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Linguistics: Phonetics NA‑class | ||||||||||
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Just thought I'd ask, does no one else think the pronunciations as given are a bit too... I don't know, maybe traditional? They're certainly a lot more deviant from English than I had always been taught was acceptable. The velarisation and palatisation were things I was never taught as being required for correct pronunciation, and given that the majority of Irish speakers learn it as a second language, I would assume that the ommissions are more common. - EstoyAquí( t • c • e) 21:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Audio files would be very useful here. For those learner's or people interested in Irish who are unfamiliar or not fully familiar with IPA. - Dalta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.92.71.32 ( talk) 18:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
How easy would it be to cover Scottish Gaelic with this key? They are a good number of Sc. Gaelic transcriptions, but not enough for a Sc. Gaelic key to be a priority. kwami ( talk) 14:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Capital L and capital N are not IPA usage. -- Evertype· ✆ 14:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
'Preciate it if s.o. could add the IPA for Oíche Shamhna at Halloween around the world. — kwami ( talk) 21:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Another at Padraic, which looks like it might be an English approximation, though this is hardly unique. (Hopefully, everything linked here will eventually be ironed out.) kwami ( talk) 23:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I still think I might be useful to indicate the orthography somehow in this chart. WP:IPA for Polish, for example, does. We do this for non-Latin scripts, perhaps we should for nonintuitive (but regualr-ish) Latin scripts like Polish and Irish, too? I know I for one use them heavily when checking IPA. Still, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, as we have orthography-specific pages for many (most?) languages for a reason. And orthographies as irregular as English's or Danish's are beyond help on pages such as this. — ˈzɪzɨvə ( talk) 01:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
While we're modifying this page, I'm wondering if we shouldn't simplify the transcription. Two things that come to mind:
Fortis | Lenis | |
---|---|---|
Broad | /n̪ˠ l̪ˠ/ | /nˠ lˠ/ |
Slender | /n̠ʲ l̠ʲ/ | /nʲ lʲ/ |
Why isn't there an English approximation, as is done with, for example, the IPA-chart voor Dutch and Afrikaans? The way it is written now doesn't make it any clearer on hów a letter is pronounced, since the words that are there as an example are Irish words. :s -- Robster1983 ( talk) 20:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil llama ceart ar chor ar bith. -- Evertype· ✆ 00:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Again with this. Is llama really pronounced 'law-ma'? I always thought it was the same vowel as in 'hand'. And shouldn't song and cloth be the opposite way around above? As in, it's 'song', not 'sawng', and cloth is pronounced clawth, right? Have I been pronouncing everything wrong forever? 109.76.241.208 ( talk) 22:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC) What I really mean to say, is that a fada is pronounced like the vowel in 'saw', not the vowel in 'off'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.241.208 ( talk) 22:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Can we have a clarification on the english equivalent given as "noon, new". The two words in standard english are nothing like each other, so unless "new" is the American "noo" pronunciation the examples are confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 10:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I've templated all unformatted IPA I could find in the March 12 dump, with just 9 articles to go. 3 of those are Gaelic: Danu (Irish goddess) (lede), Hurling (2nd paragraph), Micheal O'Siadhail (lede). Could s.o. here template them with IPA-ga, IPA-sga, or IPA-en, as appropriate, and fix up the transcription if needed? — kwami ( talk) 10:39, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Since this transcription is intended to be phonetic and to be used by non-Irish speakers, wouldn't it be a good idea to add ɰ between a broad consonant and a slender vowel, j between a slender consonant and a broad vowel, ə̯ between a slender vowel and a broad consonant, and i̯ between a broad consonant and a slender vowel? A. di M. ( talk) 14:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Is this transcription intended to be relatively narrow? It looks to me that it just juxtaposes transcriptions for the individual phonemes, with no account of allophony at all. (And the symbols used for some of the phonemes are not even the best reasonably-simple approximations to their most typical realization, e.g. I'd use ɑː rather than aː.) I'd consider the use of brackets in this situation to be somewhat misleading, and replace them with slashes (assuming that a narrower transcription would be too complicated to be practical). -- A. di M. ( talk) 17:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
What is used for the word "an" or the sound itself, for example "an geata". Sheodred 11:42, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
The superscript gamma ‹ˠ› is so small, especially in the footnotes, that it's nearly impossible to distinguish from a capital "Y". I've added a clarification to the footnote. -- Thnidu ( talk) 04:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
I was looking for some indications on how the vowels in the name 'Saoirse' are pronounced. The article on the name says the 'english re-spelling' would be "SEER-shə", but I see no corresponding sound for it in the vowels list. Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists ( talk • contribs) 17:29, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Are the vowels 'a' in solas and 'i' in milis The same. They are not the same sound, or am I missing something?
