a Campaign of the GWOT. After all the GWOT is not just against those involved in the events of 9/11 but all terrorists, not a specific Nation or terrorist group. For OIF to not be included in the GWOT would be totally inacurate. After all we are building a source of information based on facts not opinions. OIF being part of GWOT is not my opinion it is a fact based on the resolution which you must really read more carefully. Plus numerous speeches and the official standing of the President and his administartion as well as Congress. There are now two campaigns under the GWOT OEF (Operation Enduring Freedom) and OIF.
If you actually went and resourced the facts on this subject you would also come to the same conclusion. I am kind of new to Wiki here and may not know exactly how this whole deal works. But what I do know is my facts. The GWOT is not propoganda, a political debate, nor a argument of any sort. It is a subject that has no just cause to be debated over for the purpose of a factual work such as wikipedia. I am an American and I believe every person has a right to their own opinions even about this subject. However as I stated above this source needs to be accurate in all ways. If the official standing of the US is that OIF is in support of the GWOT then it officialy is, no debate. After all GWOT is a US led Campaign same as OEF and OIF. I will not argue the details of GWOT because it is a much broader topic than I care to discuss at this time. --Swelling20 13:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Please explain your point shortly. De mortuis... 00:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, this absurd argument is being sparked by partisans that agree with one and not the other and want to separate the two. If it were indeed the U.S. fighting the WOT and the U.K. fighting in Iraq, you can argue away to your heart's delight to whether or not Iraq constitutes a fight against terrorism. But as the U.S. is the principal protagonist in both, and it is a subcampaign in U.S. military terms, the two are indelibly linked and your arguments over the merits of it won't change that link.-- Mmx1 18:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I for one know that OIF is in support of GWOT, for any who oppose: Buy some reading glasses! You have given no case for your arguments. Stop trying to make points you have obviously not thouroghly researched, or only read what you wanted to hear to support your nonexistent point. Please someone show me one source that actually states OIF is not a part of GWOT, because numerous links have been posted that actually say OIF is in support of GWOT. --Swelling20 14:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I include the CIA and the NSA are "reputable non-partisan institutions".-- Jersey Devil 17:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Repost of comment in identical poll in Iraq War Talk page: De mortuis, time and time again points against the term have been raised and have failed. You are essentially stating that regardless of this failure, you will continue to fight it without base. I will be the first to admit that it is likely that most people will vote along what they see as 'party lines' so to speak. They have not participated in discussion and have not seen how they have gone, but you prove that even when people participate they can still be ignorant to the truth. This topic is controversial, which makes it an unfortunate case in point of support of the policy Wikipedia has adopted. Arguments are weighed on their value, logicality, and and overall worth rather than the number of people who say it. I beleive that this is exactly why you have put up the War on Terror template for a "speedy deletion" and created this poll. You, and others, have lost in the attempt to put up a convincing argument, and now you have resorted to redefining the issue as one where we see how many people go to each side of a line. Its tiresome, and counterproductive. Rangeley 02:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Its interesting that you cannot see where the difference lies. The United States and Allies create Campaign A. In Campaign A, they make War with Afghanistan, and War with Iraq. This is a fact. Both of these wars are part of this campaign. I want you to dispute this, Mr Tibbs. Provide us all with information stating that the United States and its allies began the Iraq War as a seperate war, and not under the wider "Campaign A." Campaign A was named the "War on Terrorism" by those waging it. Just like the Al-Aqsa Intifada, this particular conflict has been popularly known by its assigned title, rather then names given to it by outsiders, such as the Oslo War, or American Expasionism. When a bus bombing occured in 2002, would it be a POV to say it was part of the Al-Aqsa Intifada, when those perpetrating it claim it to be? No. Simply, no. It is not POV, but instead factual. Is it somehow justifying the attack by putting it into the wider conflict? No. Simply, no. Is it somehow justifying the Iraq War by putting it into the wider conflict? No. Simply, no. Do most people call the War on Terror (ie, campaign A) American Expansionism? Nope. The Axis of Evil is a term used to describe 3 nations, not to label an existing military alliance. Further, nations military alliances are not displayed in their infoboxes. If a military alliance existed, and the popular name for it was Axis of Evil, this is where we would find it at. Just like we can find the former soviet alliances at Eastern bloc, a term they did not create, but was instead applied by western media and governments. Rangeley 21:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The government has the ability to define programs and conflicts it begins. They also have the ability to start new operations and initiatives in this conflict. Lets say you make a television series, called "The Best Damned Sports Show, Period." You make 10 episodes, all about sports teams. A few of them came out good, but the rest of the episodes sucked. By the end of the series run, most people hate it. At wikipedia, some people begin saying "Hey, its POV to say that episode is part of 'The Best Damned Sports Show, Period,' because it sucked! Saying its part of that series is blatantly POV!"
Would you agree with this person? Because thats whats going on here. Those who made the "series" or in this case campaign, named it, and started two wars under it. Whether or not your show was indeed the best damned sports show, and whether or not a war actually fought solely terrorists is beyond the point. It was begun as a part of it, and that is all that it takes for us to define it as part of it. Rangeley 21:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Wasnt the codename of the Iraqi invasion originally "Operation Freedom" and not "Operation iraqi freedom"?
No, it has never been assigned that name. Rangeley 20:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Who's rewriting history? The 2002 Senate Resolution for war on Iraq clearly states:
Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;
Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations;
Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;
Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and....
The House Resolutions and Colin Powell's statements before congress contain similar language. Terrorism was ALWAYS part of the Iraq War rationale. It is Kevin Baas and Nescio who are attempting to rewrite history by claiming it was only WMD that lead us to war. -- Mmx1 00:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
How does that effect the fact that it was stated as a part of the war on terrorism before it began? And please note that the resolution does not state that Saddam was involved in 9-11. Rangeley 03:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Some misconceptions have become part of this page.
Your main problem in your entire lengthy argument is that you are looking at the war on terrorism as an open ended term. It is not. The term applies to a specific conflict being fought by the USA and its allies. You can question the credibility of this conflict, and question whether the popular name of it accurately reflects whether it is doing what it is or not. You can even question whether the wars in this conflict are justified at all. However, this is irrelevant. Just as we link together the different parts of the Nazi "Final Solution," a program that is popularly known as the Holocaust, we must include the different parts of the US/Ally led campaign, popularly known as the War on Terror. When you include Auschwitz and Buchenwald together with Krystalnach, it is not a point of view. These different events and camps are linked together under the same nazi program. So long as this nazi program is known popularly as the holocaust, it is correct to state they are part of the holocaust. So long as this US/Ally program is known popularly as the War on Terror, it is correct to state the Iraq war is part of the War on Terror. Rangeley 16:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Usually, the
burden of proof is on those making a claim, and not on those disputing it. Therefore, we need a source supporting the suggestion that Iraq is part of the WOT. Second, Google is not a valid instrument and you fail to notice that the same Google search came up with the
BBC using quotation marks, arguably THE source of news in the world.
Nomen Nescio
01:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the opposition to the use of War on Terror in the info box (or as a category) for this article boils down to three points:
Now regarding these points, think about this:
Welcome back and I hope your weekend was good. I had sun, sea and BBQ. Anyway, several observations
ad 1 To include every action from the past 50 years seems unreasonable. Further, your logic does not onclude ties of the US government to Al Qaeda around the same time. Let alone all the other terrorist related activities by the US. If Iraq was involved in terrorism, you should say the same about the US.
ad 2 It is clear there are numerous, and notable, sources that do not share the position of the Bush administration. Contrary to your example Israel, which all notable organisations accept as state. Not a valid analogy. Second, there is no debate surrounding the WOT. The controversy is Iraq. By the governments own adminsion Iraq was invaded because of WMD and ties to 9-11. Both allegations are officially not supported by the current evidence available.
ad 3 Stating there will be an earthquake, or impeachment is saying what "might" be. To conclude that the US is already trying to make the inevitable attack on Iran part of the WOT is not a prediction. The administration already is using ties to terrorism in its statements. Which is exactly what the result would be if we adopted your logic: any conflict can now be part of the WOT.
Nomen Nescio
21:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that's a very good representation of the points that have been made. Regarding being accused of historical revisionism here: the iraq war was ostensibly a " pre-emptive strike". does anyone disagree with that? Kevin Baas talk 03:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not a political debate, or debate on the Iraq War in general, Kevin. Whether or not it is a pre-emptive strike has no bearing on whether it is part of the conflict. Rangeley 03:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
It's the USA's war as far as the world is concerned, they declared the war, so why not call it what the USA calls it? I see no problem with that. Just because you (Nomen Nescio) may personally believe the USA is "terrorist" doesn't mean it is fact. You are politically biased, and that has no place in a purely factual encyclopedia. nuff said. -Pj- 03:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Several observations
Please people, let's stay focused here. As I identified above, there are only three basic controversies regarding a category called " War on Terror" and I have listed them. above. Regarding point #1 "Ex post facto", I resolved that by providing actual information, contemporaneous to and prior to March 2003 to show that "terror" related issues were indeed being attributed Iraq. Also the 2002 Senate resolution, posted by Mmx1, additionally shows that the actions against Iraq were indeed " War on Terror" related. These points establish that Iraq invasion 2003 did indeed have a "terror" related predicate as part of the starting rationale. However, I still see that Mr. Tibbs points to news from after the March 2003 invasion date to "prove" that USA assertions about some terror links were wrong. This is not relevant because it's already been shown that at the time of the invasion there was a perceived "terror" link in Iraq and therefore, the 2003 invasion itself (which is what this article is about) is accurately stated to be part of the War on Terror. We do not de-ratify a premise by subsequent events. At the time of the invasion, the premise indeed was that Iraq was terror related. Therefore, all complaints about the terror-relation status - as seen at the time of the invasion, have been resolved. Further complaints under this point are foreclosed from reasonable doubt. This point has been proved. The next point is #2, the "Pro-USA" aspect of the term " War on Terror (actually, as posted in the article it's " War on Terrorism".) The objections raised on this point are very vexsome. On one hand, I do understand Nescio's point which is the contention that "War on Terror" is a "propaganda" term. As the previous dialog will show, I've already agreed that it is one (and answered that point - see above). Nescio also argues that USA might be rightly accused or "terror" itself, and therefore, to allow USA to brand its opponents in this conflict as "terrorists" is to adopt a USA-centric view. Suffice it to say, if USA were indeed attacking others on the basis USA has sustained confirmed attacks (eg: 1993 World Trade Center bombing, 1996 Khobar Towers bombing 2000 USS Cole, 2001 9/11) , then one might say that USA is "terrorist". Absent that, then we end up in a semantical debate about what is " terrorism". To those who make this objection, I would ask them, is the wiki page on Terrorism wrong? Also, it would seem that USA-centric or "Pro-USA" argument actually has a fall back. Not only is it being contended that "War on Terror" is pro-USA because it's a USA term, but, it's being contended that USA is "terrorist" itself, so using the term is biased and it's also being contended that for this reason, using as a category is factually false. These arguments do not hold water. It's already been established on this page via the preponderance of the evidence that the term " War on Terror" is in wide enough use and with wide enough understanding in the English speaking world as to be a benchmark. When we write the wiki, we do not claim to be writing the absolute truth. Rather, what we write is what's generally understood to be the case. Example: it's generally understood that migrants crossing the border into USA illegally are illegal immigrants. Likwise, it's generally understood that fighters who attack in certain ways are terrorists. And it's generally understood that a country (USA) which undertakes a wide scale military action can reasonably call that a "war". USA is indisputably engaged in preemptively averting and otherwise prosecuting a "war" against persons and situations which USA deems a "terrorist" threat to USA. Ergo, the rational basis of the actual-in-use-term of "War on Terror" is valid. To refuse to acknowledge that USA refers to its actions as "War on Terror" is to substitute our own opinions in place of the established facts of that term's usage. However, if indeed USA is also "terrorist" itself (I say not), then the answer here is to have an article about Terrorist activities committed by USA. Canceling the truth about one point War on Terror, does not establish the truth about another USA terror (if there is such a thing). Lastly, #3, the "Endless war" risk that USA might expand its application of the term "War on Terror", does not preclude us as editors from using it in this current context now. As per WP:NOT, the wiki is ot a crystal ball and we do not try to guess the future. Speculated future misapplications are no excuse against discussed and agreed upon applications today. I am reasonably sure that I have addressed and answered the objections to " War on Terror". Merecat 16:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Out of interest the US Medals given to soldiers who served in Iraq in 2003 were tiled "GWOT" Global War on Terror. The Australian medals were titled "ICAT" International Coalition Against Terrorism. Greynurse 13:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, the discussion got heated, it got lengthy, and it involved a great many people. But several days have passed since the weekend (which seemed to be the peak) and since than things have cooled off. I think now people are more willing to come to reasonable conclusions. The discussions have revealed the core issues and arguments. I have not seen the arguments for recognizising the Iraq War as part of the War on Terror disputed. They proved to be solid against everything thrown at them so far. I think it reasonable that we can conclude that they are therefore worthy of application in ending the edit war, which has needlessly consumed time for all of us involved.
