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Talk:1977 Moscow bombings/Archive
A significant part of text was based on the following source: [1] This is a Russian language newspaper " Commune (socialism) at Volga"(Газета "Волжская Коммуна"), something I have never heard about. It is signed by Aleksey Stepanov (Алексей СТЕПАНОВ) - who is he?. I looked through a number of sources but did not find anything about the bomb at " Kursky Rail Terminal". This must be supported by better sources I think. Biophys ( talk) 00:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The only doubtful thing here is dissemination of conspiracy theories having no proof whatsoever. Even 9/11 "Jews did it" or "fake Moon landing" fans have more "proofs" to support their fantastic claims. Here we have just a bunch of opinions and no coherent "alternative story" why KGB would start blowing up bombs in Moscow, especially so close to 1980 Olympics. What motives could they have - to set up absolutely marginal group of anti-Semitic nut, that Zatykian was? Get real. M0RD00R ( talk) 08:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Here the text about motivation from Russian wikipedia. This text was archived by M0RD00R today.
Многие диссиденты считали взрыв провокацией КГБ. Диссиденты, в частности Глеб Павловский, обращали внимание на появившиеся сразу же после взрыва в западной прессе утверждения, исходившие от просоветского журналиста Виктора Луи со ссылкой на официальные советские источники, о возможной причастности к взрыву диссидентов-правозащитников. По оценке А. Д. Сахарова, «корреспонденция Виктора Луи явно была пробным шаром, прощупыванием реакции. За ней, при отсутствии отпора, мог последовать удар по диссидентам. Силу его заранее предугадать было нельзя. Кроме того, нельзя было исключать, что сам взрыв был провокацией, быть может, имеющей, а, быть может, и не имеющей прямого отношения к инакомыслящим».
«Хроника текущих событий» отмечала, что сразу же после взрыва многие видные диссиденты были допрошены в связи с ним и от них требовали доказательств своей непричастности к взрыву; в «вопросниках», составленных следствием и направленных осужденным диссидентам, просматривалась попытка связать НОП с Хельсинкской группой [3] [4].
11 января 1977 А.Сахаров узнал из радиопередачи о статье Виктора Луи. Встревоженный возможным обвинением диссидентов в терроризме, он на следующий день обнародовал «Обращение к мировой общественности», где сообщал все, что ему было известно об обстоятельствах взрыва и о статье Виктора Луи, напомнил о ненасильственных принципах диссидентов и о событиях, которые он расценивал как беззаконные действия властей, в частности убийствах ряда диссидентов, в которых подозревалось КГБ. В конце «Обращения» он писал:
"Я не могу избавиться от ощущения, что взрыв в московском метро и трагическая гибель людей — это новая и самая опасная за последние годы провокация репрессивных органов. Именно это ощущение и связанные с ним опасения, что эта провокация может привести к изменению всего внутреннего климата страны, явились побудительной причиной для написания этой статьи. Я был бы очень рад, если бы мои мысли оказались неверными. Во всяком случае, я хотел бы надеяться, что уголовные преступления репрессивных органов — это не государственная, санкционированная свыше новая политика подавления и дискредитации инакомыслящих, создания против них «атмосферы народного гнева», а пока только преступная авантюра определенных кругов репрессивных органов, не способных к честной борьбе идей и рвущихся к власти и влиянию. Я призываю мировую общественность потребовать гласного расследования причин взрыва в московском метро 8 января с привлечением к участию в следствии иностранных экспертов и юристов…". [5]
I see two problems in the article:
1. Too much opinions are presented in the first section. Actually there are two types of opinions:1. About the investigation results - presented by the official version. 2. About the secrecy of the investigation and the trial - presented by Moscow Helsinki group statement. Nekrich's opinion is about investigation itself but he didn't conduct independent investigation so he is not RS. All he wrote in his book was about witnesses who confirmed terrorists' alibi. We can mention this information later but according to WP:WEIGHT we should leave only the major opinions summarizing the article. They are the official version and Moscow Helsinki Group statement which represents most of the dissidents. It also represents Sakharov's opinion about the case (see p.2)
2. Sakharov's position is not as simple as it is described in the article. This is the quotation from his memoires where he describes his position as "indefenite":
Известные мне инакомыслящие очень по-разному относятся к делу Затикяна, Багдасаряна и Степаняна. Некоторые убеждены, что все дело – сплошная фальсификация КГБ: первоначально – с целью расправы над всеми инакомыслящими или с какой-то иной провокационной целью; потом, когда вышла осечка, – с целью расправы над НОП. Сторонники этой теории считают, что все вещественные доказательства сфабрикованы КГБ, что Багдасарян и Степанян сотрудничали с КГБ либо только на стадии следствия, либо даже на стадии осуществления преступления, что им было обещано сохранить жизнь и именно поэтому их фамилии не упоминаются в печати. Возможно, что потом договоренность была нарушена той или иной стороной. Суда, в соответствии со свидетельством Степаняна, не было (поэтому никто не может назвать даты суда и не были приглашены родственники). Другие мои друзья считают, что Затикян и его товарищи – типичные националисты, подобно баскам, ИРА и т. п., и что нет ничего неожиданного в том, что кто-то в СССР стал террористом. Вина обвиняемых неопровержимо доказана, отсутствие гласности – в традиции политических процессов в СССР, а в данном случае КГБ мог опасаться вызвать цепную реакцию терроризма. Что касается меня, то я вижу слабые места в обеих крайних позициях. Моя позиция – промежуточная, а точней – неопределенная. Я по-прежнему считаю правильным свое письмо Брежневу, так как считаю, что без подлинной гласности подобное дело не может быть объективно рассмотрено, тем более что альтернативным обвинителем является КГБ.
