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Maybe we should divide the early history section in 3 parts, Zvejai, Tuskelenai, and Siaures miesteles? It's getting kind of long.
The Tuskulenai entry "... in order to service Vilnius Castles...". Service them in what way?
Alexander Rimsky-Korsakov - was he closely related to the musician? If not I think we shouldn't link to that article.
The White Little Manor - the description seems a little strange in the original reference. Why is it listed under Tuskenelu apŽvalga if it had no connection to it? Maybe wanting to distance themselves from Tuskenai's history? At any rate I think the part of the sentence that goes "no connection to Tuskelenai" should go.
"in January 1991, the victims of the January Events could be accessed for a farewell at the Palace." This sounds a little strange to my American ear. Access usually implies use of some sort. If someone could provide a reference for this, I could maybe come up with something else.
The mention of unintentional irony (in the recent street namings paragraph) seems a little out of place for Wikipedia. The ordinary reader would need a lot of background in regional history to see any irony. It would look to this hypothetical reader like "Hey, these were Lithuanian military heroes; why not name streets after them?"
Novickas 17:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC) PS much nicer info box picture
I'll remove the "irony" part, because most likely it was just a coincidence that Šiaurės Miestelis continues with that military "flavor". White Little Manor should stay, because 19th century buildings are very scarce in Žirmūnai. The bit about the "farewell" in the Sports Palace is due to my inability to translate the Lithuanian word "pašarvoti", i.e. to "display" a casket with the deceased so that the relatives etc might come up to stand in silence etc (the ref is
http://whatson.delfi.lt/archive/article.php?id=10036631 , mentioned in the article).
Juozas Rimas 20:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Probably it is time to press for GA, any objections? M.K. 17:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC) I think it's time. Novickas 17:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Standard crime statistics, or at least the easiest ones to find, are expressed as crimes per 1,000 persons per year. So I'm thinking we should take out the December 2005 crime rate (not the number of crimes) so as not to compare apples and oranges. Novickas 16:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe contributors who improved this article, would like to do the same with Vilnius? It is a bit shame that so nice city has a not fully developed article. So I just wondering maybe you all try to work on it too. A? M.K. 09:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
This idea sounds great to me. But somewhat daunting. The PL-LT wars almost made us lose Renata. (We might have gotten lucky with this article in the sense that it has not been derailed by controversy). The collaboration has been great, wish we could get together and celebrate, galbut kada nors (maybe sometime). In the meantime...let's encourage each other. Novickas 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
So Vilnius is next? Juozas are you with us? M.K. 18:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
My activity regarding the Žirmūnai article is partly related to the fact that I have lived in the neighborhood since I was born. But this means I also lived in Vilnius all the time, so why not enhance the Vilnius article? :) However, Vilnius is such a HUGE topic... Juozas Rimas 12:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So when we go to Vilnius? M.K. 22:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Am looking at Boston, Massachusetts, since it was a featured article, for ideas. A lot of the Vilnius talk page could be archived; M.K.? Novickas 13:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an excellent, comprehensive, well-written, informative and fascinating article. Well done to all involved!
This article is on hold for the following reasons:
When these objections are addressed feel free to contact me. Tarret 20:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, lets fix them. M.K. 23:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)P.S. Renata, why you stopped all sections needs prose style :)
Made some adjustments, needs copy edit, badly needs! M.K. 13:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC) P.S.I am not sure about first or add a fourth paragraph
Thanks Novickas for copy edit. Renata you meaningly left bullets in Other educational institutions in Žirmūnai include? M.K. 16:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is excellent. I know that those involved now want to move on to tidying up and improving the Vilnius article. After you've done that, perhaps you could consider editing the articles for the other districts/suburbs of Vilnius? It would be great if they were as detailed and well-written as this one.
And then after that perhaps other cities and towns of Lithuania.....?
It would be fantastic to make Wikipedia a detailed English-language source of info on Lithuania. Perhaps it could help promote the country and bring in more tourists?
