This portal is a former featured portal candidate. Please see the links under Portal milestones below for its original nomination page and why the nomination failed. | ||||||||||
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
portal about
Western Sahara.
Content dispute discussions should take place on the appropriate article's talk page. For discussions about general portal development, please see the
WikiProject Portals talk page. If you are a regular maintainer of this portal, please add yourself to this list. |
This page was nominated for deletion on 13 April 2019. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Africa: Western Sahara Portal‑class | ||||||||||
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Portals | ||||||||||||||||
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Hi - I'd just like to compliment you on the quality of the Western Sahara portal you established today. It is always an excellent surprise to see portals of the quality of yours being added to the namespace, as opposed to the generally sub-standard portal we usually get. If this is maintained then a WP:FPORT nomination may well be in the wings... Deano ( Talk) 15:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Western Sahara is a territory disputed between Morocco and Polisario, each side has its own arguments which they think suffiscient, the UN is trying now to resolve the problem through a referundum. First of all, the problem is about neutrality of WP, the flag shown in this section is the flag used by one party of the conflict (polisario) and refused by the other (Morocco) and not recognized by the UN (the mediator in this conflict). There was an edit conflict about the infobox of Western Sahara page between me in one side and you and Arre in the other, a survey was necessary and the results are here and here. You see that the "no flags" option seems to be the least controversial solution, the "two flags" option was the second choice, displaying only one flag was the worst solution. Let's comply with WP principles of neutrality. You have to accept other side's opinions, stop your blind war edit. Daryou 18:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Koavf, you are the founder of the WS Wiki Project. Nice job, YOU wrote that
Why are contradicting yourself? :) Daryou 22:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
===>Not a contradiction
Simple. :) Justin (koavf) 23:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
===>Still not a contradiction Since other sources use it, it's viable to expect that users will use it, too. I want to standardize it, whcih means that it is not a standard as of yet. Justin (koavf) 23:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
===>The term is used in more than one way As I explicitly stated, it does not only refer to the geographic definition. Sources for what? I'll give you two more neutral sources that refer to this as the "flag of Western Sahara":
The former calls Western Sahara a " state" and the latter doesn't even include the phrase "Sahrawi Arab Democratic Repbulic" under "official name".
===>Here are several unbiased, checkable, Internet sources that have a "flag of Western Sahara." I found them within three minutes by typing "flag of Western Sahara" into a Google image search:
So now I'll revert it again. Justin (koavf) 20:57, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
===>Impossible Either you're neutral, or you aren't. It's impossible to be "more neutral" than someone else. It's like being more dead or less pregnant. Justin (koavf) 16:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
From [1] :
The SADR flag is widely used (you can try and google this yourself) as the flag of Western Sahara. There is absolutely no problem with saying that it is widely used.
The only flag I have been able to find for the Southern Provinces is [2] for the Province of Boujdour. - FrancisTyers 23:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, this flag is widely used as the flag of WS because there is a general confusion between WS (a disputed territory) and SADR (the self proclaimed Republic), the sources using this flag are either pro-polisario or ill-informed. The SADR isn't recognized by the UN and 147 states (over 192) neither is its flag. The conflict is under UN mediation, untill it's resolved, WP should be unbiased without any pro-polisario or pro-Moroccan stance.
Daryou 16:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
===> Foreign relations of Western Sahara Bear in mind that there are legitimate governments that do recognize the SADR, so according to those sources, this is the flag of Western Sahara. Furthermore, a lack of recognition is not, nor does it imply, an illegitimacy toward the SADR. Justin (koavf) 16:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Architecture of Africa is currently nominated on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Come to this page and support it with your vote. Help us improve this article to featured status.-- Fenice 08:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Including Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands? — [ Unsigned comment added by 213.250.143.131 ( talk • contribs).]
Cheers wikima 21:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
My objections - Try to reasd thorugh, I have no time to formatt.
WS Portal:
Introduction
"Amnesty International and a number of experts in international law characterise this control as military occupation".
"The remainder is under the administration of the SADR".
"Colonized by Spain from 1884–1976 as Spanish Sahara, the process of decolonization was never completed"
"the native population, the Sahrawis, did not exercise their right to self-determination"
Featured article
Did you know...
Biase, just biase:
Western Sahara Topics
Information must be completed e.g.:
Web Resources
Almost all pro-polisario activist propaganda.
Western Sahara News
Selected Bigorpahy
Quotes
Etc. etc...
