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The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 13:58, 18 April * 2006 (UTC)
== Requested move ==
Proposal : | Éamon de Valera/Archive 2 ? Éamon de Valera |
Rationale : | "as deV used the Irish spelling" |
Proposer : | David |
Please add * Support or * Oppose followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~".
Relative to the general standard of Wikipedia articles, this article seems weak. There is unsourced speculation and editorialising at several points. I made one attempt to change one particularly glaring example - "However, at the time and in the emotions of the moment, it lowered the respect for him held by people in combatant countries, who did not always fully appreciate the points and who were also influenced by indignation at his official and diplomatically proper condolences on the death of Hitler", but this was immediately reverted. I think there are more serious issues here than the spelling of the name. Buyo
True. A day. Buyo
Tayana 15:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"reland's dominant political personality for many decades, as well as co-owner of one of Ireland's most influential group of newspapers, Irish Press Newspapers, de Valera is alleged by critics to have kept Ireland under the influence of Catholic conservatism, though to his credit his constitution did explicitly recognise the existence and rights of the Jewish community in Ireland in 1937, at a time when much of Europe was beginning the process of wholesale extermination of Jews."
This is in the overview...is the phrase "exterminating the jews" alittle strong and inaccurate given that we are talking about 1937? In 1937 the large scale and organised extermination had not begun. Could someone perhaps look at changing this? -Colin MacDonald
Re the most recent changes reverted back:
Dev was also used in Kevin Boland's Up Dev . In that case, and in others, it was the typesetter who was responsible. Texts physically written by people who knew deV and historians, as opposed to typeset or typed by others, use deV. As to the fada, deV made a point of using an Irish spelling of his name, hence the one 'n' not two, the normal english spelling of Eamonn. I have come across deV's signature in various documents in the National Archives and other papers, and he used the fada until his eyesight failed in the 1950s because while he could still do his signature in one go while effectively blind, he was hopeless at knowing where to put the fada in at the end as he had no visual guide as to where he had written the E. And if he stopped having written the E to add in the fada, he then had difficulty knowing where to write the amon as he could not see the É to join the rest to. FearÉIREANN 21:07, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Re 'Dev' (and 'De Valera', moreover), what do you think about this [1] image? Cill Ros 00:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Can we solve this issue of the spelling once and for all and perhaps have a vote on it? Even the article is no longer consistant. The intro uses a different spelling to the article title and infobox and this is frequently an issue with reversion (although not always the primary reason). Djegan 11:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
De Valera died in Linden Convalescent Home, Blackrock, not Lynden as spelt in the article(I should know, the housing estate that now occupies the site is right beside my house.)
I can't believe how POV the sections ofthis article on the Treaty and the Civil War were. From reading what was here, you'd think that DV single handedly started the civil war instead of being dragged unwilling into it. And is there any evidence that he wouldn't even read the treaty when it was brought home? Isn't this a little, petty anyway? I've been looking aorund the Collins article and several others as well and it seems to me as if certain people are trying to re-fight the Irish civil war on wikipedia. The anti-treaty side were probably mistaken, but they do not deserve to be caricatured or demonised either. Jdorney 22:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
It is useful to read Maurice Moynihan's "Speeches & Statements of Eamon de Valera" book about the Civil War period. The only reference ever provided for the allegedly vitriolic speeches are from the newspapers. Included in Moynihan's book is de Valera's letter to the newspapers which challenged the allegations. They were also raised in the Dáil by Kevin O'Higgins and were rebutted there as well. SoldierofDestiny.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
The General Registry Office of Ireland have provided what appears to be a certified death certificate on the internet [2] as a sample of their modernisation plan. Djegan 16:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Please change the name of the page to Éamon de Valera, as that is the proper spelling of the first name, not Eamon.
63.164.145.33 11:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Amazing how this basic fact of de Valera's existence is rejected in this article because one editor here is convinced that the rest of us are as ignorant when it comes to spelling Éamon, Seán, Ciarán etc correctly. For instance, a quick Wikipedia search has no less than 596 entries under the name 'Seán'(with accent): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Se%C3%A1n&fulltext=Search. Yet one poster here is adamant that Éamon de Valera was not dev's real name, even though dev's grandson's name, also Éamon, is spelt correctly on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_%C3%93_C%C3%BAiv Maybe we could have a reason why Wikipedia is institutionalising idiocy when it comes to dev's first name? El Gringo 04:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
The opinions repeatedly expressed by Demiurge re his analysis of WWII era geopolitics are just that--opinions. There are no citations or sources.
