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This should be more than a simple disambiguation page. It is the natural place for material that would otherwise have to be repeated in both of the "target" pages, e.g. the entire story of how we wound up with two purported rival Panchen Lamas. Bertport ( talk) 15:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Citation 1 which claims that the Panchen Lama stated support for the chinese process before he died is a blog post and is blatant propaganda. It offers no substance or evidence to back up the claim that the Panchen Lama gave authority to the Chinese government to choose his reincarnation on his deathbed other than to reiterate the statement in Chinese. Please investigate this citation and remove the statement if necessary. (google translation of the citation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.wenxuecity.com%2Fblog%2Ffrontend.php%3Fact%3DarticlePrint%26blogId%3D29089%26date%3D200711%26postId%3D13943&edit-text=&act=url ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.197.204.177 ( talk) 03:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
This article should be written in accordance with Wikipedia's NPOV policy by presenting both viewpoints in the introduction. RandomGamer123 Disc ( talk) 20:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo, the reasons for the revert are listed as WP:RS, WP:V. The RS problems: Goldstein's page belies a bias - his current membership in a large Chinese advocacy group. Jamyang Norbu's review criticizes Goldstein's work in detail, while Goldstein's own professor Hugh Richardson also spoke to the bias in his review for the Tibetan Review, … all Goldstein has to say about events after 1951 is that ‘a series of complicated events’ led to the flight into India of the Dalai Lama and 80,000 Tibetans. His eyes are closed to the Tibetan rising in 1959 and the accompanying bloodshed and atrocities, to the imposition of a total military and civil imperialistic dictatorship, and to the savage destruction of the Cultural Revolution. Norbu also states, The lasting impression that this huge compilation of highly selective narratives and information leaves us (although Goldstein is careful not to say it outright) is that China’s conquest of Tibet was inevitable, that Tibet died of its own inherent contradictions (as a Marxist historian might put it) and China’s invasion of Tibet and the subsequent death and destruction in that country was merely incidental and not any fault of China’s.
The WP:V is a big issue: none of the notes are verifiable; no quotations are provided from the sources; one of the sources needs a translated quotation. Quotations are needed for readers and editors to verify the text, especially since the sources are books. Policy for verification is especially important for pages about controversies. About the Kuzmin reference, it's unclear where it's noted in the text but it's an interesting view of China's codified policy to attempt to control reincarnated tulkus, which were largely developed after the kidnapping of the Panchen Lama. It would be best to arrive at consensus, but your preferred version of the page currently does not meet WP standards and policy. It also deleted multiple RS and supporting text including from the BBC, The Statesman, The Tibet Post, Tibet Post International as well as from other sources. Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 00:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot ( talk) 01:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Goldstein's own professoris next-level making shite up. 2) Don't conflate the "notability" of someone's criticism with taking someone's criticism at their word is the sign of someone. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 02:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Here are a few other notes for the thread, copied from another talk:
Weight on Goldstein as source is very heavy. Some of his opinions are contrary to history, RS, customs. I see he's often pushed on other pages, but I added an "According to..." caveat to a questionable interpretation. Tibetologist? Like Radiologist or Cardiologist? Author is the term. Will edit for consistency with his page. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 20:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Fellows will gain access to senior policymakers and experts in both the United States and China, and to individuals and fields they would not typically be exposed to, such as the business, arts, health, and civil society sectors in China, as well as to the media in both countries. Fellows will also have access to media coaches to help edit and place op-eds and develop a social media presence. Further, successful applicants will become part of an accomplished community of PIP Fellows who have formed a strong network of mutual support and academic collaboration. [3]. Placing op-eds with the aid of vested interests is an interesting focus. The membership in NCUSCR might or might not be a contributing factor to some of the questionable opinions, while his titles on modern history of Tibet are often used as academic RS in pages on Tibetan Buddhism.