Cheers wikima 18:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Introduction
"Colonized by Spain from 1884–1976 as Spanish Sahara, the process of decolonization was never completed"
"the native population, the Sahrawis, did not exercise their right to self-determination"
Featured article
Did you know...
Western Sahara Topics
Information must be completed e.g.:
Web Resources
Western Sahara News
Selected Bigorpahy
Quotes
Again, the best way to make progress is to have a proposed text to replace the current one. If you can write up one, that would be great. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 18:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
wikima 20:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The portal is too POV. (see comments on Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Western Sahara) I therefore deleted 3 POV sections. S710 07:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Any discussion about Western Sahara quickly degenerates into a near-hysterical shouting match between those who believe it should be part of Morocco and those that support Sahrawi independence under the leadership of the Polisario, and unfortunatley this has happened here on Wikipedia. The material on Western Sahara needs to recognise that there are conflicting claims to the territory, and that the territory remains disputed and is effectively partitioned. Most of the territory is under Moroccan control, and the Moroccan flag may presumably be seen widely in this zone, which is referred to by the Polisario and many Sahrawi, but not by Morocco or Moroccans, as the "Occupied Territories". However, there is a sizeable (but much smaller) portion of Western Sahara that is controlled by the Polisario, and in this zone the Polisario flag is seen frequently.
The flag used by the Polisario is the flag of the self-proclaimed SADR, which is recognised by a number of developing countries and most African nations (the figures need to be checked and kept updated). I'm not sure how many countries explicitly recognise Morocco as the legitimate authority in Western Sahara (again check and update), but I believe the numbers who recognise Morocco's jurisdiction and the numbers that recognise the Polisario's authority are comparable. Many other countries do not have an official position, although may effectively support one side or the other. Some of the comments here are trying to push a POV by comparing recognition of one side's position with non-recognition - if we are interested in this sort of comparison the figures that should be compared are countries explicitly recognising the Polisario position with those explicitly recognising the Moroccan position.
The SADR and the territory of Western Sahara are equivalent as far as the Polisario and those countries who recognise their sovereignty are concerned. To the UN, who remain officially neutral, and to any actors who do not recognise Polisario authority, the SADR and Western Sahara are not equivalent. Surely this can be stated firmly and without any danger of bias towards one side or another.
Both sides in the conflict accuse each other of human rights abuses and general bad behaviour. Some of these accusations have a basis and some (many) do not. The best approach here is to list the _accusations_ and point to reports from independent bodies on the human rights situation.
This really shouldn't be a difficult section to write - it's a pity that it appears to have been infiltrated by people who are blatantly partisan. We all have our views on the conflict, and I have mine, but if we are to present accurate information we have to distance ourselves from our own views. If we do not, it will be obvious that a lot of the material is propaganda and counter-propaganda, and the Western Sahara material will not be trusted. Pushing a POV is counterproductive.
We have to forget about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys and be as objective as possible, acknowledging that there are conflicting points of view.
A little more emotional distance - please!
Something that I discovered very recently that might be of interest is that the Moroccan wall or berm is not restricted to within the territory of Western Sahara, but actually extends into Mauritania, contrary to how it is depicted on maps, including the MINURSO map. You can see it on Google Earth.
Nickbrooks 18:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Separate sections I've restored the deleted sections to this portal, but not their content. If you have a problem with a POV issue in a given section, the talk page of that section is the most appropriate place for it. If you have a POV problem with the Portal per se, here is the best place to discuss it. I'm assuming the latter is not the case. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 14:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that if we all helped out in western sahara to make things better for the people in western sahara. We could give them money if you really think about it when you say that you have no money and that you only have a couple of dollars they dont even have that i mean we cant even imagine how the poor people in western sahara live out there but yet we still dont care i mean look how we livin we have it good when out in western sahara they have boms out there everyday and policemen that are way worser than ours so all im sayin is that there is a lot of people in western sahara that need some help and so all we have to do is care more and stop thinkin abot our selfs because they go through a lot more stuff than we do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.66.149 ( talk) 05:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
This is rather "Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic Portal" than "Western Sahara Portal". The portal is not about the territory but related to the POV of one of the two belligerents, the POLISARIO. The Portal, by its style and content is far from neutrality. Thus the portal should definitely renamed to "SADR Portal" or "POLISARIO Portal"
Wimmiden ( talk) 12:50, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
WikiProject Portals is back!
