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Something that always somewhat confuses me, or rather doesn't sit right with me is how it is pointed out here that the concept of atman differs fundamentally from the buddhist concept of anatman ( or AnattÄ in Pali ). If I understand it correctly, (and I use a bit of an unorthodox method to understand the world ( reading + feeling + magic sauce )), I believe that the concept of anatman ( which is more of a statement than a concept ) simply says that the highest truth is the realization that there is no atman, which is exactly the same as the "hinduistic (Advaita)" understanding that atman equals brahman ?! Imho anatman is not a fundamental difference in the philosophies, but rather a summary of Atman and Brahman. Opinions ? Marc Tschechne
See also: Talk:Atman
The distinctions between pantheism and panentheism have been the subject of debate both jhere and elsewhere for some time, but I will carefully point out the most obvious and pertinant fact in this matter: By the most widely agreed apon definition of Pantheism (God=Existence) and every description of Brahman I have found, Brahman is the sum total of all things, existence personified, the breath of live within us, Immanence. Finially I sternly rebuke your notion that Brahman is distinct from the monotheistic God, that is an opinion which I have only heard from Christians Jews and Muslims, and one which I am glad to have never heard before from a Hindu. Sanatana Dharama is an inclusivist faith, and does not seek to divide the religions of truth, but rather to enlighten others of the underlying unity. Sam [ Spade] 12:12, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well we generally agree, as helpful as that is. I understand and appreciate the diversity of thought within Hinduism, as I understand the philosophical intricacies which likely exist between the two of us on this very subject. I'm sure we could have a lengthy debate on God being limited by existance (a pointless question, since existance itself is infinate) as well as the unmanifest (something I would suggest might already exist, since God is "outside" time). All of this is in addition to the debate about the definition of pantheism and and panentheism, and the usefullness of distinguishing between the two (see a long debate here).
In summary, I find you to be an educated (I will wager you are better versed in the vedic literary tradition than I) yet opinionated individual. I myself am an opinionated preacher, perhaps even totalitarian, reductive, normative etc. I am not however pedantic, and fully accept the limitations of any sources when compared to God's direct word. Indeed my views and statements are not based on some single " lacunae" reading, but rather on careful meditation, deep prayer and intensive life experience (for example I find the gita a most agreeable book, having personally come to many of the same conclusions and observations previous to having read it). Regardless of source, an opinion is just that, a POV, and should not be stated as a fact within the article. If you can find a expert source stating that Brahman is panentheistic, I will find one stating that he is pantheistic. Until then, shall we allow the reader to make up his own mind? ;) Sam [ Spade] 12:17, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
oh.. The way I read the article it appeared to be taking a stand. I reworded it to make it more clear that this view is an opinion, not a presentation of one position as correct. I'm sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from, and hopefully you like my new wording. If not, feel free to do what is necessary ;) Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 15:27, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This article has an inacuracy. Atman is not "synonymous" with Brahman. Rather, Adi Shankara arrives at the conclusion that in fact atman is Brahman -- that atman is one with and absolutely identical with Brahman. But this does not mean the words are mere synomyms. If they were simply synomyms then this would not have required his arguments. In western style language atman is what we would call the soul or self, the individual witness. But Brahman is the Over-soul, the unified indivisible eternal Self. Adi Shankara arrives at the discovery that the two are one and the same. But they are not simply symantic synomyms. Synomyms are words that are simply interchcangable in any sentence like "rich" and "wealthy." How to express this slight shade of explanation will be difficult and I may attempt it at some later date unless someone else sees how to do so. Chris 12:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a reminder to all that this talk page, and Wikipedia in general, is not a forum for general discussion of this subject. Discussion here is specifically for improvement of the article Atman, its structure and references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.204.44 ( talk) 18:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
