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On 1 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Perkwunos to *Perkʷūnos. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Was he really "an Indo-European thunder god"? I don't think there were other thunder gods in the PIE pantheon... -- Ghirla | talk 07:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Most likely non-IE: aš-parán. As most mythological elements in PIE. -- Burehcsuonimluf ( talk) 17:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Material: Ai. parkati:- `heiliger Feigenbaum', nind. parga:i `Steineiche'; venet. VN Quarque:ni `Eichenmänner' (lat. Relikt?); Nymphis Percernibus vielleicht ligurisch (Vaucluse); lat. quercus f. `Eiche'; ital.-trent. porca `Föhre' (rät. *porca); kelt. Hercynia silva `das deutsche Mittelgebirge' (aus *Perkunia:, älter *Perkwunia:), cymr. perth f. `Busch, Hecke' (*kwerkw-t-?); kelt. VN Querquerni (goidel.) in Hispania Tarrac.; aus *Perkunia: wohl entlehnt germ. *fergunio:, ahd. Fergunna `Erzgebirge', mhd. Virgunt f. `Waldgebirge westlich Böhmens', got. fai/rguni n. `Gebirge', ags. firgen `Waldhöhe'; ahd. fereheih, langob. fereha `Speiseeiche', aisl. fjo,rr m. `Baum, Mann'; ablaut. ahd. forha `Kiefer', ags. furh; aisl. fura f. `Föhre', fy:ri n. `Föhrenwald'; aus ahd. *forh-ist `Föhrenwald': nhd. Forst; aus ahd. kien-forha (kien- zu ags. cen `Kienfackel', ablaut. zu ags. ci:nan, oben S. 355) wird nhd. Kiefer; unsicher ob nach Vendryes RC 44, 313 ff. hierher auch got. fairhwus `Welt', ags. feorh, ahd. ferah `Leben', wgerm. Alaferhuiae (= *Alaferhwio:s), zu aisl. fi:ra:r (*firhw-jo:R), ags. fi:ras Pl. `Männer' usw.; alit. perku/nas Donnergott, lit. perku/nas `Donner', perku/nija f. `Gewitter', let. pe:\,rkuo^ns `Donner,Donnergott', apr. percunis `Donner'; aruss. Perunù `Donnergott', russ. peru/n `Donnerkeil, Blitz' sind volksetymol. nach slav. *pero: `schlage' umgestaltet; unklar ist ai. Parja/nya- `Gewittergott' (s. oben unter <a href="lemma=per-3">per-3</A>, perg-).
Material: Arisch nur mit t-Formans: ai. p.r/t-, p.r/tana: `Kampf, Streit', av. p@r@t-, p@s^an a: `Kampf, Schlacht', p@r@tamna `die miteinander Kämpfenden', paiti-par@tata `bekämpft'; arm. hari `ich schlug' (Aor. zum Präs. harkanem, s. u.), harac `vulnus'; orot `Donne r', orotam `donnere'; alb. pres `haue ab, nieder; schneide', Aor. preva, me' pret `es kümmert mich, ist mir angel egen', pritem `werde geschnitten; zerkratze mich; kümmere mich um etwas'; lat. premo:, -ere, pressi, pressum `drücke', pre:lum `Presse, Kelter' (*pres-lom); Wurzel < i>pr-em- (mit durativem -em-) und pr-es- wie gr. [tre/mw] `zittere: [tre/w]' (*treso: ) ds.; lit. periu\, per~ti `mit dem Badequast schlagen, jemanden baden; schlagen', let. per/u, pe\rt ds .; lit. pirti\s, let. pi\rts `Badestube'; aksl. pero,, pìrati `schlagen, bes. mit dem Bläuel schlagen, waschen', skr. peùre^m, pra ùti `waschen'; ablaut. aksl. pìrjo,, *pìre^ti `contendere', so,-pìrja, s&ug rave;-porù `Streit', c^ech. pr^u, pr^iti se `streiten' und aksl. *pìro,, *p erti in russ. pru, pratì, peretì `drücken, drängen', naporù `Sto&szl ig;' usw., aruss. pìrtì `Badestube'; perg-: arm. harkanem (p.rg-) `schlage, zerhaue (Holz), fälle (Bäume), erschlage, k&aum l;mpfe'; air. orcaid, mir. oirggid `erschlägt, tötet, verwüstet'; mir. cymr. orn `Morden , Zerstören'(*[p]org-no- od. -na:); abret. treorgam `perforo:', orgiat `caesar' (= caesor), gall. orge `occide', PN Orgeto-ri:x; anders über kelt. org- s. Lewis-Pedersen 387 (zu hett. ha rganu- `zerstören'; vgl. das air. Verbalnomen orcun aus *orgena:); vielleicht hierher ai. Parja/ny a- Regen- und Gewittergott; s. unter <a href="lemma=perk%BAu-s">perkwu-s</A>. Lit.: WP. II 42 f., WH. II 288, Trautmann 215; Vgl.: weiter zu <a href="lemma=perg-1">perg-1</A>. S.: 818-819
