![]() | This template ( Template:English variant notice) was considered for deletion on 2013 September 7. The result of the discussion was "snow keep". |
![]() | The deprecation of this template was discussed at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). The result was oppose deprecation. 06:47, 29 August 2015 (UTC) |
There seems to be a need to populate some categories (e.g. Category:Pages with editnotice British English editnotice) in some cases. Perhaps this functionality could be added to this meta-template. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 18:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
British English should be removed due to the fact that there are sub-dialects that are part of British English therefore don't differ from or are not used in British English. An example is
Template talk:Scottish English which currently doesn't make sense. Regards,
Rob (
talk)
00:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Template:English_variant_notice/text has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I think the template's text should be changed to:
This article favors [[{{{variant}}}]] vocabulary, grammar and spelling if universal convention is absent. Some terms that are used in it differ from or are not used in British, American or other variants of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Because the current wording suggests that articles are written in specific dialects of English, however per MOS:ENGVAR, Wikipedia 'prefers no major national variety of the language over any other' and 'tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English'. Articles only favour variants' vocabulary, grammar and spelling if universal convention is absent, and they don't use any variant of English as such. Regards, Rob ( talk | contribs) 23:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
{{
edit template-protected}}
template.. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
13:33, 17 February 2014 (UTC)N-HH, all articles should be written using 'words that are common to all varieties of English'. MOS:ENGVAR does not explicitly exclude country-specific articles from this. Why on earth would we use terms that are only understood by Brits, if there is terms with the same meaning understood by both Brits and Americans? Just to fuck with people so they can't understand articles related to the UK? Rob ( talk | contribs) 18:44, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
How would we like this worded then? I don't think 'British' and 'American' should be stated on the meta-template, as it's not appropriate for many varieties.
This {{SUBJECTSPACE formatted}} is written in [[{{{variant}}}]], and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to...
{{SUBJECTSPACE formatted}} uses [[{{{variant}}}]] vocabulary, grammar and spelling; and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to...
Obviously, I prefer the latter. Rob ( talk | contribs) 12:38, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
{{SUBJECTSPACE formatted}} uses [[{{{variant}}}]] vocabulary, grammar and spelling; and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other national standards.
The British English templates are used about 5300 times, American English 2441 times, Canadian 1626, Australian 1137, South African 923, Indian 495, and the others much less. Why are these templates not used proportionately? This slant is especially prevalent with European and international topics. Dustin (talk) 21:49, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion on the deprecation of Template:English variant notice. Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RfC: Should Template:English variant notice be deprecated?.— Godsy( TALK CONT) 07:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
This RFC has been closed. It can be found here Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_126#RfC:_Should_Template:English_variant_notice_be_deprecated.3F. The result was consensus opposed deprecation. AlbinoFerret 06:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Template:English variant notice/text has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change /text to sandbox version (tested here). All the current english language templates as far as I know (e.g Template:South African English) use the custom text option {{{text}}}; this version adds parameters to allow standardization instead of that. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 08:49, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Also for some reason /text is template protected while Template:English variant notice/core and the main template itself is not. Seems unnecessary. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 09:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I've set up
Template:Commonwealth English and related templates (with |id=cwe
for this module). This is to A) account for all English dialects that are "{{
EngvarB}}
" but which do not have codified, formal written registers or their own style guides (i.e. are generally indistinguishable from British English in encyclopedic writing); B) forestall the creation of more pointless "Use Zimbabwean English" and "Use Belizean English" templates; and C) provide Commonwealth merge-and-redirect targets for some existing junk templates we do not actually need (because they fall under point A, above).
I haven't dug around in the code here, so I'm not sure how to integrate this new meta-ENGVAR into the module, and would rather leave that to its regular maintainers. If an image is desirable, I suppose File:Commonwealth and Anglosphere.svg will do well enough, at least in the interim. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
PS: It should support the |Oxford=
option, though no {{
Commonwealth English Oxford spelling}}
and {{
Commonwealth English Oxford spelling editnotice}}
templates exist; parameters should probably be sufficient as they are for various other "EngvarB" dialects. I'm not too sure about |IUPAC=
. I don't see any IUPAC-specific British English template, just an American one. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
19:37, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
|Oxford=
and |IUPAC=
parameters (using that parameter in this template, makes the text: "This page is written in Commonwealth English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise)"). I do not see that any particular integration of this into the module is necessary, though if it is, feel free to ping me since I wrote
Module:English variant notice
Galobtter (
pingó mió)
14:01, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
cwe
? I don't know the guts of these templates and modules very well. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
14:54, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
|id=cwe
does is set the "id" parameter in {{
editnotice}} to "cweeditnotice" (which was all that was done with it in the the template {{
English variant notice}} pre lua).