It seems this page tries to justify how Dvaita is better than Advaita? you quote from the Srimad Bhagavatam, hardly much from other sources... Stick to the topic! Domsta333 ( talk) 06:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Is there any link between the atlas bone supporting your head, atman in your head - and then of course atlantis being the pineal gland submerged by brain fluid? 220.101.166.244 ( talk) 12:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
When did Europeans "orientalists" beginning translating the sanscrit word atman as self? The world self doesn't come into wide usage in English until the 17th century; the german word "selbst" (via English) a bit later. Scholars of Indian religion and philosophy should be attentive to the superimposition of the the word self into translations of Sanscrit literature (which probably occurred during the 18th and 19the centuries), and which may have distorted the subtly and nuance of atman as not equating perfectly with what Europeans of the time understood by the word self. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwd123 ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Speaking of which, the etymology section is self-contradictory. The way it is written now, it seems to indicate that the Sanskrit word atman is derived from the Latin word anima. I'm not strong with Indo-Iranian languages, so I'm not sure if that is or can be true. But, then it goes on to say that the Sanskrit word anilah is a cognate with anima but that anilah and atman are not etymologically related. If, however, two words are cognates then they should be derived from the same word or one should be borrowed from the other. And if atman is derived from animus, and anilah and animus are derived from the same source, then they would all be etymologically related. 67.220.13.11 ( talk) 12:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The "Yoga" subsection, under "Schools of thought" has been challenged as not being an accurate description of yoga or the views of yoga about Atman. That implies that it needs to be re-written, or removed, since the source is not representative of yogic thought generally. Sunray ( talk) 01:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
The question you pose: dualistic or monistic? is key, IMO. The source suggests it is dualistic, yet Raja Yoga is generally described as monistic (i.e., beyond dualism). Here's a source we might use:
"The action of breaking, or removing the walls that contain human consciousness so as to bring about a “union†of the individual self (jivatman) with the supreme self (paramatman), is the goal or purpose of the practice of yoga, and, it would seem, this is only possible through the body. The body becomes the mediating vehicle, or mesocosm, which stands between the individual, human world order (microcosm) and absolute, cosmic reality (macrocosm). This monistic vision implies a boundless unity between the individual and the world, or the microcosm and the macrocosm. This monistic philosophy, which became known as Vedanta (lit. “The end of the Vedas), transformed the dualistic Vedic worldview..."
"... the dualist, metaphysical framework from which Patanjali’s yoga emerged, namely the Samkhya school of philosophy, has caused many students and scholars of yoga to distinguish between it and later, and especially tantric developments of yoga.[7] Upanisadic speculation into the nature of the universe and the relation of the individual soul to it inspired new forms of yoga (e.g. jnanayoga, bhaktiyoga, etc.), which had monistic metaphysical frameworks as their basis. Tantric metaphysics carried this to its logical conclusion: imploding body (microcosm), individual soul (mesocosm), and divine soul (macrocosm), into one. It also developed concrete and coherent methods, like Laya, Kundalini and Hatha yoga..." —from "Patanjali’s Yoga Darsana – The Hatha Yoga Tradition," InfoRefuge.
It seems to me that the source in that section is over-generalizing about yoga based on early (Samkhya) texts. Patanjali, essentially bridged the development between dualistic views and the now more prevalent monistic ones. Sunray ( talk) 00:24, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
The Samkhya and Yoga section of the article refers to Vedic worldview as dualistic. While, Vedic worldview has been called Pantheistic [1], Panentheistic [2] and even Agnostic [3] calling it dualistic is novel way of describing it. Since, such a description is rare, further citation should be provided (other than the InfoRefuge one) or the word "dualistic" should be removed from the sentence. CorrectKnowledge ( talk) 01:22, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed an image from the lead section as it did not appear to be related to the topic. If an image is added there, please make sure it is helpful to the topic and its relation to the topic is made clear to the reader. Hoverfish Talk 17:38, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
The article states that:
Buddhism has defined nirvana as that blissful state when a person realizes that he or she has "no self, no soul".