Here is a quote from an earlier version of the Wiki article: [ http://meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Baltic/baltic_gods.htm . It was Mordovian, a Finnic people, not Moldovan, a Romance people. Alexander 007 12:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to expand Thunderstones with details. I just started it. It's already been remarked (I'll get the link) that this may explain even more the semantic relationship between stones and thunder gods. My primary reference at the moment is Charles Fort's Book of the Damned, 1919. Alexander 007 13:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What does Bagme Bloma have to do with this? 66.92.237.111 05:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that so many reconstructed Proto Indo-European words I've seen begin with an asterisk? Knyght27 09:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I can neither read nor type the page title (I see a rectangle Perkʷunos). So it should be changed to Perkunos or Perkwunos and redirects used. -- Henrygb 10:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved page. It didn't render right in my browser regardless of what text encoding I used. I'm forced to use MSIE, but I suspect your average reader would be too. -- malber 21:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
For Xavier Delamarre, "Le vocabulaire indo-européen" (Indo-European Vocabular), 1984, there would be another name for the god of storm (and war), the form *Mawor, that we find in the roman Mars (Mavors), the indian Marut, and perhaps the latvian Martins.
I heard that Thor went back to an IE root like ton, related to tonare, and not tar. Could be related, though. Also, this pageonly discusses the origin of the word "Perkwuno" in length, not tar. 惑乱 分からん 21:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
A Balticist J. Pashka has proposed an etymology related to PIE * per- to bear. He writes " I note Sanskrit Paru - knotty, having joints ( esp. of reed, or cane ) and Lith. Peras - jointed plant shoot ( e.g. of reed ) cluster, as well as white "knotty" or "jointed" larvae cluster, or brood cluster, bear close etymological affinities ( for -as vs.-us, note Lith. Vėjas vs. dialect Vėjus ). This "cluster" could be of stones, clouds, rock, eggs, sprouts, larvae, chicks, church goers, reeds or stars. From the eggs & seeds of PIE * per- to bear, begets the "cluster". That cluster becomes a cloud ( Perunaš, Peraun ), or if rock becomes a mountain ( Perunant-, Paruuatā ). Perūne, Perōni, Peräune, Peraun, Perunŭ, Perunaš are all related "cluster" cognates. GAS influenced Perkons & Parjanya are also related, and especially to each other - due specifically to Volga-Ural inter-ethnic contact. " ( J. Pashka © Virdainas ). It is a alternate viewpoint. Sudowite ( talk) 14:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure someone has some info on why a thundergod is so closely linked to the oak. Right? -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 21:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Hittite *ḫ- does not come from PIE *p-, so it is entirely false to claim that Hittie ḫarganu- is a reflex of PIE *per- or *perg-. Hittite ḫarnink- 'destroy' and ḫark- 'perish' are indeed cognate with OIr orgaid 'slays', but these are derivatives PIE *h₃ergʰ-, with no initial *p- (see a standard reference, LIV, the Lexicon of Indo-European Verbs). There can be no connection with Slavic *perūn-.