Enough time has passed, and enough has been said. Its time to implement the conclusion. Rangeley 01:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Nope, I have chosen to look through it all and I just dont see it. I wont rule out the possibility that I missed something, simply point out to me where the arguments are refuted and we can continue discussion. However, we must remember that we are at Wikipedia, a site meant to be fast to get things right through cooperation. We cant hold things up forever just because you want to balk, call me names, question whether I have read this or that. We have done this for weeks now, and its time to put it aside. I was never going for a majority, or a supermajority here, and it is shameful that is all you were going for, Añoranza. I couldnt care less which side has the more votes, but instead have strived to be right, and get it right. I feel that since this debate began, there is a much stronger, and more developed argument for having it as part of it than against. You obviously dont know me, but I do not just go around endlessly debating something that I know I am wrong on. Especially on Wikipedia, which I have only once before debated on before this, and it was months ago. I dont just get on here and think, hey, lets waste some peoples time, including my own. I am doing this, and discussing this with you and others because I beleive the system at Wikipedia can work. It is not a system of who can get the most supporters, but rather, whichever side is right is the side that is implemented. There is no debating that the poll stands at 13-4 (one vote changed). I am not claiming the poll states otherwise. But look under those 14 votes originally against it, and look at the responses point by point. Look at the discussion under it, the discussion elsewhere, its even gone onto my talk page. The debate is over, all that can be left is obstruction by those who disagree with the outcome, but are out of arguments to defend their view. I dont think this is what Wikipedia is about, and I doubt its what you think Wikipedia is either.
So please, point out the refutations that you keep claiming I and others missed, and stop just claiming I missed them without base. If they dont exist, thats fine too, and we can get along with our lives with this learning experience behind us. Rangeley 03:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Rangeley, the fact is that although you and I have indeed proved the logical accuracy of including War on Terror as a category for "see also" in the info box, the consensus of the other editors who outnumber us on that point is against WOT in the box. Personally, I feel you should yield to the others on this. Not all editorial decisions are logical. At this point, it's an editorial decision and we have been overruled. If you want consensus to carry when it agrees with you, you have to accept it when you are in the minority also. I yield to Tibbs, et al, on this one and I ask that you do also. Merecat 05:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not beleive that this is the way Wikipedia is intended to work, and it is clearly written that wikipedia is both not a democracy, and a consensus is not merely the results of a poll. I wonder if the tables were turned, and if Añoranza, Mr. Tibbs, and Nescio had the logical, truthful argument, would they accept the idea that the opposition can win merely through having 9 more people on their side? If a movement sprung up to claim the world flat, would the 100 people pushing for that here overrule the scientifically backed oppinion if it only had several supporters? I suppose such things are an inevitability. It is a difficult job to create a quality article on a contemporary event, we were faced with this when the the Ratzinger became Pope a year ago. Determining what is important is tough enough, and when you throw in an element of controversy, like the Hitler Youth program, it doesnt make things easier. Back then people were stating it was POV to say Ratzinger was forced to join the program, even though it was mandatory to do so, among other things. As time passed, eventually the truth was seen for the truth, and if you look today you see the truth is indeed in the article. I guess it was unreasonable to expect much from this article so soon, the hype has not died down. But when it does, perhaps years from now, I have no doubt that Wikipedia will have re-evaluated the issue and determined that the truth is not in violation of NPOV, just as it did with the Pope. And when that day comes, perhaps you will regret insisting so vehemently on the conclusion you wrongly reached.
It was a good discussion. I know the truth, others know the truth, and even you guys probably know the truth too. Some day, Wikipedia will have that luxory. But I accept that this day is not today. I will not continue to push this, per Merecat's suggestion. Rangeley 19:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I am still hoping to come to resolution of this issue and hope possibly this can be it. I have seen Mr. Tibbs and Rangeley have already come to an agreement that quotation marks is a fair middle ground and non POV way of coming to a middle ground. I agree with this as the term is one that is being used in the current conflict that the Iraq War is factually part of, however the term is not used by the whole world, though it is used in The United States and the UK in legal documents. Can we come to this center ground? -- Zer0faults 17:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I never agreed to that, because it is not the standard used for any other conflict. Rangeley 19:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I am posting straight factual information as I see it relates to the usage of the term "war on terror" in relation to the conflict in Iraq. Can we please have an alternating list as according to Wikipedia:Straw polls voting is not binding. Thank You -- Zer0faults 20:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Medals given to participants of Operation Iraqi Freedom were titled "Global War on Terror Expeditiary Medal" and "Global War on Terror Service Medal." [56] [57] [58] [59] (PDF) [60]
2) The phrasing "war on terror" is used repeatedly in H.J Res 114, the resolution passed by both House and Senate authorizing the use of force in Iraq. [61] [62](PDF)
3) The US Senate voted by a majority in favor of H.J Res 114 by a vote of 77 to 23. [63]
4) The UK Parliament stated as one of reasons to goto war as Iraq's possibility of spreading WMD's to terrorists and terrorist states. [64]
5) UK Parliament voted by majority to use force in Iraq by count of 412 to 149. [65]
5) A military campaign presents what one side of the conflict does, not what both sides do. [66] [67]
6) Brief explanation of the term " operation" from Wikipedia. the term Operation Iraqi Freedom is not being debated oddly, though that is also POV if seen as a statement and not a name. Please read furthur to code name for futher understanding.
7) Military operations and campaigns are named by government officials. Desert Storm leaked to press by anonymous government official, Cold War named by Bernard Baruch while working for the United Nations Atomic Energy Commission (UNAEC) in 1947 as the United States representative. Operation Iraqi Freedom named by the US Government. [68]
8) Operations conducted under other campaigns are in fact listed as so on all other Wikipedia pages. Vietnam War part of Cold War, Battle of Kursk part of World War 2, Western Front part of World War 1, Battle of Gettysburg part of American Civil War, etc.
O removed the part of as being against consensus.
Nomen Nescio
21:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyone else see this link New_york_times#Times_self-examination_of_bias coming up incorrectly, if so please fix in article. Thank You -- Zer0faults 22:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Somewhat late, but this maybe interesting:
Nomen Nescio
Gnothi seauton
10:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a poll going on at the Iraq War article that is related to this article. You can add your vote here: [70] -- Mr. Tibbs 23:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the article needs considerable re-wording in its present form to represent the fact that the US was not the sole nation involved in the invasion. Whilst it contributed the largest portion of the invasion it still only held around 60% of the forces involved, The UK, Australia etc. holding the rest. The invasion was not planned and implemented by the US, but rather by the Coalition of the willing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.107.151.178 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 29 May 2006.
I edited the article yesterday. I made well over 50 edits and i'm still only half way through. There was one part in the middle that was so POV i had to extensivley re word it, the info was correct it was just written in such a biased way it was basically slagging off the iraqi armies response. I had to re word it to say things like "the iraqi army was unable to respond to..." to replace statements like "furthermore the iraqi army didnt even retaliate due to an entirely incompetant leadership" etc etc. Please , I'm trying hard here to make this a good article but its not easy when people are smacking their own opinions down as facts. I'd go as far as to say that really any comment that is more than common sense needs to be referenced from now on - its the only way such a current afairs article can be good quality and NPOV.
Futhermore, currently there are about 10,000 UK troops to about 133,000 US troops there. But at the time of invasion there were actually closer to around 30,000 UK troops in iraq and 100,000 US troops. So if you want to be a pedantic prick with the numbers then it was around 23% UK and 77% US. (excluding the 2% of total troops which were foreign). No one says the US made a small contribution and we all except it made the largest, but the invasion would not have been practical AT THAT TIME had the UK and other nations not been involved as the US couldnt commit enough troops. If you read the article it actually already states something similar. Now im not saying the US was incapable of it, but rather more forces from the US would have had to have gone costing more to the US and taking more time to deploy to the region. This is about making a good encylopedia and not about only representing the major party. Please... reverters.... GET OVER IT.
The NASA photo caption on this page claims that the smoke plumes are from bomb impacts, while the caption on the image's page claims the plumes are burning oil-trenches set afire by Iraqi forces as a defensive measure. By personal memory and the color of the smoke, I reckon the latter correct-- does anyone know more definitively? AlanKHG 05:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this what they mean with interesting?:
Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 02:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
For those interested, an RfC has been filed regarding User:Zer0faults at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults. Any comments would be appreciated. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I would invite all who are interested to partake in the discussion that is taking place on this page. Rangeley 14:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
You two said above
At any given time, what the president/administration says is the USA's position, is the USA position. Anyone trying to say this is not so, is wrong. Merecat 02:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed a couple of references to the former Iraqi president as "Saddam" in this article. Although this is accepted in the political world, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; we wouldn't call George Bush "George" throughout an article! (With the exception of quotes,) I think that we should change "Saddam" references to "Hussein" references, unless it's important to differentiate between Saddam and other Husseins in particular contexts. Does this sound right? T. S. Rice 08:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Please feel free to visit and comment the debate on whether Iraq was invaded to fight terrorism. [72] This is to counter the severely one-sided and biased discussion that Rangeley started. Instead of redacting out all the relevant information this RFC presents the entire case and not only what Rangeley wants you to know. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 09:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Discussion on the consensus reached is located here [73]. Rangeley 01:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Seems someone with a fairly... festive mind erased the strength of the U.S. forces in Iraq, the commanders, and replaced the result of the conflict with "Sex". I really hope that whoever was behind that is warned. John D'Adamo 18:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph from the article which states "Careful inspections after Iraq's capitulation failed to find weapons of mass destruction.[10][11]" is incorrect. The search for WMD's is still on going and there have been some discover of WMD as noted in the following published articles:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/22/060622055545.07o4imol.html
Why these findings have not been published by the "main stream" press amazes me.
And, let's not forget that the US officially stated they have not found WMD. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 15:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've marked several sections on this article that I think should be merged into Iraq War. Please go to Talk:Iraq War to discuss so we keep the discussion in one place. -- Bobblehead 02:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Funny how this article doesnt mention Bush's references to the security of Israel as an ally of the US, esp. when in context of the North Korean strife and missile launches. NK, which poses a threat to American soil, is ignored, while Saddam's SCUDs only posed a threat to Israel (Powell's fairy-tale drones aside). Anyone wanna supplement the article with this information? It is severely lacking. -Anon
The 100,000 civilian deaths was reported by Lancet in Sept. 2004. That was 18 months after occupation. It is now about 40 months after invasion so this figure cannot be accurate. 81.157.196.23 00:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Somebody had moved the entire page text to
Gulf War II and just made this a redirect, I moved it back. That's a silly name that makes it sound like a Hollywood movie, please don't move pages without clear consensus mandate from the people ;)
Sherurcij (
Speaker for the Dead)
12:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that the way that the way the deaths are quoted is quite POV against the war. Most sources quoted the figure at the time that George W. Bush used, but he is the only mentioned as quoting that number. I am not trying to suggest my feelings here about GWB or anything, but it's quite obvious that due to his public reputation, and unpopularity that many people don't consider him to be a very trustworthy source, especially since obviously it's in his interests to quote a low figure. Therefore the 30,000-40,000 figure is portrayed as a 'rogue' figure. In reality however, the opposite is true - I've personally never seen any figure anywhere for the number of deaths that anywhere close to that high except that one study called the lancet study. Even people strongly opposed to the war (eg: Michael Moore) quote a figure somewhere around 40,000 people (and recently too). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fookoyt ( talk • contribs) 23 July 2006.
According to a Harris Poll released July 21 found that 50% of U.S. respondents said they believe Iraq had the forbidden arms when U.S. troops invaded in March 2003. This was reported in numerous news articles, such as The State ( http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/15215272.htm) and The Washington Post ( http://blog.washingtonpost.com/offbeat/2006/08/do_you_believe_in_wmd.html). PJ 06:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed {{pov}} tag a few weeks ago after other editors removed some of the pov edits made by others. Obviously the topic is a heavily debated one so it is my opinion that major edits should be discussed first as the changes may present a pov. The recent edits by Garygoldstein have not been discussed and present a pov. I reverted the edits by the user and a second suspected sock puppet 69.86.126.2 of the same user. At this point, I would like the opinions of other editors on the edits made by the user before adding the pov tag or requesting the help from an admin. I have no opinion on the subject either way and have no interest in the US/IRAQ dispute so I have nothing to add from a pov. Just trying to keep all articles NPOV. I already forgot 21:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I put in this section. I somehow don't think it will last long but I believe it to be true. The truth will out eventually. It would be nice if Wiki was ahead of the game.
Why the USA invaded Iraq because Iraq was pricing oil in Euros not Dollars:- [74]
Why the USA will invade Iran - if they do - for the same reason [75]
SmokeyTheFatCat 16:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
As I suspected my addition has been deleted. Rangeley just seems to want to accept the Bush administration line without question. Shame. I had hoped for more from Wiki. SmokeyTheFatCat 19:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
So it's not 'rationale' but 'publicly given rationale' then? SmokeyTheFatCat 20:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
So it's Wiki's place just to parrot the White House line then? Imagine if Wiki existed in 1939 and was edited by Germans. What would you have said about the Nazi invasion of Poland? You should be ashamed of yourself Rangeley. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You have not answered my question. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You still haven't answered my question. I guess you're not going to. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq
A recently updated bit. [1] Perhaps someone here can better articulate this revelation. It's certainly being seen as the final nail in the coffin for the Iraq war by many. --AWF
The proper military term for a massive armed incursion is "invasion", but proper context is needed. The term Iraq War - April 2003 Invasion is the most precise, best way to title this article. 66.98.130.204 07:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
"Iraq War - April 2003 Invasion" is a pretty bad title, since... didn't the invasion begin the preceding month? -- Mr. Billion 16:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Um, if March 2003 is correct, then it's Iraq War - March 2003 Invasion. Clearly, the term "Iraq War" can be used to refer to the current or most recent war in Iraq. Prior wars can be titled 1991 Iraq War, or whatever. What's needed is a semantic consistancy in the titling of articles relating to this over-arching topic, that being, the war in Iraq. And the reasons we call it Iraq War - ___ is that people search wiki the same way they search google - a few key words. The key words here are "Iraq" and "war" 192.168.232.76 07:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I also think that Iraq War - ___ 2003 Invasion is an appropriate title. If one is looking for a specifically less inflammatory title, you can use "incursion" instead of "invasion". Tigerhawkvok 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Comments that some might have forgoten to mentioned is the words the '2003 Invasion of Iraq against the wishes of The United Nations and other countries' which someone took out from the article on John Howard and I am wondering why they done this becausen't wasn;t The UN against the invasion? 2.38am 13/2/2006
The article would be more properly titled as Operation Iraqi Freedom - 2003 Insertion. Insertion meaning the movement of troops into Iraq. As far as the term invasion it is defined as "incursion of an army for conquest or plunder" and I don't believe the US Military has plundered or made a conquest in Iraq. The term invasion is more identifiable with Hitlers control in Europe during World War II, and Saddams actions leading to Opertaion Desert Shield and Storm. After all, have we not trained and armed the New Iraq Military and help them institute a new government? Swelling20 10May2006
I think the picture of the arrested Saddam should be removed from this article, as it goes in the time of the following occupation (December 2003).-- TheFEARgod 20:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes...but the mission IS the article. Thus it should stay, right?
