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a comment on two wording choices: the title should be something like 'Phagspa script' or 'Phagspa alphabet', and it should not be compared to "other languages", since it itself is not a language. kwami 10:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Good to have this article about one more mongolian script now! I did a general copyedit for grammar, consolidated some redundancies, and added details here and there. In the process, I had to remove a few things:
I hope that not too much useful information was lost in the process. I'll see if I can find some information about how the script actually works (it's a syllabary), to create a character table, etc. I agree with Kwamikagami that the article should be renamed to Phagspa script (or possibly 'Phags-pa script, currently a redirect), consistent with other alphabets. -- Latebird 10:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... then it seems to be a hybrid system, since the "a" is implied when no other vowel follows. Do the linguists have an extra name for such a combination? -- Latebird 09:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The board do not require registration before. Possibly due to spammers, it became necessary. I copied the content to here and see if some of the contents gives help:
<quote> General : Creating a font for a medieval Mongolian Font
Prev Discussion Next Discussion Send Replies to My Inbox Reply
Recommend Delete Message 1 of 5 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknameckc-石添小草-석팀소초 (Original Message) Sent: 9/15/2001 3:06 PM Dear all,
I am currently trying to build a font for a Mongolian Font in Medieval Time. For details, you can refer to this homepage:
http://www.mimosapudica.org/Language/Mongolian/MidMongolian.html
It is a set of characters called the "Hphags-pa" characters, created by Hphags-pa, the "country-teacher" of the Kublai-Khan. It is based on the Tibet characters, but writing vertically like the traditional Mongolian characters, and connected vertically on the right-hand-side.
According to the recent announcement of computerization of Mongolian Fonts, the government said, to ease the encoding of Mongolian fonts, we can turn the characters 90-degree anti-clockwise, so the connected line are facing up, and the fonts can be rendering from left to right. In that case, I try to use my "Softy" software to build the font sets. I knew I cannot use Softy to make them connected, so I come to VOLT. But then I start to think:
First Previous 2-5 of 5 Next Last
Reply
Recommend Message 2 of 5 in Discussion From: Paul Sent: 9/17/2001 7:15 PM Kajoon,
I have the Mongolian script engine mostly done now. I only need to take care of rules for female versions of characters.
Windows 2000 and Windows Xp only uses Cyrillic script for Mongolian language and does not know the Mongolian script.
I cannot say if your form of letters will fit into the Unicode 3.0 definition of Mongolian script (Mongolian, Sibe, Todo, Manchu). If they do, you should be able to have a typeface that has the style you need. If it is not equivalent you would need to come up with some other mechanism.
>the government said, to ease the encoding of Mongolian fonts...
Please don't listen to what the government said. They do not know what they are talking about and your font will not join correctly and will not work when the Uniscribe shaping engine for Mongolian is available.
Mongolian script needs two things to work correctly. These are: 1) shaping engine for OpenType font that provides correct contextual shape 2) application support to correctly render lines (vertically and moving the correct direction.
Please contact me directly to discuss this issue further.
Paul
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 5 in Discussion From: martin heijdra Sent: 9/20/2001 1:43 AM I think some misunderstanding is taking place here; Phagspa is not the traditional Mongolian Paul is talking about, nor is the "connectivity" Kajoon talks about the same as Paul's. It has also nothing to do with the Mongolian script being "reinstated" in Mongolia (and which has always been, and still is, widely used in Inner Mongolia.)
Phagspa is not yet encoded in Unicode. It is more properly compared to Tibetan, on which it was based, and for which it was also used in addition to Mongolian, Chinese, Sanskrit etc.
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 5 in Discussion From: Chris Fynn Sent: 9/20/2001 7:19 PM 'Phags-pa (pron. Phagpa) is a script which was devised by Choegyal Phagpa - (a Tibetan Lama who was the guru of Kublai Khan) - for writing Buddhist texts and other documents in Mongolian. It is based on the Tibetan script and can be used for writing both Tibetan and Mongolian. It was probably never widely adopted and very few complete texts exist in this script. These days it is mostly used as a decorative script and on seals. As yet Phagpa has no Unicode block assigned to it [though it is listed in the Unicode roadmap for future encoding)- the closest encoded script would be Tibetan. Since the Tibetan block has a whole set of joining (stacking) consonants you could get probably your vertical joining that way - up to a certain extent. A problem would be vowels in the middle of a stack. You might have a problem with vowels anyway since the vowels I, E, and O would have to be re-ordered if you turn the round by 90 deg and write it linerarly since in typing and in the backing (data) store the vowel should always occur after the characters for the consonant(s) with which it combines (this is the way it is read) - but for writing, display and printing the glyphs for these vowels occur before the consonants (when written linearly) You could solve this by making ligatures of all the consonant+vowel combinations and using substitution.
