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The sentence "The Republic of Ireland has yet to apologise for De Valera's response to Hitler's death" implies that an apology is due. As deV said "I could have had a diplomatic illness, but I abhor that king of thing". I suggest that the paragraph be removed as it is pov ClemMcGann 18:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
"While this would be irrelevant to many today, one result of illegitimacy in the late 19th/early 20th century was that one was barred from a career in the Roman Catholic Church. Éamon de Valera was throughout his life a deeply religious man, who in death asked to be buried in a religious habit. There are a number of occasions where de Valera seriously contemplated entering the religious life like his half-brother, Fr. Thomas Wheelwright. Yet he did not do so, and apparently received little encouragement from the priests whose advice he sought. In his biography of de Valera, Tim Pat Coogan speculated about whether questions surrounding de Valera's legitimacy may have been a deciding factor."
I've removed this section because it's not correct. As it says in the article from the old Catholic Encyclopedia, he still could have become a cleric by entering religious life. See the oCE article on "Defect of Birth" -- 206.15.101.44 13:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Nice rewrite. Am I not correct in thinking, though, that he couldn't have been ordained to any... um, don't know the correct term, but let me call it 'priestly' order. E.g., he couldn't have become a Jesuit, because that order is composed of full priests. But he could have become a Christian Brother, because they are not priest? Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 12:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the text about this subject because it was sheer unsourced speculation. -- Red King ( talk) 13:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I've slimmed down Mr Campos and addeds refs for his fundraising - gross & net - not quite $6m. Red Hurley 14:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope this won't be too much of a personal curiosity instead of a constructive comment - but I am wondering about some lines in the final 'Overview' section that state:
"A notable failure was his attempt to reverse the provision of the 1937 Constitution in relation to the electoral system. On retiring as Taoiseach in 1959, he proposed that the Proportional Representation system enshrined in that constitution should be replaced. A constitutional referendum to ratify this was comprehensively defeated by the people."
Why did de Valera want to reform the electoral system? There are no citations about it. To me it's unclear whether this is supposed to mean a failure of statesmanship or judgment on de Valera's part, or simply to report that the proposal failed to pass the referendum. I assume from the rest of the Overview that the former is more likely. But why should this be considered among failures that might 'outweigh his achievements' and diminish his reputation among today's historians? Coming as it does between criticism of defrauding Press investors and 'disastrous' economic policy it just seems weirdly trivial, as if part of the story is missing. Independent of the article, I would really like to know more about this incident if anyone can enlighten me.
As regards the article, I know I don't really have the authority to pronounce on this, but in my opinion the Overview as a whole is kinda confusing and confused. If it's supposed to be an overview of criticisms of de Valera rather than a general overview/closing summary type thing, then the title is misleading. It also spends time refuting its own point about his effect on Catholic conservatism and makes the dubious claim that de Valera's idealism directly resulted in 'national stagnation' (which is backed up by a quote about his entire generation that attributes the stagnation to the Church, the IRA, and the economy). I think some of the 1st two paragraphs could be reorganized as well. Just my two cents. The article is great! And I'm sorry if this is irritating or in bad taste, it's my first post. -- Differentpolice 15:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there really a need to have this after his name. It's not like it is a strange name or a funny spelt one. BigDunc 20:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The article, in its present state, fails to explain how de Valera went from suffering civil war defeat with the anti-Treaty Republicans to leading the same side to victory, less than 10 years later, in the 1932 general election. How did he and Fianna Fail suddenly become popular enough to win the election? -- Tocino 23:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Bias It seems to me that this page is biased towards the Michael Collins/Free State side.It is reinforcing the anti-de Valera/anti-republican opinion. The author clearly does not like deV and has gone to some trouble to discredit de Valera making him out to be a spineless coward stylising himself as a hero. I agree with UTC this list seems to be merely a list of criticisms of de Velara instead of a balanced and impartial description of his life. De Velara was a great political thinker and devoted his life to Irish freedom and rights, not a devious liar who deluded the Irish public. This article is weak, biased and opinionated it spends far too much time on de Velaras supposed illegitamate birth. This disturbing trend seems to have spread to other Irish independance/civil war articles biased towards the treatites. DeVelara was a great political mind who deserves respect.[WF] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.67.178 ( talk) 21:18, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the categories Cuban-Americans, Cuban-Irish people and Spanish-American from the article because there is no evidence that De Valera's father was from Cuba or was a Spanish American. I have left the category Spanish-Irish people because Catherine Coll said De Valera's father was Spanish. Without getting into the Who was Dev's father debate, Juan Vivion de Valera managed to live his entire life without leaving any paper trail (See Tim Pat Coogan's biography). So without knowing definitely where De Valera's father was from, these categories are speculative. Snappy56 16:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"from ambushes and other tactics that were allowing the British to successfully portray it as a terrorist group,[neutrality disputed] and to " I agree with this statement and see it as fact rather than opinion 58.107.193.254 04:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous IP suggested that this article was incorrectly rated as A-class, and changed the rating to B-class, claiming there was no discussion or rationale. However, the article was peer reviewed (albeit only short commentary was made and no conclusion was reported) and is a former FAC.
