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This archive page covers approximately the dates between March 2005 and October 2005.
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 15:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I contest the validity of that vote because it is not clear how Úbeda is a special case justifying a specific vote. To be consistent with that vote result, we could excise all diacritics on Wikipedia, and it is quite clear that there is no consensus for that. This specific vote just reflects an insufficient and non-representative sample of users who happened to come across this. Why move Úbeda to Ubeda but not São Paulo to Sao Paulo? This is a general question that has to be decided elsewhere. As long as there is no general consensus to remove all similar diacritics, this article should remain at Úbeda in conformity with the existing general practice. NoPuzzleStranger 09:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If there is no article on a person (or whatever other topic), it should be redlinked, to make that obvious, not interwiki-linked. Adding internal interwiki-links, instead of just wikifying, also makes it impossible to use the "What links here"-function from the unwritten article to see if there are any ingoing links that might be useful to check out. / Uppland 15:01, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NoPuzzleStranger for someone who has just created an account you are very aggressive. Me thinks you have done this before. As two people object to the interwiki links, I will desist from linking in the names of the two people. Personally I think it is a good idea because it would allow someone who was interested to translate the Spanish text into English and create the articls for those two people.
I intend to re-instate the link to the interwiki to the Spanish town as it for fills two useful functions.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 10:03, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It could be written "Ubeda, also written Úbeda," or "Úbeda, also written Ubeda," but that does not convey as much information as "Ubeda (Spanish: Úbeda)". Philip Baird Shearer 14:56, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removing the diacritic-less spelling from the first paragraph is clearly counter to the Manual of Style guidelines. That said, having an interwiki link to the Spanish version of the article in the intro seems non-standard, and redundant with the interwiki link in the left margin (assuming default skin/css). I'd follow the lead of Montreal, among others, and keep it simple: "Ubeda or Úbeda is a city...". Niteowlneils 00:05, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(excuse shouting) we need a new policy page, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (diacritics). The issue has been beaten to death at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), and Philip still confuses orthography and language ("Ubeda (Spanish: Úbeda)"). In any case, this is not something that should be discussed on individual talk pages. We need a policy, or at least guidelines, and a list of precedents, on how to handle names with diacritics. It does not fall under "use English", and we should really address this intelligently and from all angles, because the same discussion is reiterated on lots of unrelated pages, ad nauseam. dab (ᛏ) 17:53, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
ps, the case at hand perfectly demonstrates the need for such a policy. Why would we actively move Úbeda to Ubeda, but keep Jaén (province) etc.? Note that the redirects are in place, and Ubeda and Zurich work in either case. Also note the potential for disambiguation of diacritics (that's why they are called diacritics in the first place): No need for Panini (scholar) if we can have Pāṇini. dab (ᛏ) 17:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NoPuzzleStranger added this comment into the history of the page anything with diacritics is "often written without" in English, this is no special case.
Including the word Ubeda without diacritics helps external search engines to find the name when it is entered using a typical English search engine like www.google.co.uk or www.ask.com. NoPuzzleStranger by removing the diacritic free version you are stopping many English speaking people from finding this article. For the sake of a few words why will you not allow others to help others? Philip Baird Shearer 19:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I repeat, this is no special case. Do you want to include a stripped version in every article with a diacritic in the title? If not, the reader must think that there is a real English name here. Actually Google finds Úbeda just fine, even when searching for "Ubeda". But regardless of that, you're mixing editorial and technical issues. We don't include things just for the sake of some search engine. NoPuzzleStranger 20:19, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
When working with a German Müller, she used to get very vexed that most Brits in the organisation could not hear the difference no matter how often she tried to explain the difference between Muller and Müller let alone pronounce the difference. There is a add which is currently running on Britsh TV for Müller yougart and the voice over pronounces it Muller. The Müller web site in the UK is http://www.muller.co.uk/ because they know that no-one will type in http://www.müller.co.uk
Does that help explain why there ought to be a version of the word without diacritics on a page to help English speaking people find it? -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:01, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In many many case articles are written with words without diacritics. Most of the problems seem to arise when people start to add diacritics in the mistaken belief that it is correct to do so in English (not realising that it is just as correct not to do so). They are often people who's mother tongue is not English. You have no way of knowing that the majority of Wikipedians agree with your position. The guidelines already say "Only use the native spelling as an article title if it is commonly used in English". So as you will see in the search below as Ubeda is 6 times more common than Úbeda in this case seems to be that Ubeda is common English usage. So I do not think you are standing on very thick ice when making such an assertion. Particularlly when you are willing to ride roughshot over a consensus poll which was carried out here and try to reverse a move agreed after a WP:RM poll.