This seems far too simplistic. I am well aware that there are Buddhists who think like this, and of course there is the obligatory reference, which seems satisfactory enough, but it has been my experience that those knowledgeable about the issue of the Self in Buddhism will often take a much more nuanced view than the one provided here.
Perhaps someone with more expertise could clarify?
169.226.221.49 ( talk) 22:12, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that the Buddhism-section is too simplistic. Theravda-orthodoxy rejects the notion of Atman, yet Mahayana Buddhism has plenty of similar ideas, with Buddha-nature and the Dharmakaya. There's more to Buddhism than "no Atman." See also Precanonical Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:35, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
@JJ: Davis agrees with Murti, but they both are just acknowledging what is in the Buddhist canons and what the vast majority of Buddhism scholars have published. Harvey, Williams, Bronkhorst, Gombrich, King, Trainor, Plott, Gethin, Conze, Collins, Buswell, and so on. Atman/soul/self is a metaphysical concept, it is not sublatable, it is not qualia (to allege so is strange OR). On Arvind Sharma, pages 55-57 has a discussion on "self versus no-self" positions of "Hinduism versus Buddhism" respectively, in this same vein. I will take another look at Sharma's book and see if there is something else we could summarize here. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
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The term Atma means breath and should be translated as Life Breath or Life Odem. It could in no way depict the soul of a beeing which is called Kshetrajna. It is also not the individual spirit of a being which is called non-Atman or Jiva (Jivatma) which is the active force of a being while Atma is described as inactive and only witnessing which connects it with Karma. The Jiva (individual spirit) is a product of the incorporated Atma at the 1st birth of a being. Both Atma and the Jiva are situated in the heart, while Kshetrajna is situated in the blood. The heart keeps the blood flowing and thus the body becomes living.-- 80.133.253.60 ( talk) 12:11, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Per my readings on Swaminarayan Theology I understand that their belief on the Jiva/Atman differs from other Vedant schools (advait, dvait, etc). In the Vedant paragraph, the beliefs associated with Dvait, Advait, Vishishtadvaita and Bheda Abheda are briefly mentioned. I am curious as to why you reverted this paragraph? ping Joshua Jonathan
Apollo1203 ( talk) 14:24, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Atma
Regarding this edit: I don't think this specific work might conflict WP:RS, the source itself is coauthored by a well recognized scholar, Dr. Satyanarayana Dasa, with numerous reception from other academic scholars as well, which we can clearly see from this particular source material. Given that, detracting the source is a serious smear on the material. — WikiLinuz ( talk) 13:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
In many religious, philosophical, and mythological traditions, the soul is the incorporeal essence of a living being. Soul or psyche (Ancient Greek: ψυχή psykhḗ, of ψÏχειν psýkhein, "to breathe", cf. Latin 'anima') comprises the mental abilities of a living being: reason, character, feeling, consciousness, qualia, memory, perception, thinking, etc.