Given that a couple of years has passed since the PR, and the article was cited, perhaps this article should either have it's rating reverted, or be put forth as a candidate for a suitable rating, or both. -- Setanta 22:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
With reference to what I said, I'm pasting the auto peer review output here for reference:
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
{{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Setanta 22:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I added the section about the message sent to the moon by de Valera for NASA. The source is:
Fabfivefreddy ( talk) 07:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I have added a quotes section of some of Dev's views. Will add more as I continue to read Ferriters book. 194.46.254.89 ( talk) 22:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The sentence "The Republic of Ireland has yet to apologise for De Valera's response to Hitler's death" implies that an apology is due. As deV said "I could have had a diplomatic illness, but I abhor that king of thing". I suggest that the paragraph be removed as it is pov ClemMcGann 18:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
"While this would be irrelevant to many today, one result of illegitimacy in the late 19th/early 20th century was that one was barred from a career in the Roman Catholic Church. Éamon de Valera was throughout his life a deeply religious man, who in death asked to be buried in a religious habit. There are a number of occasions where de Valera seriously contemplated entering the religious life like his half-brother, Fr. Thomas Wheelwright. Yet he did not do so, and apparently received little encouragement from the priests whose advice he sought. In his biography of de Valera, Tim Pat Coogan speculated about whether questions surrounding de Valera's legitimacy may have been a deciding factor."
I've removed this section because it's not correct. As it says in the article from the old Catholic Encyclopedia, he still could have become a cleric by entering religious life. See the oCE article on "Defect of Birth" -- 206.15.101.44 13:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Nice rewrite. Am I not correct in thinking, though, that he couldn't have been ordained to any... um, don't know the correct term, but let me call it 'priestly' order. E.g., he couldn't have become a Jesuit, because that order is composed of full priests. But he could have become a Christian Brother, because they are not priest? Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 12:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the text about this subject because it was sheer unsourced speculation. -- Red King ( talk) 13:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I've slimmed down Mr Campos and addeds refs for his fundraising - gross & net - not quite $6m. Red Hurley 14:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope this won't be too much of a personal curiosity instead of a constructive comment - but I am wondering about some lines in the final 'Overview' section that state:
"A notable failure was his attempt to reverse the provision of the 1937 Constitution in relation to the electoral system. On retiring as Taoiseach in 1959, he proposed that the Proportional Representation system enshrined in that constitution should be replaced. A constitutional referendum to ratify this was comprehensively defeated by the people."
Why did de Valera want to reform the electoral system? There are no citations about it. To me it's unclear whether this is supposed to mean a failure of statesmanship or judgment on de Valera's part, or simply to report that the proposal failed to pass the referendum. I assume from the rest of the Overview that the former is more likely. But why should this be considered among failures that might 'outweigh his achievements' and diminish his reputation among today's historians? Coming as it does between criticism of defrauding Press investors and 'disastrous' economic policy it just seems weirdly trivial, as if part of the story is missing. Independent of the article, I would really like to know more about this incident if anyone can enlighten me.
As regards the article, I know I don't really have the authority to pronounce on this, but in my opinion the Overview as a whole is kinda confusing and confused. If it's supposed to be an overview of criticisms of de Valera rather than a general overview/closing summary type thing, then the title is misleading. It also spends time refuting its own point about his effect on Catholic conservatism and makes the dubious claim that de Valera's idealism directly resulted in 'national stagnation' (which is backed up by a quote about his entire generation that attributes the stagnation to the Church, the IRA, and the economy). I think some of the 1st two paragraphs could be reorganized as well. Just my two cents. The article is great! And I'm sorry if this is irritating or in bad taste, it's my first post. -- Differentpolice 15:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there really a need to have this after his name. It's not like it is a strange name or a funny spelt one. BigDunc 20:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The article, in its present state, fails to explain how de Valera went from suffering civil war defeat with the anti-Treaty Republicans to leading the same side to victory, less than 10 years later, in the 1932 general election. How did he and Fianna Fail suddenly become popular enough to win the election? -- Tocino 23:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Bias It seems to me that this page is biased towards the Michael Collins/Free State side.It is reinforcing the anti-de Valera/anti-republican opinion. The author clearly does not like deV and has gone to some trouble to discredit de Valera making him out to be a spineless coward stylising himself as a hero. I agree with UTC this list seems to be merely a list of criticisms of de Velara instead of a balanced and impartial description of his life. De Velara was a great political thinker and devoted his life to Irish freedom and rights, not a devious liar who deluded the Irish public. This article is weak, biased and opinionated it spends far too much time on de Velaras supposed illegitamate birth. This disturbing trend seems to have spread to other Irish independance/civil war articles biased towards the treatites. DeVelara was a great political mind who deserves respect.[WF] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.67.178 ( talk) 21:18, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the categories Cuban-Americans, Cuban-Irish people and Spanish-American from the article because there is no evidence that De Valera's father was from Cuba or was a Spanish American. I have left the category Spanish-Irish people because Catherine Coll said De Valera's father was Spanish. Without getting into the Who was Dev's father debate, Juan Vivion de Valera managed to live his entire life without leaving any paper trail (See Tim Pat Coogan's biography). So without knowing definitely where De Valera's father was from, these categories are speculative. Snappy56 16:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"from ambushes and other tactics that were allowing the British to successfully portray it as a terrorist group,[neutrality disputed] and to " I agree with this statement and see it as fact rather than opinion 58.107.193.254 04:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous IP suggested that this article was incorrectly rated as A-class, and changed the rating to B-class, claiming there was no discussion or rationale. However, the article was peer reviewed (albeit only short commentary was made and no conclusion was reported) and is a former FAC.
Given that a couple of years has passed since the PR, and the article was cited, perhaps this article should either have it's rating reverted, or be put forth as a candidate for a suitable rating, or both. -- Setanta 22:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
With reference to what I said, I'm pasting the auto peer review output here for reference:
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
{{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Setanta 22:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I added the section about the message sent to the moon by de Valera for NASA. The source is:
Fabfivefreddy ( talk) 07:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I have added a quotes section of some of Dev's views. Will add more as I continue to read Ferriters book. 194.46.254.89 ( talk) 22:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |