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I'd also look at cutting down on the "background" section as it seems to me that it's a bit too long in proportion to the coverage of the protest itself. ( t · c) buidhe 03:38, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Oops, sorry, this slipped under radar. I've replied to few issues above, and I'll have a look at the rest shortly.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 19:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Buidhe ( talk · contribs) 07:15, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
A few years ago I copyedited the article. I've looked at it again and have the following comments:
Thank you for taking time to take a look at the article. I have made some edits to address your concerns. Could you please review them? -- Tomobe03 ( talk) 23:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I do not want to step on anyone's toes and so I will merely suggest an addition, rather than make it. How about adding the names of the December Victims? Among them were:
Slavko Šćukanec, Sentmartoni, Miroslav Svoboda, Viktor Kolombar, Miloš Mrše, Mato Gašparović, Mijo Staničer, Stjepan Jureša, Josip Lupinski, Ferdo Veršec, Nikola Ivša, Dragutin Kostelac, Andro Martinko and Antun Tašner-Juričić.
Source: Dr. Rudolf Horvat, Hrvatska na mučilištu, Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 1992., (prijetisak), ISBN 86-03-00771-3, page. 54. ZidarZ ( talk) 10:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Is it OK to add info about the Angjelinović family?
Prominent family The Angjelinović family is well-known and important in the political and public life of Croatia in the first half of the 20th century. From her came the lawyer and publicist Berislav (a vocal fighter and known police beater, op.a.), the writer Danko (grandfather of the Croatian politician Vesna Pusić), the doctor Goroslava and the poet Smiljana.
Source: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budislav_Grga_Angjelinović
Vesna Pusić - her mother Višnja, was born into Anđelinović family - she was the niece of Grgo Budislav Anđelinović. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Pusić ZidarZ ( talk) 13:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
In Croatian history this event is known as a POBUNA which means REVOLT. The word revolt aligns more with the nature of the event than does "protest". I think using the word revolt would be better than protest. Using the word protest minimizes the meaning of why the event happened. ZidarZ ( talk) 13:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The Croatian language article has interesting details that should be added to the English language article. Specifically what was said after the massacre.
Angjelinović: "According to my duty, I thought I should be the first to start, and I am proud of those bloody hands."
Translation: Zagreb magazine "Riječ", no. 98. April 30, 1921, brings the speech of Dr. Grga Budislav Angjelinović in the Belgrade Assembly from April 26, 1921, in which he harshly attacked the Croatian right-wing politics, to which he belonged until recently, for reluctantly looking at the united Kingdom of SHS and trying to provoke new riots in Croatia. "If Croatia were to become Ireland one day, we will be gendarmes again," said Angjelinović. At that, a voice from the audience: "You have experience in that." Upon this, Dr. Angjelinović spoke about his actions in Zagreb and repeated in front of the members of the parliament what he had done in Zagreb: "According to my duty, I thought I should be the first to start, and I am proud of those bloody hands," said Dr. Grga Budislav. Angjelinović after the massacre of Croatian protesters against the establishment of Yugoslavia. Although he knew that it was only a demonstration, Angjelinović consciously wanted to spill blood so that he could brag in Belgrade that he pacified Zagreb.
Source: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budislav_Grga_Angjelinović ZidarZ ( talk) 13:11, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
About why the soldiers revolted, this article says: "shouting "Long live the republic!", "Long live Radić!", "Down with King Peter!", "Down with the dynasty!", "Long live the peasant party!", "Down with militarism!", "Long live Croatian republic!", and "Long live Bolshevik republic!". but But according to "Hrvatska na mučilištu" by Rudolf Horvat, 1942, the crowd shouted "Dolje srpska dinastija! Dolje kralj Petar! Dolje srpski militarizam!"" (translated): Along the way, great popular indignation against Serbian provocation was expressed with shouts: "Down with the Serbian dynasty ! Down with King Peter! Down with Serbian militarism!", and they shouted support for a free Croatia, Stjepan Radic and the Croatian republic.
https://archive.org/details/hrvatska_na_mucilistu-rudolf_horvat/page/52/mode/2up ZidarZ ( talk) 13:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The article says that the crowd shouted "Long live Bolshevik republic!". There is no reference given for that and I have never seen this written anywhere else. This Wikipedia article is the only place this is mentioned. ZidarZ ( talk) 15:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The article says "In the final days of the World War I, on 5–6 October 1918, political parties representing Croats, Slovenes, and Serbs living in Austria-Hungary organised the Zagreb-based National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs to achieve independence from the empire."