Galobtter (
pingó mió)
14:59, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
id
attribute for CSS. Wouldn't it make sense for all of these things to have no id
and instead of have a consistent class
? PS: I tried setting up
Module:English variant notice/sandbox to handle a |size=
parameter for the image, but that didn't work out. I know Lua about as well as I know ancient Akkadian. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
08:21, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
|size=
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
SMcCandlish (
talk •
contribs)
The final sentence "According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus" sounds distinctly odd in articles which have strong national ties, as there is not a WP:SNOWBALL's chance in hell of such broad consensus being reached.
As a preliminary proposal, perhaps a parameter |ties=South Africa
might change that to "This is because the subject has
strong national ties to South Africa." Or maybe just |ties=y
and the template knows the noun form of the country. (I thought it might be occasionally useful to specify a different location, e.g. Bermuda.) Or maybe just rephrase to not mention a location? Or just omit the final sentence entirely?
209.209.238.149 ( talk) 01:07, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Can I suggest the flag icon is removed from this template. Most of the the time there is no issue. However I would suggest a problem can arise when a variant is used on a page where the result of MOS:TIES does not match or is otherwise debateable. The planting of a flag on the talk page can be a matter that goes beyond which variant to use and can be viewed as provative. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark ( talk) 06:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Dear editors,
In Talk:Pakistan International Airlines Flight 8303 an editor wanted to know how users should follow WP:ENGVAR conventions for English-as-a-second language countries where the distinction between the formal, standardized Englishes of those countries and say British English may not be so much clear cut. As per WP:ENGVAR former British colonies should use the standardized formal Englishes of their respective countries, but it may be difficult to instruct people from other countries on how to follow this.
I wish to add for relevant countries and territories of the British Empire:
... "Do note that the formalised English used in (country) is similar to British English, so when in doubt follow British conventions unless/until other differences are encountered."
(I believe articles solely concerned with the European Union may use British English as current member states Cyprus, Ireland and Malta and former member state UK pretty much use British English.)
For Liberia and the Philippines: "Do note that the formalized English used in Liberia/the Philippines is similar to American English, so when in doubt follow American conventions unless/until other differences are encountered."
Samoa was under New Zealand rule for decades, so I believe New Zealand English would be the default for Samoa.
I have not studied Lua so I'm not sure how the template should be modified to allow for a "notes" section of this kind.
@ Martinevans123: @ Stepho-wrs: @ Johnuniq: @ RexxS: @ Ohc on the move:
Thanks, WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
1,00,000
Indian system) or 1,90
(European system) start appearing all over en.wp – because it causes readers to do a "double take" or go looking for explanations, and I would argue for their systematic removal on grounds of
WP:COMMONALITY. I have to an extent automated the removal of lakh and crore, and it seems not to be contentious. --
Ohconfucius (on the move) (
talk)
06:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
PS: On numbering questions: We should never, ever use non-English decimal numbering, e.g. "3,20" to mean "3.20". It is a non-English practice. We should never, ever use krore and other non-Western counting systems without also converting them to numbers understood by the majority of our readers, and we should really put the non-Western ones second. This is not IndiaPedia. There are no English-speaking people in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. who do not understand the Western counting system in addition to the native one; and non-native speakers of English in these places are apt to prefer their own-language Wikipedias anyway, except for topics those editions are missing. There is no case for just putting something like "3.2 krore" in an en.WP article and leaving it at that. The same general argument goes for Islamic and other calendar systems: put the standard Western date first, then provide a conversion to something else in articles in which such a conversion is topically relevant. As with the main point above, we can't force people to comply with style guidelines, so cleaning up after them in number and date matters is gnome work, not something to post huge banners about or harass people on talk pages over.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
01:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Convert all English variant notices to editnotices. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk
22:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This template ( Template:English variant notice) was considered for deletion on 2013 September 7. The result of the discussion was "snow keep". |
![]() | The deprecation of this template was discussed at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). The result was oppose deprecation. 06:47, 29 August 2015 (UTC) |
There seems to be a need to populate some categories (e.g. Category:Pages with editnotice British English editnotice) in some cases. Perhaps this functionality could be added to this meta-template. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 18:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
British English should be removed due to the fact that there are sub-dialects that are part of British English therefore don't differ from or are not used in British English. An example is
