This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1838 Mormon War article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"The church was persecuted for religion, which is against the constitution, the people in missouri were wrong.[5]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterGumby ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
I changed the text about Governor Boggs back, but I softened the writing by saying "a degree of" and "somewhat" and this sort of thing. This change "Boggs had shown fairness" --- where does that come from? I think historians --- not just Mormons --- agree that Boggs didn't show fairness. If anyone has a source that says otherwise, I would like to see a reference. -- John Hamer 04:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The section on the Daviess Expedition was changed to include information that is not accurate. The text was changed to read:
[Changes in bold.]
While it is true that apologists for the Mormons used to make the preposterous claim that the Missourians set fire to their own homes, no reputable historian would ever repeat such a thing today. See the two key current sources on the Mormon War:
I will look up the exact references when I have them in front of me. Using the term "mobbers" to refer to the Missourians who were being driven from their homes is rather the opposite of NPOV. In fact, it is the Mormons who were acting as a "mob," in that they illegally entered the county, drove out the Missourian settlers, stole their chattles and burned their homes.
The article as written was neutral. It acknowledged the wrongs and injustices of both the Mormons and the Missourians. I've reverted it to the way it had been. -- John Hamer 00:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By the way, this source: History of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is completely out of date. The Community of Christ recognizes that it was filled with partisan errors, which is why they commissioned a newer, less partisan history: The Church through the Years by Richard Howard. A new official history has just been commissioned to replace Howard's book and it will be published in 2007.
I've made corrections based on more recent scholarship to your expansion of the Daviess Expedition. The article is now accurate again, but I think that the expansion unfortunately emphasizes this part of the Mormon War. The fact is that Missourians acted as vigilantes and attacked Mormons in De Witt and elsewhere and later acted illegally when the Mormons were expelled from the state. But it's also true that the Mormons acted as vigilantes and attacked Missourians, e.g. in Daviess County and at Crooked River. Because you've required so much evidence to back up the latter reality, I think it overemphasizes the Mormon crimes. -- John Hamer 04:18, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jgardner --- I'm likewise sorry that I dismissed you quickly and reacted hastily. When I read the change about "mobbers" burning their own houses, I thought you were just a Wikipedia vandal. I would have reacted the same to someone claiming that the Mormons burned their own houses in Jackson County in order to blame the Missourians. You'll note that I reacted similarly when some Anti-Mormon vandal tried to change this article to say that Boggs had always treated the Mormons fairly. That's simply not true — Boggs clearly acted with negative bias toward the Mormons.
I agree with you that the primary sources are the most important sources. There are a great bulk of primary sources for this period, and yes I have read many, many of them. However, many of the primary sources are partisan. You have to consider them all and weigh them against each other. For many of the events, much of scholarship has reached a reasonable consensus on many issues in the past 20 years. The accounts in both Baugh and LeSueur match on almost all the issues — I've been referencing Alex Baugh for you to show you what believing, practicing LDS scholars have now said.