I am deleting these claims from article. If someone can cite some *recent* literature that supports the relationship (Pokorny is completely out of date in respect to Anatolian), it can be reinserted, but only with a reasonable literature citation. Rilkas ( talk) 01:28, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
This article has to be moved under its actual referent, Perkʷunos (with redirect from Perkwunos, of course, to cope with people almost exclusively typing "kw" due to keyboard restrictions). Proto-Indo-European had plenty of roots/words containing ordinary kw; that consonant cluster is not the same as the phoneme kʷ.-- IfYouDoIfYouDon't ( talk) 10:16, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. We have a page named " kʷetwóres rule", so there's no problem doing this. Tewdar ( talk) 12:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm leaving here literature on the subject, which was first proposed, as far as I'm concerned, by Mr. Leo Klejn in the 1980s. The titles were extracted from: Leach, Stephen. A Russian Perspective on Theoretical Archaeology: The Life and Work of Leo S. Klejn. Routledge. 2016. XX. The Religion of the Slavs ISBN 978-1-62958-138-5
I saw the {{ cleanup lang}} template on this article, and did half of the work in marking non-English text, but there's a bunch of it remaining: I made it to the § Evidence section before having to call it a night. There's also verification, especially in the "Depiction" section – in many places I couldn't tell what language a given term was supposed to be in, based on context in the text. This illustrative paragraph (from § Fructifying rains) was particularly tricky, as it goes back and forth between languages:
While his thunder and lightning had a destructive connotation, they could also be seen as a regenerative force since they were often accompanied by fructifying rains. Parjanya[probably Sanskrit?] is depicted as a rain god in the Vedas[likewise Sanskrit?], and Latvian prayers included a call for Pērkōns[Latvian] to bring rain in time of drought. The Balkan Slavs worshipped Perun[probably South Slavic, code 'sla'] along with his female counterpart Perperuna[same?], the name of a ritual prayer calling for fructifying rains and centred on the dance of a naked virgin who had not yet had her first monthly period. The earth is likewise referred to as "menstruating" in a Vedic hymn to Parjanya[Sanskrit?], a possible cognate of Perperuna[assuming Slavic]. The alternative name of Perperuna, Dodola[Slavic??], also recalls Perkūnas'[Latvian] pseudonym Dundulis[assuming Latvian?], and Zeus' oak oracle located at Dodona[?? Ancient Greek ??].
I was also unsure about some terms that are well-known in English, like Thor and Jupiter and Zeus and Apollo, which in principle are Old Norse (non
), Latin (la
) and Ancient Greek (grc
), but an argument can be made that they're English, especially when written "Thor, Jupiter, Zeus, Apollo" and not "Þórr (or *Þunaraz), Iuppiter, Ζεύς, Ἀπόλλων". I left these assimilated terms untagged.
In any case, the tagging has been done, and while I want to say it's mostly correct, I'm sure there's mistakes I missed. I left some comments in the source in a couple of ambiguous places, also, so somebody who knows the literature knows what to verify. (One can also add |italic=no
to where it's felt necessary.)
oatco
(talk) 01:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this sentence: "In the Albanian language, a word to refer to the lightning—considered in folk beliefs as the "fire of the sky"—is shkreptimë, a formation of shkrep meaning "to flash, tone, to strike (till sparks fly off)" "? What does it have to do with Perkunas? Why is it added here?