3. I see no need to remove Category:Terrorist attacks attributed to Armenian militant groups since the official version attributes the terrorist attack to an Armenian militant group. -- Quantum666 ( talk) 12:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
1. "Dissidents known to me had very much different concerns to the case of Zatikian, Bagdasaryan and Stepanyan. Some of them are convinced, that all the case is a continuous falsification by KGB: originally – with the objective of punishment of all dissidents or with any other provocative objective; then, when there was a misfire, – with objective of punishment of NUP (National United Party). Supporters of this theory consider, that all material evidences are forged by KGB, that Bagdasarian and Stepanyan cooperated with KGB at the stage of investigation, or even at the stage of realization of the crime, that it was promised to them to keep their lifes and for this reason their surnames are not mentioned in press. Probably then the arrangement has been broken by one of the sides. According to Stepanyan's testifications, there was not a trial (therefore noone can mark dates of trial and relatives have not been invited). Other my friends consider, that Zatikian and his comrades are typical nationalists, similarly to Basques, IRA etc., and there is nothing unexpected that someone in the USSR became a terrorist. The accused guilt is incontestably proved, absence of publicity is in tradition of political processes in the USSR, and in this case KGB could be afraid to cause chain reaction of terrorism. As to me I see weak points in both extreme positions. My position is intermediate, or more precise – uncertain. I still consider the letter to Brezhnev as proper, as I consider, that without original publicity similar cases cannot be objectively considered, especially as the alternative accuser is KGB." (Andrei Sakharov, Memoires (in Russian, Sakharov Archive online) [15] Andranikpasha ( talk) 07:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
2. From the Sakharov's letter to Leonid Brezhnev: "There are strong reasons to afraid, that in this case a miscarriage of justice or deliberate falsification takes place. Zatikian was not in Moscow in the moment of explosion in the metro – many witnesses can confirm his alibi; investigation has not shown any interest in finding-out of this and other important circumstances. The trial (without any necessity) was completely closed and confidential, even relatives knew nothing about its carrying out. Such trial on which the principle of publicity is completely broken, cannot establish the truth..." Хорошо забытое старое (in Russian), Official site of "Memorial" [16] Andranikpasha ( talk) 07:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
3. Sakharov's eхplanations about his statement concerning the explosions: "I refuse to sign this document. I should first clarify what you said about my last statement. There is no direct charge of the KGB in the bombing in the Moscow subway, but I am expressing some concerns (feelings as I have written). In the statement I have expressed the hope that the crime was not sanctioned by the government. But I am conscious of an acute nature of my statements and I do not regret it. Acute situations require sharp tools. If as a result of my statement an objective investigation is carried out and the culprits are found, and the innocent don’t suffer, if the provocation against the dissidents is not implemented, I will feel great satisfaction. I have now good reason to fear. This is a provocative article of Victor Louis in the London Evening News, that has not yet been retracted by the newspaper. This is questioning me about the location of persons whose innocence is clear for me at the moment of the explosion. That many killings in recent months in which we can assume part of KGB and which have not been investigated. I will mention two of them - the murder of poet Konstantin Bogatyrev and lawyer Eugene Brunow. You did not say anything about these killings, occupying an important place in my arguments." Official site of "Memorial" [17] -- Quantum666 ( talk) 07:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
4. "I told on the phone to foreign correspondents and agencies about the letter to Brezhnev. After an hour or two phone calls started in our apartment. The callers usually told that they were present at the trial of terrorists, whom I advocate, and expressed their outrage about my position protecting the killers. The form in which it was said, was different in different calls: sometimes it was just regret about my ignorance and naivete, sometimes ironic, mock (psychologically very strange in this situation), and sometimes - an angry disturbance, threatening to kill me. I tried to ask the callers, pretending to have attended in the court, but most of the questions remained unanswered (for example, when was the court carried out, under whose chairmanship was it conducted).
