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WikiProject Biography Assessment
Little is known about the Saxon kings. This is complete and referenced enough to warrant a GA.
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It is probable that Ælle’s entire career is fictional. Allegedly he arrived in three ships, with three sons, and fought three battles. That sounds more like a fairy tale than history. It annals are supposedly derived from Easter tables, but during the period to which they relate, the South Saxons were illiterate pagans, with no use for Easter tables, and no ability to write notes on them.
The story of Ælle is a heroic Anglo-Saxon legend to explain the acquisition of Sussex. An entirely different and equally implausible British (Welsh) myth was preserved by Nennius. He stated that Hengist treacherously seized the British king Vortigern and demanded the cession of Essex and Sussex as ransom for the king: “Hengistus sicut dixerat, vociferatus est et omnes seniores trecenti Guorthigirni regis iugulati sunt et ipse solus captus et catenatus est et regiones plurimas pro redemptione enimae suae illis tribuit, id est Estsaxum, Sutsaxum” ( http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/histbrit.html).
More probably, Saxon migrants had been colonizing the area for decades, and it was already heavily populated by Saxons before the supposed dates of Hengist and Ælle. In late Roman times the coast was already known as “the Saxon Shore”: “The Saxon Shore Forts were built by the Romans in the late 3rd century AD along the southeast coast of Britain to guard against increasing invasion and piracy by Germanic tribes including the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes” ( http://www.athenapub.com/saxshor1.htm).
There are no easy answers to questions such as ‘Who invented the motor car’: it was a gradual process over decades. Likewise, the colonization of South East England by Germanic migrants was a gradual process. But there is a human need for simple answers to complex question. It is for this reason that myths arise. The British (Welsh) myths assume that the provinces were lost due to foul trickery by wicked rebel mercenaries, while the English myths revolve around heroic deeds by noble warriors. Slightly more relevant is that German king Fraomar and his people were settled in Britain by the Emperor Valentinian a century before the supposed arrival of Ælle: “Another point of view which has grown up from unfortunately reading only the Saxon Chronicle, is that Continental immigration began suddenly with the ‘three keels’. The evidence of tradition, and of tribal names, shows that there had been a continual flow of population into Britain before the Roman age. The Atrebates, the Belgae, the Parisii, the Brigantes, and others, are equally familiar names on both sides of the channel. Nor was this process stopped even by Rome: it was only regulated. Rome brought over masses of troops largely recruited from the Continent, even to the Huns on the Wall. Aurelius brought multitudes of the Marcomanni to settle in Britain. Similarly did Probus, with the colonies of Vandals and Burgundians. The Franks raided the south and occupied London under Allectus. Constantine was accompanied by the king of the Alamanni - and doubtless a good following - when he came over to Britain. Valentinian removed Fraomar and his tribe of Alamanni into Britain.” ( http://www.sedwards.demon.co.uk/kafs/news/Tysilio%20Flinders%20Petrie-uncut.rtf).
I am not a scholar of English history, but it is plain to see that this article is biased, e.g. "That sounds more like a fairy tale than history", "The story of Ælle is a heroic Anglo-Saxon myth", etc. Can anyone contribute to this article to give it a a more neutral stance? Matt 16:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
My additions to the article reflect current academic opinion: "The folkloric arrival in three ships, and the inclusion of people whose sole function seems to be to give their names to local settlements, suggest that these Chronicle entries should be treated as later fiction rather than recorded fact" [1].