OK, they first inserted something about some "Perendi", which might or might not have something to do with Perkunas, no one is objecting to that, but this pushing of Albanian themes totally unrelated to the issue at hand is really stupid in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.227.84 ( talk) 06:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
And then half of this page is about the Vedic god Parjanya. Can someone please explain? Is India considered "Western"? Rhosnes ( talk) 19:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Walhaz which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 13:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
A fact from *Perkʷūnos appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 26 January 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 1 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Perkwunos to *Perkʷūnos. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Was he really "an Indo-European thunder god"? I don't think there were other thunder gods in the PIE pantheon... -- Ghirla | talk 07:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Most likely non-IE: aš-parán. As most mythological elements in PIE. -- Burehcsuonimluf ( talk) 17:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Material: Ai. parkati:- `heiliger Feigenbaum', nind. parga:i `Steineiche'; venet. VN Quarque:ni `Eichenmänner' (lat. Relikt?); Nymphis Percernibus vielleicht ligurisch (Vaucluse); lat. quercus f. `Eiche'; ital.-trent. porca `Föhre' (rät. *porca); kelt. Hercynia silva `das deutsche Mittelgebirge' (aus *Perkunia:, älter *Perkwunia:), cymr. perth f. `Busch, Hecke' (*kwerkw-t-?); kelt. VN Querquerni (goidel.) in Hispania Tarrac.; aus *Perkunia: wohl entlehnt germ. *fergunio:, ahd. Fergunna `Erzgebirge', mhd. Virgunt f. `Waldgebirge westlich Böhmens', got. fai/rguni n. `Gebirge', ags. firgen `Waldhöhe'; ahd. fereheih, langob. fereha `Speiseeiche', aisl. fjo,rr m. `Baum, Mann'; ablaut. ahd. forha `Kiefer', ags. furh; aisl. fura f. `Föhre', fy:ri n. `Föhrenwald'; aus ahd. *forh-ist `Föhrenwald': nhd. Forst; aus ahd. kien-forha (kien- zu ags. cen `Kienfackel', ablaut. zu ags. ci:nan, oben S. 355) wird nhd. Kiefer; unsicher ob nach Vendryes RC 44, 313 ff. hierher auch got. fairhwus `Welt', ags. feorh, ahd. ferah `Leben', wgerm. Alaferhuiae (= *Alaferhwio:s), zu aisl. fi:ra:r (*firhw-jo:R), ags. fi:ras Pl. `Männer' usw.; alit. perku/nas Donnergott, lit. perku/nas `Donner', perku/nija f. `Gewitter', let. pe:\,rkuo^ns `Donner,Donnergott', apr. percunis `Donner'; aruss. Perunù `Donnergott', russ. peru/n `Donnerkeil, Blitz' sind volksetymol. nach slav. *pero: `schlage' umgestaltet; unklar ist ai. Parja/nya- `Gewittergott' (s. oben unter <a href="lemma=per-3">per-3</A>, perg-).
Material: Arisch nur mit t-Formans: ai. p.r/t-, p.r/tana: `Kampf, Streit', av. p@r@t-, p@s^an a: `Kampf, Schlacht', p@r@tamna `die miteinander Kämpfenden', paiti-par@tata `bekämpft'; arm. hari `ich schlug' (Aor. zum Präs. harkanem, s. u.), harac `vulnus'; orot `Donne r', orotam `donnere'; alb. pres `haue ab, nieder; schneide', Aor. preva, me' pret `es kümmert mich, ist mir angel egen', pritem `werde geschnitten; zerkratze mich; kümmere mich um etwas'; lat. premo:, -ere, pressi, pressum `drücke', pre:lum `Presse, Kelter' (*pres-lom); Wurzel < i>pr-em- (mit durativem -em-) und pr-es- wie gr. [tre/mw] `zittere: [tre/w]' (*treso: ) ds.; lit. periu\, per~ti `mit dem Badequast schlagen, jemanden baden; schlagen', let. per/u, pe\rt ds .; lit. pirti\s, let. pi\rts `Badestube'; aksl. pero,, pìrati `schlagen, bes. mit dem Bläuel schlagen, waschen', skr. peùre^m, pra ùti `waschen'; ablaut. aksl. pìrjo,, *pìre^ti `contendere', so,-pìrja, s&ug rave;-porù `Streit', c^ech. pr^u, pr^iti se `streiten' und aksl. *pìro,, *p erti in russ. pru, pratì, peretì `drücken, drängen', naporù `Sto&szl ig;' usw., aruss. pìrtì `Badestube'; perg-: arm. harkanem (p.rg-) `schlage, zerhaue (Holz), fälle (Bäume), erschlage, k&aum l;mpfe'; air. orcaid, mir. oirggid `erschlägt, tötet, verwüstet'; mir. cymr. orn `Morden , Zerstören'(*[p]org-no- od. -na:); abret. treorgam `perforo:', orgiat `caesar' (= caesor), gall. orge `occide', PN Orgeto-ri:x; anders über kelt. org- s. Lewis-Pedersen 387 (zu hett. ha rganu- `zerstören'; vgl. das air. Verbalnomen orcun aus *orgena:); vielleicht hierher ai. Parja/ny a- Regen- und Gewittergott; s. unter <a href="lemma=perk%BAu-s">perkwu-s</A>. Lit.: WP. II 42 f., WH. II 288, Trautmann 215; Vgl.: weiter zu <a href="lemma=perg-1">perg-1</A>. S.: 818-819