My goal is to tell this story in a neutral way. I am not an Anti-Mormon in any way. My ancestors lived in Far West; their property was wrongly appropriated and they were illegally expelled from the state. I am having an article I wrote on this period published in a compilation by the LDS church's Deseret Book (which I mention to illustrate that my research has not been viewed by the LDS church as "anti")
Let's work together here, if we can. Quote specific sources and references and I'll do my best to answer. -- John Hamer 14:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Could I suggest a disambig at the top to the page to Johnston's Army? Growing up Mormon (there's a title!), the only "Mormon War" I heard about was the US action against the western LDS Settlements. The Missouri troubles/persecutions were not labeled a "war" until college history class. So, our readers might need direction. WBardwin 15:42, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've been expanding this article --- it was actually one of the first I wrote, and it really needed some flesh on its bones (especially references) --- but I don't want it to be too long, so I've started to expand some of the supplemental articles. I just made a massive expansion to the Battle of Crooked River article and I hope to hit some of the others soon. -- John Hamer 01:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I understand that there are a great deal of Mormon articles in Wikipedia, its becoming something of the great saga. At the end of the articles such as this one could you enter a reference under 'see also' a link to the next part of the story. Such as that the Mormons are moved on to Illinois, but what happened there to end up seeing them go to Utah. I understand that these articles have been written, but I am wondering if you could link them up for us so that, if us readers come upon the story at any point we might be ushered on to the next installment or previous happening. Such seems the convenience of the almost linear development of the Mormon story, that it would be served well by this type of delivery. Danieljames626 05:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Kville105125 00:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC) The article was a redundant stub. See its old talk page Talk:Gallatin election day battle
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 05:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Mormon War → 1838 Mormon War — There is no widely preferred usage for Mormon War. If any term has an edge in history books it is the more broadly significant Utah War. I propose that Mormon War become a disambiguation page leading to 1838 Mormon War, Utah War, and the redirect Illinois Mormon War. Another possible title for this page after a move is Mormon Missouri War (sometimes Mormon-Missouri War, Missouri Mormon War, Mormon War in Missouri), although it seems to have less currency. In any case, the name Mormon War is too ambiguous by itself, since there were at least three significant conflicts given this name. The principle of least surprise suggests that most readers looking for "Mormon War" will want information about the Utah War. For example, of the three entries for " Mormon War" on Answers.com, ours is the anomaly. — Dhartung | Talk 00:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Although tensions were indeed high there was NEVER any authorized killing by organized Morman Forces (Although they came close) 66.41.186.212 ( talk) 22:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the second renaming of this article. Renaming this article based on date is not helpful. There are three wars that are clearly identified by state -- Missouri Mormon War, Illinois Mormon War and Utah War. The Utah article at least keeps the state name in it. You have to be a hardcore historian to recognize the dates whereas the states keep it in perspective. Americasroof ( talk) 20:45, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Holy cow! I can't believe I just added the only inline reference on this article! For an article about something that is very controversial, that is pretty pathetic! Americasroof ( talk) 02:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
<ref>...</ref>
style reference with one that is more similar to the style already used in the article. --
Joshua Issac (
talk)
01:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)The "cross" symbol next to David Patten's name is standard notation for US armed conflicts indicating death during combat &/or during the conflict; this is not a religious symbol in this usage, or some sort of a memorial. For another example please see War of 1812. This should not be removed again. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 15:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 22:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
This article was moved without discussion. The other articles refer to the state ( Utah Mormon War and Illinois Mormon War). People do not easily recognize the year. But they will recognize the state. Even the disambiguation refers to it as "AKA Missouri Mormon War." Americasroof ( talk) 02:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
All of the information here that discusses the forceful removal of Mormons appears to draw from sources affiliated with the LDS church. If the goal here is to inform a neutral audience, then there ought to be more effort involved. And is it really the case that there are no peer-reviewed sources on this topic outside of BYU? Rob Shepard ( talk) 04:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
NOT trying to start any kind of edit war here, but the change in the church name does have a bearing on this article. The name of the church is mentioned at the beginning of one section as the Church of Christ, which is correct--but by the time the war commenced, the name had officially changed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. While I would agree that it has no major bearing on the outbreak of the war, it does represent the official name of this organization at the time the conflict erupted; hence I think this article should pay at least passing credit to that fact. There is no need for any extended discussion, but the article should at least give the name that was being used officially in 1838, somewhere in the article prior to the portion that details the beginning of the conflict. Just my opinion, though--as I said, I'm not trying to start any edit wars. Cheers! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 04:20, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on 1838 Mormon War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
This claim is highly is questionable. The county itself was newly created, and its first election was scheduled precisely in 1838. Without historical voting records, how would it even be even possible to verify this assertion about a pre-existing political balance?