Hovite 20:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with the content of this page. Rather, I have a problem with the way that content is presented. Rather than saying "the story of Aelle is a myth", why not say "modern academic opinion is that Aelle's story is a fictional"? I think this article merely needs some revision to its language to give it a NPOV. JMHO Matt 17:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is listed on the NPOV backlog. My knowledge of old English history is not great, but I've tried to rearranged text and rewrite a few point-of-view sentences. (I might have destroyed the article for what I know). However, since there's no discussion suggesting a larger disagreement, the POV tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the disputed section with {{NPOV-section}} (or the article with {{NPOV}}) and post to Talk. Also consider improving the article yourself. -- Steve Hart 23:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
This section is for a discussion of the requested move from Aelle of Sussex to Ælle of Sussex. See Talk:Æthelbald of Wessex#Requested move for a parallel recent discussion. Mike Christie (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more detailed notes. There are a couple of complications: not everything disambiguated at Aelle requires the ligature, so I think the right answer is two dabs, one for "Ælle", and one for "Aelle". The former would list only the Anglo-Saxons, and would include an informative link to the latter, which would continue to list everything it lists now, with the ligatures where appropriate. The related move listed in WP:RM is in line with this suggestion. In addition, "Ælla" should become a redirect to "Ælle"; these names may be slightly different but the possibility of confusion is so great that using a single dab page seems best. Finally, Ælle of Sussex is the most famous of these kings, so I would give "Ælle" primacy over "Ælla". Mike Christie (talk) 13:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
This article has been renamed from Aelle of Sussex to Ælle of Sussex as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the material about Wlencing being obviously not the son of Ælle; I can't find any source for this, though it does seem reasonable. Mike Christie (talk) 02:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have cut the para about Alastair Campbell's theory of a 28-year Easter table cycle, and the possibility that the scribe forgot to return to the story of Ælle. There was no source given, and I can't find any other references to this. Mike Christie (talk) 17:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not really necessary to go into the details of the criteria here: This article passes all of them with flying colours. Obviously, it can't be expected to reach definite conclusions, but it does a nice job of setting forth what evidence there is. Good job! Adam Cuerden talk 17:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I've reversed part of a change made to put "three" instead of "3" in the 477 annal. Swanton uses the digits to indicate that the original annal used Roman numerals rather than words for the numbers. This is a distinction worth preserving in general because certain kinds of scribal error are possible with digits but not with words. In this particular case there's no likelihood of scribal error, but since this is mostly quoting Swanton I think it should preserve his usage. Mike Christie (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are some suggestions for further research, copied in from the FAC discussion. These are from Warofdreams.
Another discussion from the FAC nom relates to the suggestion that Aelle led the Saxon forces at Mons Badonicus. Here's the comment from Warofdreams:
On Mons Badonicus, I suspect that there is a stronger reference than the apparently rather imaginative Phillips and Keatman. In the 1972 British Battlefields, Philip Warner writes that the Saxon force "was reputed to have been led by one Aelle but this can hardly have been the Aelle who had first appeared in 477" [because he reasons the date of the battle as 516]. By the 2004 Routledge Companion to Medieval Warfare, we have "It has been thought possible the English leader was Aelle of Sussex"; it seems to me that there is enough discussion of this to merit a mention in the article, although rather a cautious one. Lastly, I've added the picture I mentioned, thinking that it is a reasonably notable work, but I'd be happy to discuss its inclusion further on the article talk page.
In response: yes, I think this could be added. I don't have the Companion to Medieval Warfare, but perhaps you can add a note to this effect and cite that; that's strong enough a source, I think. I also find it interesting that Warner says "was reputed to have been led by one Aelle"; there is clearly some source he is referring to that is early enough to be described using "reputed" rather than "suggested". I'd like to know what that source is, and mention it here. Mike Christie (talk) 02:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I mostly find the guides to pronunciation a bit redundant (Manchester, anyone?) but I think an 'IPA' would be helpful here. Alley? Ella? Ely? Eel? Mr Stephen ( talk) 20:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Why not the Britons? "British" is interpreted by most people to mean "during the time of Great Britain". "Britons" or "early Britons" would better suggest the time period of Aelle. -- 69.236.163.52 ( talk) 16:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to reorder the sections in this article. Move the Reign section to be between Historical Context and Early Sources.
I think it makes more sense to present the "facts" of the man first, and then get deeper into the discussion of his actual existence, or lack thereof.
What are other opinions?
EAKugler ( talk) 22:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Whereas, from a usability standpoint, I think it would be much more useful to know what the guy is supposed to have done, as opposed to focusing so much on whether he actually existed. I think the way this site is presented, it puts too much emphasis on the lack of information we have on that time period. EAKugler ( talk) 00:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This hints at what (for me at least) could be a fascinating question: how do historians say "with certainty" that anyone existed? I suppose there is some threshold of contemporary documents that make it highly probable the person actually lived and did what was claimed, but even today under the glare of multiple network cameras the media sometimes gets it wrong.