Originally from the UK, I lived and worked in Vilnius for two years. I'm back in London now, but I'd be happy to help in any way I can.
-- Terryc 09:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In re The Ideal Communist City. This book is frequently cited but with different publication dates - some say "almost 40 years ago", some say "in the 1970s", one says "in the 1950s". Does anyone know enough Russian to find the actual Russian publication date? Novickas 20:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Added. It seems, though, that Žirmūnai were built earlier than the book was first published. But it's likely that the concept was "in the air" in Moscow University and Lithuanian architects were exposed to it directly. Juozas Rimas 21:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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What about the architectural style of the will-some-day-be-destroyed Sports Palace. So far more sources claim in favour of Brutalism than Constructivism. Iulius 13:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
How about "the Palace of Concerts and Sports, described in architectural literature as a notable example of either Constructivism or Brutalism ". Allows the reader to decide. Novickas 13:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Proposed some ideas in the peer review article, may be some one would be willing to discuss the actions? Iulius 16:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
User 213.52.162.226, per recent edits, thinks we should follow British usages in this article (e.g. River Neris vs. Neris River). The W. guidelines indicate that it should consistently go all one way or the other, any thoughts? Novickas 18:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I just spent several hour converting references into proper format using {{ cite web}}. Could someone with better knowledge of Polish and Russian covert refs #15, 16, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29? Thanks! Renata 09:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone ever found information online on the population of Lithuania's rural elderates? We are hesitating whether Žirmūnai's the most populous of all the elderates or just city elderates. The rural elderates might be larger but 47K people (could be 60K now easily) in Žirmūnai are a lot for Lithuania in absolute terms as well. Juozas Rimas 09:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Do we need any more references in this article? Iulius 09:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Presumably the reviewer wants the history in the lead paragraphs shortened? Does anyone know of some FAC city neighborhood articles that we could look at? Novickas 12:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Epbr123 11:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the apparently nonsensical IPA. Anyone know for sure? kwami ( talk) 07:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Armia Krajowa soldiers – who had been executed by the NKGB and MGB in the Vilnius' KGB Palace between 1944 and 1947. by user:Renata3 and who had been executed by the NKGB and MGB in the Vilnius' KGB Palace between 1944 and 1947 but also those who died fighting Polish Armia Krajowa soldiers. nu user:Jacurek is rather disturbing difference. A question - were there no AK soldiers burried after they surrendered and laid down the arms to the Red army in parade after the so called Operation Ostra Brama.-- Lokyz ( talk) 21:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Would you please stop using my name in the edit summarries. It is considered as Uncivil. Regarding insane - indeed it is insane trying to apply a Polish name to the 1960 establishment. Consider this before attempting to put an inappropriate name here. If you still think it has a place here you might think a Lithuanian name for Nowa Huta.-- Lokyz ( talk) 15:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
<-- Are you going to answer any questions that were posed to you, or just keep changing subjects from one to another and city to city. Now, THAT may be considered by some as uncivil or at least not conducive to a good faith discussion. So to answer your question, this has nothing to do with imperialism, Polish or otherwise and the population of Poles in Kiev is only a third of one percent as opposed to close to fifteen percent here. Also, even if Kijow should be in Kiev but it's not there, doesn't say anything about what should be in here. Now, let me ask again: 1) What is the relevance of the fact that Polish Wiki has articles titled "Waszyngton" and "Moskwa" to this article? 2) Is there a particular guideline, or at least a specific reason, why you think that including an editor's name in an edit summary is uncivil or is this just your own 'seeing teddy bears'? radek ( talk) 18:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, several of you have violated WP:3RR in this silly edit war. Keep it up and I'll block you for disrupting the article. If you cannot agree here, then ask for mediation. (Personally, I don't see why it's a problem to include the Polish or Russian, and the Polish is certainly not "dubious" as Lokyz claimed, but then I don't see why an English speaker would care about the Polish either, so either version seems acceptable to me.)
