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The whole idea that Villeneuve would have overshot the turn is entirely POV and needs to be removed or at least qualified as pure conjecture. If you're going to quote other people's opinions those people should be impartial experts, and this is clearly not the case here. The two sources listed are Luc Domenjoz and James Allen: authors of Schumacher biographies. That is, they are neither engineers nor race drivers with expertise in the field, but writers with a vested interest in mitigitating the circumstances surrounding the collision. One can also draw an adverse inference from the fact that the Ferrari team produced zero evidence to this effect (Schumacher's telemetry plus the video evidence for starters) when jumping to Schumacher's defence. Given all the other accusations that Ferrari were leveling at Villeneuve and the Williams team, surely they would have made this accusation too if there were any merit to it? It was very much in Ferrari's interest to show that Villeneuve would have taken himself out of the race but for the collision, but Ferrari never made that argument.
I'm not even sure what Allen and Domenjoz were even looking at to come to such a conclusion. The video evidence shows Villeneuve not even locking his wheels under braking, and making the corner exit with about a meter to spare. In any event, Schumacher hit him from behind, and the momentary loss of traction combined with the change in the car's attitude certainly did not help Villeneuve negotiate the corner.
Quite frankly, I am amazed that ten years after the fact, people still don't want to give Villeneuve credit for driving a great race and making a spectacular pass. Schumacher is not God, OK? He made a huge mistake in not taking a defensive racing line, and Villeneuve took advantage of it. That's all there is to it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.230.48.135 ( talk) 22 April 2007
I'm tempted to agree with you here. At no point during any official investigation would it appear the Villeneuve overshoot was investigated and the two sources seem a bit biased as they were both taken from Schumacher biography's. It's far from a universally recognised view so I feel we should be giving the view that Schumacher turned into Villeneuve far more prominence and it would be good to get some references from respected sources and journalists to support the view that the FIA believed to be true. AlexJ 21:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. BTW, I do have Schumacher's official quote from a few hours after the race, after the stewards had determined that it was a "racing incident":
My source is On Track vol. 17, no. 22, p. 23.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.87.230.199 ( talk) 25 April 2007
Interesting point, mysterious stranger :D Perhaps we should put that in the article too? Alex, what do you think? (I guess I shouldn't expect you to reply until the 2nd May?) 4u1e 20:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
"However, it later emerged that the exchange of position was by prior arrangement between the two teams in exchange for Mclarens assistance earlier in the race. For reasons never explained, no action was taken regarding this clearly illegal collusion."
I removed the above from the article. For starters there are no sources/references. Secondly BBC reported at the time that "His defence, according to reports in The Times newspaper last Saturday, will refer to claims that the McLaren and Williams teams colluded during the race.". This will therefore have been considered by the FIA during the disciplinary hearing and as they found Schumacher guilty and didn't find Williams/McLaren/Villeneuve guilty, was dismissed. Alexj2002 17:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
A few things as to why I've placed this article on hold:
I feel I'm being maybe a bit harsh in some respects, but I'm too easily confused by how this article runs. Issues above should be addressed/contended by 5th January, 2007, or it will be failed. Good luck and thanks for your work! Mouse Nightshirt 14:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Lampman ( talk) 17:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Detail on the allegations that McLaren and Williams colluded to fix the results belong in the section on 'Collusion Allegations'. Someone had inserted the allegations, unsourced and stated as fact rather than an allegation, into the section on the conclusion of the race. Fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.90.185 ( talk) 15:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
BAD LINK There link for Pedro Pacheco, mayor of Jerez who allegedly disrupted the podium ceremony, is wrong. It leads to a football player with the same name who is quite a different person. There does not seem to exist a Wikipedia article for Mr Pacheco the mayor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.188.136.56 ( talk) 09:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
the williams strategy used for frentzen is excellent and it should be mentioned especially if fontana has a section
frentzen was fueled to run a longer first stint so he could have more flexibility, and after letting villeneuve past in the opening part, frenten slows up his pace deliberately with the goal to get himself into a position a few seconds ahead of the leaders, so lets say if a pitstop took 25 seconds frentzen would have to get about 20 seconds behind the leaders when they were to pit
and thats exactly how it played out, frentzen was ahead of schumacher who was a few seconds ahead of JV and he held him back to villeneuve, as soon as villeneuve was right behind him then frentzen suddenly increased his pace and drove away from schumacher before he had to pit again
this is all just my opinion of how they worked his strategy, but i think its clear to see if anyone rewatches the race with this in mind — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.63.190 ( talk) 06:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1997 European Grand Prix article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
1997 European Grand Prix has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
The whole idea that Villeneuve would have overshot the turn is entirely POV and needs to be removed or at least qualified as pure conjecture. If you're going to quote other people's opinions those people should be impartial experts, and this is clearly not the case here. The two sources listed are Luc Domenjoz and James Allen: authors of Schumacher biographies. That is, they are neither engineers nor race drivers with expertise in the field, but writers with a vested interest in mitigitating the circumstances surrounding the collision. One can also draw an adverse inference from the fact that the Ferrari team produced zero evidence to this effect (Schumacher's telemetry plus the video evidence for starters) when jumping to Schumacher's defence. Given all the other accusations that Ferrari were leveling at Villeneuve and the Williams team, surely they would have made this accusation too if there were any merit to it? It was very much in Ferrari's interest to show that Villeneuve would have taken himself out of the race but for the collision, but Ferrari never made that argument.