Anyway, if someone knowledgeable about this topic could find a way to link to an article on historical "certainty" and how it is determined, it might be helpful. Thanks. 70.162.156.229 ( talk) 01:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
It might be useful to link to historical method to clarify. EAKugler ( talk) 00:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
"Historical method" in this case means that we accept what the sources tell us -- unless there is good reason to question their veracity. Although Bede, the first writer to mention Ælle, wrote a couple of centuries after the Sussex king lived, experts are willing to accept what he states without hesitation. What is written about him in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle may indeed be legends or simply wrong, but it's all we have about the person; again we have no strong reason to doubt its veracity -- beyond generic skepticism. If anything, the few hints we have about the veracity of this part of the Chronicle -- for example, the language in the relevant passages -- indicate that this is at least an early tradition, if not in general outline the truth. Primary sources do lie, but far less often than non-historians assume. And always for reasons we can determine.
But to my original point: this article doesn't need weasel words like "if he existed" sprinkled through the text; no one -- let alone any serious authority on this period -- believes he never existed, these qualifications imply an opinion no one has. And unless someone objects, I will remove these unneeded words from the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 17:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Given that the Dumnonia article states that it's unknown whether Cornwall was ever even part of Dumnonia, would it be an idea to say something like "Dumnonia (modern Devon)", rather than "Dumnonia (modern Cornwall)"? Carre ( talk) 13:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a lack of archaeological context in this article. The detail can follow if there's any interest, but for the moment it's worth noting that the attested fifth century archaeological in Sussex is situated in two parcels of land - between the Arun and the Adur in the west and between the Ouse and the Cuckmere in the east. Despite the tradition about Owers Bank, apart from one sunken hut in the vicinity of Westehampnett, there's no known South Saxon archaeology west of the Arun that predates the seventh century. Bearing in mind that Cymensore is traditionally located close to Selsey as a result of what is now known to be a suspect charter and given the locations of the principal South Saxon settlements, the balance of early settlement should really be shifted eastwards, either around Wick and northern Littlehampton, on Rookery Hill east of the Ouse, or else at Alfriston on the west bank of the Cuckmere. This also has implications for the remainder of the traditional view of South Saxon settlement in Sussex. Aridol ( talk) 20:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ælle of Sussex/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
==
Biography assessment rating comment ==
WikiProject Biography Assessment Little is known about the Saxon kings. This is complete and referenced enough to warrant a GA. The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
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Last edited at 01:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:21, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Apparently I must justify adding something, since it is acceptable to remove unsourced information (despite there seeming to be case-by-case situations where people aren't allowed to remove spurious, unsourced info.) I'm moving the conversation here:
(Welcome and a note on Aelle)
Hi -- welcome to Wikipedia. I just reverted your addition of a family tree to
Aelle of Sussex and wanted to let you know why. The sons names are already in the article, and you didn't provide a source for the other names; even if you did I don't think they're relevant given that there's no reliable link to those names. I also thinking putting a tree in is giving the relationships too much weight -- at that early date it's very hard to know how much is true and how much is legend. I'd support readding a tree like that if a
reliable source discusses the descendants as being of importance to a discussion of Aelle.