You are not using the standard settings for www.google.co.uk. Which country are you in? With standard settings as used in the UK www.google.co.uk returns: Results 1 - 10 of about 59,500 English pages for Ubeda; Results 1 - 10 of about 7,740 English pages for Úbeda. It differentiates between the two and most people in England will not use any flags. Also other web search engines (like "ask Jeeves") differentiate between the two Philip Baird Shearer 13:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I'm Juan, I live in Jaén (Spain) and I'm very impressed because of this discussion. Úbeda is a Spanish name, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so I think this article must be renamed Úbeda. Why? Because Ubeda is a word that DOESN'T EXIST. Spanish diacritics are used in order to know how to pronunce the word, and you are ignoring it. If an ubetense (person from Úbeda) sees this article, I'm sure that he or she will be offended by the vote. Please, don't forget that English people are not the ones that use Wikipedia. 217.217.131.215 12:47, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think that's a different case. Zürich is a very known city, and it has a Spanish spelling: Zúrich. The same happens with Paris -> París, Porto -> Oporto, Berlin -> Berlín... They are words that have been admited in Spanish. But, there isn't an English word for Úbeda, so, if it's difficult for you typing Úbeda, redirect Ubeda to Úbeda. At the moment, the correct spelling redirects to the incorrect spelling. It isn't very logical...
Moreover, the Zurich article redirects to the Zürich one. Why don't you do the same with Úbeda? Johnbojaen 15:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Philip Baird Shearer 09:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
From the History of the Page:
Given the two guidlines I mention above, please explain why you have made this edit. Philip Baird Shearer 19:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The discussion below was on my talk page. Philip Baird Shearer suggested that discussion should take place here instead, so I have moved the discussion from my talk page to here. -- Curps 05:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Our paths cross again. Perhaps you did not realise but the move of Ubeda to Úbeda was agreed in a WP:RM move, (see Talk:Úbeda#Requested move: Úbeda ? Ubeda). To move it back to Úbeda you must have used administrative privileges. Please revert the move and if you wish the page to be moved please place a new request on WP:RM because as you know that is the Wikipedia way of reducing conflict as you can not know at the moment if there is a consensus to move the page again. Philip Baird Shearer 10:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I can't move it because it is locked to ordiary users due to two edits. Philip Baird Shearer 08:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Normally I do not do it. As can be see from the history of the page (assuming that it still exists to you as an administrator, it was left with only one edit from the time it was moved after the WP:RM vote until I moved it back after Kolokol moved it. But AFACT there is no policy against it, and it is a useful tool to stop revert wars over page moves forcing a WP:RM. In this case the person seems to be unreasonable so I have no qualms over using the second edit.
I do not think you should remove the history of today's edits on the Úbeda page as it showed Kolokol's abuse of the 3RR rule. BTW I notice that you have now had to edit the page yet again for a sockpuppet user:K010k01. How do you think I should handle reverts by the same person to Ubeda?
Personally I do not mind what the page name is providing (a) moving it does not violate any agreement (which this does) and (b) that all the alternative names are mentioned close to the start of the article. But as a rule it seems silly to put "Ááéíóú (in English also Aaeiou)" when "Aeiou (language:Ááéíóú)" conveys the same information but more elegantly.
Oh yes as to the survey: In the last month every vote case has been against using funny foreign squiggles in page names. The current count is 49 supporting to to 39 opposing this is hardly a convincing majority for a policy and it seems appropriate for a case by case decision. But I think that the Talk:Ubeda is the place to argue the toss over this page name and first line content so I'll say no more about that issue here. Philip Baird Shearer 17:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Even if the straw poll was 49 to 1, you know and I know that the Wikipedia guidelines are frequently ignored. Before the straw poll people in favour of squiggles were forever moving pages and ignoring the guidelines. (As they still do). As you know it is fundamentally an argument over is this an English language Encyclopaedia or an International one.
I hate getting involved in an "Article for deletion" (or whatever it is called this month) because people make up the rules as they go along, trumping any appeal to the guidlines with "this is the custom around here".
I can site at two Wikipedia guidelines which have been broken this article name and first line:
But that is not stopping the person masquerading as Kolokol and now K0l0k0l. BTW what is the point of banning someone for 3RR if they just create a new account and do the same things again? [4] Kolokol is so far off the range of Wikipedia reasonable I am not sure what can be done, because Kolokol's behaviour wastes a lot of time for everyone.