He continually skews everything to favour the Irish government whose refugee policy was genocidal in nature.
As far as whether or not the US entering the war earlier would have been a good thing is self-evident to any sensient human being on the face of the earth, and if Demiurge chooses to disagree, he will have to provide SOURCES and CITATIONS as he routinely demands of others.
He is clearly behaving as a censor in this matter, and I have no intention of backing down. The war dead, who might have survived, had it not been for Irish and Irish-American selfishness and hatred during that period of time demand no less from posterity, and as an Irishman I can do no less than oblige.
Brandubh Blathmac 23:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Demiurge, Jtdirl, et al: I am not going to engage in a revert war at this time. I have contacted the necessary outside individuals to review this matter, and have advised them as to what they can expect to hear from you (boilerplate nonsense) regarding this matter.
As the Irish say, when the Good Lord created time, he made a lot of it, so I am willing and am going to wait for these individuals to review this matter. Brandubh Blathmac 00:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
If I understand correctly from the last set of reverts, the pieces in question are Brandubh's para re. refusal to admit refugees - should prob be put back with a citation and reword a bit more neutral. Comment re. weather provided to allies - given that Eire was also providing access to weather until 1943, this can perhaps be phrased a bit more neutral, as it stands it all sounds quite pro-allies. The info re. US entry into WW II has, however, in my opinion little significant bearing on this article and is best discussed elsewhere. In other words, IMHO both parties are 'partly' in the right here Bridesmill 01:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Bridesmill - I am sorry to have disappointed you earlier. I was not being "disingenuous"; I was genuinely grateful to have what I thought was an ally against a clear collusive effort by several individuals (all from Ireland) to pre-emptively censor me and to clearly be acting in collusion using boilerplate nonsense to preemptively rv anything I wrote. If I had written the Declaration of Independence Demiurge would label it "sockpuppetry". And I am not a Marshall Plan expert but according to the Marshall Plan wikipage the Plan was "to rebuild Europe".
So why would a neutral country which suffered no damage during the war, and which worse yet, had allowed the German embassy (in violation of the Free State's own neutrality) to possess potentially anti-Allied communications equipment until 1943(!!), and which, worse still, refused to accept more than a handful of refugees during the entire Holocaust, have been eligible for $133,000,000 worth of Marshall Plan loans, which it could never afford to repay, w/o friendly congressmen as I suggested?? I guess you know better.
I would like to have added (since the page is protected) to de Valera's page re characteristics of neutrality:
[ [4]]).
At the "first Irish holocaust memorial day on 26th January 2003", Justice Minister Michael McDowell apologized for "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland which discouraged immigration by Europe's shattered Jews. He said that "at an official level the Irish state was at best coldly polite and behind closed doors antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling toward the Jews."" ([ [5]].)
Respectfully submitted.
Brandubh Blathmac
At the bottom of the article, it states:
"See also
There isn't even a webpage for "List of illegitimates" and even if there was a wikipedia webpage, de Valera should not be on it because there is no PROOF that he was illegitimate.
I think that this should be removed from de Valera's webpage. It is not a NPOV. I would remove it myself if the page weren't protected. Bcsurvivor 17:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I just did - the page linked to was AfD'd if I recall correctly. Bridesmill 17:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
According to the Manual of Style: "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known." No-one talks of Edward de Valera, the Irish statesman. They all talk of Éamon de Valera. If that means the article should be moved to Éamon de Valera then we should do so, and start correcting all the links without delay. David | Talk 09:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
If we are putting up a
Wikipedia:Requested moves do we not require a template per
steps for requesting a page move?
Djegan
11:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
A quick google of the
Irish Statute Book shows that their are approximately 30 out of 105 instances that use "É" as apposed to "E"
[7]. Not an exact science though as google appears to be crude at distinguishing between accents, so my count is visual as seen.