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
17:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm of two minds on this issue. Yes, it did happen after the invasion. But he was the leader of the country before the invasion, and went into hiding sometime during it. And he was captured by the occupying forces. I think some mention should be made of his capture, but be careful to not to parrot the Bush administrations attempt at rewriting history i.e we really went to war to catch this evil man, not his non-existant WMD's. Just a short mention and a link to the relevent article. Imroy 17:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
While it did happen after the invasion, he was the leader of the country and therefore should be included in its discussion. That's really all there is to it. Tigerhawkvok 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, it has been the policy of the US government since 1998 that the government of Iraq should be changed. It should be included as a relevant fact. It was bipartisan policy that Saddam had to go as of that year TMLutas 23:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC) never mind on the above, it was in a later section.
In pre-attack developments, I think it's relevant the 1995 revelation that Iraq had a pretty well developed bioweapon program that had been entirely missed by inspections. It's likely that this episode was a significant reason why later assurances by Blix were taken with a huge grain of salt by the US.
TMLutas 23:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The details in the first paragraph are a little incorrect. The Special Operations activities took place on 19 Mar - before the air bombardment - plenty of newspaper reports and acknowledgement of this now. Also, in fairness, we should remove reference here to just the Australian SAS as they were "but one" of the many special forces units to cross the border into Iraq on that day (TF20, UK SAS, Australian SAS, US Special Forces etc). 203.15.73.3 04:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually Special Operations units had been active in Iraq for at least 5-7 days before the invasion. Hell, I was in just a vanilla recon unit, not special operations or anything, and we were over the border 2 days before the invasion begun.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
14:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This information should be included on the page when it is unprotected.- csloat 21:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
If you're including that information, make sure he's properly titled as LTG William Odom (U.S. Army, Ret.), or the less official Lt. Gen. (Ret.) William Odom.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
06:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I seriously doubt Antarctic scientists got out of their research stations and proceeded to protest in the bitterly freezing temperatures. But if they participated from within their complexes, well, then I suppose the statement is accurate. However, I doubt this is the case--though I am unsure--and recommend that it be said that protests took place on all "inhabited continents" or the like. -- Marsbound2024 01:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Admins please add the template I added on Gulf War and Iran-Iraq War articles. Thank you.-- TheFEARgod 17:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It confuses me that Americans are pissed off that France won't join in this war and use the excuse of 'we sacrificed our soldiers on your beaches in ww2.' France sacrificed its navy and its treasury during the AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE WAR in order to save America. So both of your nations are equal I'd say.
France was only interested in fighting in the American War of Independence as an excuse to fight Great Britain and to hopefully end Britain's attempt to create an Empire and to hopefully clear the way for a dominant French Empire.
I am not american myself, but the impression seems to be that France is the only country thats being criticized by the americans on this issue. most likely because they were the first to wield the veto card. "freedom fries" anyone?
Perhaps the World would prefer America to return to its Isolationist policy from between the end of the First World War to Pearl Harbour. Perhaps the World would also like the consequences America's refusal to get involved in foreign affairs during this time had upon the World and what ultimately happened because of it. After all September 11th was the Pearl Harbour of the 21st century. America doesn't ask for war, it's thrust upon it.
Perhaps you should educate yourself in why the United States did what it had to protect Freedom and Democracy. The United States did what it did in those cases you states above under the idea that all peoples around the World should be entitled to Democracy regardless of what dictators, communists, or terrorists may want instead. Would you have prefered the United States not to have done what was needed to protect Freedom and Democracy and for the World to now be dominated by dictatorships and communist regimes with terrorist attacks being used over and over in an attempt to destroy those who seek Freedom and Democracy. But I doubt you would be able to excercise your Freedom of Speech in the way you have in this desired future of the World you hold. Perhaps next time you should list the things dictators, communists, and terrorist have done and just how many millions they have killed such as how many millions dictators such as Stalin killed and how many millions died in their revolutions such as the Chinese Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. Also perhaps you would like to explain to the Billions of People around the World today who would give anything to have the United States bring them Freedom and Democracy from whatever oppresions they may be suffering why it is you think they should be denied this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.187.55.154 ( talk • contribs).
It's not just American soldiers that want to get out of Iraq, most other nation's troops want to go home as well. It's not because they are cowards, but that as far as they see it, they have done what they set out to do. They were told that they were going to Iraq to remove Sadaam Hussein and find his WMDs. They have removed Saddam Hussein, and there are no WMDs. So now the soldiers feel betrayed and that their opions and needs have been forgotten. I'm sure that they are very pleased to see George 'Dub-Ya' Bush and Tony Blair saying that everthing's great, when in fact the situation is getting worse by the day. Brit in Manchester, England. 'Mission Accomplished'? Bollucks.
New polling information should be incorporated into the article, but I'm not sure where?
Source: [3]-- csloat 18:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Why should this poll be any different than the thousands of others that have been taken over the last few years? Should everyone of them be included? When did polls become encyclopedic? It doesn't matter if Soldiers and Marines want to be there or not they will go where they are told and they will accomplish the mission assigned to them. As they have always done. Opinions are not encyclopedic. Ask yourself if 5 years from now this poll will mean anything and will it be relevant in this article? -- Looper5920 12:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me be the one to say that just because you were there does not mean that your opinion is more right than anyone else that was not there.-- Looper5920 13:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a talk page and not the actual article - POV is expected - its how consensus is reached ie. several people sharing a POV. He/she is quite right to put forward their opinion on the research. Your vague argument about NOR would only be valid if the opinion was placed in the article. BTW csloat is as anonymous as 203.15.73.3 - you simply have an anon registration. Me thinks you simply didn't like his/her POV. BTW I agree the poll should be included but only on the post invasion article. Like it or not there were different phases. Australian Forces for example had Operation Falconer for the invasion (lots of offensive ground and air forces) and now for post invasion it is Operation Catalyst [6] (about defensive role - protecting Japanese reconstruction engineers). Krait 07:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I added terrorism and sectarian violence to the section about what resulted from the war but someone removed it. Why? Especially the latter article should be noted here given that it is kind of the continuation of the violence in Iraq that started with the invasion. Nameme 03:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think this section is lacking NPOV? There was propoganda on both sides I believe. Krait 09:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
This photo won the world press award: [7] Any chance to get it? Or similar ones? Nameme 14:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Please take a look at the talk page of Iraq war in order to see a translation of the featured Arabic version of this article. Thanks to Eagle a m n! AlIAS 21:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC) TwoThirty notes the following on his talk page: The important differences between the Arabic article and the English article are:
I think this article is lacking in some good information in several areas (see above comment and arabic language article). In addition there seems to be some 'unqualified' statements, such as "Post-invasion Iraq is plagued by violence caused from a mostly Sunni Muslim insurgency, and by terrorism of the Al-Qaeda militant network.". This statement, for example, could use some npov phrases like 'is alledgedly caused by' and etc. Sicarii 22:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
As I'm arabian , I can say that the article mostly are acceptable and neutral ... but it really lacks what mentioned above about the previous debate about the legality of the War ... considering the Oil as the important reason of this war is frequently mentioned not only by arab journalists but also by european ... if u return to the logos carried by European Protests b4 the war , you can find many statments like : No War for the Oil . --
Chaos
10:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that this paragraph is POV:
I think it is POV to say who "caused" the violence. The violence is identified as an insurgency. In order for there to be an insurgency, there has to be someone they are plotting an insurgency against. Who are they plotting an insurgency against? And why are they plotting it? And wouldn't it be fair to say, then, that the invading group is partly responsible for the violence caused by their Sunni's attempted insurgency against them? Shouldn't it read something like, "Post-invasion Iraq is plagued by violence as a result of a continued power struggle between the Sunni Muslims and the US and US appointed Iraqi government"? Andrew Parodi 05:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I's not a civil war in the Western sense. Extremist Muslims have for many years, in many locations around the world, been hostile and violent to each other between sects. The fratricide among Muslims in Iraq right now, is part sect-driven but this in-fighting is also being driven by insurgents who wish to fan the flames of discord and chaos. The situation in Iraq is more complex than what you say. Merecat 03:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
In the preamble we read "... mostly Sunni Muslim insurgency." I do not see any source referenced about this claim and generally consider such one without being backed by facts as POV. If it was me, I would put the insurgency facts in a section and mention just the insurgency, leaving the reader to make up his/her mind. Of course, the selection and ordering of the facts in the section also should conform the NPOV. -- Goldie (tell me) 07:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no single side being "good guys" and the other being the "bad guys". The Shia-dominated "police" is also responsible for the violence and harsh treatment [8] [9]. It is never that simple, and blaming someone is a blatant POV. -- Goldie (tell me) 18:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Any further reason why this article is tagged NPOV? I am more then willing to do any needed research to quickly remove this tag. What was the original complaints for this, the line stated above seems to be long gone. -- Zer0faults 23:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm just starting to slog my way through this and only had to go to sentence 5 and 6 to find something that is an NPOV problem. The sixth sentence "Bush repeatedly asserted that these weapons posed a grave and imminent threat to the United States and its allies. [2][3]" is especially egregious because the external links contradict instead of reinforcing the point. Neither speech uses the word imminent and the 2nd is quite clear that the danger was gathering and that we should act prior to it becoming imminent because of the uncertainty factor of all intelligence assessments. The actual term favored by the administration was "gathering" not imminent and we shouldn't be stuffing words in their mouths. That's the very essence of NPOV. TMLutas 23:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The first was written before Saddam failed to comply with the Resolution and before France said they would not vote for further resolutions, violating the terms of the Resolution itself. Also the UN failed to meet after 30 days as well. Your second link from truthout.org, a historically bias site, doesnt even talk about the Iraq War and instead is a article about Bush and war crimes, the 3rd article has at its heading "The Constitution in Crisis; The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Coverups in the Iraq War" Do I have to really comment on its bias? Its also not a document related to the discussion as it attempts to say Bush should be put on trial for various US crimes and war crimes etc. So you gave me one article written after the passing of one resolution but before its time ran out, and two things about Bush being tried for war crimes. I would reccomend you find better sources as obviously bias organizations as sources may be seen as POV pushing instead of factual representation of information. -- Zer0faults 15:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the second was not what I intended. The actual article I have to look for. As to the 2 others, they both discuss the legality of the invasion. I fail to see why the date makes any difference in analyzing. The first article discusses clearly the arguments you advance, and it clearly dismisses them as incorrect.
Nomen Nescio
Gnothi seauton
15:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The legality of the war was discussed.
Nomen Nescio
Gnothi seauton
15:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag was added but no mention was made as to why the user thought the article was POV. After reading the article, the scales seem to sway from side to side but no one side is heavier than the other. I looked into the reverts over the "war on terror" issue and it seems the argument is more of an issue of facts and misunderstanding than a issue of POV. The user fighting to censor the wording from the article seemed to have a strong biasness about not having the war on terror wording included in the article by going to extremes of using a sock puppet. The users who voted to leave the "war on terrorism" info on the page make very logical but simple arguments.
For example: Mmx1's states, "The 'War on Terrorism' was launched by the United States, and claims the War on Iraq is a part of it. Regardless of your opinions on the matter, it doesn't change the fact that the main protagonist in the war considers it a campaign of the 'War on Terror'." The statement is a very simple fact that the United States political heads consider it part of the "war on terror" [13]campaign and wikipedians do not decide if the US is wrong in doing so. No other implications are made and is a completely NPOV.
On the other hand, a rebuttal by user Hermitage states: "This is a weak argument. Every war has at least two sides. In this case, one side is the US and its allies (UK, South Korea, etc.), and the other side is a guerilla insurgency. First of all, I'm not even sure that all of the coalition partners would agree..."
Without the need to go any further, it is obvious that Hermitage has POV as the user is going straight into a counter strike without completely understanding Mmx1 statement, showing editing with emotion and a refusal to open his/her mind to the discussion. Hermitage missed the fact that Mmx1 is basically stating that an entity started a campaign and then performed the work in the name of that campaign and that’s it. If the table was turned, the result would be the same. An entity (Iraq) started a campaign (war on world domination) and then attacked a country (USA). Iraq's campaign would be "called war on world domination" and the attack on the USA would have been part of the campaign. The rest of the ensuing arguments are reiterations of the above statements with the NPOV editors trying in vain to show they do not have POV.
Considering the overall magnitude of the event and the huge amount of biased emotions on both sides of the war/invasion, this article is going to be tagged as POV constantly. As of right now, however, the article seems evenly balanced. Some of the facts and statements may need citing (or removed if sources cant be found), but that doesn’t make it POV, it only means more research needs to be done by NPOV editors and changed accordingly. I'm going to remove the tag since no argument as been issued as to why it was originally added and because sources have been provided linking the use of the words to describe a campaign called "war on terror" with the Iraq invasion. I already forgot 14:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.asp?id=11552
Should this be mentionned? According to this article, Turkey invaded iraq early in the invasion to prevent a stream of kurds fleeing north iraq.