Template talk:Scottish English which currently doesn't make sense. Regards,
Rob (
talk)
00:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Template:English_variant_notice/text has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I think the template's text should be changed to:
This article favors [[{{{variant}}}]] vocabulary, grammar and spelling if universal convention is absent. Some terms that are used in it differ from or are not used in British, American or other variants of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Because the current wording suggests that articles are written in specific dialects of English, however per MOS:ENGVAR, Wikipedia 'prefers no major national variety of the language over any other' and 'tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English'. Articles only favour variants' vocabulary, grammar and spelling if universal convention is absent, and they don't use any variant of English as such. Regards, Rob ( talk | contribs) 23:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
{{
edit template-protected}}
template.. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
13:33, 17 February 2014 (UTC)N-HH, all articles should be written using 'words that are common to all varieties of English'. MOS:ENGVAR does not explicitly exclude country-specific articles from this. Why on earth would we use terms that are only understood by Brits, if there is terms with the same meaning understood by both Brits and Americans? Just to fuck with people so they can't understand articles related to the UK? Rob ( talk | contribs) 18:44, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
How would we like this worded then? I don't think 'British' and 'American' should be stated on the meta-template, as it's not appropriate for many varieties.
This {{SUBJECTSPACE formatted}} is written in [[{{{variant}}}]], and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to...
{{SUBJECTSPACE formatted}} uses [[{{{variant}}}]] vocabulary, grammar and spelling; and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to...
Obviously, I prefer the latter. Rob ( talk | contribs) 12:38, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
{{SUBJECTSPACE formatted}} uses [[{{{variant}}}]] vocabulary, grammar and spelling; and some terms used in it may be different or absent from other national standards.
The British English templates are used about 5300 times, American English 2441 times, Canadian 1626, Australian 1137, South African 923, Indian 495, and the others much less. Why are these templates not used proportionately? This slant is especially prevalent with European and international topics. Dustin (talk) 21:49, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion on the deprecation of Template:English variant notice. Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RfC: Should Template:English variant notice be deprecated?.— Godsy( TALK CONT) 07:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
This RFC has been closed. It can be found here Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_126#RfC:_Should_Template:English_variant_notice_be_deprecated.3F. The result was consensus opposed deprecation. AlbinoFerret 06:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Template:English variant notice/text has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change /text to sandbox version (tested here). All the current english language templates as far as I know (e.g Template:South African English) use the custom text option {{{text}}}; this version adds parameters to allow standardization instead of that. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 08:49, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Also for some reason /text is template protected while Template:English variant notice/core and the main template itself is not. Seems unnecessary. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 09:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I've set up
Template:Commonwealth English and related templates (with |id=cwe
for this module). This is to A) account for all English dialects that are "{{
EngvarB}}
" but which do not have codified, formal written registers or their own style guides (i.e. are generally indistinguishable from British English in encyclopedic writing); B) forestall the creation of more pointless "Use Zimbabwean English" and "Use Belizean English" templates; and C) provide Commonwealth merge-and-redirect targets for some existing junk templates we do not actually need (because they fall under point A, above).
I haven't dug around in the code here, so I'm not sure how to integrate this new meta-ENGVAR into the module, and would rather leave that to its regular maintainers. If an image is desirable, I suppose File:Commonwealth and Anglosphere.svg will do well enough, at least in the interim. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
PS: It should support the |Oxford=
option, though no {{
Commonwealth English Oxford spelling}}
and {{
Commonwealth English Oxford spelling editnotice}}
templates exist; parameters should probably be sufficient as they are for various other "EngvarB" dialects. I'm not too sure about |IUPAC=
. I don't see any IUPAC-specific British English template, just an American one. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
19:37, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
|Oxford=
and |IUPAC=
parameters (using that parameter in this template, makes the text: "This page is written in Commonwealth English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise)"). I do not see that any particular integration of this into the module is necessary, though if it is, feel free to ping me since I wrote
Module:English variant notice
Galobtter (
pingó mió)
14:01, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
cwe
? I don't know the guts of these templates and modules very well. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
14:54, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
|id=cwe
does is set the "id" parameter in {{
editnotice}} to "cweeditnotice" (which was all that was done with it in the the template {{
English variant notice}} pre lua).