I hope you like editing here; let me know if I can help with anything. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Well, the source is the British Chronicles. But the tree is necessary to understand what Slaughter thinks the link between Cissa (who is not clearly legendary but quite clearly real) and Ricceol was. Henry of Huntingdon and Roger ignored the attested Ricceol and Ricwulf (Probably reversed, so they were actually Ceolric and Wulfric) in favour of making Cissa reign a hundred years. I support at least mentioning the link to Ricceol, Ricsulf and Rhywyrch if not a tree, and making it less biased. Stating some historians don't think he existed is fair and fine. The Pictish wikipedia page notes Wolf's many skepticisms on matrilineality, which is fair to him, to historians and to the historical consensus on the Picts. ÞunoresWrǣþþe ( talk) 13:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Here came Ælle to Britain and with his three sons, Cymen and Wlencing and Cissa, in three ships on the place that is named Cymenesora, and there they slew many Britons and some in flight were driven to the wood that is named Andredesleag. Also, do note the author of te Chronicle says "named" in the present, meaning he fully knows that Cymenesora was not the name at the time. Also, for whoever said Cissa was "clearly fictitious". If you're saying that since you think he's a back-formation for Cissasceaster... He almost certainly isn't. Cissa doesn't mean anything in Old English as far as we know, nor in Brittonic or Latin. Also, it wasn't uncommon for the Germans to rename places after their family members. The Visigoths did it in Spain, with places like Reccopolis (city founded by Recco), Lugopolis (city founded by Lugo's father Liuvigild). ÞunoresWrǣþþe ( talk) 13:38, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
That "refactoring" might well have been a mistake, i.e. an edit conflict, and if so I apologise: the diff you linked to certainly was an edit conflict, so you may well be right. Wikipedia has seemed especially prone to edit conflicts of that sort lately. Believe me, I have been trying to be helpful, and my advice stands. I shall now follow it myself. Best. Nortonius ( talk) 14:03, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
References
In Morris, J (1973). The Age of Arthur Vol. 1. Roman Britain and the Empire of Arthur. the author makes the case that the date of 491 for the sacking of Pevensey is 20 years too late. Morris suggests the error originated with Gildas who gave an incorrect date for when the British asked Aetius for help; this initial error effected the later chronology and was copied by Bede and then the ASC. Malcolm Lyne in Lyne, Malcolm (2009). Excavations at Pevensey Castle, 1936 to 1964. Archaeopress. is convinced by Morris and accepts the 471 date.
I'm reading this in Lyne's book which is focused on Pevensey, so don't know the wider implications of the change in date but I suspect it might mean the a few dates in the 'Early sources' section need to be reconsidered.
On the subject of whether Pevensey was the Andredes cester mentioned in the ASC, the article mentions that there is little archaeological evidence for sustained settlement at Pevensey. Since Greenway wrote something along those lines in 1996, the results of the excavations between 1936 and 1964, and 1993 and 1995 have been published. I don't have the Fulford and Rippon volume immediately to hand but Lyne's report notes that 5th century pottery was found at Pevensey indicating occupation, and there is archaeological evidence that some buildings were burnt in the 5th century which might tally with the ASC. Richard Nevell ( talk) 13:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Ælle of Sussex is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 7, 2008. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
WikiProject Biography Assessment
Little is known about the Saxon kings. This is complete and referenced enough to warrant a GA.
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It is probable that Ælle’s entire career is fictional. Allegedly he arrived in three ships, with three sons, and fought three battles. That sounds more like a fairy tale than history. It annals are supposedly derived from Easter tables, but during the period to which they relate, the South Saxons were illiterate pagans, with no use for Easter tables, and no ability to write notes on them.
The story of Ælle is a heroic Anglo-Saxon legend to explain the acquisition of Sussex. An entirely different and equally implausible British (Welsh) myth was preserved by Nennius. He stated that Hengist treacherously seized the British king Vortigern and demanded the cession of Essex and Sussex as ransom for the king: “Hengistus sicut dixerat, vociferatus est et omnes seniores trecenti Guorthigirni regis iugulati sunt et ipse solus captus et catenatus est et regiones plurimas pro redemptione enimae suae illis tribuit, id est Estsaxum, Sutsaxum” ( http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/histbrit.html).
More probably, Saxon migrants had been colonizing the area for decades, and it was already heavily populated by Saxons before the supposed dates of Hengist and Ælle. In late Roman times the coast was already known as “the Saxon Shore”: “The Saxon Shore Forts were built by the Romans in the late 3rd century AD along the southeast coast of Britain to guard against increasing invasion and piracy by Germanic tribes including the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes” ( http://www.athenapub.com/saxshor1.htm).
