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"oi" is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 ( talk) 11:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
The page claims:
ʁ regarder, nôtre[3] Guttural R, Scottish English loch, but voiced
But the ch sound in loch sounds nothing like a R of any kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.62.77 ( talk) 12:23, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi.
I don't think /t͡ʃ/ in French is a "phonotactic anomaly" but rather a full-fledged phoneme since:
1) it appears in NO native French words allophonically (except for some dialects such as Acadian, where it is an allophone of /k/, but not in Standard (European) French), only in more recent loanwords;
2) native speakers intuitively feel that it's a separate phoneme so they use a special trigraph "tch" to write it;
3) if it were just an "anomaly" (whatever that's supposed to mean), it would arise NATURALLY in every single environment in which there were /t/ and /ʃ/ one after the other, which does not happen at all from what I know;
4) if it's not a phoneme, why did you not remove /ŋ/ as well? The status of this sound as an independent phoneme is even more questionable than that of /t͡ʃ/, let's be honest.
All in all, I'd say /t͡ʃ/ is a marginal phoneme borrowed from recent loanwords, especially from English, rather than merely an allophone of /t/. If you're still not convinced, I've got another argument: /t/, /ʃ/, and /t͡ʃ/ form minimal pairs, e.g. "thèque", "chèque", and "tchèque", in which only the first consonant is distinctive. That's enough to consider the latter an independent phoneme, albeit with a limited distribution. 83.9.190.72 ( talk) 06:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
It seems like the nasalized o example as in "Australian drawn" is not a good choice. How many people know how an Australian says "drawn"? Math-ghamhainn ( talk) 22:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I find the sound in book more similar to the French o than story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French
- lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap
- the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/)
- monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/
Couiros22 (
talk) 18:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
I find the sound in book more similar to the French o
story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French
lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap
the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/)
monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/
In Mainland French, while /ə/ is phonologically distinct, its phonetic quality tends to coincide with either /ø/ or /œ/.
story and sort are both pronounced /ɔ/
standard British English ... /a/
ɛɪ not eɪ
so maybe we should have separate examples for /ø/ & /œ/
/grændad/ ... /ɛɪ/ not /eɪ/ ... [ə] to [ø]
the French o phoneme's closest equivalent in English is [ʊ]
... also a realization of /u/ in Quebecois ... [ʊ] is centralized ...)
words like trap use the ordinary æ and so aren't a good example of equivalent
TRAP is the keyword for /æ/ ... this isn't terribly important IMHO.)
'mace' is majoritarily pronounced using [ɛ] rather than [e]
(trap) is /æ/, (grandad) is /a/
/a/ isn't a phoneme in English ... Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.
/a/ isn't a phoneme in English ...
Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO...
Does not apply to rhotic dialects.
Couiros22, please indent your comments correctly, you have been advised to do this earlier in this discussion, failing to do it is just rude.
BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English. I suspect you really mean RP or Received Pronunciation, remember there is a great variety of spoken dialects in Great Britain. Please use accurate terminology unless you wish to be reverted out of hand for arrant nonsense. - Nick Thorne talk 13:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The first consonants in wet and one are the same sound. The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel, /wʌ/ (another way to look at it is that /w/ is unwritten).
[ ɥ is a consonant. huit and Puy are [ɥi] and [pɥi], respectively, where [i] is the syllable nucleus. Huey is /ˈhjuːi/, which has two vowels in succession, and it is /uː/ that is more prominent. The insertion of Huey was a poor choice to begin with, so I suggest we restore the previous approximation, "between wet and yet", which is a straightforward description of what [ɥ] is—a labial–palatal approximant.
All vowels in trap and grandad are the same. Just look up the words in the OED, which uses ⟨a⟩ for BrE and ⟨æ⟩ for AmE. Our dialect-neutral IPA key for English represents it as /æ/, following the predominant notation before the 1990s. Oxford University Press has switched to ⟨a⟩ to represent the same phoneme in BrE in dictionaries aimed at native speakers, but this is just that—a different representation. It means the same thing as /æ/—just look up the word in a dictionary from any other publisher that uses IPA, or even OUP's dictionary not aimed at native speakers, such as the Advanced Learner's Dictionary.