ə solas, milis sofa
Why not Ulster-Connaught-Munster-"Standard" rather than Ulster-Munster-Connaught-"Standard" as it is right now? Catrìona ( talk) 18:31, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
I have to question whether putting ˠ after nearly nearly consonant in this chart is helpful in any way. It makes the pronunciation keys difficult to read for no clear benefit. Someone unfamiliar with the language is not likely to be able to picture the difference between gˠ and g in their mind's ear, and speakers of the language already know how consonants sound in it. We're being much more loose (and helpful to more readers, I would say) in the IPA for English page. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
[ This is continued from this topic after it was suggested to be moved here.
Addendum: I incorrectly conflated narrow/broad transcription and phonemic/phonetic transcription in the original message, I have corrected my mistake here. ]
This page does not specify whether to use slashes or square brackets for the transcription of Irish on this site. However, Template:IPA-ga uses square brackets, and Template:IPAc-ga uses them by default. The problem is that the transcription style set out in this help page is clearly phonemic, and the templates should reflect this. I propose that this page is updated, and the templates are changed to use slashes by default. Alpha2 5232 ( talk) 16:19, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia Help NA‑class | |||||||
|
Linguistics: Phonetics NA‑class | ||||||||||
|
Just thought I'd ask, does no one else think the pronunciations as given are a bit too... I don't know, maybe traditional? They're certainly a lot more deviant from English than I had always been taught was acceptable. The velarisation and palatisation were things I was never taught as being required for correct pronunciation, and given that the majority of Irish speakers learn it as a second language, I would assume that the ommissions are more common. - EstoyAquí( t • c • e) 21:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Audio files would be very useful here. For those learner's or people interested in Irish who are unfamiliar or not fully familiar with IPA. - Dalta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.92.71.32 ( talk) 18:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
How easy would it be to cover Scottish Gaelic with this key? They are a good number of Sc. Gaelic transcriptions, but not enough for a Sc. Gaelic key to be a priority. kwami ( talk) 14:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Capital L and capital N are not IPA usage. -- Evertype· ✆ 14:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
'Preciate it if s.o. could add the IPA for Oíche Shamhna at Halloween around the world. — kwami ( talk) 21:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Another at Padraic, which looks like it might be an English approximation, though this is hardly unique. (Hopefully, everything linked here will eventually be ironed out.) kwami ( talk) 23:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I still think I might be useful to indicate the orthography somehow in this chart. WP:IPA for Polish, for example, does. We do this for non-Latin scripts, perhaps we should for nonintuitive (but regualr-ish) Latin scripts like Polish and Irish, too? I know I for one use them heavily when checking IPA. Still, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, as we have orthography-specific pages for many (most?) languages for a reason. And orthographies as irregular as English's or Danish's are beyond help on pages such as this. — ˈzɪzɨvə ( talk) 01:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
While we're modifying this page, I'm wondering if we shouldn't simplify the transcription. Two things that come to mind:
Fortis | Lenis | |
---|---|---|
Broad | /n̪ˠ l̪ˠ/ | /nˠ lˠ/ |
Slender | /n̠ʲ l̠ʲ/ | /nʲ lʲ/ |