While we're here, if anyone knows what the "IPA" is supposed to be, it would be nice to get that cleaned up. With diacritics, is the city maybe " Žirmūnaĩ "? kwami ( talk) 21:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
<-- Actually, what you should do is file a case over at Sockpuppet investigations [3]. Be sure to really articulate your suspicions, the reasons for them and the evidence you've accumulated. If you're not gonna do it, then please don't make these empty threats and insulting insinuations. Actually, let me ask this clearly: Are you suggesting that I am Jacurek's sock puppet or vice versa? If not then I want you to categorically state that your above suggestion was just a (ill considered) joke and was not meant to be taken seriously. Seriously, accusing editors of suck puppetry for no reason at all, is not cool. radek ( talk) 04:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, I was operating under the assumption that everyone here was aware that the name "Zyrmuny" predates the official establishment of this suburb but perhaps not. So here it is, the name predates this official establishment. radek ( talk) 03:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone explain what is wrong with the neutrality or was the tag added just out of thin air?-- Lokyz ( talk) 06:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
(LOKYZ ! THIS IS TO MUCH YOU REMOVED THIS COMMENT. I'M WARNING YOU NOW. Reinserting my original question removed by Lokyz below.)
Should Russian name be also included here? I'm not sure about it but since there is the biggest Russian minority living in Žirmūnai and since the Russians developed Žirmūnai in the 1960's maybe it should be there?-- Jacurek ( talk) 23:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Should Russian name be also included here and if not, why? I may post this question on the Russian board to get more feedback. I think that since they developed the area and have substantial minority there, the Russian name should be next to the Polish one.-- Jacurek ( talk) 00:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Me: the name predates this official establishment. Lokyz:Any sources to support this allegation? English language preffered.--Lokyz (talk) 05:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The fact that a Belorusian village of the same name has existed since the 18th century (see Karol Podczaszyński) should be proof enough that the names predates the official establishment. radek ( talk) 17:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Now, since I've answered yet another one of your questions, would you mind answering at least, I dunno, three?... is that too much... make it two then, of mine:
I'm not letting you off the hook here - it's impossible to have a good faith, productive discussion if one side refuses to engage and answer questions and instead responds with only new questions and new empty accusations. I got to give some credit to MK here, at least he's trying to address the issue. radek ( talk) 17:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
A ya, it is connected to Spain, Germany, Norway and etc as well. Regarding "Hispanic" perhaps it is offensive to some, likewise perhaps it is offensive to some to be called "Polish". But I am confident that people will find the way to Oxford dictionary for the explanation [5]. M.K. (talk) 09:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
You're not seriously arguing that Vilnius' connection to Spain (or Germany, or Norway) is the same as Vilnius' connection to Poland? That would be quite something. As for Hispanic, Oxford dictionary also has other terms in it which are also now considered offensive. The fact that it hasn't caught up with the fact that many Latino/as do consider it offensive (most of them DON'T come from Hispaniola after all and have no connection to Spain) doesn't change that they do. And nobody's calling anyone Polish that doesn't want to be called that. Apparently some do want to forcibly "Lithuanize" the Poles that live in Lithuania though. radek ( talk) 17:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
MK: Both of you per WP:BURDEN should convince community that such "info" is needed, relevant and necessary. So far I saw only irrelevant personal related comments without any substance
If you had read the discussion carefully you'd seen that I've provided much more info and arguments other than "irrelevant personal related comments without any substance" (which appears to be Lokyz' specialty). But to reiterate and summarize: The other-language name should be included if EITHER (not both) of these reasons are satisfied:
Now, Zyrmuny satisfies BOTH of these criteria. The first because it has an almost 15% Polish minority. And the second because it is part of Vilnius which has very strong ties to Polish history and culture. Additionally - even though I consider this a bit of a red herring - the name predates the Soviet development. So in fact, the BURDEN is met twice over, double! As either one of these reasons should be sufficient. Now, I'm not gonna assume bad faith here and suggest that you just brought up WP:BURDEN to throw up a road block and that no matter what arguments are presented you will insist that it hasn't been met - but just wanted to make sure the possibility of someone somewhere acting in this way is on the table.