The project was rebooted and completely overhauled on April 17th, 2018. Its goals are to revitalize the entire portal system, make building and maintaining portals easier, support the ongoing improvement of portals and the editors dedicated to this, and design the portals of the future.
As of May 2nd, 2018, membership is at 60 editors, and growing. You are welcome to join us.
There are design initiatives for revitalizing the portals system as a whole, and for improving each component of portals. So far, 2 new dynamic components have been developed: Template:Transclude lead excerpt and Template:Transclude random excerpt.
Tools are provided for building and maintaining portals, including automated portals that update themselves in various ways.
And, if you are bored and would like something to occupy your mind, we have a wonderful task list.
From your friendly neighborhood Portals WikiProject. Hope to see you there. Sincerely, — The Transhumanist 07:50, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
This portal has been updated and expanded in 2019. Additional articles for the portal can be considered from those available in the table listed below. North America 1000 06:02, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Western Sahara articles by quality and importance | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Quality | Importance | ||||||
Top | High | Mid | Low | NA | ??? | Total | |
FA | 12 | 12 | |||||
GA | 12 | 1 | 13 | ||||
B | 5 | 4 | 1 | 10 | 4 | 24 | |
C | 15 | 7 | 4 | 44 | 22 | 92 | |
Start | 15 | 17 | 33 | 174 | 131 | 370 | |
Stub | 1 | 10 | 83 | 67 | 161 | ||
List | 1 | 2 | 5 | 11 | 11 | 30 | |
Category | 1 | 454 | 455 | ||||
Disambig | 5 | 5 | |||||
File | 1 | 64 | 65 | ||||
Portal | 27 | 27 | |||||
Project | 28 | 28 | |||||
Redirect | 3 | 5 | 322 | 330 | |||
Template | 2 | 71 | 73 | ||||
Other | 3 | 3 | |||||
Assessed | 39 | 31 | 53 | 355 | 974 | 236 | 1,688 |
Total | 39 | 31 | 53 | 355 | 974 | 236 | 1,688 |
WikiWork factors ( ?) | ω = 3,282 | Ω = 4.88 |
This portal is a former featured portal candidate. Please see the links under Portal milestones below for its original nomination page and why the nomination failed. | ||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
portal about
Western Sahara.
Content dispute discussions should take place on the appropriate article's talk page. For discussions about general portal development, please see the
WikiProject Portals talk page. If you are a regular maintainer of this portal, please add yourself to this list. |
This page was nominated for deletion on 13 April 2019. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Africa: Western Sahara Portal‑class | ||||||||||
|
Portals | ||||||||||||||||
|
Automated portal content suggestions ( ) The following suggestions have been automatically generated as content that might be suitable for the portal, subject to review by a human editor. Please do not mindlessly copy items to the portal page without first checking that the suggestions are appropriate.
|
Hi - I'd just like to compliment you on the quality of the Western Sahara portal you established today. It is always an excellent surprise to see portals of the quality of yours being added to the namespace, as opposed to the generally sub-standard portal we usually get. If this is maintained then a WP:FPORT nomination may well be in the wings... Deano ( Talk) 15:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Western Sahara is a territory disputed between Morocco and Polisario, each side has its own arguments which they think suffiscient, the UN is trying now to resolve the problem through a referundum. First of all, the problem is about neutrality of WP, the flag shown in this section is the flag used by one party of the conflict (polisario) and refused by the other (Morocco) and not recognized by the UN (the mediator in this conflict). There was an edit conflict about the infobox of Western Sahara page between me in one side and you and Arre in the other, a survey was necessary and the results are here and here. You see that the "no flags" option seems to be the least controversial solution, the "two flags" option was the second choice, displaying only one flag was the worst solution. Let's comply with WP principles of neutrality. You have to accept other side's opinions, stop your blind war edit. Daryou 18:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Koavf, you are the founder of the WS Wiki Project. Nice job, YOU wrote that
Why are contradicting yourself? :) Daryou 22:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
===>Not a contradiction
Simple. :) Justin (koavf) 23:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
===>Still not a contradiction Since other sources use it, it's viable to expect that users will use it, too. I want to standardize it, whcih means that it is not a standard as of yet. Justin (koavf) 23:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
===>The term is used in more than one way As I explicitly stated, it does not only refer to the geographic definition. Sources for what? I'll give you two more neutral sources that refer to this as the "flag of Western Sahara":
The former calls Western Sahara a " state" and the latter doesn't even include the phrase "Sahrawi Arab Democratic Repbulic" under "official name".