@ Joshua Jonathan: Yes, and I've good reasons why this translation might hurt the true meaning of "Atma":
I don't see a problem with using "soul". Soul may be widely used in Christianity and Abrihamic religions in general, but there isn't one meaning within Christianity, which the meaning has evolved over time. Some interpret it as breath of life from God, while others see it as a combination of that breath and the physical body, still others interpret it as being coupled with knowledge, memories and emotions as portrayed in many popular movies, etc. Christianity is the biggest religion, so using "soul" is alright and makes it easier to understand for more people as long as you further define it (e.g. not limited to humans, separate from the physical and subtle bodies, etc.). "Self" is more accurate, but some may interpret it as ego or including body (myself), so it too has to be further defined. It still stands that most people are more familiar with the term "soul" than "Self", as was mentioned in one of the notes that "soul" is the most common translation of "atman". Jroberson108 ( talk) 03:22, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
Three things:
Thanks, Wham2001 ( talk) 08:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
there should be an atman article for buddhism, not only just hinduism, since these form separate concepts in different dharmic Indian religions. Lord saturnus ( talk) 18:33, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
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Something that always somewhat confuses me, or rather doesn't sit right with me is how it is pointed out here that the concept of atman differs fundamentally from the buddhist concept of anatman ( or AnattÄ in Pali ). If I understand it correctly, (and I use a bit of an unorthodox method to understand the world ( reading + feeling + magic sauce )), I believe that the concept of anatman ( which is more of a statement than a concept ) simply says that the highest truth is the realization that there is no atman, which is exactly the same as the "hinduistic (Advaita)" understanding that atman equals brahman ?! Imho anatman is not a fundamental difference in the philosophies, but rather a summary of Atman and Brahman. Opinions ? Marc Tschechne
See also: Talk:Atman
The distinctions between pantheism and panentheism have been the subject of debate both jhere and elsewhere for some time, but I will carefully point out the most obvious and pertinant fact in this matter: By the most widely agreed apon definition of Pantheism (God=Existence) and every description of Brahman I have found, Brahman is the sum total of all things, existence personified, the breath of live within us, Immanence. Finially I sternly rebuke your notion that Brahman is distinct from the monotheistic God, that is an opinion which I have only heard from Christians Jews and Muslims, and one which I am glad to have never heard before from a Hindu. Sanatana Dharama is an inclusivist faith, and does not seek to divide the religions of truth, but rather to enlighten others of the underlying unity. Sam [ Spade] 12:12, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well we generally agree, as helpful as that is. I understand and appreciate the diversity of thought within Hinduism, as I understand the philosophical intricacies which likely exist between the two of us on this very subject. I'm sure we could have a lengthy debate on God being limited by existance (a pointless question, since existance itself is infinate) as well as the unmanifest (something I would suggest might already exist, since God is "outside" time). All of this is in addition to the debate about the definition of pantheism and and panentheism, and the usefullness of distinguishing between the two (see a long debate here).
In summary, I find you to be an educated (I will wager you are better versed in the vedic literary tradition than I) yet opinionated individual. I myself am an opinionated preacher, perhaps even totalitarian, reductive, normative etc. I am not however pedantic, and fully accept the limitations of any sources when compared to God's direct word. Indeed my views and statements are not based on some single " lacunae" reading, but rather on careful meditation, deep prayer and intensive life experience (for example I find the gita a most agreeable book, having personally come to many of the same conclusions and observations previous to having read it). Regardless of source, an opinion is just that, a POV, and should not be stated as a fact within the article. If you can find a expert source stating that Brahman is panentheistic, I will find one stating that he is pantheistic. Until then, shall we allow the reader to make up his own mind? ;) Sam [ Spade] 12:17, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
oh.. The way I read the article it appeared to be taking a stand. I reworded it to make it more clear that this view is an opinion, not a presentation of one position as correct. I'm sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from, and hopefully you like my new wording. If not, feel free to do what is necessary ;) Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 15:27, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This article has an inacuracy. Atman is not "synonymous" with Brahman. Rather, Adi Shankara arrives at the conclusion that in fact atman is Brahman -- that atman is one with and absolutely identical with Brahman. But this does not mean the words are mere synomyms. If they were simply synomyms then this would not have required his arguments. In western style language atman is what we would call the soul or self, the individual witness. But Brahman is the Over-soul, the unified indivisible eternal Self. Adi Shankara arrives at the discovery that the two are one and the same. But they are not simply symantic synomyms. Synomyms are words that are simply interchcangable in any sentence like "rich" and "wealthy." How to express this slight shade of explanation will be difficult and I may attempt it at some later date unless someone else sees how to do so. Chris 12:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a reminder to all that this talk page, and Wikipedia in general, is not a forum for general discussion of this subject. Discussion here is specifically for improvement of the article Atman, its structure and references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.204.44 ( talk) 18:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