It's clear that the influx of Mormon settlers into the region did significantly impact local politics. It was the hot, new controversial issue that political candidates had to address. But this specific claim is just unsubstantiated. I have marked it as unverified and would appreciate if more work could be done on adressing the Mormons' disruptive impact on regional political dynamics. Gottagitgud ( talk) 20:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1838 Mormon War article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"The church was persecuted for religion, which is against the constitution, the people in missouri were wrong.[5]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterGumby ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
I changed the text about Governor Boggs back, but I softened the writing by saying "a degree of" and "somewhat" and this sort of thing. This change "Boggs had shown fairness" --- where does that come from? I think historians --- not just Mormons --- agree that Boggs didn't show fairness. If anyone has a source that says otherwise, I would like to see a reference. -- John Hamer 04:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The section on the Daviess Expedition was changed to include information that is not accurate. The text was changed to read:
[Changes in bold.]
While it is true that apologists for the Mormons used to make the preposterous claim that the Missourians set fire to their own homes, no reputable historian would ever repeat such a thing today. See the two key current sources on the Mormon War:
I will look up the exact references when I have them in front of me. Using the term "mobbers" to refer to the Missourians who were being driven from their homes is rather the opposite of NPOV. In fact, it is the Mormons who were acting as a "mob," in that they illegally entered the county, drove out the Missourian settlers, stole their chattles and burned their homes.
The article as written was neutral. It acknowledged the wrongs and injustices of both the Mormons and the Missourians. I've reverted it to the way it had been. -- John Hamer 00:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By the way, this source: History of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is completely out of date. The Community of Christ recognizes that it was filled with partisan errors, which is why they commissioned a newer, less partisan history: The Church through the Years by Richard Howard. A new official history has just been commissioned to replace Howard's book and it will be published in 2007.
I've made corrections based on more recent scholarship to your expansion of the Daviess Expedition. The article is now accurate again, but I think that the expansion unfortunately emphasizes this part of the Mormon War. The fact is that Missourians acted as vigilantes and attacked Mormons in De Witt and elsewhere and later acted illegally when the Mormons were expelled from the state. But it's also true that the Mormons acted as vigilantes and attacked Missourians, e.g. in Daviess County and at Crooked River. Because you've required so much evidence to back up the latter reality, I think it overemphasizes the Mormon crimes. -- John Hamer 04:18, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jgardner --- I'm likewise sorry that I dismissed you quickly and reacted hastily. When I read the change about "mobbers" burning their own houses, I thought you were just a Wikipedia vandal. I would have reacted the same to someone claiming that the Mormons burned their own houses in Jackson County in order to blame the Missourians. You'll note that I reacted similarly when some Anti-Mormon vandal tried to change this article to say that Boggs had always treated the Mormons fairly. That's simply not true — Boggs clearly acted with negative bias toward the Mormons.
I agree with you that the primary sources are the most important sources. There are a great bulk of primary sources for this period, and yes I have read many, many of them. However, many of the primary sources are partisan. You have to consider them all and weigh them against each other. For many of the events, much of scholarship has reached a reasonable consensus on many issues in the past 20 years. The accounts in both Baugh and LeSueur match on almost all the issues — I've been referencing Alex Baugh for you to show you what believing, practicing LDS scholars have now said.