===>Here are several unbiased, checkable, Internet sources that have a "flag of Western Sahara." I found them within three minutes by typing "flag of Western Sahara" into a Google image search:
So now I'll revert it again. Justin (koavf) 20:57, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
===>Impossible Either you're neutral, or you aren't. It's impossible to be "more neutral" than someone else. It's like being more dead or less pregnant. Justin (koavf) 16:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
From [1] :
The SADR flag is widely used (you can try and google this yourself) as the flag of Western Sahara. There is absolutely no problem with saying that it is widely used.
The only flag I have been able to find for the Southern Provinces is [2] for the Province of Boujdour. - FrancisTyers 23:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, this flag is widely used as the flag of WS because there is a general confusion between WS (a disputed territory) and SADR (the self proclaimed Republic), the sources using this flag are either pro-polisario or ill-informed. The SADR isn't recognized by the UN and 147 states (over 192) neither is its flag. The conflict is under UN mediation, untill it's resolved, WP should be unbiased without any pro-polisario or pro-Moroccan stance.
Daryou 16:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
===> Foreign relations of Western Sahara Bear in mind that there are legitimate governments that do recognize the SADR, so according to those sources, this is the flag of Western Sahara. Furthermore, a lack of recognition is not, nor does it imply, an illegitimacy toward the SADR. Justin (koavf) 16:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Architecture of Africa is currently nominated on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Come to this page and support it with your vote. Help us improve this article to featured status.-- Fenice 08:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Including Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands? — [ Unsigned comment added by 213.250.143.131 ( talk • contribs).]
Cheers wikima 21:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
My objections - Try to reasd thorugh, I have no time to formatt.
WS Portal:
Introduction
"Amnesty International and a number of experts in international law characterise this control as military occupation".
"The remainder is under the administration of the SADR".
"Colonized by Spain from 1884–1976 as Spanish Sahara, the process of decolonization was never completed"
"the native population, the Sahrawis, did not exercise their right to self-determination"
Featured article
Did you know...
Biase, just biase:
Western Sahara Topics
Information must be completed e.g.:
Web Resources
Almost all pro-polisario activist propaganda.
Western Sahara News
Selected Bigorpahy
Quotes
Etc. etc...
Cheers wikima 18:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Introduction
"Colonized by Spain from 1884–1976 as Spanish Sahara, the process of decolonization was never completed"
"the native population, the Sahrawis, did not exercise their right to self-determination"
Featured article
Did you know...
Western Sahara Topics
Information must be completed e.g.:
Web Resources
Western Sahara News
Selected Bigorpahy
Quotes
Again, the best way to make progress is to have a proposed text to replace the current one. If you can write up one, that would be great. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 18:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
wikima 20:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The portal is too POV. (see comments on Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Western Sahara) I therefore deleted 3 POV sections. S710 07:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Any discussion about Western Sahara quickly degenerates into a near-hysterical shouting match between those who believe it should be part of Morocco and those that support Sahrawi independence under the leadership of the Polisario, and unfortunatley this has happened here on Wikipedia. The material on Western Sahara needs to recognise that there are conflicting claims to the territory, and that the territory remains disputed and is effectively partitioned. Most of the territory is under Moroccan control, and the Moroccan flag may presumably be seen widely in this zone, which is referred to by the Polisario and many Sahrawi, but not by Morocco or Moroccans, as the "Occupied Territories". However, there is a sizeable (but much smaller) portion of Western Sahara that is controlled by the Polisario, and in this zone the Polisario flag is seen frequently.
The flag used by the Polisario is the flag of the self-proclaimed SADR, which is recognised by a number of developing countries and most African nations (the figures need to be checked and kept updated). I'm not sure how many countries explicitly recognise Morocco as the legitimate authority in Western Sahara (again check and update), but I believe the numbers who recognise Morocco's jurisdiction and the numbers that recognise the Polisario's authority are comparable. Many other countries do not have an official position, although may effectively support one side or the other. Some of the comments here are trying to push a POV by comparing recognition of one side's position with non-recognition - if we are interested in this sort of comparison the figures that should be compared are countries explicitly recognising the Polisario position with those explicitly recognising the Moroccan position.