Evilbu 23:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.geocities.com/Iraqinfo/sanctions/sarticles4/slow.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2874635.stm
Those are some of my sources. I understand if you relocate it but it should be included. Evilbu 12:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Given the Kurdish problem lasting decades, and the unrejectable fact that Turkey did invaded the Iraqi soil both before and during the war, I cannot understand the rationale not to mention Turkey's involvement. Logistical assustance is one thing, troops counting tens of thousands is another one. It was actually a second front on land (and was not that late as the Normandy one). -- Goldie (tell me) 07:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Well i think it shouldn't be mentioned unless more sources are found regarding the subject. Because I found the article quite inaccurate since America wanted Turkey to "enter" the war. I found a sentence that contradicts this fact.
The following information is related to parts of the article, but I am not sure if it fits here: Insurgencies, frequent terrorist attacks and sectarian violence lead to harsh criticism of US Iraq policy. [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]. After the Al Askari shrine bombing in February 2006 the US ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad warned that sectarian violence spread might lead to a civil war in post-invasion Iraq and possibly even the neighbouring countries. [19] De mortuis... 02:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed an article at 2003 invasion of Iraq/temp, which I presume is a stalled attempt to rewrite this page. It's not been touched for a month and a half. If it's not going anywhere, could someone familiar with the page merge it in and redirect, or flag it for deletion? Thanks. Shimgray | talk | 19:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see what the opposition is to mentioning failure of cooperation as a causus belli. It was a major part of the pre-war debate. You want the speeches, [20] May 18,
{Since then, the world has engaged in 12 years of diplomacy. We have passed more than a dozen resolutions in the United Nations Security Council. We have sent hundreds of weapons inspectors to oversee the disarmament of Iraq. Our good faith has not been returned.
The Iraqi regime has used diplomacy as a ploy to gain time and advantage. It has uniformly defied Security Council resolutions demanding full disarmament. Over the years, U.N. weapon inspectors have been threatened by Iraqi officials, electronically bugged, and systematically deceived. Peaceful efforts to disarm the Iraqi regime have failed again and again -- because we are not dealing with peaceful men. }
France, Russia and Germany, hoping to derail the war, begged Iraq to comply with inspectors: [ [21]]
They weren't begging him to give up drones, but they were begging him to cooperate with inspectors, indicating they felt that step would remove impetus for the war.
-- Mmx1 22:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq's neighbors and against Iraq's people.
He even goes on to admit that he has failed to receive international support:
"Today, no nation can possibly claim that Iraq has disarmed. And it will not disarm so long as Saddam Hussein holds power. For the last four-and-a-half months, the United States and our allies have worked within the Security Council to enforce that Council's long-standing demands. Yet, some permanent members of the Security Council have publicly announced they will veto any resolution that compels the disarmament of Iraq. These governments share our assessment of the danger, but not our resolve to meet it. Many nations, however, do have the resolve and fortitude to act against this threat to peace, and a broad coalition is now gathering to enforce the just demands of the world. The United Nations Security Council has not lived up to its responsibilities, so we will rise to ours." [26]
However, earlier on in the Iraq disarmament crisis on September 12, 2002 Bush Did state "cooperation" as a push to action:
"In 1991, Iraq promised U.N. inspectors immediate and unrestricted access to verify Iraq's commitment to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles. Iraq broke this promise, spending seven years deceiving, evading, and harassing U.N. inspectors before ceasing cooperation entirely. Just months after the 1991 cease-fire, the Security Council twice renewed its demand that the Iraqi regime cooperate fully with inspectors, condemning Iraq's serious violations of its obligations. The Security Council again renewed that demand in 1994, and twice more in 1996, deploring Iraq's clear violations of its obligations. The Security Council renewed its demand three more times in 1997, citing flagrant violations; and three more times in 1998, calling Iraq's behavior totally unacceptable. And in 1999, the demand was renewed yet again.
As we meet today, it's been almost four years since the last U.N. inspectors set foot in Iraq, four years for the Iraqi regime to plan, and to build, and to test behind the cloak of secrecy.
We know that Saddam Hussein pursued weapons of mass murder even when inspectors were in his country. Are we to assume that he stopped when they left? The history, the logic, and the facts lead to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence. To assume this regime's good faith is to bet the lives of millions and the peace of the world in a reckless gamble. And this is a risk we must not take." [27]
On October 7, 2002 he even goes so far as to explain what he means by cooperation:
"Clearly, to actually work, any new inspections, sanctions or enforcement mechanisms will have to be very different. America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Among those requirements: the Iraqi regime must reveal and destroy, under U.N. supervision, all existing weapons of mass destruction. To ensure that we learn the truth, the regime must allow witnesses to its illegal activities to be interviewed outside the country -- and these witnesses must be free to bring their families with them so they all beyond the reach of Saddam Hussein's terror and murder. And inspectors must have access to any site, at any time, without pre-clearance, without delay, without exceptions." [28]
And exactly what Bush demanded, Bush got: Iraq cooperated with the inspections, and Blix said that, and Bush never contested it. This is why Bush drops all the talk about cooperation and instead switches to deception and further pumps up the supposed WMD threat. See the difference between Bush talking about the possibility of Iraq having WMDs in his September 12 speech and then talking about the Certainty of Iraq possessing WMDs in his March speeches. Iraq met Bush's demands regarding cooperation so Bush made more demands and then just flat out said the inspectors were duped. And thats why saying "cooperation" as a casus belli is weasely. -- Mr. Tibbs 07:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
this article is middle-school quality, it focuses almost entirely on past issues, somewhat connected to the followup to the invasion. someone should redo the article and actually discuss the invasion of iraq and its aftermath.apparently there was not an actual shooting war, just diatribes lobbed back and forth at the un general assembly and silly council. {unsigned|68.1.44.149}
I agree it needs more coverage of the war itself, but calling it middle school quality is hyperbole. The pre-war debate was easy to source and a HOT topic of POV debate, hence the attention. Now that we have emerging journalistic sources, the combat phase should be updated.
--
Mmx1
04:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is impossible to write at this moment in time. Until jingoists are laughed out of all intellectual mediums there will be rabid backlash.
The Wiktionary article 2003 Invasion of Iraq is likely to be deleted shortly, and I do not know where (or if) you folks over here want these translations, but rather than lose them I am passing them over to you to do with as you please.
(all translations by User:Tedius Zanarukando) - TheDaveRoss 23:05, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
At any given time, what the president/administration says is the USA's position, is the USA position. Anyone trying to say this is not so, is wrong. Merecat 02:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
"That the Bush Administration had little or no tangible evidence of a threat."
Where is the source on this, or any information that can be found reguarding this issue? I think there should be more information expanded on why there was no tangible evidence of a threat. As far as I can tell, it is pretty empty. Although
Iraq_War-_Rationale Does talk about how there were no links to Al-Qaeda, if thats what was being refered to.
KungPaoChicken
07:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone really,i mean REALLY EVER believe that Bush is giving one bit of thought to WMDs?A reminder:Petroleum prices are 500% in IRAQ now.Even Republicans should be knowing it.for honesty's sake,admit it.Please.-- CAN T 20:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Can we get some discussion on the proper extent of the intro? -- Mmx1 03:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I totally disagee. This is a politically charged topic. I'd just as soon put "The Iraqis are now freer than they have ever been" at the end of the intro, but that doesn't belong there either. This is not about the war, it's about the 2003 invasion. The logical ending point of the invasion was the capture of Saddam. Merecat 20:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
There are two separate parts to the removed sections. The lack of WMD is not a result of the war but a questioning of the rationale and belongs in the body. The ongoing sectarian violence I can see going either way. -- Mmx1 20:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The intro currently ends on too negative of a tone. The fact that freedom is increasing and democratic elections have been held, must be mentioned. Also, "plagued by" is too POV. Neutral wording must be used. Merecat 13:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
My assessment that freedom has increased in Iraq post Saddam, is not unique to me. Merecat 16:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The Yellowcake Connection Merecat 00:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Let's get some other heads on this. Hermitage has been removing the "partof: War on Terrorism" from this and the Iraq War article. The "War on Terrorism" was launched by the United States, and claims the War on Iraq is a part of it. Regardless of your opinions on the matter, it doesn't change the fact that the main protagonist in the war considers it a campaign of the "War on Terror." -- Mmx1 02:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
And the fact that terrorists are most definately being fought against now makes this an absolute part of the War on Terrorism. Rangeley 02:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Since Iraq had no connection to terrorism prior to this invasion, it is highly inappropriate to adopt the
talking points of this administration. We know there was no link to terrorism, we know there were no WMD (the official position of the administration) so on what grounds is this part of the war on terror, except as form of manipulating public opninion through a form of
doublespeak/
newspeak? No factual basis exists for using this
misnomer, only political arguments are advanced. By that same token the
invasion of Iran is part of the war on terrorism. Iran supports
Hezbollah, Iran is about to share technology with terrorists (where have we heard this before?) so as part of fighting terrorism the US has to invade Iran.
Nomen Nescio
09:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I strongly reject the positions being advanced by Nescio. This category is indeed one that applies to this article. Any sugestion to the contrary is not supportable. Merecat 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Nescio, whether we as editors accept something as true, is not what gives it currency with the public. This usage definately falls within the framework of the usage of the term. Stop making fights all the time. You keep pushing a two part POV of a) there is no "war on terror" and b) USA is legally "wrong" for taking military action. Please stop it. It's like listening to a broken record. Merecat 15:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
According to National Review Online "Iraq Is the War on Terror" Merecat 19:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
"Sixteen Words, Again" Merecat 19:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
You misinterpret my words.
Give it a rest Nescio, the truth is piling up and it does not support your anti-USA world view on this topic:
"As journalists, scholars, and analysts pore over more of the intelligence haul seized when U.S. forces toppled the Iraqi regime, the case for removing an America-hating terror-monger responsible for the brutal torture and murder of — literally — tens of thousands of people looks better and better." [29]
Merecat 20:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Iraq had ties to terror, this has been proven. Saddam gave monetary support to families of suicide bombers as incentive, as just one instance. What you are thinking of is ties to Al Qaeda, which are debatable. Saddam supported terrorism, but regardless of this, a given reason was to fight terror, and further, terrorists are being fought today. It is an interesting POV to say its not part of the War on Terror, but it is as logical as someone who is opposed to the Vietnam war to say it wasnt part of the Cold War. Rangeley 20:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This is what a self-fulfilling prophecy looks like.
[30] Again it is the cause of terrorism, not fighting it.
Nomen Nescio
12:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, your argument here, though perhaps well reasoned, is original research. Public history of that term supports it as a category for this article. You can argue against that all you want, but it won't fly. Merecat 17:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Saddam, being deposed, is not moving the public debate anymore. However, this category is not exclusive. If you can cite another legitimate one, we can also include that. Merecat 05:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
To say that the Iraq war is "part of the war on terror" is definitely a POV statement. It's a matter of opinion that can't be proven or verified. Thus, it has no place in an encyclopedia caption. Better would be to put a section about that in the article body. Something like "...The Bush administration and its supporters claim that the invasion of Iraq is a part of a larger "war on terror". However, critics contend that..." To put it in a caption implies that it is universally true, when in fact it is quite debatable. Don't state controversial premises as fact in captions. -- Hermitage 08:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Amen, Hermitage. I second that. Definitely POV, and if anything it should go into the body of the article as a "claim" by the Bush administration.
Just because there are terrorist acts going on means nothing - by that rationale, any war fought my the US could BECOME part of the war on terror, and we could invade any country, detroy its military, and when its people in desperation turn to terrorist acts, we declare that we are fighting the "war on terror" there - and voila, the war is now legitimate, even if it wasn't at the start. Very clever, but it has no place in a wikipedia caption.
-- Borisknezevic 10:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, Hermitage and Boris, but NPOV does not mean the truth has to be abandoned when someone disagrees. For instance, some people still beleive the world is flat. But they are wrong, and we do not need to accomodate their oppinion in the Earth article. The idea that the world is round fits all criteria of a fact. It has been proven through experiments, it has been proven through flight, and finally through space. These are the applicable criteria for that case.
Now, wars are admittedly different. You cannot do a scientific test, however a criteria exists for determining what the war is a part of. Each war is different. In order for something to be considered part of World War Two, a key criteria is that it is fought between the Axis, and Allied powers. The Cold War is quite similar. In order for conflicts to be considered part of the Cold War, the combattants had to be US/Capitalist alligned vs Soviet/Communist alligned. Through this, such conflicts as the Vietnam War, Korean War, and various other minor conflicts are considered part of the Cold War even though the two Super Powers never faced each other directly. The Cold War was filled with proxy wars, and these proxy wars are considered part of the cold war.
The War on Terror is not much different. The criteria for the war on terror must be understood. It has been said both "The War on Terror begins with Al Qaeda, but does not end there." And that any regime supporting terror is considered the same as the terrorists themselves. Perhaps the name has confused you, but it is no more an endorsement of the conflict than calling the Cold war the Cold war is. The War on Terror happens to be the name of this conflict. If you consider every part of the War on Terror worth fighting, than you are absolutely ok to feel that way. If you feel that not every part of the War on Terror is worth fighting, you are absolutely ok to feel that way. If you feel no part of the War on Terror is worth fighting, you are absolutely ok to feel that way. But just like with the vietnam war - despite it not having support its still part of the Cold War - your oppinion on this part of the War on Terror holds no bearing on whether or not we can name it correctly.