I am not going to rehash the arguments in the previous sections here over why it should be Ubeda. (We can do that if there is another vote). But go and have a look at WP:RM there are a number of votes going on at the moment on whether to use funny squiggles on certain words. In these cases a local WP:RM vote has to take priority because otherwise there is little point holding the votes in the first place. Who other than the participants in the consensus building can decide whether the request to move a page is within the guidelines or a valid exception to the guidelines? A 60% majority vote to move once every six months keeps some stability to controversial page names and reduces conflict for everyone. Do we really want Zurich moved backwards and forwards every time a new person arrives at the page and decides that it is wrong? As a rule of thumb a consensus to move a page is normally considered to have fixed it for six months and if someone wishes to move it back then after six months they can ask for another WP:RM. That seems to work well for other pages (see Talk:Schutzstaffel for an example which comes to mind) I do not see why this page should be different. Philip Baird Shearer 09:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
In spanish you can drop the diacritic on an initial letter. But I wonder, do we really need to look at spanish writing rules in an english wikipedia? We will than need a list for every initial-diacrtic-languages that states how it is handled. Shouldn't we look how it is handled in english? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) says:
"If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages like Spanish or French should need no transliteration" (This is probably the case here.)
It also says:
"[T]he majority opinion (albeit with significant dissent) seems to be that "whenever the most common English spelling is simply the native spelling with diacritical marks omitted, the native spelling should be used"
I don't see any good reason in the discussion above for why this should not be at Úbeda. Wikipedia uses diacritics in cases like this. São Paulo is a good example. So is Écija.
I Support a move back to Úbeda if anyone wants to start a new vote. I acknowledge that I have not worked on this page and I've never been to Úbeda. Generally I think the opinions of people actually working on the article should be given precedence over those of an outsider (me, in this instance).
- Haukur Þorgeirsson, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
As it has been established that Spanish usage (like French) allows for the omission of diacritics when the letter is capitalised, then the uncapitalised name should be used, as it's correct in both languages. (See also my suggestion in the previous section concerning a naming resource page.) -- Mel Etitis ( ??? ??????) 15:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Your right about the tradition. It is a tradition in English to strip all funny foreign squiggles not just those on capitals. In this case using Google on the UK domin in a ratio of about eighty to one in favour of Ubeda. -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:50, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
FYI Provisional IRA is not more accurate, it is used in Wikipedia for disambiguation purposes, as it was by others, because for a time (in the 70's) there were two IRAs, but technically the provisional IRA only existed for a short time before claiming that they were the IRA as the "Official" IRA gave up the armed struggle the disambiguation need for Provisional was removed from current affairs. Sinn Fein uses the term IRA [5] so does Ian Paisley and the DUP "Sinn Fein/IRA" (not "Sinn Fein/PIRA") [6]. The British Army until quite recently prefered the term PIRA, Provisionals or Provos, but they now use the term IRA [7] as well as PIRA [8] (they probably continue with PIRA as a disambiguation with the CIRA and the RIRA [9]).
One can narrow the search with google to [-Úbeda Ubeda site:guardian.co.uk] and [Úbeda -Ubeda site:guardian.co.uk] site:washingtonpost.com, site:nytimes.com etc. To check what is used in newspapers. To which the answer seems to be Ubeda if it is mentioned at all.
Diacritics which exist on words tend to be those which are being absorbed into English and as a rule they get dropped over time. Few English hôtels if any would use that spelling.
The point is that it is not wrong to strip diacritics from a letter than it is to add an "s" to a word of foreign origin to make it a plural in English. Just as it would be wrong to say that a word which has not been absorbed into English can not be spelt in an English text with diacritics.
As there is not English equivalent to the Academie Francaise, I suppose that the closest is the OED, but it records usage, so the best guide for Wikipedia is common usage.-- Philip Baird Shearer 22:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I am opposed to using diacritics in all article titles except for a handful that might qualify as 'most common' such as "Nescafé". Also, many community pages have already been moved to diacritic-less forms long ago, such as Montreal and Quebec. Also, standard IE (by far the most-used browser) installations support fewer of the diacritics, so plain text serves the most readers best, as well as conforming with 'most common' conventions. Niteowlneils 20:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Some articles are exempt from a naming policy due to individual reasons related directly to that article. In this case:
I therefore see no reason why this shouldn't come under the general naming policy, with a move request conducted to bring it back to Ubeda if required. I think consistency is very important. violet/riga (t) 12:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Conversations in edit summaries are not very effective so I'll take it here. Kolokol asks:
"will you add this to all articles with diacritics?"
Would it be terrible if we did? It seems that many Wikipedians want an ASCII version to be included in cases like this and I don't see any harm in it. In fact it seems like a nice compromise to me. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 17:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
You and I agree on the principle, I just happen to think that mine is more informative and fits the guidelines better. If the page was moved to Úbeda then you would be able to argue that your wording fitted the guidelines better, and reluctently I concede the point. Philip Baird Shearer 15:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, move back to "Úbeda" and then do the changes in the article. Has anybody still a valid objection? -- Pjacobi 16:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes. If you want to move it you must put in a WP:RM to advertise the move -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that if Philip feels we need an RM for a legitimate move then we probably do. As much as it pains me to admit it the poll on city names with diacritics is currently running at 55/40, which is not consensus - not even by the watered down 60% definition of it. We're still five support votes short of that. So it can't really be regarded as set-in-stone policy. The wording of the poll was also probably not clear enough. I doubt a lot of people realized they were voting for moving Mexico to México. And many didn't realize that the vote only applied to place names. Maybe a new poll is needed - though I don't exactly relish the prospects. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
As for this particular case I strongly support the more academic, more pedantic and more information-preserving title. If I understand Philip right he feels that "most common" trumps all else. That's such a fundamental disagreement that it leaves very little to discuss.