The SADR and the territory of Western Sahara are equivalent as far as the Polisario and those countries who recognise their sovereignty are concerned. To the UN, who remain officially neutral, and to any actors who do not recognise Polisario authority, the SADR and Western Sahara are not equivalent. Surely this can be stated firmly and without any danger of bias towards one side or another.
Both sides in the conflict accuse each other of human rights abuses and general bad behaviour. Some of these accusations have a basis and some (many) do not. The best approach here is to list the _accusations_ and point to reports from independent bodies on the human rights situation.
This really shouldn't be a difficult section to write - it's a pity that it appears to have been infiltrated by people who are blatantly partisan. We all have our views on the conflict, and I have mine, but if we are to present accurate information we have to distance ourselves from our own views. If we do not, it will be obvious that a lot of the material is propaganda and counter-propaganda, and the Western Sahara material will not be trusted. Pushing a POV is counterproductive.
We have to forget about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys and be as objective as possible, acknowledging that there are conflicting points of view.
A little more emotional distance - please!
Something that I discovered very recently that might be of interest is that the Moroccan wall or berm is not restricted to within the territory of Western Sahara, but actually extends into Mauritania, contrary to how it is depicted on maps, including the MINURSO map. You can see it on Google Earth.
Nickbrooks 18:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Separate sections I've restored the deleted sections to this portal, but not their content. If you have a problem with a POV issue in a given section, the talk page of that section is the most appropriate place for it. If you have a POV problem with the Portal per se, here is the best place to discuss it. I'm assuming the latter is not the case. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 14:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that if we all helped out in western sahara to make things better for the people in western sahara. We could give them money if you really think about it when you say that you have no money and that you only have a couple of dollars they dont even have that i mean we cant even imagine how the poor people in western sahara live out there but yet we still dont care i mean look how we livin we have it good when out in western sahara they have boms out there everyday and policemen that are way worser than ours so all im sayin is that there is a lot of people in western sahara that need some help and so all we have to do is care more and stop thinkin abot our selfs because they go through a lot more stuff than we do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.66.149 ( talk) 05:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
This is rather "Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic Portal" than "Western Sahara Portal". The portal is not about the territory but related to the POV of one of the two belligerents, the POLISARIO. The Portal, by its style and content is far from neutrality. Thus the portal should definitely renamed to "SADR Portal" or "POLISARIO Portal"
Wimmiden ( talk) 12:50, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
WikiProject Portals is back!
The project was rebooted and completely overhauled on April 17th, 2018. Its goals are to revitalize the entire portal system, make building and maintaining portals easier, support the ongoing improvement of portals and the editors dedicated to this, and design the portals of the future.
As of May 2nd, 2018, membership is at 60 editors, and growing. You are welcome to join us.
There are design initiatives for revitalizing the portals system as a whole, and for improving each component of portals. So far, 2 new dynamic components have been developed: Template:Transclude lead excerpt and Template:Transclude random excerpt.
Tools are provided for building and maintaining portals, including automated portals that update themselves in various ways.
And, if you are bored and would like something to occupy your mind, we have a wonderful task list.
From your friendly neighborhood Portals WikiProject. Hope to see you there. Sincerely, — The Transhumanist 07:50, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
This portal has been updated and expanded in 2019. Additional articles for the portal can be considered from those available in the table listed below. North America 1000 06:02, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Western Sahara articles by quality and importance | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Quality | Importance | ||||||
Top | High | Mid | Low | NA | ??? | Total | |
FA | 12 | 12 | |||||
GA | 12 | 1 | 13 | ||||
B | 5 | 4 | 1 | 10 | 4 | 24 | |
C | 15 | 7 | 4 | 44 | 22 | 92 | |
Start | 15 | 17 | 33 | 174 | 131 | 370 | |
Stub | 1 | 10 | 83 | 67 | 161 | ||
List | 1 | 2 | 5 | 11 | 11 | 30 | |
Category | 1 | 454 | 455 | ||||
Disambig | 5 | 5 | |||||
File | 1 | 64 | 65 | ||||
Portal | 27 | 27 | |||||
Project | 28 | 28 | |||||
Redirect | 3 | 5 | 322 | 330 | |||
Template | 2 | 71 | 73 | ||||
Other | 3 | 3 | |||||
Assessed | 39 | 31 | 53 | 355 | 974 | 236 | 1,688 |
Total | 39 | 31 | 53 | 355 | 974 | 236 | 1,688 |
WikiWork factors ( ?) | ω = 3,282 | Ω = 4.88 |