And yes, I would apply roughly the same criteria for Lithuanian names in Polish cities. And these criteria are consistent with how we deal with Breslau in Wroclaw and similar issues in Polish/German towns. So why should Poland/Lithuania be an exception? radek ( talk) 17:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
May I suggest that the above "BOTH" criteria are rather irrelevant without major consideration: Prevalence in English usage (since it is English wikipedia, after all, and translations are one mouse click away). Clarification: in the case of e.g., Wrocław/ Breslau the German name of a now Polish city has so a significant historical prominence that in can be seen in numerous English-language texts.
Second counter-argument: if we were talking about this old village of Zirmunai, it would make sense to use both historical names, regardless English usage. But in the case of district there is no historical usage: in Vilnuis it was in use only in Soviet times.
Finally, a remark about Russian term: IMO for an English reader it is rather useless: no significant usage is seen in google, but for the sake of redirect I'd rather add it, so that someone reading some translation of an old Russian text could find Zhirmunai in wikipedia. - Altenmann >t 01:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, argumentation for the inclusion of the irrelevant names was already disproved by others in several cases already. Just few brief repetition:
The featured article New York City doesn't have its Spanish name in the lead, even tho 24% of its population speak Spanish at home [8] and Latinos are an important part of its cultural history. Novickas ( talk) 13:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems like both Altenmann and M.K. are suggesting that the criteria for whether to include other names should be based on whether or not English literature uses a given name, past or present. Is this considered a sufficient condition for inclusion? radek ( talk) 18:04, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Add: Since the point of protecting the article is to give editors involved in a dispute a chance to come to an agreement or at least to fully discussed the issues under dispute, I would like to encourage/request the editors who object to other language names in this article to fully articulate their position in a detailed, precise manner (as I have done with my view above), or at least answer the question I posed right above. radek ( talk) 21:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Iulius. But I was more asking what would be sufficient to include other language names rather than what would be sufficient to exclude them in this particular instance. So this is a more general question which I'm asking because this seems to be a perennial conflict. Or another way to think about it is what kind of evidence or facts would be enough to change your mind here? But since you addressed the particular topic let me just say that
....and why exactly some people are trying to enforce "a ban" on Polish or Russian spelling of Lithuanian cities and suburbs after so many argument against such a behaviour?? What is so special about Lithuanian cities as oppose to all others? I have to be missing someting here...
Reminder - per Wikipedia:LEAD#Usage_in_first_sentence, alternate names in 1st sentence should reflect consensus. Novickas ( talk) 02:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
10% rule - much firmer criterion. Altho Google is not very good at distinguishing EN pages, it's what we have to work with.
350 English pages for Žirmūnai -wikipedia -wikimedia -wapedia -viswiki.com -answers.com. [11]. So using this rule, we'd have to find about 35 pages for Zyrmuny that don't refer to the town in Belarus.
87 English pages for Zyrmuny -wikipedia -answers.com. [12] There were 9 result pages, 10 results on each page. I checked the first entry on each page, and all but one applied to the village in Belarus.
So far, there's one EN page that refers to this district as Zyrmuny. Novickas ( talk) 16:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
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This 2010 listing is significantly out of date. There are no sources from the 2010s onwards, and the demographics section relies entirely on the 2001 census (there have been two since then). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 16:36, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Žirmūnai is the most populous administrative division ( elderate) in Vilnius. It is also a neighbourhood in the Lithuanian capital city Vilnius, encompassing the city district of the same name. Artem.G ( talk) 15:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Žirmūnai was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Maybe we should divide the early history section in 3 parts, Zvejai, Tuskelenai, and Siaures miesteles? It's getting kind of long.
