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Archive 1 |
This editor is removing sourced material from the article and claiming that it is not sourced or not relevant.The pieces that he has removed are well sourced and relevant.Here: [1]He is claiming that Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting is a non reputable source which is incorrect and the piece he deleted is actually from AFP press agency which is also a reputable source.(AFP, 3/11/06) He has also removed a piece from the Anti Defamation League saying they support Israel for no good reason as well. Owain the 1st ( talk) 16:02, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Owain, you see to be a new editor. I think you would do yourself some good if you familiarized yourself with Wikipedia policy, especially when editing in controversial areas. I can show you a few places to look, if you like. IronDuke 00:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Owain, one of your edits says: Instead they have moved to a more secular stance similar to Fatah.[7]. I found no reference to similarity with Fatah in that article. Could you please show where this is said, or revise that statement. Thank you. - BorisG ( talk) 14:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Should mention the declaration of jihad against the Lions Club and Rotary... AnonMoos ( talk) 05:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
In the section titled as "Relevance of the Charter in the 21st century". We have:
This article about 'Hamas'(political and armed wings) 'Covenant', this section is about its Relevance in 21st century. But, I can't find one single direct statement by a HAMAS(not some dude commenting on it) official concerning the 'Hamas Covenant' in it, as to being irrelevant or any specific changes that has been made to it. What I see is a lot of propagandizing and POV statements related to Hamas political platform - wrong article! this whole section should be heavily trimmed if not removed. -- PLNR ( talk) 05:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I made several changes to the section inline with what was discussed above. I kept for now the last section(I am not too certain about the sources maybe someone can come up with something relevant and it would mean change to the lead, so i'll wait for comments), but as it is IMO it should be also removed. Because Hamas political views doesn't effect the text of their Covenant(certainly the views of skeptical don't). No more than any views/statements/whatever on slavery effected the text of the US Constitution until the Thirteenth Amendment.
Also the statement about recognition, its indirect weasel statement addressing the demands put forth during the 2006 sanctions, not anything I can see in the charter articles. --
PLNR (
talk)
16:57, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Wickey-nl concerning this edit, you made massive change to the lead and content\source removal. Can you explain which statements not supported by the refs? because I couldn't find anything that couldn't be adjusted with minor wording changes and most of it was per source.-- PLNR ( talk) 18:24, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
The Covenant identifies Hamas as one of the wings of the Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. It promotes Islamic rules in every inch of Palestine, and the struggle against the Jews and Zionism
It seems pretty clear that the humanism and tolerance don't apply to the targets of eternal jihad (such as the Jew hiding behind the gharqad tree and the Lions Club and Rotary). The phrase "Under the wing of Islam" also means that non-Muslims can be "tolerated" only if they accept subordinate dhimmi status (i.e. having no political power and with lesser rights and paying more taxes than Muslims"). AnonMoos ( talk) 08:43, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Link 13 is dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.173.65 ( talk) 10:51, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
This section is the result of a WP:OR given it is sourced from the Hamas Covenant itself. It should be deleted. Pluto2012 ( talk) 08:28, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
The original Arabic text uses singular imperative grammar, thus "Muslim" should be used instead of "Muslims." Also, Abdullah is a name meaning "servant/slave of God," which in this context has a lexical rather than nominal meaning; thus, to write "Abdullah" deprives an English speaking reader of lexical information. Here is the Arabic text in question: يا مسلم يا عبد الله، هذا يهودي خلفي تعال فاقتله "O Muslim, O Servant of God, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." -- 21:08, 23 October 2014 68.191.148.45
In line with the many suggestions above to bring balance to the article, I have added a new section comparing the Hamas and Likud charters/platforms. I have read this article and also that on Likud, and since the Hamas charter is a topic of significant on-going interest and commentary, I was surprised that I could not find a comparison between the charters of these two opposing entities. The other option was to start an entirely new article devoted to such a comparison, but I feel that a 'merge' suggestion would soon be forthcoming if this were done. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 14:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Dubstep gen:1) Please respect Wiki protocol by engaging in "Talk" debate before embarking on major edits in articles of a contentious nature.
2) May I also point out that section blanking is illegitimate and represents vandalism [WP:VAN]. A repeat offence will be reported.
3) Regarding your one-liner edit "justification" - 'original research', the section is fully referenced with most of the text having been taken directly from WP:RS publications such as The Guardian, Haaretz, Israeli government web sites, The Jerusalem Post, etc., so your comment is a pure fabrication. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 15:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Tuylrnicracker666: Regarding your revision as of 23:48, 1 January 2015 and your stated justification for deleting on entire section: “Your edit has been rejected. Try to gain consensus on talk BEFORE adding editorial bias. Several problems here, including WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, WP:undue weight, an opinion column is not a reliable source to state facts.” Perhaps you should follow your own advice before becoming guilty of WP:VAN. You discussed ZERO in “Talk”. Unable to? Unwilling to? The problems that you say exist are all unsupported by any debate whatsoever, and provide no information which can be verified and/or refuted. Your justification is therefore empty. Many thanks to the editors who have agreed. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 18:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks for those contributions. I am still relatively new here and do not always understand what the best route is for providing encyclopaedic information. Regarding whether the Likud-Hamas charter comparison should be made ANYWHERE in Wiiki at all, I point to the high frequency of references to the Hamas charter as "proving" that the organization intends to wipe out Israel, irrespective of explanations by Mashal as to why the reference remains in the charter. The same denial of the right of the existence, in this case of a Palestinian state, exists in the earliest Likud platforms. I believe that these comparisons add value to the debate on the on-going conflict and offer a balanced comparison.