I would, however, doubt that Ubeda is the most common spelling in the most relevant sources. All that's been shown is that it's most common on the web. But what about printed sources? What about most common in reference works? Britannica, for example, has its article at Úbeda. See Talk:Freya for an example where the most common usage in printed books on the subject seems to be different from the most common usage on the web.
But if you feel that the important criterion is most common irrespective of source, i.e. giving the EB equal weight to a tourist's blog, then it may well be that Ubeda is the most common way of referring to the city in English language sources. After all there are probably 50 people who'll blog about their trip to Ubeda for every published book that mentions it. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Ubeda → Úbeda – Use Spanish diacritics as WP:UE tells us to do for proper names where no common English name exists and as we normally do for Spanish names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I was wondering how the previous move vote had slipped by without my seeing it, until I realised it was posted on Easter Sunday and resolved the following Friday: no accusations of bad faith, but that does coincide with Semana Santa, when half the Spanish-speaking population of the world is either in Church or at the beach. –Hajor 21:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment: "But the move should be possible without a RM request." -- Philip Baird Shearer, 08:25, 27 Mar 2005, see below -- Curps 22:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment: "Ú" is in WGL4 and so is widely supported. It's even in ISO/IEC 8859-1. -- Pjacobi 08:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
More comments: "Úbeda" isn't commonly used in English, so arguments about which is the more common spelling are fruitless. Moreover, there are at least two places to look: the Internet (on which typing makes it easier to omit the accent even if one normally uses it, and formatting often removes accents even when the author included them [it's happened to me]) and print, where the same constraints don't apply. (My own informal research indicates that the accented version wins hands down in the latter.) -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:09, 17
Yeah, that's how it seemed to me too. I found one mention with a Ú in the Independent but otherwise it was Ubeda all the way where I looked. Needless to say I don't think that's important. This small Spanish town does not have a commonly used English name and so falls under this case in WP:UE:
We're even explicitly told not to transliterate Spanish names. I don't see anything special about this case which warrants special treatment. If we're not to use diacritics in the names of relatively small, relatively unknown Spanish towns - best known for their associations with some people who don't have an article here yet - then I don't see any diacritics which we should keep. If Ubeda then why not Nescafe? They both have more Google hits than their counterparts with the diacritics.
As for common usage as a guideline - if we were to try to chase down common usage in English I think we should look at common usage in reference works rather than common usage in newspapers or common usage on the web. Just about any name you can think of will be more commonly spelled without its diacritics on the English speaking web. Common usage is a poor guideline in these cases. We should use the more pedantic information preserving representations of the names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 23:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It is neither right or wrong to write Ubeda or Úbeda in English. But Ubeda is more common and Wikipeida guidelines advise most common usage. Philip Baird Shearer 09:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. –Hajor 14:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The final result appears to have been 14-7. -- Curps 15:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
As you can see in es:Ubeda, Úbeda is the city of Jaén described in this article and Ubeda is a village of Alicante. I think we don't have to discuss anymore about it. Johnbojaen 17:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm saying that this article is about Úbeda, not about Ubeda, so it should rest in the page called Úbeda. If the average English speaker can't see the difference, we must write a warning text in both articles. Something like
This article is about Úbeda, in Jaén. For the Ubeda in Alicante, see Ubeda
and
This article is about Ubeda, in Alicante. For the Úbeda in Jaén, see Úbeda
Don't you agree? Johnbojaen 23:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
No I don't. If disambiguation were needed and I am not convinced that it is (as the Alicante article is not written), it should be "Ubeda, Jaen" and "Ubeda, Alicante" or if this vote is closed in favour of "Úbeda": "Úbeda, Jaén" and "Ubeda, Alicante". Philip Baird Shearer 09:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
For inclusion when the article is unprotected: is this right -- (IPA: ['uβeða]) ? –Hajor 19:50, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe that there is consensus that no user here should make a unilateral change to this article until the debate has been closed here. Unfortunately, one user (almost certainly just one person) has kept reverting the article and pre-empting the community decission. This user has shown the ability to user sock puppets to evade blocking under WP:3RR. Having got fed up with the listof anagramatic socks, I've protected the page from editing. This is not something I wanted to do, but, when the history page has so many reverts that you're unable to see the last constructive edit, things have go out of hand. I propose that the page stay protected until the title discussion is closed. -- Gareth Hughes 19:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between March 2005 and October 2005.