Who were the "political parties" representing Croatian interests? Were these democratically elected representatives or were they ZidarZ ( talk) 18:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The term "far-right" is used. Is it proper to use a present day term that has morphed in meaning to describe events in 1918? The words patriotic or nationalist are more appropriate. ZidarZ ( talk) 18:33, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
This article has the statement "shouting "Long live the republic!", "Long live Radić!", "Down with King Peter!", "Down with the dynasty!", "Long live the peasant party!", "Down with militarism!", "Long live Croatian republic!", and "Long live Bolshevik republic!".
This is NOT the proper translation of what is said in old sources.
I improved the section with "and shouting "Dolje srpska dinastija! Dolje kralj Petar! Dolje srpski militarizam!" ("Down with the Serbian dynasty ! Down with King Peter! Down with Serbian militarism!". They also shouted their desire for a free Croatia, and a long life for Stjepan Radić and the Croatian republic."
With the reference to Horvat, Rudolf (1942). Hrvatska na mučilištu (Croatia in the torture chamber) (in Croatian) (First ed.). Zagreb: Kulturno-Historijsko Društvo "Hrvatski Rodoljub". p. 53.
User "Buidhe" has decided to undo the improvement. Why would an improvement that is properly referenced be undone?
If "fake history" is preferred here then where is the credibility in the article the authors and other "revisers"? ZidarZ ( talk) 19:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The article makes it appear that only soldiers were protesting and that it was some sort of armed uprising. This is not true.
I added " Many civilians, including women and high school students also joined the soldiers". Why?
User "Duidhe" undid my addition. Why?
Croatian historian Rudolf Horvat said " Zato u jutro provale sveučilišni đaci i drugi ljudi u zagrebačke srednje škole, gdje silom prekinuše obuku, te gimnazijalce i realce odvedoše na ulice, da u povorci manifestiraju gradom za novu državu."
Translation: That's why university students and other people broke into Zagreb's high schools in the morning, where they forcibly stopped training, and took the high school students and "realce" (?) to the streets, to demonstrate in a procession through the city for a new state.
Note: High school students = children
When you look at a picture of the event, you can clearly see high school boys and young men. All people in the picture are unarmed civilians.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prosvjedi_5_prosinca_1918_MGZ_080209.jpg ZidarZ ( talk) 19:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
There are questions about why the "protest" happened.
The root cause is the formation of the Kingdom of SHS. The critical aspect is whether or not the formation of the kingdom was legitimate. If the kingdom was formed not by a democratic process but by internal special interest groups and manipulation by foreign powers, was the formation of the kingdom legitimate? If it was not legitimate, then we can ask if the people, the wronged parties, were justified in protesting?
At present, the "vibe" on this article and the Kingdom of SHS article seems to be that the formation was legitimate and therefore the Croatian people are presented as the "bad guys".
I wonder how much of a role Ilija Garašanin and the Načertanije played and if that can help us determine who the victims and victimizers were. ZidarZ ( talk) 01:43, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
I am confused. In Croatian, the event is known as "Prosinačke žrtve 5. prosinca 1918." which translated to "December Sacrifices/Victims of December 5, 1918". In Serbian, the event is known as "decembarske žrtve" also December Victims, as it is also in Slovenia.
