@
HaEr48: Thanks for the review. I'll be answering your questions and dealing with your possible suggestions. Btw, I think it would be much beneficial to take a look at the former review. Regards. --
Mhhosseintalk12:04, 24 June 2017 (UTC)reply
I’ve read the previous GA review. The reviewer raised important points and I believe the article as it stands now have sufficiently addressed these:
You have included the Motevaselian’s possible IRGC angle. I agree with you that saying “under diplomatic cover” without backing from source would be bordering OR
Regarding the use of Rai al-Youm. You’ve shown in the
WP:RSN thread that RSes like NY Times already use RaY as source, and the passage that reference the RaY article is explicitly attribute to RaY. I believe this is OK.
Other than these, I have other feedback:
Lead section: include the Motevaselian’s IRGC angle there too
Background: Add another paragraph about the perpetrator (Phalange), its relation with Israel (this is discussed in the sources including Washington Post and help explain why Israel got accused).
Also possibly explain how Phalange+Israel and Iran+iits allies are involved in the opposite sides of Lebanese civil war
“According to US and Israeli sources”: which sources, can we name them?
“Indeed, he had been chosen to lead … because of his success in crushing the 1979 Kurdish rebellion in Iran”: seems this is attributed to a statement from former IRGC chief Mohsen Rezai, not just US/Israeli source
“Kidnapping”: explain what they were doing before ending up in the checkpoint, e.g. “On [day], the party was travelling from Damascus to destination xxx”
“The abducted individuals were reportedly imprisoned “: state whose account this is, because the fate of the prisoners seem controversial
The fact that they are abducted by Phalange militia in al-Barbareh checkpoints seem to be supported by Western source (WashPo) too. Maybe cite it too to make the article less dependent on Iranian sources
“Israeli detention speculation” vs “Possible death”. Maybe make the title match, e.g. “Possible Israeli detention” vs “Possible death”
“He died in what Rai al-Youm claimed”: name the “he” because you named multiple men in the preceding text
I believe “Political response” should be its own section instead of a subsection of “Fate”
expand acronyms like IRNA, IRGC at their first mentions
“Israel agreed to give a report on the fate of the four Iranians “: So was this report given and what did it say? This paragraph leaves it hanging.
When first naming “Fars News Agency”, state that it is Iranian or Iran-based. Same for Press TV
Describe Ray al-Youm as “pan-Arabic daily” or something similar, as per NYTimes description
Reduce unnecessary quotation marks, especially when you’re just using a term in a neutral manner, e.g. "turning point", "an Israel-based prisoners' aid organization", “disappeared”, "a spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister."
There's still some more unnecessary quotation marks. I'll try to reduce them too.
“ It was believed that they were then buried at a site where construction later obliterated their graves”: shouldn’t this info be in the “Possible death” section instead? Also, state who believed this
“the case had turned into a political issue rather than a judicial one”: can you explain further how it turned into a political issue in lebanon?
“ In a statement, Iran expressed appreciation” mention year (or date) of this statement
Similarly for “Mohammad Fathali, Iranian Ambassador to Beirut, said that Iran”
“ Commemoration”: Does the source say that the event is regularly commemorated? Or does it just say that there was once a celebration in Iran/Beirut?
See
WP:SAY. Prefer to use neutral Said, stated, described, wrote, commented, and according to rather than “claimed”, “verified”
Rather than saying “XX had an interview with YY journalist ZZ and said so-and-so”, just say “XX said so-and-so”, unless the identity of the interviewer is crucial to the statement. This is more concise, to-the-point, and easier to follow.
"According to IRIB, Elie Hobeika's interview.. " This sentence is too long. Please shorten or split.
Also provide the full form of IRIB in the first mention.
I just found out that the Ronen Bergman book provided details not mentioned in the article, especiallly pp.157-159. The author interviewed Robert Hatem, described as "chief hit man" of the Phallange and claimed to be a witness. Among others, he described the torture of the four Iranians, him witnessing the shooting of one of four and his claim that he shot Motevaselian himself. I believe incorporating these accounts to the article would go a long way to balance the strong reliance on Iranian sources.
HaEr48: I was astonished by your claim, "the strong reliance on Iranian sources"! Would you mind checking the sources once again? However, I added (
[1],
[2]) the accounts by Ronen Bergman. --
Mhhosseintalk12:31, 3 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
HaEr48: Thanks for your efforts, suggestions and edits. I think there are only three unstruck comments remaining:
Naming "US and Israeli sources" which I dealt with in
this comment suggesting to use 'footnote'.