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 15:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I contest the validity of that vote because it is not clear how Úbeda is a special case justifying a specific vote. To be consistent with that vote result, we could excise all diacritics on Wikipedia, and it is quite clear that there is no consensus for that. This specific vote just reflects an insufficient and non-representative sample of users who happened to come across this. Why move Úbeda to Ubeda but not São Paulo to Sao Paulo? This is a general question that has to be decided elsewhere. As long as there is no general consensus to remove all similar diacritics, this article should remain at Úbeda in conformity with the existing general practice. NoPuzzleStranger 09:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If there is no article on a person (or whatever other topic), it should be redlinked, to make that obvious, not interwiki-linked. Adding internal interwiki-links, instead of just wikifying, also makes it impossible to use the "What links here"-function from the unwritten article to see if there are any ingoing links that might be useful to check out. / Uppland 15:01, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NoPuzzleStranger for someone who has just created an account you are very aggressive. Me thinks you have done this before. As two people object to the interwiki links, I will desist from linking in the names of the two people. Personally I think it is a good idea because it would allow someone who was interested to translate the Spanish text into English and create the articls for those two people.
I intend to re-instate the link to the interwiki to the Spanish town as it for fills two useful functions.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 10:03, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It could be written "Ubeda, also written Úbeda," or "Úbeda, also written Ubeda," but that does not convey as much information as "Ubeda (Spanish: Úbeda)". Philip Baird Shearer 14:56, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removing the diacritic-less spelling from the first paragraph is clearly counter to the Manual of Style guidelines. That said, having an interwiki link to the Spanish version of the article in the intro seems non-standard, and redundant with the interwiki link in the left margin (assuming default skin/css). I'd follow the lead of Montreal, among others, and keep it simple: "Ubeda or Úbeda is a city...". Niteowlneils 00:05, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(excuse shouting) we need a new policy page, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (diacritics). The issue has been beaten to death at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), and Philip still confuses orthography and language ("Ubeda (Spanish: Úbeda)"). In any case, this is not something that should be discussed on individual talk pages. We need a policy, or at least guidelines, and a list of precedents, on how to handle names with diacritics. It does not fall under "use English", and we should really address this intelligently and from all angles, because the same discussion is reiterated on lots of unrelated pages, ad nauseam. dab (ᛏ) 17:53, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
ps, the case at hand perfectly demonstrates the need for such a policy. Why would we actively move Úbeda to Ubeda, but keep Jaén (province) etc.? Note that the redirects are in place, and Ubeda and Zurich work in either case. Also note the potential for disambiguation of diacritics (that's why they are called diacritics in the first place): No need for Panini (scholar) if we can have Pāṇini. dab (ᛏ) 17:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NoPuzzleStranger added this comment into the history of the page anything with diacritics is "often written without" in English, this is no special case.
Including the word Ubeda without diacritics helps external search engines to find the name when it is entered using a typical English search engine like www.google.co.uk or www.ask.com. NoPuzzleStranger by removing the diacritic free version you are stopping many English speaking people from finding this article. For the sake of a few words why will you not allow others to help others? Philip Baird Shearer 19:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I repeat, this is no special case. Do you want to include a stripped version in every article with a diacritic in the title? If not, the reader must think that there is a real English name here. Actually Google finds Úbeda just fine, even when searching for "Ubeda". But regardless of that, you're mixing editorial and technical issues. We don't include things just for the sake of some search engine. NoPuzzleStranger 20:19, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
When working with a German Müller, she used to get very vexed that most Brits in the organisation could not hear the difference no matter how often she tried to explain the difference between Muller and Müller let alone pronounce the difference. There is a add which is currently running on Britsh TV for Müller yougart and the voice over pronounces it Muller. The Müller web site in the UK is http://www.muller.co.uk/ because they know that no-one will type in http://www.müller.co.uk
Does that help explain why there ought to be a version of the word without diacritics on a page to help English speaking people find it? -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:01, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In many many case articles are written with words without diacritics. Most of the problems seem to arise when people start to add diacritics in the mistaken belief that it is correct to do so in English (not realising that it is just as correct not to do so). They are often people who's mother tongue is not English. You have no way of knowing that the majority of Wikipedians agree with your position. The guidelines already say "Only use the native spelling as an article title if it is commonly used in English". So as you will see in the search below as Ubeda is 6 times more common than Úbeda in this case seems to be that Ubeda is common English usage. So I do not think you are standing on very thick ice when making such an assertion. Particularlly when you are willing to ride roughshot over a consensus poll which was carried out here and try to reverse a move agreed after a WP:RM poll.