Djegan
11:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The Death Certificate as referred to above previously, uses "Eamon De Valera" in the column "Name and Surname". Djegan 11:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Some documents from National Archives of Ireland regarding de Valera [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. Of these the second (inludes Irish and English translation of order) and fourth (foreign letter) are the best as they include typefaces that include accents so it would not simply be an issue of the "É" been unavailable for the typist. The final is handwritten in. Djegan 14:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The vast majority of Irish people simply have no idea what the correct form of their name as Gailge is, so its not supriseing that such mistakes are widespread even with figures such as Dev. Indeed its only the the last five or more years that I have seen people use the (correct) form of Ó Connor instead of O'Connor. The first form is an indicator of accent, the second is a meaningless form given by the English and Irish people not literate in Irish during the early 1800's onwards.
Fact of the matter is you cannot translate any language easily into another. This is why so many of us still go by woeful mis-translations of our correct names (either via semi/illerate ancestors, confused English officals without the grace of Gailge, not to mention simple ignorence even in the 18th and 19th centuries over what the correct form was even among Gailgeors!). This is why you have surnames such as Green instead of Ó Fathaigh/Fahy, Mortimer instead of Ó Muircheartaigh/Murtagh, Crystal instead of MacGiollaChriost/Gilcreest/Kilcreest and a long line of other gems that drive people daft! Fergananim 17:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion is simply find out which form he most commonly used himself. Nuff said.
Fergananim 17:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I've just reverted Jtdirl's change which again puts his abandoned and little-known birth name first. The standard wikipedia policy is to put the usual name first, and then make a note of previous names: see for example Bill Clinton (William Jefferson Blythe at birth) and Gerald Ford (Leslie Lynch King at birth) both of which start with their usual name. David | Talk 22:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The right to use the Irish version of one's name (which I use sometimes too) comes from the Irish Free State Constitution Act which recognised the equality of Irish and English. Legally Irish could not be used in names prior to independence. Re the fada, deV did always use it. It became problematic from the 1960s when he was technically blind and really couldn't see what he was writing. So the fada used to stray onto other letters, even though he thought (and hoped) he was adding it over the E. The idea that there are fadas over de Valera is absurd. De Valera is a Spanish name, not Irish. It isn't even one of those god-awful Irish-ised words and terms like Bus Lana. Éamon however is 100% Irish, the Irish language version of Eamonn (the English version has two ns). Writing the Irish version without the fada is a bit absurd in my view. If de Valera regarded his name as Éamon de Valera then I can't see any reason why we shouldn't. We shouldn't take the illiteracy of other sites are evidence of anything other than their own illiteracy. Given that he was born with one language version of his name and was registered as such, and in his 30s adopted another language version of his name, the normal format used throughout Wikipedia is to start off with the official registered version, and state he used a linguistic variant in adult directly afterwards. It is only where a whole new name is legally registered that the new name comes first, followed by a reference to the earlier version. The other alternative is, as in Bill Clinton, to write "Edward George ("Eamon") de Valera" but that would not be accurate, as "Eamon" is not a colloquilism but a valid translation of the registered name, albeit one never legally registered (though given who de Valera was, no-one dared pick him up on the difference between the used name and registered name and demanded that he used the registered form on ballot papers, etc.) It is worth noting that the last Irish governor-general, though he always used the Irish version of his name,
Domhnall Ua Buachalla, always appeared in official documents as Donal Buckley on the advice of the Irish law officers, even when Buckingham Palace indicated that the King had no problem with his governor-general using the Irish version is formal documentation. That generation had a problem because prior to 1922 the Irish name could not be used at all and so they tended to use the English name officially, even after 1922. Luckily we don't have the same problem, and legally can use both.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
19:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing , really, about the Press here. I don't know where it would slot in though. help? -- Irishpunktom\ talk 14:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
It might be an interesting fact to add to the article, that of all the prime ministers of the comonwealth ÉdV was the only one to vote for Miss Simpson becoming the legitimate wife and queen of Edward VIII. The article on the Abdication_Crisis_of_Edward_VIII has more info, but at present I can't get around to write something nice myself... Zemlod 17:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
A section on the page reads...
This opinion is referenced not to a reliable source but to additional opinion apparently unsourced itself which reads...
Er... What? Any complaints if I remove this so we adhere to policy?-- Zleitzen 14:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Something wrong here:
.. he won further scholarships and exhibitions and in 1903 was appointed professor of mathematics at Rockwell College, County Tipperary. He graduated in mathematics in 1904
Anybody correct the discrepancy?