The Tuskulenai entry "... in order to service Vilnius Castles...". Service them in what way?
Alexander Rimsky-Korsakov - was he closely related to the musician? If not I think we shouldn't link to that article.
The White Little Manor - the description seems a little strange in the original reference. Why is it listed under Tuskenelu apŽvalga if it had no connection to it? Maybe wanting to distance themselves from Tuskenai's history? At any rate I think the part of the sentence that goes "no connection to Tuskelenai" should go.
"in January 1991, the victims of the January Events could be accessed for a farewell at the Palace." This sounds a little strange to my American ear. Access usually implies use of some sort. If someone could provide a reference for this, I could maybe come up with something else.
The mention of unintentional irony (in the recent street namings paragraph) seems a little out of place for Wikipedia. The ordinary reader would need a lot of background in regional history to see any irony. It would look to this hypothetical reader like "Hey, these were Lithuanian military heroes; why not name streets after them?"
Novickas 17:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC) PS much nicer info box picture
I'll remove the "irony" part, because most likely it was just a coincidence that Šiaurės Miestelis continues with that military "flavor". White Little Manor should stay, because 19th century buildings are very scarce in Žirmūnai. The bit about the "farewell" in the Sports Palace is due to my inability to translate the Lithuanian word "pašarvoti", i.e. to "display" a casket with the deceased so that the relatives etc might come up to stand in silence etc (the ref is
http://whatson.delfi.lt/archive/article.php?id=10036631 , mentioned in the article).
Juozas Rimas 20:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Probably it is time to press for GA, any objections? M.K. 17:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC) I think it's time. Novickas 17:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Standard crime statistics, or at least the easiest ones to find, are expressed as crimes per 1,000 persons per year. So I'm thinking we should take out the December 2005 crime rate (not the number of crimes) so as not to compare apples and oranges. Novickas 16:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe contributors who improved this article, would like to do the same with Vilnius? It is a bit shame that so nice city has a not fully developed article. So I just wondering maybe you all try to work on it too. A? M.K. 09:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
This idea sounds great to me. But somewhat daunting. The PL-LT wars almost made us lose Renata. (We might have gotten lucky with this article in the sense that it has not been derailed by controversy). The collaboration has been great, wish we could get together and celebrate, galbut kada nors (maybe sometime). In the meantime...let's encourage each other. Novickas 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
So Vilnius is next? Juozas are you with us? M.K. 18:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
My activity regarding the Žirmūnai article is partly related to the fact that I have lived in the neighborhood since I was born. But this means I also lived in Vilnius all the time, so why not enhance the Vilnius article? :) However, Vilnius is such a HUGE topic... Juozas Rimas 12:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So when we go to Vilnius? M.K. 22:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Am looking at Boston, Massachusetts, since it was a featured article, for ideas. A lot of the Vilnius talk page could be archived; M.K.? Novickas 13:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an excellent, comprehensive, well-written, informative and fascinating article. Well done to all involved!
This article is on hold for the following reasons:
When these objections are addressed feel free to contact me. Tarret 20:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, lets fix them. M.K. 23:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)P.S. Renata, why you stopped all sections needs prose style :)
Made some adjustments, needs copy edit, badly needs! M.K. 13:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC) P.S.I am not sure about first or add a fourth paragraph
Thanks Novickas for copy edit. Renata you meaningly left bullets in Other educational institutions in Žirmūnai include? M.K. 16:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is excellent. I know that those involved now want to move on to tidying up and improving the Vilnius article. After you've done that, perhaps you could consider editing the articles for the other districts/suburbs of Vilnius? It would be great if they were as detailed and well-written as this one.
And then after that perhaps other cities and towns of Lithuania.....?
It would be fantastic to make Wikipedia a detailed English-language source of info on Lithuania. Perhaps it could help promote the country and bring in more tourists?