It seems this page tries to justify how Dvaita is better than Advaita? you quote from the Srimad Bhagavatam, hardly much from other sources... Stick to the topic! Domsta333 ( talk) 06:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Is there any link between the atlas bone supporting your head, atman in your head - and then of course atlantis being the pineal gland submerged by brain fluid? 220.101.166.244 ( talk) 12:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
When did Europeans "orientalists" beginning translating the sanscrit word atman as self? The world self doesn't come into wide usage in English until the 17th century; the german word "selbst" (via English) a bit later. Scholars of Indian religion and philosophy should be attentive to the superimposition of the the word self into translations of Sanscrit literature (which probably occurred during the 18th and 19the centuries), and which may have distorted the subtly and nuance of atman as not equating perfectly with what Europeans of the time understood by the word self. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwd123 ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Speaking of which, the etymology section is self-contradictory. The way it is written now, it seems to indicate that the Sanskrit word atman is derived from the Latin word anima. I'm not strong with Indo-Iranian languages, so I'm not sure if that is or can be true. But, then it goes on to say that the Sanskrit word anilah is a cognate with anima but that anilah and atman are not etymologically related. If, however, two words are cognates then they should be derived from the same word or one should be borrowed from the other. And if atman is derived from animus, and anilah and animus are derived from the same source, then they would all be etymologically related. 67.220.13.11 ( talk) 12:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The "Yoga" subsection, under "Schools of thought" has been challenged as not being an accurate description of yoga or the views of yoga about Atman. That implies that it needs to be re-written, or removed, since the source is not representative of yogic thought generally. Sunray ( talk) 01:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
The question you pose: dualistic or monistic? is key, IMO. The source suggests it is dualistic, yet Raja Yoga is generally described as monistic (i.e., beyond dualism). Here's a source we might use:
"The action of breaking, or removing the walls that contain human consciousness so as to bring about a “union†of the individual self (jivatman) with the supreme self (paramatman), is the goal or purpose of the practice of yoga, and, it would seem, this is only possible through the body. The body becomes the mediating vehicle, or mesocosm, which stands between the individual, human world order (microcosm) and absolute, cosmic reality (macrocosm). This monistic vision implies a boundless unity between the individual and the world, or the microcosm and the macrocosm. This monistic philosophy, which became known as Vedanta (lit. “The end of the Vedas), transformed the dualistic Vedic worldview..."
"... the dualist, metaphysical framework from which Patanjali’s yoga emerged, namely the Samkhya school of philosophy, has caused many students and scholars of yoga to distinguish between it and later, and especially tantric developments of yoga.[7] Upanisadic speculation into the nature of the universe and the relation of the individual soul to it inspired new forms of yoga (e.g. jnanayoga, bhaktiyoga, etc.), which had monistic metaphysical frameworks as their basis. Tantric metaphysics carried this to its logical conclusion: imploding body (microcosm), individual soul (mesocosm), and divine soul (macrocosm), into one. It also developed concrete and coherent methods, like Laya, Kundalini and Hatha yoga..." —from "Patanjali’s Yoga Darsana – The Hatha Yoga Tradition," InfoRefuge.
It seems to me that the source in that section is over-generalizing about yoga based on early (Samkhya) texts. Patanjali, essentially bridged the development between dualistic views and the now more prevalent monistic ones. Sunray ( talk) 00:24, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
The Samkhya and Yoga section of the article refers to Vedic worldview as dualistic. While, Vedic worldview has been called Pantheistic [1], Panentheistic [2] and even Agnostic [3] calling it dualistic is novel way of describing it. Since, such a description is rare, further citation should be provided (other than the InfoRefuge one) or the word "dualistic" should be removed from the sentence. CorrectKnowledge ( talk) 01:22, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed an image from the lead section as it did not appear to be related to the topic. If an image is added there, please make sure it is helpful to the topic and its relation to the topic is made clear to the reader. Hoverfish Talk 17:38, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
The article states that:
Buddhism has defined nirvana as that blissful state when a person realizes that he or she has "no self, no soul".