Why is the English title "1918 protest in Zagreb"? There is a big difference between the Croatian and English titles. To me, it seems like an attempt at the minimization of the suffering of the Croatian people. The only place online that the event is called "1918 protest in Zagreb" is on Wikipedia. ZidarZ ( talk) 12:53, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1918 protest in Zagreb article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
1918 protest in Zagreb has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on December 5, 2023. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'd also look at cutting down on the "background" section as it seems to me that it's a bit too long in proportion to the coverage of the protest itself. ( t · c) buidhe 03:38, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Oops, sorry, this slipped under radar. I've replied to few issues above, and I'll have a look at the rest shortly.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 19:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Buidhe ( talk · contribs) 07:15, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
A few years ago I copyedited the article. I've looked at it again and have the following comments:
Thank you for taking time to take a look at the article. I have made some edits to address your concerns. Could you please review them? -- Tomobe03 ( talk) 23:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I do not want to step on anyone's toes and so I will merely suggest an addition, rather than make it. How about adding the names of the December Victims? Among them were:
Slavko Šćukanec, Sentmartoni, Miroslav Svoboda, Viktor Kolombar, Miloš Mrše, Mato Gašparović, Mijo Staničer, Stjepan Jureša, Josip Lupinski, Ferdo Veršec, Nikola Ivša, Dragutin Kostelac, Andro Martinko and Antun Tašner-Juričić.
Source: Dr. Rudolf Horvat, Hrvatska na mučilištu, Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 1992., (prijetisak), ISBN 86-03-00771-3, page. 54. ZidarZ ( talk) 10:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Is it OK to add info about the Angjelinović family?
Prominent family The Angjelinović family is well-known and important in the political and public life of Croatia in the first half of the 20th century. From her came the lawyer and publicist Berislav (a vocal fighter and known police beater, op.a.), the writer Danko (grandfather of the Croatian politician Vesna Pusić), the doctor Goroslava and the poet Smiljana.
Source: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budislav_Grga_Angjelinović
Vesna Pusić - her mother Višnja, was born into Anđelinović family - she was the niece of Grgo Budislav Anđelinović. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Pusić ZidarZ ( talk) 13:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
In Croatian history this event is known as a POBUNA which means REVOLT. The word revolt aligns more with the nature of the event than does "protest". I think using the word revolt would be better than protest. Using the word protest minimizes the meaning of why the event happened. ZidarZ ( talk) 13:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The Croatian language article has interesting details that should be added to the English language article. Specifically what was said after the massacre.
Angjelinović: "According to my duty, I thought I should be the first to start, and I am proud of those bloody hands."
Translation: Zagreb magazine "Riječ", no. 98. April 30, 1921, brings the speech of Dr. Grga Budislav Angjelinović in the Belgrade Assembly from April 26, 1921, in which he harshly attacked the Croatian right-wing politics, to which he belonged until recently, for reluctantly looking at the united Kingdom of SHS and trying to provoke new riots in Croatia. "If Croatia were to become Ireland one day, we will be gendarmes again," said Angjelinović. At that, a voice from the audience: "You have experience in that." Upon this, Dr. Angjelinović spoke about his actions in Zagreb and repeated in front of the members of the parliament what he had done in Zagreb: "According to my duty, I thought I should be the first to start, and I am proud of those bloody hands," said Dr. Grga Budislav. Angjelinović after the massacre of Croatian protesters against the establishment of Yugoslavia. Although he knew that it was only a demonstration, Angjelinović consciously wanted to spill blood so that he could brag in Belgrade that he pacified Zagreb.
Source: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budislav_Grga_Angjelinović ZidarZ ( talk) 13:11, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
About why the soldiers revolted, this article says: "shouting "Long live the republic!", "Long live Radić!", "Down with King Peter!", "Down with the dynasty!", "Long live the peasant party!", "Down with militarism!", "Long live Croatian republic!", and "Long live Bolshevik republic!". but But according to "Hrvatska na mučilištu" by Rudolf Horvat, 1942, the crowd shouted "Dolje srpska dinastija! Dolje kralj Petar! Dolje srpski militarizam!"" (translated): Along the way, great popular indignation against Serbian provocation was expressed with shouts: "Down with the Serbian dynasty ! Down with King Peter! Down with Serbian militarism!", and they shouted support for a free Croatia, Stjepan Radic and the Croatian republic.
https://archive.org/details/hrvatska_na_mucilistu-rudolf_horvat/page/52/mode/2up ZidarZ ( talk) 13:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The article says that the crowd shouted "Long live Bolshevik republic!". There is no reference given for that and I have never seen this written anywhere else. This Wikipedia article is the only place this is mentioned. ZidarZ ( talk) 15:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The article says "In the final days of the World War I, on 5–6 October 1918, political parties representing Croats, Slovenes, and Serbs living in Austria-Hungary organised the Zagreb-based National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs to achieve independence from the empire."