There are no easy answers to questions such as ‘Who invented the motor car’: it was a gradual process over decades. Likewise, the colonization of South East England by Germanic migrants was a gradual process. But there is a human need for simple answers to complex question. It is for this reason that myths arise. The British (Welsh) myths assume that the provinces were lost due to foul trickery by wicked rebel mercenaries, while the English myths revolve around heroic deeds by noble warriors. Slightly more relevant is that German king Fraomar and his people were settled in Britain by the Emperor Valentinian a century before the supposed arrival of Ælle: “Another point of view which has grown up from unfortunately reading only the Saxon Chronicle, is that Continental immigration began suddenly with the ‘three keels’. The evidence of tradition, and of tribal names, shows that there had been a continual flow of population into Britain before the Roman age. The Atrebates, the Belgae, the Parisii, the Brigantes, and others, are equally familiar names on both sides of the channel. Nor was this process stopped even by Rome: it was only regulated. Rome brought over masses of troops largely recruited from the Continent, even to the Huns on the Wall. Aurelius brought multitudes of the Marcomanni to settle in Britain. Similarly did Probus, with the colonies of Vandals and Burgundians. The Franks raided the south and occupied London under Allectus. Constantine was accompanied by the king of the Alamanni - and doubtless a good following - when he came over to Britain. Valentinian removed Fraomar and his tribe of Alamanni into Britain.” ( http://www.sedwards.demon.co.uk/kafs/news/Tysilio%20Flinders%20Petrie-uncut.rtf).
I am not a scholar of English history, but it is plain to see that this article is biased, e.g. "That sounds more like a fairy tale than history", "The story of Ælle is a heroic Anglo-Saxon myth", etc. Can anyone contribute to this article to give it a a more neutral stance? Matt 16:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
My additions to the article reflect current academic opinion: "The folkloric arrival in three ships, and the inclusion of people whose sole function seems to be to give their names to local settlements, suggest that these Chronicle entries should be treated as later fiction rather than recorded fact" [1].
Hovite 20:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with the content of this page. Rather, I have a problem with the way that content is presented. Rather than saying "the story of Aelle is a myth", why not say "modern academic opinion is that Aelle's story is a fictional"? I think this article merely needs some revision to its language to give it a NPOV. JMHO Matt 17:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is listed on the NPOV backlog. My knowledge of old English history is not great, but I've tried to rearranged text and rewrite a few point-of-view sentences. (I might have destroyed the article for what I know). However, since there's no discussion suggesting a larger disagreement, the POV tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the disputed section with {{NPOV-section}} (or the article with {{NPOV}}) and post to Talk. Also consider improving the article yourself. -- Steve Hart 23:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
This section is for a discussion of the requested move from Aelle of Sussex to Ælle of Sussex. See Talk:Æthelbald of Wessex#Requested move for a parallel recent discussion. Mike Christie (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more detailed notes. There are a couple of complications: not everything disambiguated at Aelle requires the ligature, so I think the right answer is two dabs, one for "Ælle", and one for "Aelle". The former would list only the Anglo-Saxons, and would include an informative link to the latter, which would continue to list everything it lists now, with the ligatures where appropriate. The related move listed in WP:RM is in line with this suggestion. In addition, "Ælla" should become a redirect to "Ælle"; these names may be slightly different but the possibility of confusion is so great that using a single dab page seems best. Finally, Ælle of Sussex is the most famous of these kings, so I would give "Ælle" primacy over "Ælla". Mike Christie (talk) 13:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
This article has been renamed from Aelle of Sussex to Ælle of Sussex as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the material about Wlencing being obviously not the son of Ælle; I can't find any source for this, though it does seem reasonable. Mike Christie (talk) 02:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have cut the para about Alastair Campbell's theory of a 28-year Easter table cycle, and the possibility that the scribe forgot to return to the story of Ælle. There was no source given, and I can't find any other references to this. Mike Christie (talk) 17:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not really necessary to go into the details of the criteria here: This article passes all of them with flying colours. Obviously, it can't be expected to reach definite conclusions, but it does a nice job of setting forth what evidence there is. Good job! Adam Cuerden talk 17:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I've reversed part of a change made to put "three" instead of "3" in the 477 annal. Swanton uses the digits to indicate that the original annal used Roman numerals rather than words for the numbers. This is a distinction worth preserving in general because certain kinds of scribal error are possible with digits but not with words. In this particular case there's no likelihood of scribal error, but since this is mostly quoting Swanton I think it should preserve his usage. Mike Christie (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are some suggestions for further research, copied in from the FAC discussion. These are from Warofdreams.