This seems far too simplistic. I am well aware that there are Buddhists who think like this, and of course there is the obligatory reference, which seems satisfactory enough, but it has been my experience that those knowledgeable about the issue of the Self in Buddhism will often take a much more nuanced view than the one provided here.
Perhaps someone with more expertise could clarify?
169.226.221.49 ( talk) 22:12, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that the Buddhism-section is too simplistic. Theravda-orthodoxy rejects the notion of Atman, yet Mahayana Buddhism has plenty of similar ideas, with Buddha-nature and the Dharmakaya. There's more to Buddhism than "no Atman." See also Precanonical Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:35, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
@JJ: Davis agrees with Murti, but they both are just acknowledging what is in the Buddhist canons and what the vast majority of Buddhism scholars have published. Harvey, Williams, Bronkhorst, Gombrich, King, Trainor, Plott, Gethin, Conze, Collins, Buswell, and so on. Atman/soul/self is a metaphysical concept, it is not sublatable, it is not qualia (to allege so is strange OR). On Arvind Sharma, pages 55-57 has a discussion on "self versus no-self" positions of "Hinduism versus Buddhism" respectively, in this same vein. I will take another look at Sharma's book and see if there is something else we could summarize here. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
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The term Atma means breath and should be translated as Life Breath or Life Odem. It could in no way depict the soul of a beeing which is called Kshetrajna. It is also not the individual spirit of a being which is called non-Atman or Jiva (Jivatma) which is the active force of a being while Atma is described as inactive and only witnessing which connects it with Karma. The Jiva (individual spirit) is a product of the incorporated Atma at the 1st birth of a being. Both Atma and the Jiva are situated in the heart, while Kshetrajna is situated in the blood. The heart keeps the blood flowing and thus the body becomes living.-- 80.133.253.60 ( talk) 12:11, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Per my readings on Swaminarayan Theology I understand that their belief on the Jiva/Atman differs from other Vedant schools (advait, dvait, etc). In the Vedant paragraph, the beliefs associated with Dvait, Advait, Vishishtadvaita and Bheda Abheda are briefly mentioned. I am curious as to why you reverted this paragraph? ping Joshua Jonathan
Apollo1203 ( talk) 14:24, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Atma
Regarding this edit: I don't think this specific work might conflict WP:RS, the source itself is coauthored by a well recognized scholar, Dr. Satyanarayana Dasa, with numerous reception from other academic scholars as well, which we can clearly see from this particular source material. Given that, detracting the source is a serious smear on the material. — WikiLinuz ( talk) 13:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
In many religious, philosophical, and mythological traditions, the soul is the incorporeal essence of a living being. Soul or psyche (Ancient Greek: ψυχή psykhḗ, of ψÏχειν psýkhein, "to breathe", cf. Latin 'anima') comprises the mental abilities of a living being: reason, character, feeling, consciousness, qualia, memory, perception, thinking, etc.
@ Joshua Jonathan: Yes, and I've good reasons why this translation might hurt the true meaning of "Atma":
I don't see a problem with using "soul". Soul may be widely used in Christianity and Abrihamic religions in general, but there isn't one meaning within Christianity, which the meaning has evolved over time. Some interpret it as breath of life from God, while others see it as a combination of that breath and the physical body, still others interpret it as being coupled with knowledge, memories and emotions as portrayed in many popular movies, etc. Christianity is the biggest religion, so using "soul" is alright and makes it easier to understand for more people as long as you further define it (e.g. not limited to humans, separate from the physical and subtle bodies, etc.). "Self" is more accurate, but some may interpret it as ego or including body (myself), so it too has to be further defined. It still stands that most people are more familiar with the term "soul" than "Self", as was mentioned in one of the notes that "soul" is the most common translation of "atman". Jroberson108 ( talk) 03:22, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
Three things:
Thanks, Wham2001 ( talk) 08:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
there should be an atman article for buddhism, not only just hinduism, since these form separate concepts in different dharmic Indian religions. Lord saturnus ( talk) 18:33, 26 November 2022 (UTC)