I'm not even sure what Allen and Domenjoz were even looking at to come to such a conclusion. The video evidence shows Villeneuve not even locking his wheels under braking, and making the corner exit with about a meter to spare. In any event, Schumacher hit him from behind, and the momentary loss of traction combined with the change in the car's attitude certainly did not help Villeneuve negotiate the corner.
Quite frankly, I am amazed that ten years after the fact, people still don't want to give Villeneuve credit for driving a great race and making a spectacular pass. Schumacher is not God, OK? He made a huge mistake in not taking a defensive racing line, and Villeneuve took advantage of it. That's all there is to it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.230.48.135 ( talk) 22 April 2007
I'm tempted to agree with you here. At no point during any official investigation would it appear the Villeneuve overshoot was investigated and the two sources seem a bit biased as they were both taken from Schumacher biography's. It's far from a universally recognised view so I feel we should be giving the view that Schumacher turned into Villeneuve far more prominence and it would be good to get some references from respected sources and journalists to support the view that the FIA believed to be true. AlexJ 21:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. BTW, I do have Schumacher's official quote from a few hours after the race, after the stewards had determined that it was a "racing incident":
My source is On Track vol. 17, no. 22, p. 23.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.87.230.199 ( talk) 25 April 2007
Interesting point, mysterious stranger :D Perhaps we should put that in the article too? Alex, what do you think? (I guess I shouldn't expect you to reply until the 2nd May?) 4u1e 20:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
"However, it later emerged that the exchange of position was by prior arrangement between the two teams in exchange for Mclarens assistance earlier in the race. For reasons never explained, no action was taken regarding this clearly illegal collusion."
I removed the above from the article. For starters there are no sources/references. Secondly BBC reported at the time that "His defence, according to reports in The Times newspaper last Saturday, will refer to claims that the McLaren and Williams teams colluded during the race.". This will therefore have been considered by the FIA during the disciplinary hearing and as they found Schumacher guilty and didn't find Williams/McLaren/Villeneuve guilty, was dismissed. Alexj2002 17:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
A few things as to why I've placed this article on hold:
I feel I'm being maybe a bit harsh in some respects, but I'm too easily confused by how this article runs. Issues above should be addressed/contended by 5th January, 2007, or it will be failed. Good luck and thanks for your work! Mouse Nightshirt 14:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Lampman ( talk) 17:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Detail on the allegations that McLaren and Williams colluded to fix the results belong in the section on 'Collusion Allegations'. Someone had inserted the allegations, unsourced and stated as fact rather than an allegation, into the section on the conclusion of the race. Fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.90.185 ( talk) 15:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
BAD LINK There link for Pedro Pacheco, mayor of Jerez who allegedly disrupted the podium ceremony, is wrong. It leads to a football player with the same name who is quite a different person. There does not seem to exist a Wikipedia article for Mr Pacheco the mayor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.188.136.56 ( talk) 09:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
the williams strategy used for frentzen is excellent and it should be mentioned especially if fontana has a section
frentzen was fueled to run a longer first stint so he could have more flexibility, and after letting villeneuve past in the opening part, frenten slows up his pace deliberately with the goal to get himself into a position a few seconds ahead of the leaders, so lets say if a pitstop took 25 seconds frentzen would have to get about 20 seconds behind the leaders when they were to pit
and thats exactly how it played out, frentzen was ahead of schumacher who was a few seconds ahead of JV and he held him back to villeneuve, as soon as villeneuve was right behind him then frentzen suddenly increased his pace and drove away from schumacher before he had to pit again
this is all just my opinion of how they worked his strategy, but i think its clear to see if anyone rewatches the race with this in mind — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.63.190 ( talk) 06:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)