There is no legitimate reason to not have the name displayed, only political views that are not welcome. It would be POV for someone to put up "The most vital part of the War on Terror" and it would be POV to put up "Allegedly part of the War on Terror." And it is definately POV to make an exception for this war, while the standard set by other war articles is quite clear. Do not respond with a debate against the justifications for war, or anything political, because whether or not the Iraq War is legal, justified, or necessary has as much effect on its naming as it did with the Vietnam War - None. Rangeley 15:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
There's something crucial you are missing. It is precisely the fact that the war on terror as you define it has nothing to do with Al Qaeda or any particular organization, or goes well beyond as you put it. Thus it is nothing like the Cold War, or the Korean war, or any other such war between two discernible sides. Phrased the way you see it, it is a purely one-sided phenomenon - a mantra of rhetoric invoked for political convenience when fighting ANY conflict. Or a war on an inanimate object - such as drugs, for that matter. That is a much better comparison, by the way - for the war on drugs, like the 'war on terror' in your formulation, is pure rhetoric. Anyone who deals drugs is the enemy. Anyone who deals in terrorism is the enemy. Thus political violence - i.e. terrorism - in that iteration is never legitimate, even if done as a form of resistance to injustice, occupation, apartheid, racism, oppression, etc. Mind you, some of the US's key allies in the so-called war on terrorism are oppressive, undemocratic, militaristic regimes such as Pakistan. Interesting, huh?
But even the Bush administration I have to say would not take the view you have of it. Perhaps you should take a look at the Wikipedia article on War on Terrorism. Terms that stand out:
"international terrorism"
'"state-sponsored terrorism"
'"global" struggle against violent extremism"
The insurgency in Iraq as we all seem to agree is complex, but to the extent that it is a local movement of resistance to the occupation, it is neither international, state-sponsored, nor global, nor for that matter 'extremist' - but nevertheless terrorist through and through. Got it?
It would be one thing to state in the body of the article that the Bush Administration claimed Iraq had links to terrorism and that it is part of the war on terror, etc. But by putting it in the caption box, Wikipedia is endorsing the rhetoric. By the same token, the US could invade any country in the world as part of the War on Drugs - which could literally be ANY country if you think about it, just as any country would give rise to terrorist resistance if occupied - and legitimtize the occupation on Wikipedia by putting it in the "War on Drugs" box.
-- Borisknezevic 00:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Well guess what Nescio, I am not Bush and I am not USA gov., so I am not the "You" in your reply. And you know what, if the USA formally declared military action against ETA and called it part of the War on Terror it would be. Same with Iran. Unfortunately for you Nescio, this is called "driving the debate" and the USA is doing just that with this naming convention. Whether you agree with the USA on this point or not, that is what's happening and no amount of denying that will change the underlying fact, which is: A large military power does indeed set the vernacular for those conflicts it engages in. It might not be just, but it is what occurs. Please stop fighting the obvious. Wikipeida does not promote or unpromote anything. You are seeking "unpromotion" of this fact and that's POV. Please stop. Merecat 19:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
De mortuis..., do you even know anything about history? For example, in the USA, the term The Civil War is well known and well understood. However, there are a sufficent number of loons out there who refuse to refer to it by anything other than The War between the states. For that reason, there exists a redirect to guide them to American Civil War. Frankly, you are doing the exact same thing: You are hypothicating against the validity of the term War on Terror from an irrational perspective. Of course the name is propaganda. So were the terms New Deal and War on Poverty. Are you going to tell me that the National Industrial Recovery Act was not part of the "New Deal" simply because those terms were "propaganda"? Stop being so obtuse. This line of dead-end argumentation is beginning to grate on me. Please stop. And before you again leap in with wrong arguments, what about the term Iron Curtain? The West invented it, the West used it and certainly the Russians did not like it. But no one in their right mind would say it's not viable terminology. Merecat 22:28, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
No, you have confused the issues. What merecat was just talking about is the validity of the term, War on Terror, for the purposes of naming the conflict. While some disagree with it, it is nonetheless (currently) the most widely accepted name in the English language for this term. Just like we call the Vietnam War the Vietnam War, despite other languages (notably Vietnamese, who call it the American War) not necessarilly calling it the same. This is the English encyclopedia, and we use english names here. For instance, the article about the nation of Germany is located at the english name at the country, not the name they call themselves. As most people in the English language call it Germany rather than Deutschland, the article is named accordingly. Likewise, most people call it the War on Terror in the English language, and it is named thusly. But whether or not you rename the conflict the War Against Militant Islam, or the War Waged by Neocons, the Iraq War and subsequently this article will be part of it as it fits the criteria of this war. Rangeley 01:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
You make a very good observation: "if the 2003 Invasion of Iraq is not part of the War on Terror, then what's it part of?" To answer that question, it would make it a war of aggression, and thereby a war crime. Sufficient reason to propose the adoption of euphemistic language.
As to the war on terror. Since terrorism is a catch-all phrase, it opens up the possibility that every intervention can be seen as part of the war on terrorism. Members of this administration have admitted that in the hypothetical situation that a granny in Switserland gives money to a organisation helping refugees can become a terrorist suspect. The rationale is that when the organisation is said to be helping terrorism, anybody helping that organisation is considered a terrorist. Even if this old lady is unaware of all this and is not in anyway willing to support terrorism she still is seen as a terrorist. And invading Switserland to arrest her becomes part of the war on terrorism, as it was in the case of OBL and Afghanistan. Further, since terrorism is present in many countries (although not AQ related, but mostly local groups) this now means that if the US were to invade these countries (again, even if there is no AQ link) the mentioning of the word terrorism would by your logic mean that that too is part of the war on terror. This effectively means that anything the Bush administration considers terrorism (which is alot) ipso facto becomes part of this war, claiming no limit (in time or location) to this war. It is not part of Wikipedia policy to promote political manipulation.
Nomen Nescio
13:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for supporting the view that certain parts of this war on terror are amoral. However, morality is not what I am talking about. The USA cannot unilateraly determine what exactly constitutes terrorism and thereby what is part of this war. What is amoral is the fact that this is exactly what the Bush administration is advocating. Furthermore, the war on terrorism is a US invention, which means that it is not mandatory for other countries to adopt the applied definition. Clearly, by using the US administration's stance this is not a NPOV statement. Many countries disagree with what the US considers terrorism. Even worse, by the administration's definition, victims of terrorism are defined as terrorists.
Nomen Nescio
15:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Since I do not deny the existence of this war I fail to see your point. But suffice it to say that many non-American media do not use the US based definition. Which was my point.
Nomen Nescio
15:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, you guys just don't quit do you? There was never any chance that Iraq was going to succeed in delivering WMD via conventional means to USA. That leaves only unconventional risks, ie; "terror" usage type risks regarding WMD's from Iraq. Your logic of "WMD = Not Terror" holds no water. Indeed, USA went to Iraq due to the risk that Iraq might strike at USA with WMD. Whether those fears were founded or not, USA did indeed lump Iraq into the War on Terror pot. You may argue that this was unjustly done, but it was done none the less. USA's current assertion of might against unconventional threats is called the War on Terror both by the USA and in much of the English speaking world. Whether this stems from there having been "ameri-centric" influence driving the adoption of that term in the public forum or not, is irrelevant to the fact that the the term has been adopted and if interpreted on the basis it was introduced (and is being used) in the English vernacular, it's use as a category here is correct. Merecat 17:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
De mortuis..., when editors ignore even the most basic facts of history, then such questions will arise. However, I can always agree that politeness is best, so sorry that I offended you. Having said that, Chomsky is about as unreliable of a source as you could possible cite, and for that reason, I don't give a rat's you know what, about what he says. Polling Chomsky about USA national security related topics, is like polling the KKK about the NAACP. Noam Chomsky is a committed anti-USA zealot. That you would even cite him is very revealing as to where you think the "center" on this issue is. As for the cite from the Guardian, here is how the sentence reads From this it seems that the so-called "war on terrorism" is being used largely as bogus cover for achieving wider US strategic geopolitical objectives. Your citing of the Guardian story supports my analysis here in that a) the term is acknowledged, even overseas, as being extant and in use by USA and b) there is resentment against the USA for pursuing it's interests. The very fact that the Guardian wrote an article denouncing the War on Terror as a "bogus cover", proves that the USA is using that term - if only for a cover. The debate here has not been whether the term War on Terror is a valid term from the perspective of outsiders from USA accepting USA motives and actions. Rather the debate here has been about whether or not the term War on Terror is in use, has it been used to describe USA actions and should we allow a category called War on Terror to be attached to this article. As far as I am concerned, the Guardian story settles the debate about semantics; the term War on Terror is in use and it does refer to USA actions grouped under that title. Now, because the opposition to a category called War on Terror (said opposition based on arguments of 'no actual usage') has been answered, I see no other complaints on this topic. The category War on Terror is valid. Also, see links here:
Additional links which affirm usage of term "War on Terror"
These four links are the top 4 which Google returns for "War on Terror". Please note that the 1st is USA military, the second is BBC in the UK, the third is Washington Post and the 4th is Amnesty International USA. Each and every on of these sites make clear that the term is extant and in use in the English speaking world. We are writing the English wiki. The only objection which had any merit was Kevin Baas regarding WMD was the Casus Belli and his inference that such a rationale predated "terrorist" concerns with Iraq. Of course, I did (see above) show Kevin's premise on that to be false. At this point, all objections have been answered. Unless something new comes up, I fail to see what objections are left regarding a category called "War on Terror". Merecat 23:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Straight off Amnesty Internationals page on the War on Terror: "For over three years Amnesty International has reported allegations of torture, ill-treatment and deaths of those held in US custody in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantánamo, and elsewhere. Join Amnesty International USA’s special initiative Denounce Torture: Stop It Now!" They dont have a seperate page for the Iraq War, its included in the conflict known as the War on Terror. Rangeley 01:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
What the government calls something does not always stick. If its catchy, it tends to. Most people call the Iraq War the Iraq War, though the government called it Operation Iraqi Freedom. Even from the get go most people called it the Iraq War. The War on Terror, on the other hand, proved catchy enough to remain the most popular english name for it. Some put it in quotes, others do not. But the fact is, if you asked most people what they called it, it would be this. If the government named it the War to bring peace, who knows if it would have caught on, I for one am glad we dont need to deal with that one. But yea, I already adressed this at the bottom of the page, so check there too. Rangeley 01:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Nescio immediately above you said this: "Nobody denies there is a war on terror, it is disputed whether Iraq is part of that". But, in your same posting, you go right on ahead and post a quote from commondreams which says Despite the trillions being spent worldwide to combat terrorism, there is no war on terrorism. This bears repeating: There is no "war on terror." [38] Nescio, I am not going to discuss this with you anymore. You are so inconsistant in your logic and assertions that I can only conclude you have no interest is resolving disagreements. Merecat 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hermitage, the word you seek is "determinative", not "valid". There is no such thing as us saying a term is "invalid" on it's face. However, there is such a thing as us agreeing on what will be the determinative measure of defining usage here. Once again, for the final time, during the Cold War, when USA opposed communists, USA used terms such as Eastern Bloc, Berlin Wall, Iron Curtain. Back then, the USSR definately did not agree with USA usage of these terms. However, at no time did USSR opposition to those terms become the determinative measure that defined their usage. If you can't understand that, then well, this will never be resolved. Anyone caring to know what War on Terror means, how that term is being used, what the objections to it are and how the term was coined, etc., can get all that information by clicking the link and reading the article. That category link serves as a topic aggregator, is posted on various WOT related pages and is highly beneficial to the readers. Also, it is simply inarguably true that the USA has applied and does apply the term War on Terror to post 9/11 military and other actions which seek to (among other things) eliminate asymmetrical threats. Is any reasonable editor here going to argue that " terrorism" as typically practiced, is not an "asymmetrical threat"? Of course not! The simple fact is that a category of War on Terror is semantically correct and accurate vernacular in English for the topic to which it refers. And it's also accurate to apply that category to this article. Each objection raised above has already been answered by me several times. Merecat 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Nescio and Hermitage, please stop going in circles. If Kevin Baas wants to speak for you both and make a new posting with arguments on this, I'll answer him, but I am not going to repsond to your broken-record complaints on this anymore. Merecat 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You put forward critocisms of the name, some of which were purely political (they are from an editorial afterall, its to be expected) and others are more legitimate; for instance the name "War" implies a front line, two sides, two armies, and that sort of thing. Unfortunately, the name Cold War also falls short on this. It was not a typical war, but a string of related conflicts that came together on a common theme. It also included related events that were not even war necessarilly, such as the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Blockade, the Berlin Wall, Iron Curtain, and other various 'peaceful' things. I do not see you objecting fervently to the name Cold War, so I have to think that you are driven by purely political reasons for your objections to this. Another objection - that the Iraq War was done for political reasons, can also be said about the Space Race. It was a technological race to get into space, just to say you could do it. But its still considered part of the Cold War. Why? Because it took place between the Soviet Union and the USA. The 1980 winter olympics in which the USA beat the Soviet team is considered part of the Cold War as well. Its simply ridiculous to discount the Iraq war when it has a much clearer connection - the two sides are actually fighting each other. And as for your argument that the Iraq War did not begin as part of the War on Terror - which I disagree with for reasons stated numerous times before - The same can be said about the 1980 Olympics (both of them). One had the victory of the USA over the Soviet Union, the other had the large boycott due to the Afghanistan invasion. Its ludacrous to say "they didnt plan it as part of the cold war so it doesnt count." But that is essentially one of your arguments. There is no debate that terrorists are being fought now, so obviously it is part of it currently. This in itself should end the argument, but you will undoubtedly keep on talking and keep on vandalising the article despite having no legitimate reasons to do so. Rangeley 23:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you did not read, because my analogy had not been discussed previously. It explained clearly that events not even intended to be part of the Cold War were included in it, such as the olympics. This precedent removes all reasonable doubt that the Iraq War is currently a part of the War on Terror. As to your other point, this has been discussed. I have already said conflicts on this English encyclopedia are placed at their most commonly used English name, as is anything. The Vietnam War is located there, whereas in Vietnamese it is most commonly called the American War. Perhaps other languages also use this name, or perhaps it is more commonly called something else. Whatever the case, the most commonly used, and recognizable name is used. I highly doubt terrorists call it the War on Terror, however they would not question the conflicts existence. But their name for it, much like the name "American War," is not used in English as the title of the war, and would not be recognized as well as the War on Terror. There are even other English names, such as Long War, World War 3 or 4, but these are not as widely accepted and widely known. Until that happens, and its possible for it to (The War to End All Wars ---> World War I), Wikipedia will continue to keep the name at the War on Terror.