Here is a quote from an earlier version of the Wiki article: [ http://meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Baltic/baltic_gods.htm . It was Mordovian, a Finnic people, not Moldovan, a Romance people. Alexander 007 12:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to expand Thunderstones with details. I just started it. It's already been remarked (I'll get the link) that this may explain even more the semantic relationship between stones and thunder gods. My primary reference at the moment is Charles Fort's Book of the Damned, 1919. Alexander 007 13:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What does Bagme Bloma have to do with this? 66.92.237.111 05:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that so many reconstructed Proto Indo-European words I've seen begin with an asterisk? Knyght27 09:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I can neither read nor type the page title (I see a rectangle Perkʷunos). So it should be changed to Perkunos or Perkwunos and redirects used. -- Henrygb 10:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved page. It didn't render right in my browser regardless of what text encoding I used. I'm forced to use MSIE, but I suspect your average reader would be too. -- malber 21:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
For Xavier Delamarre, "Le vocabulaire indo-européen" (Indo-European Vocabular), 1984, there would be another name for the god of storm (and war), the form *Mawor, that we find in the roman Mars (Mavors), the indian Marut, and perhaps the latvian Martins.
I heard that Thor went back to an IE root like ton, related to tonare, and not tar. Could be related, though. Also, this pageonly discusses the origin of the word "Perkwuno" in length, not tar. 惑乱 分からん 21:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
A Balticist J. Pashka has proposed an etymology related to PIE * per- to bear. He writes " I note Sanskrit Paru - knotty, having joints ( esp. of reed, or cane ) and Lith. Peras - jointed plant shoot ( e.g. of reed ) cluster, as well as white "knotty" or "jointed" larvae cluster, or brood cluster, bear close etymological affinities ( for -as vs.-us, note Lith. Vėjas vs. dialect Vėjus ). This "cluster" could be of stones, clouds, rock, eggs, sprouts, larvae, chicks, church goers, reeds or stars. From the eggs & seeds of PIE * per- to bear, begets the "cluster". That cluster becomes a cloud ( Perunaš, Peraun ), or if rock becomes a mountain ( Perunant-, Paruuatā ). Perūne, Perōni, Peräune, Peraun, Perunŭ, Perunaš are all related "cluster" cognates. GAS influenced Perkons & Parjanya are also related, and especially to each other - due specifically to Volga-Ural inter-ethnic contact. " ( J. Pashka © Virdainas ). It is a alternate viewpoint. Sudowite ( talk) 14:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure someone has some info on why a thundergod is so closely linked to the oak. Right? -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 21:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Hittite *ḫ- does not come from PIE *p-, so it is entirely false to claim that Hittie ḫarganu- is a reflex of PIE *per- or *perg-. Hittite ḫarnink- 'destroy' and ḫark- 'perish' are indeed cognate with OIr orgaid 'slays', but these are derivatives PIE *h₃ergʰ-, with no initial *p- (see a standard reference, LIV, the Lexicon of Indo-European Verbs). There can be no connection with Slavic *perūn-.