(Before that I haven’t considered such a possibility of complicity, as well as Yula.)" (Andrei Sakharov, Memoires (in Russian, Sakharov Archive online) [18] -- Quantum666 ( talk) 08:05, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 21:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Under the section official investigation it says " this false trail was dropped by KGB operatives.".
I think the author meant to say trial instead of trail.
2.103.237.155 ( talk) 00:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
There was very little information about the bombings at the time (see Chronicle of Current Events, 44.15).
Victor Louis was quick to imply some connection to human rights activists (dissidents) in an article in the London Evening News on 10 January 1977. The actual toll of dead and injured was not released, however, until over two years later after the trial and execution of the three accused men (see Stepanov article in Volzhskaya kommuna).
The police do not even investigate run-of-the-mill murders in the USSR or today. That is the work of the Procurator's Office and in this case the KGB were in charge. John Crowfoot ( talk) 16:42, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
A fact from 1977 Moscow bombings appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 19 January 2009, and was viewed approximately 2,365 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 8, 2014, January 8, 2017, January 8, 2019, and January 8, 2024. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Talk:1977 Moscow bombings/Archive
A significant part of text was based on the following source: [1] This is a Russian language newspaper " Commune (socialism) at Volga"(Газета "Волжская Коммуна"), something I have never heard about. It is signed by Aleksey Stepanov (Алексей СТЕПАНОВ) - who is he?. I looked through a number of sources but did not find anything about the bomb at " Kursky Rail Terminal". This must be supported by better sources I think. Biophys ( talk) 00:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The only doubtful thing here is dissemination of conspiracy theories having no proof whatsoever. Even 9/11 "Jews did it" or "fake Moon landing" fans have more "proofs" to support their fantastic claims. Here we have just a bunch of opinions and no coherent "alternative story" why KGB would start blowing up bombs in Moscow, especially so close to 1980 Olympics. What motives could they have - to set up absolutely marginal group of anti-Semitic nut, that Zatykian was? Get real. M0RD00R ( talk) 08:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Here the text about motivation from Russian wikipedia. This text was archived by M0RD00R today.
Многие диссиденты считали взрыв провокацией КГБ. Диссиденты, в частности Глеб Павловский, обращали внимание на появившиеся сразу же после взрыва в западной прессе утверждения, исходившие от просоветского журналиста Виктора Луи со ссылкой на официальные советские источники, о возможной причастности к взрыву диссидентов-правозащитников. По оценке А. Д. Сахарова, «корреспонденция Виктора Луи явно была пробным шаром, прощупыванием реакции. За ней, при отсутствии отпора, мог последовать удар по диссидентам. Силу его заранее предугадать было нельзя. Кроме того, нельзя было исключать, что сам взрыв был провокацией, быть может, имеющей, а, быть может, и не имеющей прямого отношения к инакомыслящим».
«Хроника текущих событий» отмечала, что сразу же после взрыва многие видные диссиденты были допрошены в связи с ним и от них требовали доказательств своей непричастности к взрыву; в «вопросниках», составленных следствием и направленных осужденным диссидентам, просматривалась попытка связать НОП с Хельсинкской группой [3] [4].