Originally from the UK, I lived and worked in Vilnius for two years. I'm back in London now, but I'd be happy to help in any way I can.
-- Terryc 09:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In re The Ideal Communist City. This book is frequently cited but with different publication dates - some say "almost 40 years ago", some say "in the 1970s", one says "in the 1950s". Does anyone know enough Russian to find the actual Russian publication date? Novickas 20:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Added. It seems, though, that Žirmūnai were built earlier than the book was first published. But it's likely that the concept was "in the air" in Moscow University and Lithuanian architects were exposed to it directly. Juozas Rimas 21:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 20 kilometre, use 20 kilometre, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 20 kilometre.You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Tarret 21:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
What about the architectural style of the will-some-day-be-destroyed Sports Palace. So far more sources claim in favour of Brutalism than Constructivism. Iulius 13:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
How about "the Palace of Concerts and Sports, described in architectural literature as a notable example of either Constructivism or Brutalism ". Allows the reader to decide. Novickas 13:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Proposed some ideas in the peer review article, may be some one would be willing to discuss the actions? Iulius 16:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
User 213.52.162.226, per recent edits, thinks we should follow British usages in this article (e.g. River Neris vs. Neris River). The W. guidelines indicate that it should consistently go all one way or the other, any thoughts? Novickas 18:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I just spent several hour converting references into proper format using {{ cite web}}. Could someone with better knowledge of Polish and Russian covert refs #15, 16, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29? Thanks! Renata 09:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone ever found information online on the population of Lithuania's rural elderates? We are hesitating whether Žirmūnai's the most populous of all the elderates or just city elderates. The rural elderates might be larger but 47K people (could be 60K now easily) in Žirmūnai are a lot for Lithuania in absolute terms as well. Juozas Rimas 09:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Do we need any more references in this article? Iulius 09:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Presumably the reviewer wants the history in the lead paragraphs shortened? Does anyone know of some FAC city neighborhood articles that we could look at? Novickas 12:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Epbr123 11:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the apparently nonsensical IPA. Anyone know for sure? kwami ( talk) 07:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Armia Krajowa soldiers – who had been executed by the NKGB and MGB in the Vilnius' KGB Palace between 1944 and 1947. by user:Renata3 and who had been executed by the NKGB and MGB in the Vilnius' KGB Palace between 1944 and 1947 but also those who died fighting Polish Armia Krajowa soldiers. nu user:Jacurek is rather disturbing difference. A question - were there no AK soldiers burried after they surrendered and laid down the arms to the Red army in parade after the so called Operation Ostra Brama.-- Lokyz ( talk) 21:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Would you please stop using my name in the edit summarries. It is considered as Uncivil. Regarding insane - indeed it is insane trying to apply a Polish name to the 1960 establishment. Consider this before attempting to put an inappropriate name here. If you still think it has a place here you might think a Lithuanian name for Nowa Huta.-- Lokyz ( talk) 15:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
<-- Are you going to answer any questions that were posed to you, or just keep changing subjects from one to another and city to city. Now, THAT may be considered by some as uncivil or at least not conducive to a good faith discussion. So to answer your question, this has nothing to do with imperialism, Polish or otherwise and the population of Poles in Kiev is only a third of one percent as opposed to close to fifteen percent here. Also, even if Kijow should be in Kiev but it's not there, doesn't say anything about what should be in here. Now, let me ask again: 1) What is the relevance of the fact that Polish Wiki has articles titled "Waszyngton" and "Moskwa" to this article? 2) Is there a particular guideline, or at least a specific reason, why you think that including an editor's name in an edit summary is uncivil or is this just your own 'seeing teddy bears'? radek ( talk) 18:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, several of you have violated WP:3RR in this silly edit war. Keep it up and I'll block you for disrupting the article. If you cannot agree here, then ask for mediation. (Personally, I don't see why it's a problem to include the Polish or Russian, and the Polish is certainly not "dubious" as Lokyz claimed, but then I don't see why an English speaker would care about the Polish either, so either version seems acceptable to me.)