But yet again, this is irrelevant to whether or not Iraq is part of the war. It is an issue with the name of the war, but regardless of what we call it, Iraq is part of it. Rangeley 01:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Read my reply above, for it already addressed that. Rangeley 01:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The more and more wikipedians and civilians alike dig into the Iraq war/War on Terrorism/Invasion of Iraq/Gulf War 2 the less we know. I particularly like this comment, '"You make a very good observation: "if the 2003 Invasion of Iraq is not part of the War on Terror, then what's it part of?" To answer that question, it would make it a war of aggression, and thereby a war crime. Sufficient reason to propose the adoption of euphemistic language."' If you payed attention to the U.N. charter and its implications upon the Invasion you will find that the Iraw war falls directly under the terms of "an act of aggression." We went to war on false pretense and are continued to be led by fictional or idealistic purposes. We aren't really bringing democracy to the Middle-east because we are doing the work for the Iraqis. A democracy requires self-governing, self-liberation, and self-independence. If Iraq doesn't start that way then it can't become a democracy. If we had any respect for the ideals of democracy we would understand it is best for the people of Iraq to decide what to do and let them do it. At least the "democracy" "justification" is what is the most popular fabrication. Ironically in the "shock and awe" of the 10 of March 2003, we had a very different notion of what we were there to accomplish. We all know the "Mission Accomplished" procalmation on a U.S. Navy carrier makes it all the more silly. And what a silly war it is. The "war on terrorism." Good luck with that. Wait, what is terrorism? If it means something similar to the action of terrorization, then doesn't that make the U.S. military/gov't terrorists?-- Existential Thinker 19:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
There are online forums where you can quench your thirst for political debate, I myself belong to one and would gladly give you the link of you so desired. However, Wikipedia is not a political forum. You have given us a political view to ponder, but it is not my job to respond to your view with my view as this is not a political debate. Even the most unjust war can be part of a larger conflict, many say the Vietnam War, or Soviet Afghanistan Invasion were unjustified. But they are still part of the Cold War. Sometimes, in the name of democracy, the USA would prop up dictatorships solely to combat communism. But its still considered part of the Cold War. You have interesting views though, and it would be fun to respond to them point by point, however this is not welcome at Wikipedia. I would also point you to other responses above where a lot more has been said than in just this one response, because they may prove useful to you. Rangeley 19:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Rangeley, you weaken your own argument for adding the partisan title "war on terrorism" to this article (and others). As you illustrated everyone refers to and the universal descriptor for the vietnam war is the "vietnam war"--not the "war for the liberation of south vietnam" or the "war on communism in vietnam." Adding the "war on terrorism" label is simply inserting a partisan POV--it is not providing an accurate description. As you clearly wrote, Wikipedia is not the place for political debate it is the place to put the facts and descriptions. For the Iraq war, it's pretty obvious that "war on terrorism" is a label that is open to dispute, while no one would argue with the simple label "Iraq War"-how about we leave the title at that and leave the rationales for war for the debate floor not the wikipedia. Publicus 20:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The Vietnam War is not the universal name for the war. As I said above (again, please read the preceding discussion as it covered all of this) in the Vietnamese language, the name for it is the American War. In other languages, like Chinese, it may hold a different name as they have had wars with Vietnam and would not likely consider the US one as "The" Vietnam War. It is the standard of the English encyclopedia to use the most common, and most recognized name in the English language for all topics, including countries whose official name differs from the most commonly used English name (think Germany). If "The War on Communism" was the most commonly used name for the Cold War, thats what we would call the Vietnam War a part of. But it isnt the most common name, "The Cold War" is. And thats where we are with The War on Terror, it is the most commonly used name for the conflict. Rangeley 21:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
We need to keep focus here. The question as to whether Wikipedia should have a category War on Terror at all is settled. The real argument is whether Iraq War and 2003 Invasion of Iraq belong to that category. In that light the links provided by Merecat above are worth looking at in detail.
DefendAmerica - U.S. Defense Dept. War on Terror
This site only shows that the U.S. government views the Iraq War as part of the war on terror. Up to now no one involved in this debate has found a Wikipedia policy that says Wikipedia should reflect the U.S. government POV, instead of the neutral POV.
"War on Terror": Amnesty International's Human Rights Concerns
The Amnesty International report deliberately puts quote marks around "war on terror" wherever it appears because they do NOT accept the Bush administration's definition of the term. Hard to see why Merecat thinks this is helping his case.
washingtonpost.com: War on Terror
There are 95 stories in this "Special Report" devoted to the "War on Terror", spanning July 2004 to April 2005, and yet only 3 of those stories refer to Iraq. I think it's fair to assume that the Washington Post had more than 3 stories about the Iraq War during that period. This is strong evidence that as far as the Washington Post is concerned, the fact that an article is about the Iraq War does not, by itself, make it an article about the War on Terror.
BBC NEWS | In Depth | War on Terror
The link is to an page specifically about Al-Qaeda. Nowhere does the page suggest that the Iraq War is part of the War on Terror. What's very interesting however is that there is a link on that page to a news analysis entitled US 'forgetting war on terror. Pursuing the link, we read the following commentary:
So here we have a major counter-terrorism official very specifically disputing the view that Iraq War is part of the War on Terror. Simply put, the categorization is disputed, in this case not by a left-wing extremist but a member of the establishment who has devoted his career to fighting terrorism. That, by itself, is grounds for not including Iraq War in the War on Terror category. Brian Tvedt 02:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, the links pulled were a survey of the top 10 results from google:
So by the rough google estimate, out of the first 10, 6 conflate Iraq and WOT, 1 does not, 2 are indeterminate, and 1 says there's no WOT at all. Seems like the prevalent usage conflates the two.
So in sum, you have individuals criticizing the categorization of Iraq under "War on Terror" (which is natural), but effectively, for purposes of discussing the "War on Terror", both the institutional supporters (and initiators), and institutional opponents of the war treat Iraq as a subcampaign. -- Mmx1 03:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This is stupid. There clearly isn't a consensus on whether or not the invasion of Iraq was part of the War on Terror. The debate is just both sides try to label the article part of the War on Terror (or not) to justify their own world view. I happen to be outraged by the thought that the Iraq war is part of the war on terror. I don't think wikipedia should be parroting Bush talking points. Nevertheless there are people who believe that the Iraq War is part of the War on Terror. The answer, then, is to not catagorize the article as such but include a subsection explaining the controversey. Now you all can keep yelling about this shit or we can compromise and actually complete the damn article.-- Jsn4 09:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jsn4, the effort should be in creating the article not arguing over the proper label--the general concensus in both the media and government is that the conflict in Iraq is called "the Iraq war"--reports don't call it the "battle of Iraq, part of the global fight against terror." Since everyone agrees at least with the term "Iraq war" why not leave it at that and include a section on the debate over the "war on terrorism" label. Take another example, everyone seems to have adopted the "Iraqi insurgent" term even though in previous conflicts such a group might have been labeled "Iraqi rebels"--however, everyone uses the "insurgent" term and practically no one uses the "rebel" term. It's the same with this conflict, we should use a general term that is agreed on "iraq war" and add the labeling dispute within the article. Publicus 13:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
We can all agree that it is hotly disputed whether Iraq is part of the War on Terror. Thus, any unmitigated claim that it either is, or is not, should not be a part of this article. For example, a photo caption "Part of the War on Terrorism" is just as unacceptably POV as "Not Part of the War on Terrorism" would be. Any mention of the WoT should include the fact that it is the Bush administration and their supporters who categorize the war that way. -- Hyperbole 22:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
We are confusing when popular oppinion has an effect, and when it does not. If you were to go out on the street, pull out a map of Europe, point to Germany, and ask 100 people what that nation is, most if not all will call it Germany. I doubt anyones first response would be Deutschland, unless they lived there. Just like if I went to Mexico and pointed to the USA on the map, most people would say Estados Unidos. This is a relative thing. Naming conventions at Wikipedia go with the most commonly used name. The Germany in the English Wikipedia is exactly the same as the Deutschland in the german encyclopedia. It is the same country, different name.
But lets say in this same country, the 60+ percent of the population that did not vote for Angela Merkel dispute the fact that she is infact the Prime Minister. Suppose she was unpopular, which is a slight stretch as she isnt, but its not unthinkable. If 60, 70, 90% of Germany, even 90% of the world disputed that she was the Prime Minister, even vehemently arguing against it in online enecyclopedias as this, does this impact what information we display? No, this is not the same. Facts, such as her being elected, cannot be put aside, even if 90% of the population beleives otherwise, or everyone beleives otherwise, though admittedly if everyone beleived a lie than there would be noone to say otherwise. Luckilly we are not there. In 2000, a similar occurence happened to the one I described. Many people disputed whether George W. Bush was truly the President. But he was put into office through the rules of the government, uncommonly used ones yes, but nonetheless legitimate.
I hope you can see the difference there. Popular oppinion cant change facts, and just because something is disputed does not make it POV to place.
As to the Iraqi Insurgents, this is their most common name. However, when it comes to the facts, even though most people may think they are all from Iraq, or other all from outside Iraq, we cannot go with popular oppinion. We go with facts - they are from both.
Also, is it being a parrot for J.K. Rowling when you say that Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets is part of a larger series, and that this series also includes 5 other books, with another on its way? Lets skip ahead a year or two. Lets say book 7 comes out, and everyone hates it and thinks its a terrible end to the story, even trying to say its a book all its own, not part of the previous series. As Wikipedia, what would we do? J.K. Rowling is the author, and she obviously has say in whether or not its part of the series, not her fans. Just like if you were to make a set of comics for your own enjoyment, and a reader disputes whether or not one of the comics is part of the series. Their oppinion doesnt matter, the maker of it says it is part of the series. Maybe it doesnt fit, it could be terrible, but it is still part of it. Likewise, the Iraq War as started as part of the War on Terror. Maybe you feel it doesnt fit, maybe you feel its a terrible sequel, but the maker of the series, the USA and allies, has said its a part of it, and ultimately you can do nothing about this fact.
And finally, another interesting point. Most people do not call it the "battle of Iraq, part of the global fight against terror." This is absolutely true. People do not call the Vietnam War "battle of Vietnam, part of the Cold War" either. And as such, neither article is located at these locations ( Iraq War and Vietnam War respectively.) However, both of these wars do include a "Part of" section specifically for this purpose. Most people do not call it the "Battle of the Bulge, part of World War Two," however this too includes a "Part of" section where it links to World War Two. Individual operations, for instance Operation Swarmer, also includes a "Part of" section. The "part of" section is not the title, but instead links to the wider conflict for which it belongs.
And as I just noticed another point, here is my final paragraph, I promise. Someone said that the term "war on terror" has been used in the past. This is true. However, noone is saying this is "part of a war on terror" but instead "part of The War on Terror," a specific conflict. Another example of this is the Gulf War, a term used for the Iran Iraq War, until another conflict, that in 1991, became the most common event related to that name. Specific battles in the Gulf War would say it is part of the Gulf War, and this would be correct, as the Gulf War refers to the 1991 conflict. Likewise, saying something is part of the War on Terror is saying it is part of the US led campaign that began in 2001, not previous efforts that are no longer commonly referred to as the War on Terror. Rangeley 23:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Its unfortunate that this is all you see, but I doubt much can be done to change that. However, here are a few more lines for your enjoyment.
This is as much a propaganda term as the term 'New Deal' that refers to the series of government programs run by the US Government during the Great Depression. But noone is suggesting this be deleted, or references to the New Deal in its related articles be removed. You can call this innuendo, I call it pointing out a double standard in your argument. Unless you would object to including the Tennessee Valley Authority as part of the New Deal, in which case I was mistaken in my assessment. Rangeley 01:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Here is quote Bush gave just this year. "The doctrine still stands: If you harbor a terrorist, you're equally as guilty as the terrorists who commit murder." "There's a reason why he was declared a state sponsor of terror -- because he was sponsoring terror. He had used weapons of mass destruction. And the biggest threat that this President, and future Presidents, must worry about is weapons of mass destruction getting in the hands of a terrorist network that would like to do us harm. That is the biggest threat we face. Airplanes were horrible; the attacks of aircraft were horrible. But the damage done could be multiplied if weapons of mass destruction were in the hands of these people." That's just a couple excerpts from a speech Bush gave back in January 2006. You can find it here The White House There now it is fact that OIF is a campaign of The War on Terrorism. It was part part of the decision that led to the war in Iraq. Most believe that the War on Terrorism was exclusive to just afghanistan, the Taliban, and Al Queada. Most forget the official Title as well "The Global War on Terrorism" Along the lines of what Rangely had posted earlier The Battle of the Bulge was part of WW2, as well as D-Day, The Battle for Midway, and let us not forget the day of infamy Pearl Harbor. For those who dispute this simple fact, need to far better research their opinions and statements. And at the very least provide some official sources. --Swelling20 11:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Swelling20 10May2006
First of all there is no need to prove SH was linked to 9/11 by supporting the terrorists involved or not. Second hence the official Title "The Global War on Terrorism" so yes he has declared the entire world a terrorist state. A war with no boundaries and a most determined enemy, and many ways to fight that enemy. As far as the US's use of WMD that was over 50 years ago when the Atoms fell on Japan. However this is about wether OIF is part of GWOT which it quite is a fact. --Swelling20 12:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Allright OIF is officially part of GWOT, there is NO dispute. As far as the Resolution I have read it many times. Maybe you should take this opportunity to re read it after all it does state OIF is part of GWOT. The GWOT is a result of the events on 9/11 not the start of OIF. Yes the GWOT states just that the entire world "US, China, Afghanistan, Former Soviet Union, Germany, France, England, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Antarctica, The Netherlands, Sweden, Turkey, Lebanon, and yes even Iraq plus Every Surface on the face of this great planet" is involved. Not to mean that War has been declared on each and every country or state, but terrorists and terrorist networks that may find refuge within those locales. Not meaning that war will be declared on those countries that do have terrorists in their midst. The GWOT is kind of a new war one that has never been fought before. Iraq is included in the war on terror because of SH use of terrorist tactics and supporting other terrorists in general. Not that in any way has it been stated that SH is directly linked to 9/11 by me. My only intent here is to set it straight that OIF is a Campaign of the GWOT. After all the GWOT is not just against those involved in the events of 9/11 but all terrorists, not a specific Nation or terrorist group. For OIF to not be included in the GWOT would be totally inacurate. After all we are building a source of information based on facts not opinions. OIF being part of GWOT is not my opinion it is a fact based on the resolution which you must really read more carefully. Plus numerous speeches and the official standing of the President and his administartion as well as Congress. There are now two campaigns under the GWOT OEF (Operation Enduring Freedom) and OIF.