I see Tayana is neither an active member, nor an admin member, of the WikiProject Biography, yet has demoted the biography class rating from A to B without any comment. As a 3 week registered member I suggest this is an error and the date discrepancy does not merit this demotion by 2 classes. Any comment, or could this be regarded as minor vandalism? I'm curious indeed to hear from Tayana or others who watch this article. ww2censor 18:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
is flawed. The "one small discrepancy" is still there and I would agree that a basic factual error on opening renders suspect the accuracy and scholarship of the remainder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.172.89 ( talk • contribs)
What knowledge do you have and what have YOU done to show any bona fide knowledge of this subject? is unwarranted.
Anybody is entitled to rate an article, whether a member of a group or not. One does not have to show experience to operate in wikipedia, all that is required is objectivity. Where is the discussion that suggested it be A rated? The flaw in the opening page referred to previously is still present and it renders the article's accuracy as less than stellar. Tayana 21:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the Overview section, which included a great deal of Point of View and Original Research. There was some good stuff in it, though, so I took the facts I found and inserted them elsewhere within the article. This is part of a sincere attempt we should all make to reduce the length of this article and to remove unsourced facts and opinion. (Also: My suggestion would be to take the Churchill-DeValera controversy and make a new article of it.} In the meantime, we should all work to rid WikiP of as many Citation Needed tags as possible. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 20:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I am on a campaign to get rid of Citation Neededs as listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Category:Articles_with_unsourced_statements&from=Z, but I find that this page is almost impossible to work with. It seems there is too much reversion and Bad Faith going on. Nevertheless, I will soldier on and attempt to fix one Citation Needed at a time, but not being an expert on Irish history, I am sure I am not going to find the Sources on my own and must rely on others to insert them. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 15:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
"(The late Gervase Gardener of Sheffield knew the Trench family of Winscale House, Workington - formerly of Dublin - The Trench family informed him that de Velera's mother had been married to a bigamist but only discovered this in New York. She returned to Dublin and resuemed service in their household - tantalising information - would welcome comment: ecross7023@aol.com)." - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.255.64 ( talk • contribs)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 13:58, 18 April * 2006 (UTC)
== Requested move ==
Proposal : | Éamon de Valera/Archive 2 ? Éamon de Valera |
Rationale : | "as deV used the Irish spelling" |
Proposer : | David |
Please add * Support or * Oppose followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~".
Relative to the general standard of Wikipedia articles, this article seems weak. There is unsourced speculation and editorialising at several points. I made one attempt to change one particularly glaring example - "However, at the time and in the emotions of the moment, it lowered the respect for him held by people in combatant countries, who did not always fully appreciate the points and who were also influenced by indignation at his official and diplomatically proper condolences on the death of Hitler", but this was immediately reverted. I think there are more serious issues here than the spelling of the name. Buyo
True. A day. Buyo
Tayana 15:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"reland's dominant political personality for many decades, as well as co-owner of one of Ireland's most influential group of newspapers, Irish Press Newspapers, de Valera is alleged by critics to have kept Ireland under the influence of Catholic conservatism, though to his credit his constitution did explicitly recognise the existence and rights of the Jewish community in Ireland in 1937, at a time when much of Europe was beginning the process of wholesale extermination of Jews."
This is in the overview...is the phrase "exterminating the jews" alittle strong and inaccurate given that we are talking about 1937? In 1937 the large scale and organised extermination had not begun. Could someone perhaps look at changing this? -Colin MacDonald
Re the most recent changes reverted back:
Dev was also used in Kevin Boland's Up Dev . In that case, and in others, it was the typesetter who was responsible. Texts physically written by people who knew deV and historians, as opposed to typeset or typed by others, use deV. As to the fada, deV made a point of using an Irish spelling of his name, hence the one 'n' not two, the normal english spelling of Eamonn. I have come across deV's signature in various documents in the National Archives and other papers, and he used the fada until his eyesight failed in the 1950s because while he could still do his signature in one go while effectively blind, he was hopeless at knowing where to put the fada in at the end as he had no visual guide as to where he had written the E. And if he stopped having written the E to add in the fada, he then had difficulty knowing where to write the amon as he could not see the É to join the rest to. FearÉIREANN 21:07, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Re 'Dev' (and 'De Valera', moreover), what do you think about this [1] image? Cill Ros 00:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Can we solve this issue of the spelling once and for all and perhaps have a vote on it? Even the article is no longer consistant. The intro uses a different spelling to the article title and infobox and this is frequently an issue with reversion (although not always the primary reason). Djegan 11:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
De Valera died in Linden Convalescent Home, Blackrock, not Lynden as spelt in the article(I should know, the housing estate that now occupies the site is right beside my house.)