I am deleting these claims from article. If someone can cite some *recent* literature that supports the relationship (Pokorny is completely out of date in respect to Anatolian), it can be reinserted, but only with a reasonable literature citation. Rilkas ( talk) 01:28, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
This article has to be moved under its actual referent, Perkʷunos (with redirect from Perkwunos, of course, to cope with people almost exclusively typing "kw" due to keyboard restrictions). Proto-Indo-European had plenty of roots/words containing ordinary kw; that consonant cluster is not the same as the phoneme kʷ.-- IfYouDoIfYouDon't ( talk) 10:16, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. We have a page named " kʷetwóres rule", so there's no problem doing this. Tewdar ( talk) 12:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm leaving here literature on the subject, which was first proposed, as far as I'm concerned, by Mr. Leo Klejn in the 1980s. The titles were extracted from: Leach, Stephen. A Russian Perspective on Theoretical Archaeology: The Life and Work of Leo S. Klejn. Routledge. 2016. XX. The Religion of the Slavs ISBN 978-1-62958-138-5
I saw the {{ cleanup lang}} template on this article, and did half of the work in marking non-English text, but there's a bunch of it remaining: I made it to the § Evidence section before having to call it a night. There's also verification, especially in the "Depiction" section – in many places I couldn't tell what language a given term was supposed to be in, based on context in the text. This illustrative paragraph (from § Fructifying rains) was particularly tricky, as it goes back and forth between languages:
While his thunder and lightning had a destructive connotation, they could also be seen as a regenerative force since they were often accompanied by fructifying rains. Parjanya[probably Sanskrit?] is depicted as a rain god in the Vedas[likewise Sanskrit?], and Latvian prayers included a call for Pērkōns[Latvian] to bring rain in time of drought. The Balkan Slavs worshipped Perun[probably South Slavic, code 'sla'] along with his female counterpart Perperuna[same?], the name of a ritual prayer calling for fructifying rains and centred on the dance of a naked virgin who had not yet had her first monthly period. The earth is likewise referred to as "menstruating" in a Vedic hymn to Parjanya[Sanskrit?], a possible cognate of Perperuna[assuming Slavic]. The alternative name of Perperuna, Dodola[Slavic??], also recalls Perkūnas'[Latvian] pseudonym Dundulis[assuming Latvian?], and Zeus' oak oracle located at Dodona[?? Ancient Greek ??].
I was also unsure about some terms that are well-known in English, like Thor and Jupiter and Zeus and Apollo, which in principle are Old Norse (non
), Latin (la
) and Ancient Greek (grc
), but an argument can be made that they're English, especially when written "Thor, Jupiter, Zeus, Apollo" and not "Þórr (or *Þunaraz), Iuppiter, Ζεύς, Ἀπόλλων". I left these assimilated terms untagged.
In any case, the tagging has been done, and while I want to say it's mostly correct, I'm sure there's mistakes I missed. I left some comments in the source in a couple of ambiguous places, also, so somebody who knows the literature knows what to verify. (One can also add |italic=no
to where it's felt necessary.)
oatco
(talk) 01:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this sentence: "In the Albanian language, a word to refer to the lightning—considered in folk beliefs as the "fire of the sky"—is shkreptimë, a formation of shkrep meaning "to flash, tone, to strike (till sparks fly off)" "? What does it have to do with Perkunas? Why is it added here?
OK, they first inserted something about some "Perendi", which might or might not have something to do with Perkunas, no one is objecting to that, but this pushing of Albanian themes totally unrelated to the issue at hand is really stupid in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.227.84 ( talk) 06:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
And then half of this page is about the Vedic god Parjanya. Can someone please explain? Is India considered "Western"? Rhosnes ( talk) 19:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Walhaz which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 13:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)