11 января 1977 А.Сахаров узнал из радиопередачи о статье Виктора Луи. Встревоженный возможным обвинением диссидентов в терроризме, он на следующий день обнародовал «Обращение к мировой общественности», где сообщал все, что ему было известно об обстоятельствах взрыва и о статье Виктора Луи, напомнил о ненасильственных принципах диссидентов и о событиях, которые он расценивал как беззаконные действия властей, в частности убийствах ряда диссидентов, в которых подозревалось КГБ. В конце «Обращения» он писал:
"Я не могу избавиться от ощущения, что взрыв в московском метро и трагическая гибель людей — это новая и самая опасная за последние годы провокация репрессивных органов. Именно это ощущение и связанные с ним опасения, что эта провокация может привести к изменению всего внутреннего климата страны, явились побудительной причиной для написания этой статьи. Я был бы очень рад, если бы мои мысли оказались неверными. Во всяком случае, я хотел бы надеяться, что уголовные преступления репрессивных органов — это не государственная, санкционированная свыше новая политика подавления и дискредитации инакомыслящих, создания против них «атмосферы народного гнева», а пока только преступная авантюра определенных кругов репрессивных органов, не способных к честной борьбе идей и рвущихся к власти и влиянию. Я призываю мировую общественность потребовать гласного расследования причин взрыва в московском метро 8 января с привлечением к участию в следствии иностранных экспертов и юристов…". [5]
I see two problems in the article:
1. Too much opinions are presented in the first section. Actually there are two types of opinions:1. About the investigation results - presented by the official version. 2. About the secrecy of the investigation and the trial - presented by Moscow Helsinki group statement. Nekrich's opinion is about investigation itself but he didn't conduct independent investigation so he is not RS. All he wrote in his book was about witnesses who confirmed terrorists' alibi. We can mention this information later but according to WP:WEIGHT we should leave only the major opinions summarizing the article. They are the official version and Moscow Helsinki Group statement which represents most of the dissidents. It also represents Sakharov's opinion about the case (see p.2)
2. Sakharov's position is not as simple as it is described in the article. This is the quotation from his memoires where he describes his position as "indefenite":
Известные мне инакомыслящие очень по-разному относятся к делу Затикяна, Багдасаряна и Степаняна. Некоторые убеждены, что все дело – сплошная фальсификация КГБ: первоначально – с целью расправы над всеми инакомыслящими или с какой-то иной провокационной целью; потом, когда вышла осечка, – с целью расправы над НОП. Сторонники этой теории считают, что все вещественные доказательства сфабрикованы КГБ, что Багдасарян и Степанян сотрудничали с КГБ либо только на стадии следствия, либо даже на стадии осуществления преступления, что им было обещано сохранить жизнь и именно поэтому их фамилии не упоминаются в печати. Возможно, что потом договоренность была нарушена той или иной стороной. Суда, в соответствии со свидетельством Степаняна, не было (поэтому никто не может назвать даты суда и не были приглашены родственники). Другие мои друзья считают, что Затикян и его товарищи – типичные националисты, подобно баскам, ИРА и т. п., и что нет ничего неожиданного в том, что кто-то в СССР стал террористом. Вина обвиняемых неопровержимо доказана, отсутствие гласности – в традиции политических процессов в СССР, а в данном случае КГБ мог опасаться вызвать цепную реакцию терроризма. Что касается меня, то я вижу слабые места в обеих крайних позициях. Моя позиция – промежуточная, а точней – неопределенная. Я по-прежнему считаю правильным свое письмо Брежневу, так как считаю, что без подлинной гласности подобное дело не может быть объективно рассмотрено, тем более что альтернативным обвинителем является КГБ.