While we're here, if anyone knows what the "IPA" is supposed to be, it would be nice to get that cleaned up. With diacritics, is the city maybe " Žirmūnaĩ "? kwami ( talk) 21:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
<-- Actually, what you should do is file a case over at Sockpuppet investigations [3]. Be sure to really articulate your suspicions, the reasons for them and the evidence you've accumulated. If you're not gonna do it, then please don't make these empty threats and insulting insinuations. Actually, let me ask this clearly: Are you suggesting that I am Jacurek's sock puppet or vice versa? If not then I want you to categorically state that your above suggestion was just a (ill considered) joke and was not meant to be taken seriously. Seriously, accusing editors of suck puppetry for no reason at all, is not cool. radek ( talk) 04:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, I was operating under the assumption that everyone here was aware that the name "Zyrmuny" predates the official establishment of this suburb but perhaps not. So here it is, the name predates this official establishment. radek ( talk) 03:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone explain what is wrong with the neutrality or was the tag added just out of thin air?-- Lokyz ( talk) 06:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
(LOKYZ ! THIS IS TO MUCH YOU REMOVED THIS COMMENT. I'M WARNING YOU NOW. Reinserting my original question removed by Lokyz below.)
Should Russian name be also included here? I'm not sure about it but since there is the biggest Russian minority living in Žirmūnai and since the Russians developed Žirmūnai in the 1960's maybe it should be there?-- Jacurek ( talk) 23:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Should Russian name be also included here and if not, why? I may post this question on the Russian board to get more feedback. I think that since they developed the area and have substantial minority there, the Russian name should be next to the Polish one.-- Jacurek ( talk) 00:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Me: the name predates this official establishment. Lokyz:Any sources to support this allegation? English language preffered.--Lokyz (talk) 05:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The fact that a Belorusian village of the same name has existed since the 18th century (see Karol Podczaszyński) should be proof enough that the names predates the official establishment. radek ( talk) 17:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Now, since I've answered yet another one of your questions, would you mind answering at least, I dunno, three?... is that too much... make it two then, of mine:
I'm not letting you off the hook here - it's impossible to have a good faith, productive discussion if one side refuses to engage and answer questions and instead responds with only new questions and new empty accusations. I got to give some credit to MK here, at least he's trying to address the issue. radek ( talk) 17:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
A ya, it is connected to Spain, Germany, Norway and etc as well. Regarding "Hispanic" perhaps it is offensive to some, likewise perhaps it is offensive to some to be called "Polish". But I am confident that people will find the way to Oxford dictionary for the explanation [5]. M.K. (talk) 09:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
You're not seriously arguing that Vilnius' connection to Spain (or Germany, or Norway) is the same as Vilnius' connection to Poland? That would be quite something. As for Hispanic, Oxford dictionary also has other terms in it which are also now considered offensive. The fact that it hasn't caught up with the fact that many Latino/as do consider it offensive (most of them DON'T come from Hispaniola after all and have no connection to Spain) doesn't change that they do. And nobody's calling anyone Polish that doesn't want to be called that. Apparently some do want to forcibly "Lithuanize" the Poles that live in Lithuania though. radek ( talk) 17:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
MK: Both of you per WP:BURDEN should convince community that such "info" is needed, relevant and necessary. So far I saw only irrelevant personal related comments without any substance
If you had read the discussion carefully you'd seen that I've provided much more info and arguments other than "irrelevant personal related comments without any substance" (which appears to be Lokyz' specialty). But to reiterate and summarize: The other-language name should be included if EITHER (not both) of these reasons are satisfied:
Now, Zyrmuny satisfies BOTH of these criteria. The first because it has an almost 15% Polish minority. And the second because it is part of Vilnius which has very strong ties to Polish history and culture. Additionally - even though I consider this a bit of a red herring - the name predates the Soviet development. So in fact, the BURDEN is met twice over, double! As either one of these reasons should be sufficient. Now, I'm not gonna assume bad faith here and suggest that you just brought up WP:BURDEN to throw up a road block and that no matter what arguments are presented you will insist that it hasn't been met - but just wanted to make sure the possibility of someone somewhere acting in this way is on the table.