Hey, Pasdecomplot, I'm concerned about that move and now rewrite. The move that you're saying lacked consensus seems to have been ten years ago from a DAB. —valereee ( talk) 14:27, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
There already is a third opinion [7]; the move today has CON. Past involvements on the page [8] have supported another editor's very serious POV problems [9] on the subject, today's efforts likewise. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:25, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
About your Third Opinion request: The Third Opinion request made about this dispute has been removed (i.e. declined). Disputes over page moves have their own resolution process which can be found at WP:RM#CM. Please use that process to resolve disputes over contested moves. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:54, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved back to 11th Panchen Lama controversy per nom. I acknowledge the request to keep this open by Pasdecomplot, but honestly, I don't see the point. Apart from them, support for the move is unanimous, and it just restores the long-standing title. It is up to them to propose a policy-based rationale for the move. No such user ( talk) 09:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
11th Panchen Lama →
11th Panchen Lama controversy – This move was predicated on the idea that the original move, ten years ago from a DAB and during an apparent DAB/redirect drive, was made without discussion and therefore didn't have consensus. The mover's argument is that because the move in 2010 didn't have a discussion, it made the article inherently unstable at the title
11th Panchen Lama controversy, which is where it was at the past ten years. There has been no apparent pushback to the move in the past ten years. My argument is that this article was stable at the previous title. Leaving this page where it is now requires merge with another page, the biography of the person who was abducted and whose abduction/controversy over the abduction this article described until this morning's move. See discussion above; further discussion at
Talk:Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima#Requested_move_24_October_2020.
—valereee (
talk) 18:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Note to closer, especially with obnoxious caps. It is difficult to see how the reference to Rigley's contributions without any connection to the merits of the move is not deplorable filibustering. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 23:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
However, Norbu’s appointment has not been accepted by many Tibetans in China, who recognise Nyima. Per WP:PRECISE, "controversy" must be incorporated in the title to reflect RS. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 23:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
has no objections. Best, Barkeep49 ( talk) 21:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot, CaradhrasAiguo, both of you stop edit warring and not AGFing now. I recommend both of you refactor YOUR OWN posts; PDC, please stop refactoring others' posts. Best practice is to request they refactor themselves. —valereee ( talk) 15:46, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
A personal attack (including "you are not permitted" and "obnoxious" and "despicable") above this edit was deleted as per WP policies on ETIQUETTE and WP:PA. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 00:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Hey, MarkH21, I actually think this article probably needs to be completely rewritten. There was a move request a few weeks back, and major revisions were made that reflected that move (from 11th Panchen Lama controversy to 11th Panchen Lama), so this article is currently more about the person Tibet recognizes rather than about the controversy. I've hated to just move it completely back to that earlier version as it would remove a ton of various edits. What do you think? The move was done Oct 11, and the changes were made subsequently during the move discussion. —valereee ( talk) 16:49, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This should be more than a simple disambiguation page. It is the natural place for material that would otherwise have to be repeated in both of the "target" pages, e.g. the entire story of how we wound up with two purported rival Panchen Lamas. Bertport ( talk) 15:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Citation 1 which claims that the Panchen Lama stated support for the chinese process before he died is a blog post and is blatant propaganda. It offers no substance or evidence to back up the claim that the Panchen Lama gave authority to the Chinese government to choose his reincarnation on his deathbed other than to reiterate the statement in Chinese. Please investigate this citation and remove the statement if necessary. (google translation of the citation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.wenxuecity.com%2Fblog%2Ffrontend.php%3Fact%3DarticlePrint%26blogId%3D29089%26date%3D200711%26postId%3D13943&edit-text=&act=url ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.197.204.177 ( talk) 03:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
This article should be written in accordance with Wikipedia's NPOV policy by presenting both viewpoints in the introduction. RandomGamer123 Disc ( talk) 20:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo, the reasons for the revert are listed as WP:RS, WP:V. The RS problems: Goldstein's page belies a bias - his current membership in a large Chinese advocacy group. Jamyang Norbu's review criticizes Goldstein's work in detail, while Goldstein's own professor Hugh Richardson also spoke to the bias in his review for the Tibetan Review, … all Goldstein has to say about events after 1951 is that ‘a series of complicated events’ led to the flight into India of the Dalai Lama and 80,000 Tibetans. His eyes are closed to the Tibetan rising in 1959 and the accompanying bloodshed and atrocities, to the imposition of a total military and civil imperialistic dictatorship, and to the savage destruction of the Cultural Revolution. Norbu also states, The lasting impression that this huge compilation of highly selective narratives and information leaves us (although Goldstein is careful not to say it outright) is that China’s conquest of Tibet was inevitable, that Tibet died of its own inherent contradictions (as a Marxist historian might put it) and China’s invasion of Tibet and the subsequent death and destruction in that country was merely incidental and not any fault of China’s.