Galobtter (
pingó mió)
14:59, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
id
attribute for CSS. Wouldn't it make sense for all of these things to have no id
and instead of have a consistent class
? PS: I tried setting up
Module:English variant notice/sandbox to handle a |size=
parameter for the image, but that didn't work out. I know Lua about as well as I know ancient Akkadian. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
08:21, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
|size=
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
SMcCandlish (
talk •
contribs)
The final sentence "According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus" sounds distinctly odd in articles which have strong national ties, as there is not a WP:SNOWBALL's chance in hell of such broad consensus being reached.
As a preliminary proposal, perhaps a parameter |ties=South Africa
might change that to "This is because the subject has
strong national ties to South Africa." Or maybe just |ties=y
and the template knows the noun form of the country. (I thought it might be occasionally useful to specify a different location, e.g. Bermuda.) Or maybe just rephrase to not mention a location? Or just omit the final sentence entirely?
209.209.238.149 ( talk) 01:07, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Can I suggest the flag icon is removed from this template. Most of the the time there is no issue. However I would suggest a problem can arise when a variant is used on a page where the result of MOS:TIES does not match or is otherwise debateable. The planting of a flag on the talk page can be a matter that goes beyond which variant to use and can be viewed as provative. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark ( talk) 06:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Dear editors,
In Talk:Pakistan International Airlines Flight 8303 an editor wanted to know how users should follow WP:ENGVAR conventions for English-as-a-second language countries where the distinction between the formal, standardized Englishes of those countries and say British English may not be so much clear cut. As per WP:ENGVAR former British colonies should use the standardized formal Englishes of their respective countries, but it may be difficult to instruct people from other countries on how to follow this.
I wish to add for relevant countries and territories of the British Empire:
... "Do note that the formalised English used in (country) is similar to British English, so when in doubt follow British conventions unless/until other differences are encountered."
(I believe articles solely concerned with the European Union may use British English as current member states Cyprus, Ireland and Malta and former member state UK pretty much use British English.)
For Liberia and the Philippines: "Do note that the formalized English used in Liberia/the Philippines is similar to American English, so when in doubt follow American conventions unless/until other differences are encountered."
Samoa was under New Zealand rule for decades, so I believe New Zealand English would be the default for Samoa.
I have not studied Lua so I'm not sure how the template should be modified to allow for a "notes" section of this kind.
@ Martinevans123: @ Stepho-wrs: @ Johnuniq: @ RexxS: @ Ohc on the move:
Thanks, WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
1,00,000
Indian system) or 1,90
(European system) start appearing all over en.wp – because it causes readers to do a "double take" or go looking for explanations, and I would argue for their systematic removal on grounds of
WP:COMMONALITY. I have to an extent automated the removal of lakh and crore, and it seems not to be contentious. --
Ohconfucius (on the move) (
talk)
06:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
PS: On numbering questions: We should never, ever use non-English decimal numbering, e.g. "3,20" to mean "3.20". It is a non-English practice. We should never, ever use krore and other non-Western counting systems without also converting them to numbers understood by the majority of our readers, and we should really put the non-Western ones second. This is not IndiaPedia. There are no English-speaking people in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. who do not understand the Western counting system in addition to the native one; and non-native speakers of English in these places are apt to prefer their own-language Wikipedias anyway, except for topics those editions are missing. There is no case for just putting something like "3.2 krore" in an en.WP article and leaving it at that. The same general argument goes for Islamic and other calendar systems: put the standard Western date first, then provide a conversion to something else in articles in which such a conversion is topically relevant. As with the main point above, we can't force people to comply with style guidelines, so cleaning up after them in number and date matters is gnome work, not something to post huge banners about or harass people on talk pages over.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
01:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Convert all English variant notices to editnotices. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk
22:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)