And yes, I would apply roughly the same criteria for Lithuanian names in Polish cities. And these criteria are consistent with how we deal with Breslau in Wroclaw and similar issues in Polish/German towns. So why should Poland/Lithuania be an exception? radek ( talk) 17:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
May I suggest that the above "BOTH" criteria are rather irrelevant without major consideration: Prevalence in English usage (since it is English wikipedia, after all, and translations are one mouse click away). Clarification: in the case of e.g., Wrocław/ Breslau the German name of a now Polish city has so a significant historical prominence that in can be seen in numerous English-language texts.
Second counter-argument: if we were talking about this old village of Zirmunai, it would make sense to use both historical names, regardless English usage. But in the case of district there is no historical usage: in Vilnuis it was in use only in Soviet times.
Finally, a remark about Russian term: IMO for an English reader it is rather useless: no significant usage is seen in google, but for the sake of redirect I'd rather add it, so that someone reading some translation of an old Russian text could find Zhirmunai in wikipedia. - Altenmann >t 01:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, argumentation for the inclusion of the irrelevant names was already disproved by others in several cases already. Just few brief repetition:
The featured article New York City doesn't have its Spanish name in the lead, even tho 24% of its population speak Spanish at home [8] and Latinos are an important part of its cultural history. Novickas ( talk) 13:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems like both Altenmann and M.K. are suggesting that the criteria for whether to include other names should be based on whether or not English literature uses a given name, past or present. Is this considered a sufficient condition for inclusion? radek ( talk) 18:04, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Add: Since the point of protecting the article is to give editors involved in a dispute a chance to come to an agreement or at least to fully discussed the issues under dispute, I would like to encourage/request the editors who object to other language names in this article to fully articulate their position in a detailed, precise manner (as I have done with my view above), or at least answer the question I posed right above. radek ( talk) 21:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Iulius. But I was more asking what would be sufficient to include other language names rather than what would be sufficient to exclude them in this particular instance. So this is a more general question which I'm asking because this seems to be a perennial conflict. Or another way to think about it is what kind of evidence or facts would be enough to change your mind here? But since you addressed the particular topic let me just say that
....and why exactly some people are trying to enforce "a ban" on Polish or Russian spelling of Lithuanian cities and suburbs after so many argument against such a behaviour?? What is so special about Lithuanian cities as oppose to all others? I have to be missing someting here...
Reminder - per Wikipedia:LEAD#Usage_in_first_sentence, alternate names in 1st sentence should reflect consensus. Novickas ( talk) 02:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
10% rule - much firmer criterion. Altho Google is not very good at distinguishing EN pages, it's what we have to work with.
350 English pages for Žirmūnai -wikipedia -wikimedia -wapedia -viswiki.com -answers.com. [11]. So using this rule, we'd have to find about 35 pages for Zyrmuny that don't refer to the town in Belarus.
87 English pages for Zyrmuny -wikipedia -answers.com. [12] There were 9 result pages, 10 results on each page. I checked the first entry on each page, and all but one applied to the village in Belarus.
So far, there's one EN page that refers to this district as Zyrmuny. Novickas ( talk) 16:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
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This 2010 listing is significantly out of date. There are no sources from the 2010s onwards, and the demographics section relies entirely on the 2001 census (there have been two since then). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 16:36, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Žirmūnai is the most populous administrative division ( elderate) in Vilnius. It is also a neighbourhood in the Lithuanian capital city Vilnius, encompassing the city district of the same name. Artem.G ( talk) 15:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)