Another discussion from the FAC nom relates to the suggestion that Aelle led the Saxon forces at Mons Badonicus. Here's the comment from Warofdreams:
On Mons Badonicus, I suspect that there is a stronger reference than the apparently rather imaginative Phillips and Keatman. In the 1972 British Battlefields, Philip Warner writes that the Saxon force "was reputed to have been led by one Aelle but this can hardly have been the Aelle who had first appeared in 477" [because he reasons the date of the battle as 516]. By the 2004 Routledge Companion to Medieval Warfare, we have "It has been thought possible the English leader was Aelle of Sussex"; it seems to me that there is enough discussion of this to merit a mention in the article, although rather a cautious one. Lastly, I've added the picture I mentioned, thinking that it is a reasonably notable work, but I'd be happy to discuss its inclusion further on the article talk page.
In response: yes, I think this could be added. I don't have the Companion to Medieval Warfare, but perhaps you can add a note to this effect and cite that; that's strong enough a source, I think. I also find it interesting that Warner says "was reputed to have been led by one Aelle"; there is clearly some source he is referring to that is early enough to be described using "reputed" rather than "suggested". I'd like to know what that source is, and mention it here. Mike Christie (talk) 02:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I mostly find the guides to pronunciation a bit redundant (Manchester, anyone?) but I think an 'IPA' would be helpful here. Alley? Ella? Ely? Eel? Mr Stephen ( talk) 20:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Why not the Britons? "British" is interpreted by most people to mean "during the time of Great Britain". "Britons" or "early Britons" would better suggest the time period of Aelle. -- 69.236.163.52 ( talk) 16:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to reorder the sections in this article. Move the Reign section to be between Historical Context and Early Sources.
I think it makes more sense to present the "facts" of the man first, and then get deeper into the discussion of his actual existence, or lack thereof.
What are other opinions?
EAKugler ( talk) 22:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Whereas, from a usability standpoint, I think it would be much more useful to know what the guy is supposed to have done, as opposed to focusing so much on whether he actually existed. I think the way this site is presented, it puts too much emphasis on the lack of information we have on that time period. EAKugler ( talk) 00:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This hints at what (for me at least) could be a fascinating question: how do historians say "with certainty" that anyone existed? I suppose there is some threshold of contemporary documents that make it highly probable the person actually lived and did what was claimed, but even today under the glare of multiple network cameras the media sometimes gets it wrong.
Anyway, if someone knowledgeable about this topic could find a way to link to an article on historical "certainty" and how it is determined, it might be helpful. Thanks. 70.162.156.229 ( talk) 01:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
It might be useful to link to historical method to clarify. EAKugler ( talk) 00:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
"Historical method" in this case means that we accept what the sources tell us -- unless there is good reason to question their veracity. Although Bede, the first writer to mention Ælle, wrote a couple of centuries after the Sussex king lived, experts are willing to accept what he states without hesitation. What is written about him in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle may indeed be legends or simply wrong, but it's all we have about the person; again we have no strong reason to doubt its veracity -- beyond generic skepticism. If anything, the few hints we have about the veracity of this part of the Chronicle -- for example, the language in the relevant passages -- indicate that this is at least an early tradition, if not in general outline the truth. Primary sources do lie, but far less often than non-historians assume. And always for reasons we can determine.
But to my original point: this article doesn't need weasel words like "if he existed" sprinkled through the text; no one -- let alone any serious authority on this period -- believes he never existed, these qualifications imply an opinion no one has. And unless someone objects, I will remove these unneeded words from the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 17:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Given that the Dumnonia article states that it's unknown whether Cornwall was ever even part of Dumnonia, would it be an idea to say something like "Dumnonia (modern Devon)", rather than "Dumnonia (modern Cornwall)"? Carre ( talk) 13:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a lack of archaeological context in this article. The detail can follow if there's any interest, but for the moment it's worth noting that the attested fifth century archaeological in Sussex is situated in two parcels of land - between the Arun and the Adur in the west and between the Ouse and the Cuckmere in the east. Despite the tradition about Owers Bank, apart from one sunken hut in the vicinity of Westehampnett, there's no known South Saxon archaeology west of the Arun that predates the seventh century. Bearing in mind that Cymensore is traditionally located close to Selsey as a result of what is now known to be a suspect charter and given the locations of the principal South Saxon settlements, the balance of early settlement should really be shifted eastwards, either around Wick and northern Littlehampton, on Rookery Hill east of the Ouse, or else at Alfriston on the west bank of the Cuckmere. This also has implications for the remainder of the traditional view of South Saxon settlement in Sussex. Aridol ( talk) 20:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ælle of Sussex/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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Biography assessment rating comment ==
WikiProject Biography Assessment Little is known about the Saxon kings. This is complete and referenced enough to warrant a GA. The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
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Last edited at 01:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:21, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Apparently I must justify adding something, since it is acceptable to remove unsourced information (despite there seeming to be case-by-case situations where people aren't allowed to remove spurious, unsourced info.) I'm moving the conversation here:
(Welcome and a note on Aelle)
Hi -- welcome to Wikipedia. I just reverted your addition of a family tree to
Aelle of Sussex and wanted to let you know why. The sons names are already in the article, and you didn't provide a source for the other names; even if you did I don't think they're relevant given that there's no reliable link to those names. I also thinking putting a tree in is giving the relationships too much weight -- at that early date it's very hard to know how much is true and how much is legend. I'd support readding a tree like that if a
reliable source discusses the descendants as being of importance to a discussion of Aelle.