You are not using the standard settings for www.google.co.uk. Which country are you in? With standard settings as used in the UK www.google.co.uk returns: Results 1 - 10 of about 59,500 English pages for Ubeda; Results 1 - 10 of about 7,740 English pages for Úbeda. It differentiates between the two and most people in England will not use any flags. Also other web search engines (like "ask Jeeves") differentiate between the two Philip Baird Shearer 13:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I'm Juan, I live in Jaén (Spain) and I'm very impressed because of this discussion. Úbeda is a Spanish name, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so I think this article must be renamed Úbeda. Why? Because Ubeda is a word that DOESN'T EXIST. Spanish diacritics are used in order to know how to pronunce the word, and you are ignoring it. If an ubetense (person from Úbeda) sees this article, I'm sure that he or she will be offended by the vote. Please, don't forget that English people are not the ones that use Wikipedia. 217.217.131.215 12:47, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think that's a different case. Zürich is a very known city, and it has a Spanish spelling: Zúrich. The same happens with Paris -> París, Porto -> Oporto, Berlin -> Berlín... They are words that have been admited in Spanish. But, there isn't an English word for Úbeda, so, if it's difficult for you typing Úbeda, redirect Ubeda to Úbeda. At the moment, the correct spelling redirects to the incorrect spelling. It isn't very logical...
Moreover, the Zurich article redirects to the Zürich one. Why don't you do the same with Úbeda? Johnbojaen 15:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Philip Baird Shearer 09:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
From the History of the Page:
Given the two guidlines I mention above, please explain why you have made this edit. Philip Baird Shearer 19:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The discussion below was on my talk page. Philip Baird Shearer suggested that discussion should take place here instead, so I have moved the discussion from my talk page to here. -- Curps 05:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Our paths cross again. Perhaps you did not realise but the move of Ubeda to Úbeda was agreed in a WP:RM move, (see Talk:Úbeda#Requested move: Úbeda ? Ubeda). To move it back to Úbeda you must have used administrative privileges. Please revert the move and if you wish the page to be moved please place a new request on WP:RM because as you know that is the Wikipedia way of reducing conflict as you can not know at the moment if there is a consensus to move the page again. Philip Baird Shearer 10:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I can't move it because it is locked to ordiary users due to two edits. Philip Baird Shearer 08:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Normally I do not do it. As can be see from the history of the page (assuming that it still exists to you as an administrator, it was left with only one edit from the time it was moved after the WP:RM vote until I moved it back after Kolokol moved it. But AFACT there is no policy against it, and it is a useful tool to stop revert wars over page moves forcing a WP:RM. In this case the person seems to be unreasonable so I have no qualms over using the second edit.
I do not think you should remove the history of today's edits on the Úbeda page as it showed Kolokol's abuse of the 3RR rule. BTW I notice that you have now had to edit the page yet again for a sockpuppet user:K010k01. How do you think I should handle reverts by the same person to Ubeda?
Personally I do not mind what the page name is providing (a) moving it does not violate any agreement (which this does) and (b) that all the alternative names are mentioned close to the start of the article. But as a rule it seems silly to put "Ááéíóú (in English also Aaeiou)" when "Aeiou (language:Ááéíóú)" conveys the same information but more elegantly.
Oh yes as to the survey: In the last month every vote case has been against using funny foreign squiggles in page names. The current count is 49 supporting to to 39 opposing this is hardly a convincing majority for a policy and it seems appropriate for a case by case decision. But I think that the Talk:Ubeda is the place to argue the toss over this page name and first line content so I'll say no more about that issue here. Philip Baird Shearer 17:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Even if the straw poll was 49 to 1, you know and I know that the Wikipedia guidelines are frequently ignored. Before the straw poll people in favour of squiggles were forever moving pages and ignoring the guidelines. (As they still do). As you know it is fundamentally an argument over is this an English language Encyclopaedia or an International one.
I hate getting involved in an "Article for deletion" (or whatever it is called this month) because people make up the rules as they go along, trumping any appeal to the guidlines with "this is the custom around here".
I can site at two Wikipedia guidelines which have been broken this article name and first line:
But that is not stopping the person masquerading as Kolokol and now K0l0k0l. BTW what is the point of banning someone for 3RR if they just create a new account and do the same things again? [4] Kolokol is so far off the range of Wikipedia reasonable I am not sure what can be done, because Kolokol's behaviour wastes a lot of time for everyone.