My goal is to tell this story in a neutral way. I am not an Anti-Mormon in any way. My ancestors lived in Far West; their property was wrongly appropriated and they were illegally expelled from the state. I am having an article I wrote on this period published in a compilation by the LDS church's Deseret Book (which I mention to illustrate that my research has not been viewed by the LDS church as "anti")
Let's work together here, if we can. Quote specific sources and references and I'll do my best to answer. -- John Hamer 14:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Could I suggest a disambig at the top to the page to Johnston's Army? Growing up Mormon (there's a title!), the only "Mormon War" I heard about was the US action against the western LDS Settlements. The Missouri troubles/persecutions were not labeled a "war" until college history class. So, our readers might need direction. WBardwin 15:42, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've been expanding this article --- it was actually one of the first I wrote, and it really needed some flesh on its bones (especially references) --- but I don't want it to be too long, so I've started to expand some of the supplemental articles. I just made a massive expansion to the Battle of Crooked River article and I hope to hit some of the others soon. -- John Hamer 01:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I understand that there are a great deal of Mormon articles in Wikipedia, its becoming something of the great saga. At the end of the articles such as this one could you enter a reference under 'see also' a link to the next part of the story. Such as that the Mormons are moved on to Illinois, but what happened there to end up seeing them go to Utah. I understand that these articles have been written, but I am wondering if you could link them up for us so that, if us readers come upon the story at any point we might be ushered on to the next installment or previous happening. Such seems the convenience of the almost linear development of the Mormon story, that it would be served well by this type of delivery. Danieljames626 05:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Kville105125 00:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC) The article was a redundant stub. See its old talk page Talk:Gallatin election day battle
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR ( talk) 05:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Mormon War → 1838 Mormon War — There is no widely preferred usage for Mormon War. If any term has an edge in history books it is the more broadly significant Utah War. I propose that Mormon War become a disambiguation page leading to 1838 Mormon War, Utah War, and the redirect Illinois Mormon War. Another possible title for this page after a move is Mormon Missouri War (sometimes Mormon-Missouri War, Missouri Mormon War, Mormon War in Missouri), although it seems to have less currency. In any case, the name Mormon War is too ambiguous by itself, since there were at least three significant conflicts given this name. The principle of least surprise suggests that most readers looking for "Mormon War" will want information about the Utah War. For example, of the three entries for " Mormon War" on Answers.com, ours is the anomaly. — Dhartung | Talk 00:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Although tensions were indeed high there was NEVER any authorized killing by organized Morman Forces (Although they came close) 66.41.186.212 ( talk) 22:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the second renaming of this article. Renaming this article based on date is not helpful. There are three wars that are clearly identified by state -- Missouri Mormon War, Illinois Mormon War and Utah War. The Utah article at least keeps the state name in it. You have to be a hardcore historian to recognize the dates whereas the states keep it in perspective. Americasroof ( talk) 20:45, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Holy cow! I can't believe I just added the only inline reference on this article! For an article about something that is very controversial, that is pretty pathetic! Americasroof ( talk) 02:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
<ref>...</ref>
style reference with one that is more similar to the style already used in the article. --
Joshua Issac (
talk)
01:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)The "cross" symbol next to David Patten's name is standard notation for US armed conflicts indicating death during combat &/or during the conflict; this is not a religious symbol in this usage, or some sort of a memorial. For another example please see War of 1812. This should not be removed again. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 15:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 22:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
This article was moved without discussion. The other articles refer to the state ( Utah Mormon War and Illinois Mormon War). People do not easily recognize the year. But they will recognize the state. Even the disambiguation refers to it as "AKA Missouri Mormon War." Americasroof ( talk) 02:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
All of the information here that discusses the forceful removal of Mormons appears to draw from sources affiliated with the LDS church. If the goal here is to inform a neutral audience, then there ought to be more effort involved. And is it really the case that there are no peer-reviewed sources on this topic outside of BYU? Rob Shepard ( talk) 04:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
NOT trying to start any kind of edit war here, but the change in the church name does have a bearing on this article. The name of the church is mentioned at the beginning of one section as the Church of Christ, which is correct--but by the time the war commenced, the name had officially changed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. While I would agree that it has no major bearing on the outbreak of the war, it does represent the official name of this organization at the time the conflict erupted; hence I think this article should pay at least passing credit to that fact. There is no need for any extended discussion, but the article should at least give the name that was being used officially in 1838, somewhere in the article prior to the portion that details the beginning of the conflict. Just my opinion, though--as I said, I'm not trying to start any edit wars. Cheers! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 04:20, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on 1838 Mormon War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
This claim is highly is questionable. The county itself was newly created, and its first election was scheduled precisely in 1838. Without historical voting records, how would it even be even possible to verify this assertion about a pre-existing political balance?
It's clear that the influx of Mormon settlers into the region did significantly impact local politics. It was the hot, new controversial issue that political candidates had to address. But this specific claim is just unsubstantiated. I have marked it as unverified and would appreciate if more work could be done on adressing the Mormons' disruptive impact on regional political dynamics. Gottagitgud ( talk) 20:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)