I hope you like editing here; let me know if I can help with anything. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Well, the source is the British Chronicles. But the tree is necessary to understand what Slaughter thinks the link between Cissa (who is not clearly legendary but quite clearly real) and Ricceol was. Henry of Huntingdon and Roger ignored the attested Ricceol and Ricwulf (Probably reversed, so they were actually Ceolric and Wulfric) in favour of making Cissa reign a hundred years. I support at least mentioning the link to Ricceol, Ricsulf and Rhywyrch if not a tree, and making it less biased. Stating some historians don't think he existed is fair and fine. The Pictish wikipedia page notes Wolf's many skepticisms on matrilineality, which is fair to him, to historians and to the historical consensus on the Picts. ÞunoresWrǣþþe ( talk) 13:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Here came Ælle to Britain and with his three sons, Cymen and Wlencing and Cissa, in three ships on the place that is named Cymenesora, and there they slew many Britons and some in flight were driven to the wood that is named Andredesleag. Also, do note the author of te Chronicle says "named" in the present, meaning he fully knows that Cymenesora was not the name at the time. Also, for whoever said Cissa was "clearly fictitious". If you're saying that since you think he's a back-formation for Cissasceaster... He almost certainly isn't. Cissa doesn't mean anything in Old English as far as we know, nor in Brittonic or Latin. Also, it wasn't uncommon for the Germans to rename places after their family members. The Visigoths did it in Spain, with places like Reccopolis (city founded by Recco), Lugopolis (city founded by Lugo's father Liuvigild). ÞunoresWrǣþþe ( talk) 13:38, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
That "refactoring" might well have been a mistake, i.e. an edit conflict, and if so I apologise: the diff you linked to certainly was an edit conflict, so you may well be right. Wikipedia has seemed especially prone to edit conflicts of that sort lately. Believe me, I have been trying to be helpful, and my advice stands. I shall now follow it myself. Best. Nortonius ( talk) 14:03, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
References
In Morris, J (1973). The Age of Arthur Vol. 1. Roman Britain and the Empire of Arthur. the author makes the case that the date of 491 for the sacking of Pevensey is 20 years too late. Morris suggests the error originated with Gildas who gave an incorrect date for when the British asked Aetius for help; this initial error effected the later chronology and was copied by Bede and then the ASC. Malcolm Lyne in Lyne, Malcolm (2009). Excavations at Pevensey Castle, 1936 to 1964. Archaeopress. is convinced by Morris and accepts the 471 date.
I'm reading this in Lyne's book which is focused on Pevensey, so don't know the wider implications of the change in date but I suspect it might mean the a few dates in the 'Early sources' section need to be reconsidered.
On the subject of whether Pevensey was the Andredes cester mentioned in the ASC, the article mentions that there is little archaeological evidence for sustained settlement at Pevensey. Since Greenway wrote something along those lines in 1996, the results of the excavations between 1936 and 1964, and 1993 and 1995 have been published. I don't have the Fulford and Rippon volume immediately to hand but Lyne's report notes that 5th century pottery was found at Pevensey indicating occupation, and there is archaeological evidence that some buildings were burnt in the 5th century which might tally with the ASC. Richard Nevell ( talk) 13:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)