I am not going to rehash the arguments in the previous sections here over why it should be Ubeda. (We can do that if there is another vote). But go and have a look at WP:RM there are a number of votes going on at the moment on whether to use funny squiggles on certain words. In these cases a local WP:RM vote has to take priority because otherwise there is little point holding the votes in the first place. Who other than the participants in the consensus building can decide whether the request to move a page is within the guidelines or a valid exception to the guidelines? A 60% majority vote to move once every six months keeps some stability to controversial page names and reduces conflict for everyone. Do we really want Zurich moved backwards and forwards every time a new person arrives at the page and decides that it is wrong? As a rule of thumb a consensus to move a page is normally considered to have fixed it for six months and if someone wishes to move it back then after six months they can ask for another WP:RM. That seems to work well for other pages (see Talk:Schutzstaffel for an example which comes to mind) I do not see why this page should be different. Philip Baird Shearer 09:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
In spanish you can drop the diacritic on an initial letter. But I wonder, do we really need to look at spanish writing rules in an english wikipedia? We will than need a list for every initial-diacrtic-languages that states how it is handled. Shouldn't we look how it is handled in english? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) says:
"If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages like Spanish or French should need no transliteration" (This is probably the case here.)
It also says:
"[T]he majority opinion (albeit with significant dissent) seems to be that "whenever the most common English spelling is simply the native spelling with diacritical marks omitted, the native spelling should be used"
I don't see any good reason in the discussion above for why this should not be at Úbeda. Wikipedia uses diacritics in cases like this. São Paulo is a good example. So is Écija.
I Support a move back to Úbeda if anyone wants to start a new vote. I acknowledge that I have not worked on this page and I've never been to Úbeda. Generally I think the opinions of people actually working on the article should be given precedence over those of an outsider (me, in this instance).
- Haukur Þorgeirsson, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
As it has been established that Spanish usage (like French) allows for the omission of diacritics when the letter is capitalised, then the uncapitalised name should be used, as it's correct in both languages. (See also my suggestion in the previous section concerning a naming resource page.) -- Mel Etitis ( ??? ??????) 15:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Your right about the tradition. It is a tradition in English to strip all funny foreign squiggles not just those on capitals. In this case using Google on the UK domin in a ratio of about eighty to one in favour of Ubeda. -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:50, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
FYI Provisional IRA is not more accurate, it is used in Wikipedia for disambiguation purposes, as it was by others, because for a time (in the 70's) there were two IRAs, but technically the provisional IRA only existed for a short time before claiming that they were the IRA as the "Official" IRA gave up the armed struggle the disambiguation need for Provisional was removed from current affairs. Sinn Fein uses the term IRA [5] so does Ian Paisley and the DUP "Sinn Fein/IRA" (not "Sinn Fein/PIRA") [6]. The British Army until quite recently prefered the term PIRA, Provisionals or Provos, but they now use the term IRA [7] as well as PIRA [8] (they probably continue with PIRA as a disambiguation with the CIRA and the RIRA [9]).
One can narrow the search with google to [-Úbeda Ubeda site:guardian.co.uk] and [Úbeda -Ubeda site:guardian.co.uk] site:washingtonpost.com, site:nytimes.com etc. To check what is used in newspapers. To which the answer seems to be Ubeda if it is mentioned at all.
Diacritics which exist on words tend to be those which are being absorbed into English and as a rule they get dropped over time. Few English hôtels if any would use that spelling.
The point is that it is not wrong to strip diacritics from a letter than it is to add an "s" to a word of foreign origin to make it a plural in English. Just as it would be wrong to say that a word which has not been absorbed into English can not be spelt in an English text with diacritics.
As there is not English equivalent to the Academie Francaise, I suppose that the closest is the OED, but it records usage, so the best guide for Wikipedia is common usage.-- Philip Baird Shearer 22:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I am opposed to using diacritics in all article titles except for a handful that might qualify as 'most common' such as "Nescafé". Also, many community pages have already been moved to diacritic-less forms long ago, such as Montreal and Quebec. Also, standard IE (by far the most-used browser) installations support fewer of the diacritics, so plain text serves the most readers best, as well as conforming with 'most common' conventions. Niteowlneils 20:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Some articles are exempt from a naming policy due to individual reasons related directly to that article. In this case:
I therefore see no reason why this shouldn't come under the general naming policy, with a move request conducted to bring it back to Ubeda if required. I think consistency is very important. violet/riga (t) 12:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Conversations in edit summaries are not very effective so I'll take it here. Kolokol asks:
"will you add this to all articles with diacritics?"
Would it be terrible if we did? It seems that many Wikipedians want an ASCII version to be included in cases like this and I don't see any harm in it. In fact it seems like a nice compromise to me. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 17:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
You and I agree on the principle, I just happen to think that mine is more informative and fits the guidelines better. If the page was moved to Úbeda then you would be able to argue that your wording fitted the guidelines better, and reluctently I concede the point. Philip Baird Shearer 15:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, move back to "Úbeda" and then do the changes in the article. Has anybody still a valid objection? -- Pjacobi 16:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes. If you want to move it you must put in a WP:RM to advertise the move -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that if Philip feels we need an RM for a legitimate move then we probably do. As much as it pains me to admit it the poll on city names with diacritics is currently running at 55/40, which is not consensus - not even by the watered down 60% definition of it. We're still five support votes short of that. So it can't really be regarded as set-in-stone policy. The wording of the poll was also probably not clear enough. I doubt a lot of people realized they were voting for moving Mexico to México. And many didn't realize that the vote only applied to place names. Maybe a new poll is needed - though I don't exactly relish the prospects. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
As for this particular case I strongly support the more academic, more pedantic and more information-preserving title. If I understand Philip right he feels that "most common" trumps all else. That's such a fundamental disagreement that it leaves very little to discuss.