Who were the "political parties" representing Croatian interests? Were these democratically elected representatives or were they ZidarZ ( talk) 18:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The term "far-right" is used. Is it proper to use a present day term that has morphed in meaning to describe events in 1918? The words patriotic or nationalist are more appropriate. ZidarZ ( talk) 18:33, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
This article has the statement "shouting "Long live the republic!", "Long live Radić!", "Down with King Peter!", "Down with the dynasty!", "Long live the peasant party!", "Down with militarism!", "Long live Croatian republic!", and "Long live Bolshevik republic!".
This is NOT the proper translation of what is said in old sources.
I improved the section with "and shouting "Dolje srpska dinastija! Dolje kralj Petar! Dolje srpski militarizam!" ("Down with the Serbian dynasty ! Down with King Peter! Down with Serbian militarism!". They also shouted their desire for a free Croatia, and a long life for Stjepan Radić and the Croatian republic."
With the reference to Horvat, Rudolf (1942). Hrvatska na mučilištu (Croatia in the torture chamber) (in Croatian) (First ed.). Zagreb: Kulturno-Historijsko Društvo "Hrvatski Rodoljub". p. 53.
User "Buidhe" has decided to undo the improvement. Why would an improvement that is properly referenced be undone?
If "fake history" is preferred here then where is the credibility in the article the authors and other "revisers"? ZidarZ ( talk) 19:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
The article makes it appear that only soldiers were protesting and that it was some sort of armed uprising. This is not true.
I added " Many civilians, including women and high school students also joined the soldiers". Why?
User "Duidhe" undid my addition. Why?
Croatian historian Rudolf Horvat said " Zato u jutro provale sveučilišni đaci i drugi ljudi u zagrebačke srednje škole, gdje silom prekinuše obuku, te gimnazijalce i realce odvedoše na ulice, da u povorci manifestiraju gradom za novu državu."
Translation: That's why university students and other people broke into Zagreb's high schools in the morning, where they forcibly stopped training, and took the high school students and "realce" (?) to the streets, to demonstrate in a procession through the city for a new state.
Note: High school students = children
When you look at a picture of the event, you can clearly see high school boys and young men. All people in the picture are unarmed civilians.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prosvjedi_5_prosinca_1918_MGZ_080209.jpg ZidarZ ( talk) 19:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
There are questions about why the "protest" happened.
The root cause is the formation of the Kingdom of SHS. The critical aspect is whether or not the formation of the kingdom was legitimate. If the kingdom was formed not by a democratic process but by internal special interest groups and manipulation by foreign powers, was the formation of the kingdom legitimate? If it was not legitimate, then we can ask if the people, the wronged parties, were justified in protesting?
At present, the "vibe" on this article and the Kingdom of SHS article seems to be that the formation was legitimate and therefore the Croatian people are presented as the "bad guys".
I wonder how much of a role Ilija Garašanin and the Načertanije played and if that can help us determine who the victims and victimizers were. ZidarZ ( talk) 01:43, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
I am confused. In Croatian, the event is known as "Prosinačke žrtve 5. prosinca 1918." which translated to "December Sacrifices/Victims of December 5, 1918". In Serbian, the event is known as "decembarske žrtve" also December Victims, as it is also in Slovenia.
Why is the English title "1918 protest in Zagreb"? There is a big difference between the Croatian and English titles. To me, it seems like an attempt at the minimization of the suffering of the Croatian people. The only place online that the event is called "1918 protest in Zagreb" is on Wikipedia. ZidarZ ( talk) 12:53, 3 September 2023 (UTC)