If you actually went and resourced the facts on this subject you would also come to the same conclusion. I am kind of new to Wiki here and may not know exactly how this whole deal works. But what I do know is my facts. The GWOT is not propoganda, a political debate, nor a argument of any sort. It is a subject that has no just cause to be debated over for the purpose of a factual work such as wikipedia. I am an American and I believe every person has a right to their own opinions even about this subject. However as I stated above this source needs to be accurate in all ways. If the official standing of the US is that OIF is in support of the GWOT then it officialy is, no debate. After all GWOT is a US led Campaign same as OEF and OIF. I will not argue the details of GWOT because it is a much broader topic than I care to discuss at this time. --Swelling20 13:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Please explain your point shortly. De mortuis... 00:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, this absurd argument is being sparked by partisans that agree with one and not the other and want to separate the two. If it were indeed the U.S. fighting the WOT and the U.K. fighting in Iraq, you can argue away to your heart's delight to whether or not Iraq constitutes a fight against terrorism. But as the U.S. is the principal protagonist in both, and it is a subcampaign in U.S. military terms, the two are indelibly linked and your arguments over the merits of it won't change that link.-- Mmx1 18:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I for one know that OIF is in support of GWOT, for any who oppose: Buy some reading glasses! You have given no case for your arguments. Stop trying to make points you have obviously not thouroghly researched, or only read what you wanted to hear to support your nonexistent point. Please someone show me one source that actually states OIF is not a part of GWOT, because numerous links have been posted that actually say OIF is in support of GWOT. --Swelling20 14:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I include the CIA and the NSA are "reputable non-partisan institutions".-- Jersey Devil 17:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Repost of comment in identical poll in Iraq War Talk page: De mortuis, time and time again points against the term have been raised and have failed. You are essentially stating that regardless of this failure, you will continue to fight it without base. I will be the first to admit that it is likely that most people will vote along what they see as 'party lines' so to speak. They have not participated in discussion and have not seen how they have gone, but you prove that even when people participate they can still be ignorant to the truth. This topic is controversial, which makes it an unfortunate case in point of support of the policy Wikipedia has adopted. Arguments are weighed on their value, logicality, and and overall worth rather than the number of people who say it. I beleive that this is exactly why you have put up the War on Terror template for a "speedy deletion" and created this poll. You, and others, have lost in the attempt to put up a convincing argument, and now you have resorted to redefining the issue as one where we see how many people go to each side of a line. Its tiresome, and counterproductive. Rangeley 02:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Its interesting that you cannot see where the difference lies. The United States and Allies create Campaign A. In Campaign A, they make War with Afghanistan, and War with Iraq. This is a fact. Both of these wars are part of this campaign. I want you to dispute this, Mr Tibbs. Provide us all with information stating that the United States and its allies began the Iraq War as a seperate war, and not under the wider "Campaign A." Campaign A was named the "War on Terrorism" by those waging it. Just like the Al-Aqsa Intifada, this particular conflict has been popularly known by its assigned title, rather then names given to it by outsiders, such as the Oslo War, or American Expasionism. When a bus bombing occured in 2002, would it be a POV to say it was part of the Al-Aqsa Intifada, when those perpetrating it claim it to be? No. Simply, no. It is not POV, but instead factual. Is it somehow justifying the attack by putting it into the wider conflict? No. Simply, no. Is it somehow justifying the Iraq War by putting it into the wider conflict? No. Simply, no. Do most people call the War on Terror (ie, campaign A) American Expansionism? Nope. The Axis of Evil is a term used to describe 3 nations, not to label an existing military alliance. Further, nations military alliances are not displayed in their infoboxes. If a military alliance existed, and the popular name for it was Axis of Evil, this is where we would find it at. Just like we can find the former soviet alliances at Eastern bloc, a term they did not create, but was instead applied by western media and governments. Rangeley 21:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The government has the ability to define programs and conflicts it begins. They also have the ability to start new operations and initiatives in this conflict. Lets say you make a television series, called "The Best Damned Sports Show, Period." You make 10 episodes, all about sports teams. A few of them came out good, but the rest of the episodes sucked. By the end of the series run, most people hate it. At wikipedia, some people begin saying "Hey, its POV to say that episode is part of 'The Best Damned Sports Show, Period,' because it sucked! Saying its part of that series is blatantly POV!"
Would you agree with this person? Because thats whats going on here. Those who made the "series" or in this case campaign, named it, and started two wars under it. Whether or not your show was indeed the best damned sports show, and whether or not a war actually fought solely terrorists is beyond the point. It was begun as a part of it, and that is all that it takes for us to define it as part of it. Rangeley 21:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Wasnt the codename of the Iraqi invasion originally "Operation Freedom" and not "Operation iraqi freedom"?
No, it has never been assigned that name. Rangeley 20:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Who's rewriting history? The 2002 Senate Resolution for war on Iraq clearly states:
Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;
Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations;
Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;
Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and....
The House Resolutions and Colin Powell's statements before congress contain similar language. Terrorism was ALWAYS part of the Iraq War rationale. It is Kevin Baas and Nescio who are attempting to rewrite history by claiming it was only WMD that lead us to war. -- Mmx1 00:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
How does that effect the fact that it was stated as a part of the war on terrorism before it began? And please note that the resolution does not state that Saddam was involved in 9-11. Rangeley 03:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Some misconceptions have become part of this page.
Your main problem in your entire lengthy argument is that you are looking at the war on terrorism as an open ended term. It is not. The term applies to a specific conflict being fought by the USA and its allies. You can question the credibility of this conflict, and question whether the popular name of it accurately reflects whether it is doing what it is or not. You can even question whether the wars in this conflict are justified at all. However, this is irrelevant. Just as we link together the different parts of the Nazi "Final Solution," a program that is popularly known as the Holocaust, we must include the different parts of the US/Ally led campaign, popularly known as the War on Terror. When you include Auschwitz and Buchenwald together with Krystalnach, it is not a point of view. These different events and camps are linked together under the same nazi program. So long as this nazi program is known popularly as the holocaust, it is correct to state they are part of the holocaust. So long as this US/Ally program is known popularly as the War on Terror, it is correct to state the Iraq war is part of the War on Terror. Rangeley 16:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Usually, the
burden of proof is on those making a claim, and not on those disputing it. Therefore, we need a source supporting the suggestion that Iraq is part of the WOT. Second, Google is not a valid instrument and you fail to notice that the same Google search came up with the
BBC using quotation marks, arguably THE source of news in the world.
Nomen Nescio
01:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the opposition to the use of War on Terror in the info box (or as a category) for this article boils down to three points:
Now regarding these points, think about this:
Welcome back and I hope your weekend was good. I had sun, sea and BBQ. Anyway, several observations
ad 1 To include every action from the past 50 years seems unreasonable. Further, your logic does not onclude ties of the US government to Al Qaeda around the same time. Let alone all the other terrorist related activities by the US. If Iraq was involved in terrorism, you should say the same about the US.
ad 2 It is clear there are numerous, and notable, sources that do not share the position of the Bush administration. Contrary to your example Israel, which all notable organisations accept as state. Not a valid analogy. Second, there is no debate surrounding the WOT. The controversy is Iraq. By the governments own adminsion Iraq was invaded because of WMD and ties to 9-11. Both allegations are officially not supported by the current evidence available.
ad 3 Stating there will be an earthquake, or impeachment is saying what "might" be. To conclude that the US is already trying to make the inevitable attack on Iran part of the WOT is not a prediction. The administration already is using ties to terrorism in its statements. Which is exactly what the result would be if we adopted your logic: any conflict can now be part of the WOT.
Nomen Nescio
21:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that's a very good representation of the points that have been made. Regarding being accused of historical revisionism here: the iraq war was ostensibly a " pre-emptive strike". does anyone disagree with that? Kevin Baas talk 03:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not a political debate, or debate on the Iraq War in general, Kevin. Whether or not it is a pre-emptive strike has no bearing on whether it is part of the conflict. Rangeley 03:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
It's the USA's war as far as the world is concerned, they declared the war, so why not call it what the USA calls it? I see no problem with that. Just because you (Nomen Nescio) may personally believe the USA is "terrorist" doesn't mean it is fact. You are politically biased, and that has no place in a purely factual encyclopedia. nuff said. -Pj- 03:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Several observations
Please people, let's stay focused here. As I identified above, there are only three basic controversies regarding a category called " War on Terror" and I have listed them. above. Regarding point #1 "Ex post facto", I resolved that by providing actual information, contemporaneous to and prior to March 2003 to show that "terror" related issues were indeed being attributed Iraq. Also the 2002 Senate resolution, posted by Mmx1, additionally shows that the actions against Iraq were indeed " War on Terror" related. These points establish that Iraq invasion 2003 did indeed have a "terror" related predicate as part of the starting rationale. However, I still see that Mr. Tibbs points to news from after the March 2003 invasion date to "prove" that USA assertions about some terror links were wrong. This is not relevant because it's already been shown that at the time of the invasion there was a perceived "terror" link in Iraq and therefore, the 2003 invasion itself (which is what this article is about) is accurately stated to be part of the War on Terror. We do not de-ratify a premise by subsequent events. At the time of the invasion, the premise indeed was that Iraq was terror related. Therefore, all complaints about the terror-relation status - as seen at the time of the invasion, have been resolved. Further complaints under this point are foreclosed from reasonable doubt. This point has been proved. The next point is #2, the "Pro-USA" aspect of the term " War on Terror (actually, as posted in the article it's " War on Terrorism".) The objections raised on this point are very vexsome. On one hand, I do understand Nescio's point which is the contention that "War on Terror" is a "propaganda" term. As the previous dialog will show, I've already agreed that it is one (and answered that point - see above). Nescio also argues that USA might be rightly accused or "terror" itself, and therefore, to allow USA to brand its opponents in this conflict as "terrorists" is to adopt a USA-centric view. Suffice it to say, if USA were indeed attacking others on the basis USA has sustained confirmed attacks (eg: 1993 World Trade Center bombing, 1996 Khobar Towers bombing 2000 USS Cole, 2001 9/11) , then one might say that USA is "terrorist". Absent that, then we end up in a semantical debate about what is " terrorism". To those who make this objection, I would ask them, is the wiki page on Terrorism wrong? Also, it would seem that USA-centric or "Pro-USA" argument actually has a fall back. Not only is it being contended that "War on Terror" is pro-USA because it's a USA term, but, it's being contended that USA is "terrorist" itself, so using the term is biased and it's also being contended that for this reason, using as a category is factually false. These arguments do not hold water. It's already been established on this page via the preponderance of the evidence that the term " War on Terror" is in wide enough use and with wide enough understanding in the English speaking world as to be a benchmark. When we write the wiki, we do not claim to be writing the absolute truth. Rather, what we write is what's generally understood to be the case. Example: it's generally understood that migrants crossing the border into USA illegally are illegal immigrants. Likwise, it's generally understood that fighters who attack in certain ways are terrorists. And it's generally understood that a country (USA) which undertakes a wide scale military action can reasonably call that a "war". USA is indisputably engaged in preemptively averting and otherwise prosecuting a "war" against persons and situations which USA deems a "terrorist" threat to USA. Ergo, the rational basis of the actual-in-use-term of "War on Terror" is valid. To refuse to acknowledge that USA refers to its actions as "War on Terror" is to substitute our own opinions in place of the established facts of that term's usage. However, if indeed USA is also "terrorist" itself (I say not), then the answer here is to have an article about Terrorist activities committed by USA. Canceling the truth about one point War on Terror, does not establish the truth about another USA terror (if there is such a thing). Lastly, #3, the "Endless war" risk that USA might expand its application of the term "War on Terror", does not preclude us as editors from using it in this current context now. As per WP:NOT, the wiki is ot a crystal ball and we do not try to guess the future. Speculated future misapplications are no excuse against discussed and agreed upon applications today. I am reasonably sure that I have addressed and answered the objections to " War on Terror". Merecat 16:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Out of interest the US Medals given to soldiers who served in Iraq in 2003 were tiled "GWOT" Global War on Terror. The Australian medals were titled "ICAT" International Coalition Against Terrorism. Greynurse 13:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, the discussion got heated, it got lengthy, and it involved a great many people. But several days have passed since the weekend (which seemed to be the peak) and since than things have cooled off. I think now people are more willing to come to reasonable conclusions. The discussions have revealed the core issues and arguments. I have not seen the arguments for recognizising the Iraq War as part of the War on Terror disputed. They proved to be solid against everything thrown at them so far. I think it reasonable that we can conclude that they are therefore worthy of application in ending the edit war, which has needlessly consumed time for all of us involved.