I would, however, doubt that Ubeda is the most common spelling in the most relevant sources. All that's been shown is that it's most common on the web. But what about printed sources? What about most common in reference works? Britannica, for example, has its article at Úbeda. See Talk:Freya for an example where the most common usage in printed books on the subject seems to be different from the most common usage on the web.
But if you feel that the important criterion is most common irrespective of source, i.e. giving the EB equal weight to a tourist's blog, then it may well be that Ubeda is the most common way of referring to the city in English language sources. After all there are probably 50 people who'll blog about their trip to Ubeda for every published book that mentions it. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Ubeda → Úbeda – Use Spanish diacritics as WP:UE tells us to do for proper names where no common English name exists and as we normally do for Spanish names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I was wondering how the previous move vote had slipped by without my seeing it, until I realised it was posted on Easter Sunday and resolved the following Friday: no accusations of bad faith, but that does coincide with Semana Santa, when half the Spanish-speaking population of the world is either in Church or at the beach. –Hajor 21:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment: "But the move should be possible without a RM request." -- Philip Baird Shearer, 08:25, 27 Mar 2005, see below -- Curps 22:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment: "Ú" is in WGL4 and so is widely supported. It's even in ISO/IEC 8859-1. -- Pjacobi 08:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
More comments: "Úbeda" isn't commonly used in English, so arguments about which is the more common spelling are fruitless. Moreover, there are at least two places to look: the Internet (on which typing makes it easier to omit the accent even if one normally uses it, and formatting often removes accents even when the author included them [it's happened to me]) and print, where the same constraints don't apply. (My own informal research indicates that the accented version wins hands down in the latter.) -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:09, 17
Yeah, that's how it seemed to me too. I found one mention with a Ú in the Independent but otherwise it was Ubeda all the way where I looked. Needless to say I don't think that's important. This small Spanish town does not have a commonly used English name and so falls under this case in WP:UE:
We're even explicitly told not to transliterate Spanish names. I don't see anything special about this case which warrants special treatment. If we're not to use diacritics in the names of relatively small, relatively unknown Spanish towns - best known for their associations with some people who don't have an article here yet - then I don't see any diacritics which we should keep. If Ubeda then why not Nescafe? They both have more Google hits than their counterparts with the diacritics.
As for common usage as a guideline - if we were to try to chase down common usage in English I think we should look at common usage in reference works rather than common usage in newspapers or common usage on the web. Just about any name you can think of will be more commonly spelled without its diacritics on the English speaking web. Common usage is a poor guideline in these cases. We should use the more pedantic information preserving representations of the names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 23:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It is neither right or wrong to write Ubeda or Úbeda in English. But Ubeda is more common and Wikipeida guidelines advise most common usage. Philip Baird Shearer 09:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. –Hajor 14:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The final result appears to have been 14-7. -- Curps 15:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
As you can see in es:Ubeda, Úbeda is the city of Jaén described in this article and Ubeda is a village of Alicante. I think we don't have to discuss anymore about it. Johnbojaen 17:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm saying that this article is about Úbeda, not about Ubeda, so it should rest in the page called Úbeda. If the average English speaker can't see the difference, we must write a warning text in both articles. Something like
This article is about Úbeda, in Jaén. For the Ubeda in Alicante, see Ubeda
and
This article is about Ubeda, in Alicante. For the Úbeda in Jaén, see Úbeda
Don't you agree? Johnbojaen 23:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
No I don't. If disambiguation were needed and I am not convinced that it is (as the Alicante article is not written), it should be "Ubeda, Jaen" and "Ubeda, Alicante" or if this vote is closed in favour of "Úbeda": "Úbeda, Jaén" and "Ubeda, Alicante". Philip Baird Shearer 09:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
For inclusion when the article is unprotected: is this right -- (IPA: ['uβeða]) ? –Hajor 19:50, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe that there is consensus that no user here should make a unilateral change to this article until the debate has been closed here. Unfortunately, one user (almost certainly just one person) has kept reverting the article and pre-empting the community decission. This user has shown the ability to user sock puppets to evade blocking under WP:3RR. Having got fed up with the listof anagramatic socks, I've protected the page from editing. This is not something I wanted to do, but, when the history page has so many reverts that you're unable to see the last constructive edit, things have go out of hand. I propose that the page stay protected until the title discussion is closed. -- Gareth Hughes 19:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
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