The first vowel in hammock is the same as the ones in trap and grandad. This change makes no sense. As the accompanying footnote explains, [ ɑ in this key specifically represents the quality when not merged with /a/, unlike in contemporary Parisian French, so using anything other than /ɑː/ (which is the vowel in bra) would be inexplicable.
insipid for [ e is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing so we'd better stick to /eɪ/, which is monophthongal in some varieties of English (e.g. Scottish).
bird and burn have the same vowel. Most varieties of English don't have front rounded vowels, so English has only /ɜːr/ to approximate [ ø or [ œ. Other keys note the suboptimal nature by prefacing it with "somewhat like". Denoting the difference between the two like "... but more open/ close" is an option, but this is likely pointless because those who understand such terminology wouldn't need the approximations to begin with.
story is a far better approximation to [o] than book. The quality of the vowel in southern Britain has diverged from the conventional ⟨ɔ⟩ towards [ o, see e.g. [1]. /ʊ/, the vowel in book, is not only higher but centered. /ɔːr/ (but without highlighting the /r/) also works for American accents, unlike /oʊ/ or /ɔː/ not followed by /r/, because it's not diphthongal and is little affected by the cot–caught merger.
off and cover don't have the same vowel. off is already close (most accents, with or without the lot–cloth split or cot–caught merger, have it around [ ɔ), and listing two is pointless and confusing.
Overall, your edits and comments show little understanding of the phonetics and phonology of English and French and the pronunciation of English words. Please do not edit the key without establishing consensus on the talk page any further. Nardog ( talk) 15:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English.
The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel
"between wet and yet"
insipid for [ e is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing
story is a far better approximation to [o] than book.
Wikipedia Help NA‑class | |||||||
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Linguistics: Phonetics NA‑class | ||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
"oi" is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 ( talk) 11:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
The page claims:
ʁ regarder, nôtre[3] Guttural R, Scottish English loch, but voiced
But the ch sound in loch sounds nothing like a R of any kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.62.77 ( talk) 12:23, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi.
I don't think /t͡ʃ/ in French is a "phonotactic anomaly" but rather a full-fledged phoneme since:
1) it appears in NO native French words allophonically (except for some dialects such as Acadian, where it is an allophone of /k/, but not in Standard (European) French), only in more recent loanwords;
2) native speakers intuitively feel that it's a separate phoneme so they use a special trigraph "tch" to write it;
3) if it were just an "anomaly" (whatever that's supposed to mean), it would arise NATURALLY in every single environment in which there were /t/ and /ʃ/ one after the other, which does not happen at all from what I know;
4) if it's not a phoneme, why did you not remove /ŋ/ as well? The status of this sound as an independent phoneme is even more questionable than that of /t͡ʃ/, let's be honest.
All in all, I'd say /t͡ʃ/ is a marginal phoneme borrowed from recent loanwords, especially from English, rather than merely an allophone of /t/. If you're still not convinced, I've got another argument: /t/, /ʃ/, and /t͡ʃ/ form minimal pairs, e.g. "thèque", "chèque", and "tchèque", in which only the first consonant is distinctive. That's enough to consider the latter an independent phoneme, albeit with a limited distribution. 83.9.190.72 ( talk) 06:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
It seems like the nasalized o example as in "Australian drawn" is not a good choice. How many people know how an Australian says "drawn"? Math-ghamhainn ( talk) 22:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I find the sound in book more similar to the French o than story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French
- lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap
- the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/)
- monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/
Couiros22 (
talk) 18:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
I find the sound in book more similar to the French o
story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French
lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap
the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/)
monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/
In Mainland French, while /ə/ is phonologically distinct, its phonetic quality tends to coincide with either /ø/ or /œ/.
story and sort are both pronounced /ɔ/
standard British English ... /a/
ɛɪ not eɪ
so maybe we should have separate examples for /ø/ & /œ/
/grændad/ ... /ɛɪ/ not /eɪ/ ... [ə] to [ø]
the French o phoneme's closest equivalent in English is [ʊ]
... also a realization of /u/ in Quebecois ... [ʊ] is centralized ...)
words like trap use the ordinary æ and so aren't a good example of equivalent
TRAP is the keyword for /æ/ ... this isn't terribly important IMHO.)