I can't believe how POV the sections ofthis article on the Treaty and the Civil War were. From reading what was here, you'd think that DV single handedly started the civil war instead of being dragged unwilling into it. And is there any evidence that he wouldn't even read the treaty when it was brought home? Isn't this a little, petty anyway? I've been looking aorund the Collins article and several others as well and it seems to me as if certain people are trying to re-fight the Irish civil war on wikipedia. The anti-treaty side were probably mistaken, but they do not deserve to be caricatured or demonised either. Jdorney 22:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
It is useful to read Maurice Moynihan's "Speeches & Statements of Eamon de Valera" book about the Civil War period. The only reference ever provided for the allegedly vitriolic speeches are from the newspapers. Included in Moynihan's book is de Valera's letter to the newspapers which challenged the allegations. They were also raised in the Dáil by Kevin O'Higgins and were rebutted there as well. SoldierofDestiny.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
The General Registry Office of Ireland have provided what appears to be a certified death certificate on the internet [2] as a sample of their modernisation plan. Djegan 16:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Please change the name of the page to Éamon de Valera, as that is the proper spelling of the first name, not Eamon.
63.164.145.33 11:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Amazing how this basic fact of de Valera's existence is rejected in this article because one editor here is convinced that the rest of us are as ignorant when it comes to spelling Éamon, Seán, Ciarán etc correctly. For instance, a quick Wikipedia search has no less than 596 entries under the name 'Seán'(with accent): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Se%C3%A1n&fulltext=Search. Yet one poster here is adamant that Éamon de Valera was not dev's real name, even though dev's grandson's name, also Éamon, is spelt correctly on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_%C3%93_C%C3%BAiv Maybe we could have a reason why Wikipedia is institutionalising idiocy when it comes to dev's first name? El Gringo 04:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
The opinions repeatedly expressed by Demiurge re his analysis of WWII era geopolitics are just that--opinions. There are no citations or sources.
He continually skews everything to favour the Irish government whose refugee policy was genocidal in nature.
As far as whether or not the US entering the war earlier would have been a good thing is self-evident to any sensient human being on the face of the earth, and if Demiurge chooses to disagree, he will have to provide SOURCES and CITATIONS as he routinely demands of others.
He is clearly behaving as a censor in this matter, and I have no intention of backing down. The war dead, who might have survived, had it not been for Irish and Irish-American selfishness and hatred during that period of time demand no less from posterity, and as an Irishman I can do no less than oblige.
Brandubh Blathmac 23:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Demiurge, Jtdirl, et al: I am not going to engage in a revert war at this time. I have contacted the necessary outside individuals to review this matter, and have advised them as to what they can expect to hear from you (boilerplate nonsense) regarding this matter.
As the Irish say, when the Good Lord created time, he made a lot of it, so I am willing and am going to wait for these individuals to review this matter. Brandubh Blathmac 00:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
If I understand correctly from the last set of reverts, the pieces in question are Brandubh's para re. refusal to admit refugees - should prob be put back with a citation and reword a bit more neutral. Comment re. weather provided to allies - given that Eire was also providing access to weather until 1943, this can perhaps be phrased a bit more neutral, as it stands it all sounds quite pro-allies. The info re. US entry into WW II has, however, in my opinion little significant bearing on this article and is best discussed elsewhere. In other words, IMHO both parties are 'partly' in the right here Bridesmill 01:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Bridesmill - I am sorry to have disappointed you earlier. I was not being "disingenuous"; I was genuinely grateful to have what I thought was an ally against a clear collusive effort by several individuals (all from Ireland) to pre-emptively censor me and to clearly be acting in collusion using boilerplate nonsense to preemptively rv anything I wrote. If I had written the Declaration of Independence Demiurge would label it "sockpuppetry". And I am not a Marshall Plan expert but according to the Marshall Plan wikipage the Plan was "to rebuild Europe".