"state whose account this is, because the fate...". I've
responded to this comment.
'Commemoration section': I don't know what to do with this section because per sources (which I presented earlier here) the commemoration have been done almost every year during recent years.
@
Mhhossein: I consider the second point addressed. For point 1, the relevant policy is
WP:WEASEL (please read it). We shouldn't say attribute it to "US and Israeli sources" if the citation is combining several US and Israeli sources. Think of it this way, if we allow doing that, I can write some pretty controversial things, cherry-pick two or three US websites that say that, and then attribute the controversial thing to "US sources say..", which is kind of misleading to the reader. The Washington Post article attributes this to the US State Department, and another source is from the
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs maybe we can say, "according to the US State Department and the
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, ..." ? I believe the weight of these two organization is enough to make readers take it serously, rather than hiding behind the attribution "US and Israeli sources".
For point 3: the sources are about specific events, e.g. there was an commemoration in 2013, 2014, 2015 .... "The disappearance of the abducted diplomats is commemorated in Iran and Beirut" is a general statement that is synthesized from the previous specific (not general) facts. I suggest either (1) sticking to listing the specific events or (2) finding a source which specifically says that it's regularly commmemorated. 04:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@
HaEr48: I've now addressed both of your concerns. Regarding the commemoration, I could find a source explicitly saying that the commemoration is held every year. --
Mhhosseintalk07:28, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
I tried to add a line or two regarding the Israel-Phalange relations. There are concrete
evidences for this relation, however, most of the sources dealing with this issue are not necessarily on the abductions and hence
WP:OR is prohibiting. --
Mhhosseintalk07:47, 4 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Can we Ignore talking about how the opposite sides of the Lebanese civil war were formed since it's marginally related to this subject? --
Mhhosseintalk15:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)reply
I think so, unless it "US and Israeli sources" is the wording of an RS. Otherwise, combining multiple source and generalizing them as "US and Israeli sources" might constitute
WP:WEASEL.
HaEr48 (
talk)
04:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's a good idea to add the sources' names to the article body. How about using "some US and Israeli sources" and determine the sources via a footnote? --
Mhhosseintalk07:25, 1 August 2017 (UTC)reply
"Indeed, he had been chosen to lead … " was attributed to 'According to Mohsen Rezaee'. Thanks for being so accurate and precise. --
Mhhosseintalk15:20, 4 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Two other citations were added to the al-Barabarah checkpoint portion. (
[3] &
[4]).
The other sub-title was
altered to address the concern regarding the titles.
"He" was replaced by "Abu Hesham", as you suggested. "Political response" was changed into a level II subtitle. The acronyms were
expanded.
I found no material on whether the Israeli report was published or not. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mhhossein (
talk •
contribs)
Can you find out more? It's kind of a cliffhanger to read that Israel agreed to give a report in 2006, but we have no idea what it says.
HaEr48 (
talk)
04:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
The concern with the quotation was addressed. The remaining quotes are necessary in my viewpoint. What do you think on this?
Some sentences were moved to their appropriate sections. I checked the source for the sentence "It was believed... ." It was not determined who believed that and I found it best to attribute the whole sentence to the source.
It was explained why it has turned into a political issue.
@
HaEr48: Regarding this
, I can't say yes and that's why I have attributed that to the IRIB. The author of the source have reflected his understanding of the Hobeika's interview. --
Mhhosseintalk06:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: What does the source exactly say? It's weird to say that "the interview verifies", usually it's a person or an institution that verifies. Besides, since whether the handing over happened is under dispute, I don't think we should use "verify", because the word assumes that the assertion is true (see
WP:SAY).
HaEr48 (
talk)
06:58, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Regarding the commemoration I did not find sources saying that the incident is commemorated every year, but it's evident by looking at various sources. For example, see the
30th,
31st,
32nd,
33rd. --
Mhhosseintalk07:52, 2 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Regarding the interview, "XX had an interview with YY..." issue, I think mentioning the dates and the Interviewer magazine is important from historical viewpoint. However, I've split up the sentence to be easier to follow. What do you think? --
Mhhosseintalk18:46, 5 August 2017 (UTC)reply
I tried to add two lines to the background regarding the Lebanon civil war, but there is not indication that Iran was an ally in the civil war. Adding more materials requires committing
WP:OR.