The WP:V is a big issue: none of the notes are verifiable; no quotations are provided from the sources; one of the sources needs a translated quotation. Quotations are needed for readers and editors to verify the text, especially since the sources are books. Policy for verification is especially important for pages about controversies. About the Kuzmin reference, it's unclear where it's noted in the text but it's an interesting view of China's codified policy to attempt to control reincarnated tulkus, which were largely developed after the kidnapping of the Panchen Lama. It would be best to arrive at consensus, but your preferred version of the page currently does not meet WP standards and policy. It also deleted multiple RS and supporting text including from the BBC, The Statesman, The Tibet Post, Tibet Post International as well as from other sources. Thanks. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 00:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot ( talk) 01:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Goldstein's own professoris next-level making shite up. 2) Don't conflate the "notability" of someone's criticism with taking someone's criticism at their word is the sign of someone. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 02:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Here are a few other notes for the thread, copied from another talk:
Weight on Goldstein as source is very heavy. Some of his opinions are contrary to history, RS, customs. I see he's often pushed on other pages, but I added an "According to..." caveat to a questionable interpretation. Tibetologist? Like Radiologist or Cardiologist? Author is the term. Will edit for consistency with his page. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 20:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Fellows will gain access to senior policymakers and experts in both the United States and China, and to individuals and fields they would not typically be exposed to, such as the business, arts, health, and civil society sectors in China, as well as to the media in both countries. Fellows will also have access to media coaches to help edit and place op-eds and develop a social media presence. Further, successful applicants will become part of an accomplished community of PIP Fellows who have formed a strong network of mutual support and academic collaboration. [3]. Placing op-eds with the aid of vested interests is an interesting focus. The membership in NCUSCR might or might not be a contributing factor to some of the questionable opinions, while his titles on modern history of Tibet are often used as academic RS in pages on Tibetan Buddhism.
Hey, Pasdecomplot, I'm concerned about that move and now rewrite. The move that you're saying lacked consensus seems to have been ten years ago from a DAB. —valereee ( talk) 14:27, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
There already is a third opinion [7]; the move today has CON. Past involvements on the page [8] have supported another editor's very serious POV problems [9] on the subject, today's efforts likewise. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 17:25, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
About your Third Opinion request: The Third Opinion request made about this dispute has been removed (i.e. declined). Disputes over page moves have their own resolution process which can be found at WP:RM#CM. Please use that process to resolve disputes over contested moves. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:54, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved back to 11th Panchen Lama controversy per nom. I acknowledge the request to keep this open by Pasdecomplot, but honestly, I don't see the point. Apart from them, support for the move is unanimous, and it just restores the long-standing title. It is up to them to propose a policy-based rationale for the move. No such user ( talk) 09:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
11th Panchen Lama →
11th Panchen Lama controversy – This move was predicated on the idea that the original move, ten years ago from a DAB and during an apparent DAB/redirect drive, was made without discussion and therefore didn't have consensus. The mover's argument is that because the move in 2010 didn't have a discussion, it made the article inherently unstable at the title
11th Panchen Lama controversy, which is where it was at the past ten years. There has been no apparent pushback to the move in the past ten years. My argument is that this article was stable at the previous title. Leaving this page where it is now requires merge with another page, the biography of the person who was abducted and whose abduction/controversy over the abduction this article described until this morning's move. See discussion above; further discussion at
Talk:Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima#Requested_move_24_October_2020.
—valereee (
talk) 18:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Note to closer, especially with obnoxious caps. It is difficult to see how the reference to Rigley's contributions without any connection to the merits of the move is not deplorable filibustering. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 23:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
However, Norbu’s appointment has not been accepted by many Tibetans in China, who recognise Nyima. Per WP:PRECISE, "controversy" must be incorporated in the title to reflect RS. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 23:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
has no objections. Best, Barkeep49 ( talk) 21:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot, CaradhrasAiguo, both of you stop edit warring and not AGFing now. I recommend both of you refactor YOUR OWN posts; PDC, please stop refactoring others' posts. Best practice is to request they refactor themselves. —valereee ( talk) 15:46, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
A personal attack (including "you are not permitted" and "obnoxious" and "despicable") above this edit was deleted as per WP policies on ETIQUETTE and WP:PA. Pasdecomplot ( talk) 00:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Hey, MarkH21, I actually think this article probably needs to be completely rewritten. There was a move request a few weeks back, and major revisions were made that reflected that move (from 11th Panchen Lama controversy to 11th Panchen Lama), so this article is currently more about the person Tibet recognizes rather than about the controversy. I've hated to just move it completely back to that earlier version as it would remove a ton of various edits. What do you think? The move was done Oct 11, and the changes were made subsequently during the move discussion. —valereee ( talk) 16:49, 21 December 2020 (UTC)