Are they all not WP:RS? Definitely not. References to the original documents setting out policy cannot possibly violate WP:RS. I ask if removing references to 'evolution of position' really constructively contributes to an understanding of either of these extremist groups and their ability and even willingness to change (in terms of WP:COMMON), simply because the citations are political analyses and not plain facts? After all, if there is a progressive change with time, is this not WP:COMMON evidence thereof? Instead I would suggest that Beinart's piece is a distinctly constructive contribution to our Wiki understanding. In a recent journal publication - [1] the author also emphasizes the Hamas changes with time.
If there is consensus that Likud has not changed with time, then I am disposed to edits to the sub-section to reflect that.
Whether the section belongs here - I too have my doubts, because it could well mean that the same section should be added to Likud, and that is clumsy to say the least. So I await more elegant suggestions from the experienced editors. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 16:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
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The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the organization's position on many issues at the time. It identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, [2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel. [3] [4] The Charter also asserts that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Zionists were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" [5] The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews of Israel, [6] presenting the Arab–Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, [5] adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom. [5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam. [7] The charter states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts. [8]
The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
A new version of the Charter is about to be released, or has just been released, in May 2017. See for example here: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876 . It omits some of the greatest hits of the old version, such as the jihad against the Lion's Club and Rotary, and the hadith of the Gharqad Tree, but it doesn't seem to be much of a peace document, unless you call basically endorsing the late 1970s "stages" theory a peaceful idea... AnonMoos ( talk) 03:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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Can someone add this source after "A new charter was issued by Hamas leader Khaled Mashal on 1 May 2017 in Doha"? -- 2001:8003:4023:D900:7C04:34E2:6179:8E12 ( talk) 04:04, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Who was the author of the 1988 Hamas Covenant? Who ratified it? Seems like everybody accepts the document as central to Hamas but how did it become so?-- Exjerusalemite ( talk) 16:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This editor is removing sourced material from the article and claiming that it is not sourced or not relevant.The pieces that he has removed are well sourced and relevant.Here: [1]He is claiming that Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting is a non reputable source which is incorrect and the piece he deleted is actually from AFP press agency which is also a reputable source.(AFP, 3/11/06) He has also removed a piece from the Anti Defamation League saying they support Israel for no good reason as well. Owain the 1st ( talk) 16:02, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Owain, you see to be a new editor. I think you would do yourself some good if you familiarized yourself with Wikipedia policy, especially when editing in controversial areas. I can show you a few places to look, if you like. IronDuke 00:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Owain, one of your edits says: Instead they have moved to a more secular stance similar to Fatah.[7]. I found no reference to similarity with Fatah in that article. Could you please show where this is said, or revise that statement. Thank you. - BorisG ( talk) 14:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Should mention the declaration of jihad against the Lions Club and Rotary... AnonMoos ( talk) 05:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
In the section titled as "Relevance of the Charter in the 21st century". We have:
This article about 'Hamas'(political and armed wings) 'Covenant', this section is about its Relevance in 21st century. But, I can't find one single direct statement by a HAMAS(not some dude commenting on it) official concerning the 'Hamas Covenant' in it, as to being irrelevant or any specific changes that has been made to it. What I see is a lot of propagandizing and POV statements related to Hamas political platform - wrong article! this whole section should be heavily trimmed if not removed. -- PLNR ( talk) 05:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I made several changes to the section inline with what was discussed above. I kept for now the last section(I am not too certain about the sources maybe someone can come up with something relevant and it would mean change to the lead, so i'll wait for comments), but as it is IMO it should be also removed. Because Hamas political views doesn't effect the text of their Covenant(certainly the views of skeptical don't). No more than any views/statements/whatever on slavery effected the text of the US Constitution until the Thirteenth Amendment.