@
HaEr48: Thanks for the review. I'll be answering your questions and dealing with your possible suggestions. Btw, I think it would be much beneficial to take a look at the former review. Regards. --
Mhhosseintalk12:04, 24 June 2017 (UTC)reply
I’ve read the previous GA review. The reviewer raised important points and I believe the article as it stands now have sufficiently addressed these:
You have included the Motevaselian’s possible IRGC angle. I agree with you that saying “under diplomatic cover” without backing from source would be bordering OR
Regarding the use of Rai al-Youm. You’ve shown in the
WP:RSN thread that RSes like NY Times already use RaY as source, and the passage that reference the RaY article is explicitly attribute to RaY. I believe this is OK.
Other than these, I have other feedback:
Lead section: include the Motevaselian’s IRGC angle there too
Background: Add another paragraph about the perpetrator (Phalange), its relation with Israel (this is discussed in the sources including Washington Post and help explain why Israel got accused).
Also possibly explain how Phalange+Israel and Iran+iits allies are involved in the opposite sides of Lebanese civil war
“According to US and Israeli sources”: which sources, can we name them?
“Indeed, he had been chosen to lead … because of his success in crushing the 1979 Kurdish rebellion in Iran”: seems this is attributed to a statement from former IRGC chief Mohsen Rezai, not just US/Israeli source
“Kidnapping”: explain what they were doing before ending up in the checkpoint, e.g. “On [day], the party was travelling from Damascus to destination xxx”
“The abducted individuals were reportedly imprisoned “: state whose account this is, because the fate of the prisoners seem controversial
The fact that they are abducted by Phalange militia in al-Barbareh checkpoints seem to be supported by Western source (WashPo) too. Maybe cite it too to make the article less dependent on Iranian sources
“Israeli detention speculation” vs “Possible death”. Maybe make the title match, e.g. “Possible Israeli detention” vs “Possible death”
“He died in what Rai al-Youm claimed”: name the “he” because you named multiple men in the preceding text
I believe “Political response” should be its own section instead of a subsection of “Fate”
expand acronyms like IRNA, IRGC at their first mentions
“Israel agreed to give a report on the fate of the four Iranians “: So was this report given and what did it say? This paragraph leaves it hanging.
When first naming “Fars News Agency”, state that it is Iranian or Iran-based. Same for Press TV
Describe Ray al-Youm as “pan-Arabic daily” or something similar, as per NYTimes description
Reduce unnecessary quotation marks, especially when you’re just using a term in a neutral manner, e.g. "turning point", "an Israel-based prisoners' aid organization", “disappeared”, "a spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister."
There's still some more unnecessary quotation marks. I'll try to reduce them too.
“ It was believed that they were then buried at a site where construction later obliterated their graves”: shouldn’t this info be in the “Possible death” section instead? Also, state who believed this
“the case had turned into a political issue rather than a judicial one”: can you explain further how it turned into a political issue in lebanon?
“ In a statement, Iran expressed appreciation” mention year (or date) of this statement
Similarly for “Mohammad Fathali, Iranian Ambassador to Beirut, said that Iran”
“ Commemoration”: Does the source say that the event is regularly commemorated? Or does it just say that there was once a celebration in Iran/Beirut?
See
WP:SAY. Prefer to use neutral Said, stated, described, wrote, commented, and according to rather than “claimed”, “verified”
Rather than saying “XX had an interview with YY journalist ZZ and said so-and-so”, just say “XX said so-and-so”, unless the identity of the interviewer is crucial to the statement. This is more concise, to-the-point, and easier to follow.
"According to IRIB, Elie Hobeika's interview.. " This sentence is too long. Please shorten or split.
Also provide the full form of IRIB in the first mention.
I just found out that the Ronen Bergman book provided details not mentioned in the article, especiallly pp.157-159. The author interviewed Robert Hatem, described as "chief hit man" of the Phallange and claimed to be a witness. Among others, he described the torture of the four Iranians, him witnessing the shooting of one of four and his claim that he shot Motevaselian himself. I believe incorporating these accounts to the article would go a long way to balance the strong reliance on Iranian sources.
HaEr48: I was astonished by your claim, "the strong reliance on Iranian sources"! Would you mind checking the sources once again? However, I added (
[1],
[2]) the accounts by Ronen Bergman. --
Mhhosseintalk12:31, 3 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
HaEr48: Thanks for your efforts, suggestions and edits. I think there are only three unstruck comments remaining:
Naming "US and Israeli sources" which I dealt with in
this comment suggesting to use 'footnote'.