'mace' is majoritarily pronounced using [ɛ] rather than [e]
(trap) is /æ/, (grandad) is /a/
/a/ isn't a phoneme in English ... Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.
/a/ isn't a phoneme in English ...
Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO...
Does not apply to rhotic dialects.
Couiros22, please indent your comments correctly, you have been advised to do this earlier in this discussion, failing to do it is just rude.
BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English. I suspect you really mean RP or Received Pronunciation, remember there is a great variety of spoken dialects in Great Britain. Please use accurate terminology unless you wish to be reverted out of hand for arrant nonsense. - Nick Thorne talk 13:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The first consonants in wet and one are the same sound. The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel, /wʌ/ (another way to look at it is that /w/ is unwritten).
[ ɥ is a consonant. huit and Puy are [ɥi] and [pɥi], respectively, where [i] is the syllable nucleus. Huey is /ˈhjuːi/, which has two vowels in succession, and it is /uː/ that is more prominent. The insertion of Huey was a poor choice to begin with, so I suggest we restore the previous approximation, "between wet and yet", which is a straightforward description of what [ɥ] is—a labial–palatal approximant.
All vowels in trap and grandad are the same. Just look up the words in the OED, which uses ⟨a⟩ for BrE and ⟨æ⟩ for AmE. Our dialect-neutral IPA key for English represents it as /æ/, following the predominant notation before the 1990s. Oxford University Press has switched to ⟨a⟩ to represent the same phoneme in BrE in dictionaries aimed at native speakers, but this is just that—a different representation. It means the same thing as /æ/—just look up the word in a dictionary from any other publisher that uses IPA, or even OUP's dictionary not aimed at native speakers, such as the Advanced Learner's Dictionary.
The first vowel in hammock is the same as the ones in trap and grandad. This change makes no sense. As the accompanying footnote explains, [ ɑ in this key specifically represents the quality when not merged with /a/, unlike in contemporary Parisian French, so using anything other than /ɑː/ (which is the vowel in bra) would be inexplicable.
insipid for [ e is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing so we'd better stick to /eɪ/, which is monophthongal in some varieties of English (e.g. Scottish).
bird and burn have the same vowel. Most varieties of English don't have front rounded vowels, so English has only /ɜːr/ to approximate [ ø or [ œ. Other keys note the suboptimal nature by prefacing it with "somewhat like". Denoting the difference between the two like "... but more open/ close" is an option, but this is likely pointless because those who understand such terminology wouldn't need the approximations to begin with.
story is a far better approximation to [o] than book. The quality of the vowel in southern Britain has diverged from the conventional ⟨ɔ⟩ towards [ o, see e.g. [1]. /ʊ/, the vowel in book, is not only higher but centered. /ɔːr/ (but without highlighting the /r/) also works for American accents, unlike /oʊ/ or /ɔː/ not followed by /r/, because it's not diphthongal and is little affected by the cot–caught merger.
off and cover don't have the same vowel. off is already close (most accents, with or without the lot–cloth split or cot–caught merger, have it around [ ɔ), and listing two is pointless and confusing.
Overall, your edits and comments show little understanding of the phonetics and phonology of English and French and the pronunciation of English words. Please do not edit the key without establishing consensus on the talk page any further. Nardog ( talk) 15:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English.
The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel
"between wet and yet"
insipid for [ e is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing
story is a far better approximation to [o] than book.