So why would a neutral country which suffered no damage during the war, and which worse yet, had allowed the German embassy (in violation of the Free State's own neutrality) to possess potentially anti-Allied communications equipment until 1943(!!), and which, worse still, refused to accept more than a handful of refugees during the entire Holocaust, have been eligible for $133,000,000 worth of Marshall Plan loans, which it could never afford to repay, w/o friendly congressmen as I suggested?? I guess you know better.
I would like to have added (since the page is protected) to de Valera's page re characteristics of neutrality:
[ [4]]).
At the "first Irish holocaust memorial day on 26th January 2003", Justice Minister Michael McDowell apologized for "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland which discouraged immigration by Europe's shattered Jews. He said that "at an official level the Irish state was at best coldly polite and behind closed doors antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling toward the Jews."" ([ [5]].)
Respectfully submitted.
Brandubh Blathmac
At the bottom of the article, it states:
"See also
There isn't even a webpage for "List of illegitimates" and even if there was a wikipedia webpage, de Valera should not be on it because there is no PROOF that he was illegitimate.
I think that this should be removed from de Valera's webpage. It is not a NPOV. I would remove it myself if the page weren't protected. Bcsurvivor 17:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I just did - the page linked to was AfD'd if I recall correctly. Bridesmill 17:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
According to the Manual of Style: "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known." No-one talks of Edward de Valera, the Irish statesman. They all talk of Éamon de Valera. If that means the article should be moved to Éamon de Valera then we should do so, and start correcting all the links without delay. David | Talk 09:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
If we are putting up a
Wikipedia:Requested moves do we not require a template per
steps for requesting a page move?
Djegan
11:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
A quick google of the
Irish Statute Book shows that their are approximately 30 out of 105 instances that use "É" as apposed to "E"
[7]. Not an exact science though as google appears to be crude at distinguishing between accents, so my count is visual as seen.
Djegan
11:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The Death Certificate as referred to above previously, uses "Eamon De Valera" in the column "Name and Surname". Djegan 11:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Some documents from National Archives of Ireland regarding de Valera [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. Of these the second (inludes Irish and English translation of order) and fourth (foreign letter) are the best as they include typefaces that include accents so it would not simply be an issue of the "É" been unavailable for the typist. The final is handwritten in. Djegan 14:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The vast majority of Irish people simply have no idea what the correct form of their name as Gailge is, so its not supriseing that such mistakes are widespread even with figures such as Dev. Indeed its only the the last five or more years that I have seen people use the (correct) form of Ó Connor instead of O'Connor. The first form is an indicator of accent, the second is a meaningless form given by the English and Irish people not literate in Irish during the early 1800's onwards.
Fact of the matter is you cannot translate any language easily into another. This is why so many of us still go by woeful mis-translations of our correct names (either via semi/illerate ancestors, confused English officals without the grace of Gailge, not to mention simple ignorence even in the 18th and 19th centuries over what the correct form was even among Gailgeors!). This is why you have surnames such as Green instead of Ó Fathaigh/Fahy, Mortimer instead of Ó Muircheartaigh/Murtagh, Crystal instead of MacGiollaChriost/Gilcreest/Kilcreest and a long line of other gems that drive people daft! Fergananim 17:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion is simply find out which form he most commonly used himself. Nuff said.