"state whose account this is, because the fate...". I've
responded to this comment.
'Commemoration section': I don't know what to do with this section because per sources (which I presented earlier here) the commemoration have been done almost every year during recent years.
@
Mhhossein: I consider the second point addressed. For point 1, the relevant policy is
WP:WEASEL (please read it). We shouldn't say attribute it to "US and Israeli sources" if the citation is combining several US and Israeli sources. Think of it this way, if we allow doing that, I can write some pretty controversial things, cherry-pick two or three US websites that say that, and then attribute the controversial thing to "US sources say..", which is kind of misleading to the reader. The Washington Post article attributes this to the US State Department, and another source is from the
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs maybe we can say, "according to the US State Department and the
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, ..." ? I believe the weight of these two organization is enough to make readers take it serously, rather than hiding behind the attribution "US and Israeli sources".
For point 3: the sources are about specific events, e.g. there was an commemoration in 2013, 2014, 2015 .... "The disappearance of the abducted diplomats is commemorated in Iran and Beirut" is a general statement that is synthesized from the previous specific (not general) facts. I suggest either (1) sticking to listing the specific events or (2) finding a source which specifically says that it's regularly commmemorated. 04:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@
HaEr48: I've now addressed both of your concerns. Regarding the commemoration, I could find a source explicitly saying that the commemoration is held every year. --
Mhhosseintalk07:28, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
I tried to add a line or two regarding the Israel-Phalange relations. There are concrete
evidences for this relation, however, most of the sources dealing with this issue are not necessarily on the abductions and hence
WP:OR is prohibiting. --
Mhhosseintalk07:47, 4 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Can we Ignore talking about how the opposite sides of the Lebanese civil war were formed since it's marginally related to this subject? --
Mhhosseintalk15:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)reply
I think so, unless it "US and Israeli sources" is the wording of an RS. Otherwise, combining multiple source and generalizing them as "US and Israeli sources" might constitute
WP:WEASEL.
HaEr48 (
talk)
04:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's a good idea to add the sources' names to the article body. How about using "some US and Israeli sources" and determine the sources via a footnote? --
Mhhosseintalk07:25, 1 August 2017 (UTC)reply
"Indeed, he had been chosen to lead … " was attributed to 'According to Mohsen Rezaee'. Thanks for being so accurate and precise. --
Mhhosseintalk15:20, 4 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Two other citations were added to the al-Barabarah checkpoint portion. (
[3] &
[4]).
The other sub-title was
altered to address the concern regarding the titles.
"He" was replaced by "Abu Hesham", as you suggested. "Political response" was changed into a level II subtitle. The acronyms were
expanded.
I found no material on whether the Israeli report was published or not. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mhhossein (
talk •
contribs)
Can you find out more? It's kind of a cliffhanger to read that Israel agreed to give a report in 2006, but we have no idea what it says.
HaEr48 (
talk)
04:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
The concern with the quotation was addressed. The remaining quotes are necessary in my viewpoint. What do you think on this?
Some sentences were moved to their appropriate sections. I checked the source for the sentence "It was believed... ." It was not determined who believed that and I found it best to attribute the whole sentence to the source.
It was explained why it has turned into a political issue.
@
HaEr48: Regarding this
, I can't say yes and that's why I have attributed that to the IRIB. The author of the source have reflected his understanding of the Hobeika's interview. --
Mhhosseintalk06:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: What does the source exactly say? It's weird to say that "the interview verifies", usually it's a person or an institution that verifies. Besides, since whether the handing over happened is under dispute, I don't think we should use "verify", because the word assumes that the assertion is true (see
WP:SAY).
HaEr48 (
talk)
06:58, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Regarding the commemoration I did not find sources saying that the incident is commemorated every year, but it's evident by looking at various sources. For example, see the
30th,
31st,
32nd,
33rd. --
Mhhosseintalk07:52, 2 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Regarding the interview, "XX had an interview with YY..." issue, I think mentioning the dates and the Interviewer magazine is important from historical viewpoint. However, I've split up the sentence to be easier to follow. What do you think? --
Mhhosseintalk18:46, 5 August 2017 (UTC)reply
I tried to add two lines to the background regarding the Lebanon civil war, but there is not indication that Iran was an ally in the civil war. Adding more materials requires committing
WP:OR.