Enough time has passed, and enough has been said. Its time to implement the conclusion. Rangeley 01:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Nope, I have chosen to look through it all and I just dont see it. I wont rule out the possibility that I missed something, simply point out to me where the arguments are refuted and we can continue discussion. However, we must remember that we are at Wikipedia, a site meant to be fast to get things right through cooperation. We cant hold things up forever just because you want to balk, call me names, question whether I have read this or that. We have done this for weeks now, and its time to put it aside. I was never going for a majority, or a supermajority here, and it is shameful that is all you were going for, Añoranza. I couldnt care less which side has the more votes, but instead have strived to be right, and get it right. I feel that since this debate began, there is a much stronger, and more developed argument for having it as part of it than against. You obviously dont know me, but I do not just go around endlessly debating something that I know I am wrong on. Especially on Wikipedia, which I have only once before debated on before this, and it was months ago. I dont just get on here and think, hey, lets waste some peoples time, including my own. I am doing this, and discussing this with you and others because I beleive the system at Wikipedia can work. It is not a system of who can get the most supporters, but rather, whichever side is right is the side that is implemented. There is no debating that the poll stands at 13-4 (one vote changed). I am not claiming the poll states otherwise. But look under those 14 votes originally against it, and look at the responses point by point. Look at the discussion under it, the discussion elsewhere, its even gone onto my talk page. The debate is over, all that can be left is obstruction by those who disagree with the outcome, but are out of arguments to defend their view. I dont think this is what Wikipedia is about, and I doubt its what you think Wikipedia is either.
So please, point out the refutations that you keep claiming I and others missed, and stop just claiming I missed them without base. If they dont exist, thats fine too, and we can get along with our lives with this learning experience behind us. Rangeley 03:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Rangeley, the fact is that although you and I have indeed proved the logical accuracy of including War on Terror as a category for "see also" in the info box, the consensus of the other editors who outnumber us on that point is against WOT in the box. Personally, I feel you should yield to the others on this. Not all editorial decisions are logical. At this point, it's an editorial decision and we have been overruled. If you want consensus to carry when it agrees with you, you have to accept it when you are in the minority also. I yield to Tibbs, et al, on this one and I ask that you do also. Merecat 05:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not beleive that this is the way Wikipedia is intended to work, and it is clearly written that wikipedia is both not a democracy, and a consensus is not merely the results of a poll. I wonder if the tables were turned, and if Añoranza, Mr. Tibbs, and Nescio had the logical, truthful argument, would they accept the idea that the opposition can win merely through having 9 more people on their side? If a movement sprung up to claim the world flat, would the 100 people pushing for that here overrule the scientifically backed oppinion if it only had several supporters? I suppose such things are an inevitability. It is a difficult job to create a quality article on a contemporary event, we were faced with this when the the Ratzinger became Pope a year ago. Determining what is important is tough enough, and when you throw in an element of controversy, like the Hitler Youth program, it doesnt make things easier. Back then people were stating it was POV to say Ratzinger was forced to join the program, even though it was mandatory to do so, among other things. As time passed, eventually the truth was seen for the truth, and if you look today you see the truth is indeed in the article. I guess it was unreasonable to expect much from this article so soon, the hype has not died down. But when it does, perhaps years from now, I have no doubt that Wikipedia will have re-evaluated the issue and determined that the truth is not in violation of NPOV, just as it did with the Pope. And when that day comes, perhaps you will regret insisting so vehemently on the conclusion you wrongly reached.
It was a good discussion. I know the truth, others know the truth, and even you guys probably know the truth too. Some day, Wikipedia will have that luxory. But I accept that this day is not today. I will not continue to push this, per Merecat's suggestion. Rangeley 19:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I am still hoping to come to resolution of this issue and hope possibly this can be it. I have seen Mr. Tibbs and Rangeley have already come to an agreement that quotation marks is a fair middle ground and non POV way of coming to a middle ground. I agree with this as the term is one that is being used in the current conflict that the Iraq War is factually part of, however the term is not used by the whole world, though it is used in The United States and the UK in legal documents. Can we come to this center ground? -- Zer0faults 17:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I never agreed to that, because it is not the standard used for any other conflict. Rangeley 19:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I am posting straight factual information as I see it relates to the usage of the term "war on terror" in relation to the conflict in Iraq. Can we please have an alternating list as according to Wikipedia:Straw polls voting is not binding. Thank You -- Zer0faults 20:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Medals given to participants of Operation Iraqi Freedom were titled "Global War on Terror Expeditiary Medal" and "Global War on Terror Service Medal." [56] [57] [58] [59] (PDF) [60]
2) The phrasing "war on terror" is used repeatedly in H.J Res 114, the resolution passed by both House and Senate authorizing the use of force in Iraq. [61] [62](PDF)
3) The US Senate voted by a majority in favor of H.J Res 114 by a vote of 77 to 23. [63]
4) The UK Parliament stated as one of reasons to goto war as Iraq's possibility of spreading WMD's to terrorists and terrorist states. [64]
5) UK Parliament voted by majority to use force in Iraq by count of 412 to 149. [65]
5) A military campaign presents what one side of the conflict does, not what both sides do. [66] [67]
6) Brief explanation of the term " operation" from Wikipedia. the term Operation Iraqi Freedom is not being debated oddly, though that is also POV if seen as a statement and not a name. Please read furthur to code name for futher understanding.
7) Military operations and campaigns are named by government officials. Desert Storm leaked to press by anonymous government official, Cold War named by Bernard Baruch while working for the United Nations Atomic Energy Commission (UNAEC) in 1947 as the United States representative. Operation Iraqi Freedom named by the US Government. [68]
8) Operations conducted under other campaigns are in fact listed as so on all other Wikipedia pages. Vietnam War part of Cold War, Battle of Kursk part of World War 2, Western Front part of World War 1, Battle of Gettysburg part of American Civil War, etc.
O removed the part of as being against consensus.
Nomen Nescio
21:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyone else see this link New_york_times#Times_self-examination_of_bias coming up incorrectly, if so please fix in article. Thank You -- Zer0faults 22:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Somewhat late, but this maybe interesting:
Nomen Nescio
Gnothi seauton
10:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a poll going on at the Iraq War article that is related to this article. You can add your vote here: [70] -- Mr. Tibbs 23:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the article needs considerable re-wording in its present form to represent the fact that the US was not the sole nation involved in the invasion. Whilst it contributed the largest portion of the invasion it still only held around 60% of the forces involved, The UK, Australia etc. holding the rest. The invasion was not planned and implemented by the US, but rather by the Coalition of the willing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.107.151.178 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 29 May 2006.
I edited the article yesterday. I made well over 50 edits and i'm still only half way through. There was one part in the middle that was so POV i had to extensivley re word it, the info was correct it was just written in such a biased way it was basically slagging off the iraqi armies response. I had to re word it to say things like "the iraqi army was unable to respond to..." to replace statements like "furthermore the iraqi army didnt even retaliate due to an entirely incompetant leadership" etc etc. Please , I'm trying hard here to make this a good article but its not easy when people are smacking their own opinions down as facts. I'd go as far as to say that really any comment that is more than common sense needs to be referenced from now on - its the only way such a current afairs article can be good quality and NPOV.
Futhermore, currently there are about 10,000 UK troops to about 133,000 US troops there. But at the time of invasion there were actually closer to around 30,000 UK troops in iraq and 100,000 US troops. So if you want to be a pedantic prick with the numbers then it was around 23% UK and 77% US. (excluding the 2% of total troops which were foreign). No one says the US made a small contribution and we all except it made the largest, but the invasion would not have been practical AT THAT TIME had the UK and other nations not been involved as the US couldnt commit enough troops. If you read the article it actually already states something similar. Now im not saying the US was incapable of it, but rather more forces from the US would have had to have gone costing more to the US and taking more time to deploy to the region. This is about making a good encylopedia and not about only representing the major party. Please... reverters.... GET OVER IT.
The NASA photo caption on this page claims that the smoke plumes are from bomb impacts, while the caption on the image's page claims the plumes are burning oil-trenches set afire by Iraqi forces as a defensive measure. By personal memory and the color of the smoke, I reckon the latter correct-- does anyone know more definitively? AlanKHG 05:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this what they mean with interesting?:
Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 02:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
For those interested, an RfC has been filed regarding User:Zer0faults at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults. Any comments would be appreciated. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I would invite all who are interested to partake in the discussion that is taking place on this page. Rangeley 14:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
You two said above
At any given time, what the president/administration says is the USA's position, is the USA position. Anyone trying to say this is not so, is wrong. Merecat 02:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed a couple of references to the former Iraqi president as "Saddam" in this article. Although this is accepted in the political world, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; we wouldn't call George Bush "George" throughout an article! (With the exception of quotes,) I think that we should change "Saddam" references to "Hussein" references, unless it's important to differentiate between Saddam and other Husseins in particular contexts. Does this sound right? T. S. Rice 08:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Please feel free to visit and comment the debate on whether Iraq was invaded to fight terrorism. [72] This is to counter the severely one-sided and biased discussion that Rangeley started. Instead of redacting out all the relevant information this RFC presents the entire case and not only what Rangeley wants you to know. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 09:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Discussion on the consensus reached is located here [73]. Rangeley 01:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Seems someone with a fairly... festive mind erased the strength of the U.S. forces in Iraq, the commanders, and replaced the result of the conflict with "Sex". I really hope that whoever was behind that is warned. John D'Adamo 18:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph from the article which states "Careful inspections after Iraq's capitulation failed to find weapons of mass destruction.[10][11]" is incorrect. The search for WMD's is still on going and there have been some discover of WMD as noted in the following published articles:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/22/060622055545.07o4imol.html
Why these findings have not been published by the "main stream" press amazes me.
And, let's not forget that the US officially stated they have not found WMD. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 15:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've marked several sections on this article that I think should be merged into Iraq War. Please go to Talk:Iraq War to discuss so we keep the discussion in one place. -- Bobblehead 02:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Funny how this article doesnt mention Bush's references to the security of Israel as an ally of the US, esp. when in context of the North Korean strife and missile launches. NK, which poses a threat to American soil, is ignored, while Saddam's SCUDs only posed a threat to Israel (Powell's fairy-tale drones aside). Anyone wanna supplement the article with this information? It is severely lacking. -Anon
The 100,000 civilian deaths was reported by Lancet in Sept. 2004. That was 18 months after occupation. It is now about 40 months after invasion so this figure cannot be accurate. 81.157.196.23 00:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Somebody had moved the entire page text to
Gulf War II and just made this a redirect, I moved it back. That's a silly name that makes it sound like a Hollywood movie, please don't move pages without clear consensus mandate from the people ;)
Sherurcij (
Speaker for the Dead)
12:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that the way that the way the deaths are quoted is quite POV against the war. Most sources quoted the figure at the time that George W. Bush used, but he is the only mentioned as quoting that number. I am not trying to suggest my feelings here about GWB or anything, but it's quite obvious that due to his public reputation, and unpopularity that many people don't consider him to be a very trustworthy source, especially since obviously it's in his interests to quote a low figure. Therefore the 30,000-40,000 figure is portrayed as a 'rogue' figure. In reality however, the opposite is true - I've personally never seen any figure anywhere for the number of deaths that anywhere close to that high except that one study called the lancet study. Even people strongly opposed to the war (eg: Michael Moore) quote a figure somewhere around 40,000 people (and recently too). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fookoyt ( talk • contribs) 23 July 2006.
According to a Harris Poll released July 21 found that 50% of U.S. respondents said they believe Iraq had the forbidden arms when U.S. troops invaded in March 2003. This was reported in numerous news articles, such as The State ( http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/15215272.htm) and The Washington Post ( http://blog.washingtonpost.com/offbeat/2006/08/do_you_believe_in_wmd.html). PJ 06:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed {{pov}} tag a few weeks ago after other editors removed some of the pov edits made by others. Obviously the topic is a heavily debated one so it is my opinion that major edits should be discussed first as the changes may present a pov. The recent edits by Garygoldstein have not been discussed and present a pov. I reverted the edits by the user and a second suspected sock puppet 69.86.126.2 of the same user. At this point, I would like the opinions of other editors on the edits made by the user before adding the pov tag or requesting the help from an admin. I have no opinion on the subject either way and have no interest in the US/IRAQ dispute so I have nothing to add from a pov. Just trying to keep all articles NPOV. I already forgot 21:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I put in this section. I somehow don't think it will last long but I believe it to be true. The truth will out eventually. It would be nice if Wiki was ahead of the game.
Why the USA invaded Iraq because Iraq was pricing oil in Euros not Dollars:- [74]
Why the USA will invade Iran - if they do - for the same reason [75]
SmokeyTheFatCat 16:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
As I suspected my addition has been deleted. Rangeley just seems to want to accept the Bush administration line without question. Shame. I had hoped for more from Wiki. SmokeyTheFatCat 19:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
So it's not 'rationale' but 'publicly given rationale' then? SmokeyTheFatCat 20:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
So it's Wiki's place just to parrot the White House line then? Imagine if Wiki existed in 1939 and was edited by Germans. What would you have said about the Nazi invasion of Poland? You should be ashamed of yourself Rangeley. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You have not answered my question. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You still haven't answered my question. I guess you're not going to. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)