- Chris
-- Christopher J Fynn DDC Dzongkha Computing Project PO Box 122, Thimphu, Bhutan </quote> -- Tomchiukc 08:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
As an outsider (I don't believe I've ever seen this script before), I'm confused by the picture with the caption "Comparison between characters of the Phagspa script and the Korean Hangul script". There are four lines, and it appears to me that the first two lines are Phagspa script, while the third and fourth are Hangul. But the first and second seem quite different--the first is very straight, sort of like a sans serif font, while the second looks much more like it's hand-written. Similarly for the third vs. fourth. If I'm right, this makes for confusion on the part of the reader. I would suggest either eliminating the within-script differences, or changing the caption so as to label all four lines.
Also, is there a reason this doesn't reference the Unicode chart for "Mongolian"? I'm assuming, anyway, that Unicode "Mongolian" = Phagspa.
Mcswell 12:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This was moved from Phagspa script to ’Phagspa script recently, on the grounds that this is the more normal spelling. I'm not sure that's right. I note that none of the external links this article links to spell it ’Phagspa script. The correct Wylie is ’phags-pa (or vphags-pa, an acceptable variant); the modern pronunciation would be something like pagpa—the apostrophe serves no purpose there. The most common spelling on the internet seems to be the Wylie (this is the only case I can recall seeing where the Wylie spelling is more popular than a phonetic one). I suggest moving this page to ’Phags-pa script, especially since we have an article on Phagpa himself; the Wylie spelling is indispensible but it seems unfair to our readers to introduce a third spelling of the name.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 01:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 04:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Jerezembel ( talk) 19:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books/about/Chinese_in_Hp_ags_pa_Script.html?id=4mHKuAAACAAJ
Menggu Ziyun
http://nthur.lib.nthu.edu.tw/retrieve/107565/JA01_2001_p459.pdf
http://nthur.lib.nthu.edu.tw/retrieve/107536/JA01_2000_p93.pdf
07:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
This script was only recently added to Unicode and many devices (e.g. mobile phones) don't have fonts with the necessary glyphs. Could images of the characters be added to the table, please? Other articles on writing systems do this, for example Aramaic script. Hairy Dude ( talk) 17:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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a comment on two wording choices: the title should be something like 'Phagspa script' or 'Phagspa alphabet', and it should not be compared to "other languages", since it itself is not a language. kwami 10:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Good to have this article about one more mongolian script now! I did a general copyedit for grammar, consolidated some redundancies, and added details here and there. In the process, I had to remove a few things:
I hope that not too much useful information was lost in the process. I'll see if I can find some information about how the script actually works (it's a syllabary), to create a character table, etc. I agree with Kwamikagami that the article should be renamed to Phagspa script (or possibly 'Phags-pa script, currently a redirect), consistent with other alphabets. -- Latebird 10:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... then it seems to be a hybrid system, since the "a" is implied when no other vowel follows. Do the linguists have an extra name for such a combination? -- Latebird 09:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The board do not require registration before. Possibly due to spammers, it became necessary. I copied the content to here and see if some of the contents gives help:
<quote> General : Creating a font for a medieval Mongolian Font
Prev Discussion Next Discussion Send Replies to My Inbox Reply
Recommend Delete Message 1 of 5 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknameckc-石添小草-석팀소초 (Original Message) Sent: 9/15/2001 3:06 PM Dear all,
I am currently trying to build a font for a Mongolian Font in Medieval Time. For details, you can refer to this homepage:
http://www.mimosapudica.org/Language/Mongolian/MidMongolian.html
It is a set of characters called the "Hphags-pa" characters, created by Hphags-pa, the "country-teacher" of the Kublai-Khan. It is based on the Tibet characters, but writing vertically like the traditional Mongolian characters, and connected vertically on the right-hand-side.
According to the recent announcement of computerization of Mongolian Fonts, the government said, to ease the encoding of Mongolian fonts, we can turn the characters 90-degree anti-clockwise, so the connected line are facing up, and the fonts can be rendering from left to right. In that case, I try to use my "Softy" software to build the font sets. I knew I cannot use Softy to make them connected, so I come to VOLT. But then I start to think:
First Previous 2-5 of 5 Next Last
Reply
Recommend Message 2 of 5 in Discussion From: Paul Sent: 9/17/2001 7:15 PM Kajoon,
I have the Mongolian script engine mostly done now. I only need to take care of rules for female versions of characters.
Windows 2000 and Windows Xp only uses Cyrillic script for Mongolian language and does not know the Mongolian script.