Fergananim 17:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I've just reverted Jtdirl's change which again puts his abandoned and little-known birth name first. The standard wikipedia policy is to put the usual name first, and then make a note of previous names: see for example Bill Clinton (William Jefferson Blythe at birth) and Gerald Ford (Leslie Lynch King at birth) both of which start with their usual name. David | Talk 22:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The right to use the Irish version of one's name (which I use sometimes too) comes from the Irish Free State Constitution Act which recognised the equality of Irish and English. Legally Irish could not be used in names prior to independence. Re the fada, deV did always use it. It became problematic from the 1960s when he was technically blind and really couldn't see what he was writing. So the fada used to stray onto other letters, even though he thought (and hoped) he was adding it over the E. The idea that there are fadas over de Valera is absurd. De Valera is a Spanish name, not Irish. It isn't even one of those god-awful Irish-ised words and terms like Bus Lana. Éamon however is 100% Irish, the Irish language version of Eamonn (the English version has two ns). Writing the Irish version without the fada is a bit absurd in my view. If de Valera regarded his name as Éamon de Valera then I can't see any reason why we shouldn't. We shouldn't take the illiteracy of other sites are evidence of anything other than their own illiteracy. Given that he was born with one language version of his name and was registered as such, and in his 30s adopted another language version of his name, the normal format used throughout Wikipedia is to start off with the official registered version, and state he used a linguistic variant in adult directly afterwards. It is only where a whole new name is legally registered that the new name comes first, followed by a reference to the earlier version. The other alternative is, as in Bill Clinton, to write "Edward George ("Eamon") de Valera" but that would not be accurate, as "Eamon" is not a colloquilism but a valid translation of the registered name, albeit one never legally registered (though given who de Valera was, no-one dared pick him up on the difference between the used name and registered name and demanded that he used the registered form on ballot papers, etc.) It is worth noting that the last Irish governor-general, though he always used the Irish version of his name,
Domhnall Ua Buachalla, always appeared in official documents as Donal Buckley on the advice of the Irish law officers, even when Buckingham Palace indicated that the King had no problem with his governor-general using the Irish version is formal documentation. That generation had a problem because prior to 1922 the Irish name could not be used at all and so they tended to use the English name officially, even after 1922. Luckily we don't have the same problem, and legally can use both.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
19:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing , really, about the Press here. I don't know where it would slot in though. help? -- Irishpunktom\ talk 14:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
It might be an interesting fact to add to the article, that of all the prime ministers of the comonwealth ÉdV was the only one to vote for Miss Simpson becoming the legitimate wife and queen of Edward VIII. The article on the Abdication_Crisis_of_Edward_VIII has more info, but at present I can't get around to write something nice myself... Zemlod 17:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
A section on the page reads...
This opinion is referenced not to a reliable source but to additional opinion apparently unsourced itself which reads...
Er... What? Any complaints if I remove this so we adhere to policy?-- Zleitzen 14:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Something wrong here:
.. he won further scholarships and exhibitions and in 1903 was appointed professor of mathematics at Rockwell College, County Tipperary. He graduated in mathematics in 1904
Anybody correct the discrepancy?
I see Tayana is neither an active member, nor an admin member, of the WikiProject Biography, yet has demoted the biography class rating from A to B without any comment. As a 3 week registered member I suggest this is an error and the date discrepancy does not merit this demotion by 2 classes. Any comment, or could this be regarded as minor vandalism? I'm curious indeed to hear from Tayana or others who watch this article. ww2censor 18:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
is flawed. The "one small discrepancy" is still there and I would agree that a basic factual error on opening renders suspect the accuracy and scholarship of the remainder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.172.89 ( talk • contribs)
What knowledge do you have and what have YOU done to show any bona fide knowledge of this subject? is unwarranted.
Anybody is entitled to rate an article, whether a member of a group or not. One does not have to show experience to operate in wikipedia, all that is required is objectivity. Where is the discussion that suggested it be A rated? The flaw in the opening page referred to previously is still present and it renders the article's accuracy as less than stellar. Tayana 21:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the Overview section, which included a great deal of Point of View and Original Research. There was some good stuff in it, though, so I took the facts I found and inserted them elsewhere within the article. This is part of a sincere attempt we should all make to reduce the length of this article and to remove unsourced facts and opinion. (Also: My suggestion would be to take the Churchill-DeValera controversy and make a new article of it.} In the meantime, we should all work to rid WikiP of as many Citation Needed tags as possible. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 20:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I am on a campaign to get rid of Citation Neededs as listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Category:Articles_with_unsourced_statements&from=Z, but I find that this page is almost impossible to work with. It seems there is too much reversion and Bad Faith going on. Nevertheless, I will soldier on and attempt to fix one Citation Needed at a time, but not being an expert on Irish history, I am sure I am not going to find the Sources on my own and must rely on others to insert them. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 15:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
"(The late Gervase Gardener of Sheffield knew the Trench family of Winscale House, Workington - formerly of Dublin - The Trench family informed him that de Velera's mother had been married to a bigamist but only discovered this in New York. She returned to Dublin and resuemed service in their household - tantalising information - would welcome comment: ecross7023@aol.com)." - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.255.64 ( talk • contribs)
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