3. I see no need to remove Category:Terrorist attacks attributed to Armenian militant groups since the official version attributes the terrorist attack to an Armenian militant group. -- Quantum666 ( talk) 12:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
1. "Dissidents known to me had very much different concerns to the case of Zatikian, Bagdasaryan and Stepanyan. Some of them are convinced, that all the case is a continuous falsification by KGB: originally – with the objective of punishment of all dissidents or with any other provocative objective; then, when there was a misfire, – with objective of punishment of NUP (National United Party). Supporters of this theory consider, that all material evidences are forged by KGB, that Bagdasarian and Stepanyan cooperated with KGB at the stage of investigation, or even at the stage of realization of the crime, that it was promised to them to keep their lifes and for this reason their surnames are not mentioned in press. Probably then the arrangement has been broken by one of the sides. According to Stepanyan's testifications, there was not a trial (therefore noone can mark dates of trial and relatives have not been invited). Other my friends consider, that Zatikian and his comrades are typical nationalists, similarly to Basques, IRA etc., and there is nothing unexpected that someone in the USSR became a terrorist. The accused guilt is incontestably proved, absence of publicity is in tradition of political processes in the USSR, and in this case KGB could be afraid to cause chain reaction of terrorism. As to me I see weak points in both extreme positions. My position is intermediate, or more precise – uncertain. I still consider the letter to Brezhnev as proper, as I consider, that without original publicity similar cases cannot be objectively considered, especially as the alternative accuser is KGB." (Andrei Sakharov, Memoires (in Russian, Sakharov Archive online) [15] Andranikpasha ( talk) 07:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
2. From the Sakharov's letter to Leonid Brezhnev: "There are strong reasons to afraid, that in this case a miscarriage of justice or deliberate falsification takes place. Zatikian was not in Moscow in the moment of explosion in the metro – many witnesses can confirm his alibi; investigation has not shown any interest in finding-out of this and other important circumstances. The trial (without any necessity) was completely closed and confidential, even relatives knew nothing about its carrying out. Such trial on which the principle of publicity is completely broken, cannot establish the truth..." Хорошо забытое старое (in Russian), Official site of "Memorial" [16] Andranikpasha ( talk) 07:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
3. Sakharov's eхplanations about his statement concerning the explosions: "I refuse to sign this document. I should first clarify what you said about my last statement. There is no direct charge of the KGB in the bombing in the Moscow subway, but I am expressing some concerns (feelings as I have written). In the statement I have expressed the hope that the crime was not sanctioned by the government. But I am conscious of an acute nature of my statements and I do not regret it. Acute situations require sharp tools. If as a result of my statement an objective investigation is carried out and the culprits are found, and the innocent don’t suffer, if the provocation against the dissidents is not implemented, I will feel great satisfaction. I have now good reason to fear. This is a provocative article of Victor Louis in the London Evening News, that has not yet been retracted by the newspaper. This is questioning me about the location of persons whose innocence is clear for me at the moment of the explosion. That many killings in recent months in which we can assume part of KGB and which have not been investigated. I will mention two of them - the murder of poet Konstantin Bogatyrev and lawyer Eugene Brunow. You did not say anything about these killings, occupying an important place in my arguments." Official site of "Memorial" [17] -- Quantum666 ( talk) 07:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
4. "I told on the phone to foreign correspondents and agencies about the letter to Brezhnev. After an hour or two phone calls started in our apartment. The callers usually told that they were present at the trial of terrorists, whom I advocate, and expressed their outrage about my position protecting the killers. The form in which it was said, was different in different calls: sometimes it was just regret about my ignorance and naivete, sometimes ironic, mock (psychologically very strange in this situation), and sometimes - an angry disturbance, threatening to kill me. I tried to ask the callers, pretending to have attended in the court, but most of the questions remained unanswered (for example, when was the court carried out, under whose chairmanship was it conducted).
(Before that I haven’t considered such a possibility of complicity, as well as Yula.)" (Andrei Sakharov, Memoires (in Russian, Sakharov Archive online) [18] -- Quantum666 ( talk) 08:05, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 21:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Under the section official investigation it says " this false trail was dropped by KGB operatives.".
I think the author meant to say trial instead of trail.
2.103.237.155 ( talk) 00:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
There was very little information about the bombings at the time (see Chronicle of Current Events, 44.15).
Victor Louis was quick to imply some connection to human rights activists (dissidents) in an article in the London Evening News on 10 January 1977. The actual toll of dead and injured was not released, however, until over two years later after the trial and execution of the three accused men (see Stepanov article in Volzhskaya kommuna).
The police do not even investigate run-of-the-mill murders in the USSR or today. That is the work of the Procurator's Office and in this case the KGB were in charge. John Crowfoot ( talk) 16:42, 27 June 2019 (UTC)