Why isn't there an English approximation, as is done with, for example, the IPA-chart voor Dutch and Afrikaans? The way it is written now doesn't make it any clearer on hów a letter is pronounced, since the words that are there as an example are Irish words. :s -- Robster1983 ( talk) 20:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil llama ceart ar chor ar bith. -- Evertype· ✆ 00:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Again with this. Is llama really pronounced 'law-ma'? I always thought it was the same vowel as in 'hand'. And shouldn't song and cloth be the opposite way around above? As in, it's 'song', not 'sawng', and cloth is pronounced clawth, right? Have I been pronouncing everything wrong forever? 109.76.241.208 ( talk) 22:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC) What I really mean to say, is that a fada is pronounced like the vowel in 'saw', not the vowel in 'off'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.241.208 ( talk) 22:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Can we have a clarification on the english equivalent given as "noon, new". The two words in standard english are nothing like each other, so unless "new" is the American "noo" pronunciation the examples are confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 10:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I've templated all unformatted IPA I could find in the March 12 dump, with just 9 articles to go. 3 of those are Gaelic: Danu (Irish goddess) (lede), Hurling (2nd paragraph), Micheal O'Siadhail (lede). Could s.o. here template them with IPA-ga, IPA-sga, or IPA-en, as appropriate, and fix up the transcription if needed? — kwami ( talk) 10:39, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Since this transcription is intended to be phonetic and to be used by non-Irish speakers, wouldn't it be a good idea to add ɰ between a broad consonant and a slender vowel, j between a slender consonant and a broad vowel, ə̯ between a slender vowel and a broad consonant, and i̯ between a broad consonant and a slender vowel? A. di M. ( talk) 14:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Is this transcription intended to be relatively narrow? It looks to me that it just juxtaposes transcriptions for the individual phonemes, with no account of allophony at all. (And the symbols used for some of the phonemes are not even the best reasonably-simple approximations to their most typical realization, e.g. I'd use ɑː rather than aː.) I'd consider the use of brackets in this situation to be somewhat misleading, and replace them with slashes (assuming that a narrower transcription would be too complicated to be practical). -- A. di M. ( talk) 17:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
What is used for the word "an" or the sound itself, for example "an geata". Sheodred 11:42, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
The superscript gamma ‹ˠ› is so small, especially in the footnotes, that it's nearly impossible to distinguish from a capital "Y". I've added a clarification to the footnote. -- Thnidu ( talk) 04:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
I was looking for some indications on how the vowels in the name 'Saoirse' are pronounced. The article on the name says the 'english re-spelling' would be "SEER-shə", but I see no corresponding sound for it in the vowels list. Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists ( talk • contribs) 17:29, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Are the vowels 'a' in solas and 'i' in milis The same. They are not the same sound, or am I missing something?
ə solas, milis sofa
Why not Ulster-Connaught-Munster-"Standard" rather than Ulster-Munster-Connaught-"Standard" as it is right now? Catrìona ( talk) 18:31, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
I have to question whether putting ˠ after nearly nearly consonant in this chart is helpful in any way. It makes the pronunciation keys difficult to read for no clear benefit. Someone unfamiliar with the language is not likely to be able to picture the difference between gˠ and g in their mind's ear, and speakers of the language already know how consonants sound in it. We're being much more loose (and helpful to more readers, I would say) in the IPA for English page. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
[ This is continued from this topic after it was suggested to be moved here.
Addendum: I incorrectly conflated narrow/broad transcription and phonemic/phonetic transcription in the original message, I have corrected my mistake here. ]
This page does not specify whether to use slashes or square brackets for the transcription of Irish on this site. However, Template:IPA-ga uses square brackets, and Template:IPAc-ga uses them by default. The problem is that the transcription style set out in this help page is clearly phonemic, and the templates should reflect this. I propose that this page is updated, and the templates are changed to use slashes by default. Alpha2 5232 ( talk) 16:19, 31 May 2023 (UTC)