Also the statement about recognition, its indirect weasel statement addressing the demands put forth during the 2006 sanctions, not anything I can see in the charter articles. --
PLNR (
talk)
16:57, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Wickey-nl concerning this edit, you made massive change to the lead and content\source removal. Can you explain which statements not supported by the refs? because I couldn't find anything that couldn't be adjusted with minor wording changes and most of it was per source.-- PLNR ( talk) 18:24, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
The Covenant identifies Hamas as one of the wings of the Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. It promotes Islamic rules in every inch of Palestine, and the struggle against the Jews and Zionism
It seems pretty clear that the humanism and tolerance don't apply to the targets of eternal jihad (such as the Jew hiding behind the gharqad tree and the Lions Club and Rotary). The phrase "Under the wing of Islam" also means that non-Muslims can be "tolerated" only if they accept subordinate dhimmi status (i.e. having no political power and with lesser rights and paying more taxes than Muslims"). AnonMoos ( talk) 08:43, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Link 13 is dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.160.173.65 ( talk) 10:51, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
This section is the result of a WP:OR given it is sourced from the Hamas Covenant itself. It should be deleted. Pluto2012 ( talk) 08:28, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
The original Arabic text uses singular imperative grammar, thus "Muslim" should be used instead of "Muslims." Also, Abdullah is a name meaning "servant/slave of God," which in this context has a lexical rather than nominal meaning; thus, to write "Abdullah" deprives an English speaking reader of lexical information. Here is the Arabic text in question: يا مسلم يا عبد الله، هذا يهودي خلفي تعال فاقتله "O Muslim, O Servant of God, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." -- 21:08, 23 October 2014 68.191.148.45
In line with the many suggestions above to bring balance to the article, I have added a new section comparing the Hamas and Likud charters/platforms. I have read this article and also that on Likud, and since the Hamas charter is a topic of significant on-going interest and commentary, I was surprised that I could not find a comparison between the charters of these two opposing entities. The other option was to start an entirely new article devoted to such a comparison, but I feel that a 'merge' suggestion would soon be forthcoming if this were done. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 14:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Dubstep gen:1) Please respect Wiki protocol by engaging in "Talk" debate before embarking on major edits in articles of a contentious nature.
2) May I also point out that section blanking is illegitimate and represents vandalism [WP:VAN]. A repeat offence will be reported.
3) Regarding your one-liner edit "justification" - 'original research', the section is fully referenced with most of the text having been taken directly from WP:RS publications such as The Guardian, Haaretz, Israeli government web sites, The Jerusalem Post, etc., so your comment is a pure fabrication. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 15:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Tuylrnicracker666: Regarding your revision as of 23:48, 1 January 2015 and your stated justification for deleting on entire section: “Your edit has been rejected. Try to gain consensus on talk BEFORE adding editorial bias. Several problems here, including WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, WP:undue weight, an opinion column is not a reliable source to state facts.” Perhaps you should follow your own advice before becoming guilty of WP:VAN. You discussed ZERO in “Talk”. Unable to? Unwilling to? The problems that you say exist are all unsupported by any debate whatsoever, and provide no information which can be verified and/or refuted. Your justification is therefore empty. Many thanks to the editors who have agreed. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 18:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks for those contributions. I am still relatively new here and do not always understand what the best route is for providing encyclopaedic information. Regarding whether the Likud-Hamas charter comparison should be made ANYWHERE in Wiiki at all, I point to the high frequency of references to the Hamas charter as "proving" that the organization intends to wipe out Israel, irrespective of explanations by Mashal as to why the reference remains in the charter. The same denial of the right of the existence, in this case of a Palestinian state, exists in the earliest Likud platforms. I believe that these comparisons add value to the debate on the on-going conflict and offer a balanced comparison.
Are they all not WP:RS? Definitely not. References to the original documents setting out policy cannot possibly violate WP:RS. I ask if removing references to 'evolution of position' really constructively contributes to an understanding of either of these extremist groups and their ability and even willingness to change (in terms of WP:COMMON), simply because the citations are political analyses and not plain facts? After all, if there is a progressive change with time, is this not WP:COMMON evidence thereof? Instead I would suggest that Beinart's piece is a distinctly constructive contribution to our Wiki understanding. In a recent journal publication - [1] the author also emphasizes the Hamas changes with time.
If there is consensus that Likud has not changed with time, then I am disposed to edits to the sub-section to reflect that.
Whether the section belongs here - I too have my doubts, because it could well mean that the same section should be added to Likud, and that is clumsy to say the least. So I await more elegant suggestions from the experienced editors. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 16:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
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The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the organization's position on many issues at the time. It identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, [2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel. [3] [4] The Charter also asserts that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Zionists were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" [5] The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews of Israel, [6] presenting the Arab–Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, [5] adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom. [5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam. [7] The charter states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts. [8]
The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
A new version of the Charter is about to be released, or has just been released, in May 2017. See for example here: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876 . It omits some of the greatest hits of the old version, such as the jihad against the Lion's Club and Rotary, and the hadith of the Gharqad Tree, but it doesn't seem to be much of a peace document, unless you call basically endorsing the late 1970s "stages" theory a peaceful idea... AnonMoos ( talk) 03:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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Can someone add this source after "A new charter was issued by Hamas leader Khaled Mashal on 1 May 2017 in Doha"? -- 2001:8003:4023:D900:7C04:34E2:6179:8E12 ( talk) 04:04, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Who was the author of the 1988 Hamas Covenant? Who ratified it? Seems like everybody accepts the document as central to Hamas but how did it become so?-- Exjerusalemite ( talk) 16:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)