I cannot say if your form of letters will fit into the Unicode 3.0 definition of Mongolian script (Mongolian, Sibe, Todo, Manchu). If they do, you should be able to have a typeface that has the style you need. If it is not equivalent you would need to come up with some other mechanism.
>the government said, to ease the encoding of Mongolian fonts...
Please don't listen to what the government said. They do not know what they are talking about and your font will not join correctly and will not work when the Uniscribe shaping engine for Mongolian is available.
Mongolian script needs two things to work correctly. These are: 1) shaping engine for OpenType font that provides correct contextual shape 2) application support to correctly render lines (vertically and moving the correct direction.
Please contact me directly to discuss this issue further.
Paul
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 5 in Discussion From: martin heijdra Sent: 9/20/2001 1:43 AM I think some misunderstanding is taking place here; Phagspa is not the traditional Mongolian Paul is talking about, nor is the "connectivity" Kajoon talks about the same as Paul's. It has also nothing to do with the Mongolian script being "reinstated" in Mongolia (and which has always been, and still is, widely used in Inner Mongolia.)
Phagspa is not yet encoded in Unicode. It is more properly compared to Tibetan, on which it was based, and for which it was also used in addition to Mongolian, Chinese, Sanskrit etc.
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 5 in Discussion From: Chris Fynn Sent: 9/20/2001 7:19 PM 'Phags-pa (pron. Phagpa) is a script which was devised by Choegyal Phagpa - (a Tibetan Lama who was the guru of Kublai Khan) - for writing Buddhist texts and other documents in Mongolian. It is based on the Tibetan script and can be used for writing both Tibetan and Mongolian. It was probably never widely adopted and very few complete texts exist in this script. These days it is mostly used as a decorative script and on seals. As yet Phagpa has no Unicode block assigned to it [though it is listed in the Unicode roadmap for future encoding)- the closest encoded script would be Tibetan. Since the Tibetan block has a whole set of joining (stacking) consonants you could get probably your vertical joining that way - up to a certain extent. A problem would be vowels in the middle of a stack. You might have a problem with vowels anyway since the vowels I, E, and O would have to be re-ordered if you turn the round by 90 deg and write it linerarly since in typing and in the backing (data) store the vowel should always occur after the characters for the consonant(s) with which it combines (this is the way it is read) - but for writing, display and printing the glyphs for these vowels occur before the consonants (when written linearly) You could solve this by making ligatures of all the consonant+vowel combinations and using substitution.
- Chris
-- Christopher J Fynn DDC Dzongkha Computing Project PO Box 122, Thimphu, Bhutan </quote> -- Tomchiukc 08:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
As an outsider (I don't believe I've ever seen this script before), I'm confused by the picture with the caption "Comparison between characters of the Phagspa script and the Korean Hangul script". There are four lines, and it appears to me that the first two lines are Phagspa script, while the third and fourth are Hangul. But the first and second seem quite different--the first is very straight, sort of like a sans serif font, while the second looks much more like it's hand-written. Similarly for the third vs. fourth. If I'm right, this makes for confusion on the part of the reader. I would suggest either eliminating the within-script differences, or changing the caption so as to label all four lines.
Also, is there a reason this doesn't reference the Unicode chart for "Mongolian"? I'm assuming, anyway, that Unicode "Mongolian" = Phagspa.
Mcswell 12:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This was moved from Phagspa script to ’Phagspa script recently, on the grounds that this is the more normal spelling. I'm not sure that's right. I note that none of the external links this article links to spell it ’Phagspa script. The correct Wylie is ’phags-pa (or vphags-pa, an acceptable variant); the modern pronunciation would be something like pagpa—the apostrophe serves no purpose there. The most common spelling on the internet seems to be the Wylie (this is the only case I can recall seeing where the Wylie spelling is more popular than a phonetic one). I suggest moving this page to ’Phags-pa script, especially since we have an article on Phagpa himself; the Wylie spelling is indispensible but it seems unfair to our readers to introduce a third spelling of the name.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 01:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 04:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Jerezembel ( talk) 19:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books/about/Chinese_in_Hp_ags_pa_Script.html?id=4mHKuAAACAAJ
Menggu Ziyun
http://nthur.lib.nthu.edu.tw/retrieve/107565/JA01_2001_p459.pdf
http://nthur.lib.nthu.edu.tw/retrieve/107536/JA01_2000_p93.pdf
07:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
This script was only recently added to Unicode and many devices (e.g. mobile phones) don't have fonts with the necessary glyphs. Could images of the characters be added to the table, please? Other articles on writing systems do this, for example Aramaic script. Hairy Dude ( talk) 17:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)