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There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I've just begun fixing that article, and I've encountered a massive number of transcriptions with incorrect vowel length. Could someone go and recheck them? I'm sure that I missed some. Also, I can see that there are some (presumably) non-standard notations of consonant length, e.g. [ˈsvauŋːkʏr] instead of [ˈsvauŋkʏr]. That should also be fixed.
Morgunblaðið also needs a transcription check. Isn't it [ˈmɔrkʏnˌplaːðɪð], with a long [aː]? Mr KEBAB ( talk) 16:58, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
The Icelandic phonology article was already using [hp ht hc tk] for these sequences before I started any serious editing of it. But Help:IPA/Icelandic and most IPA in articles (including what I've added just to fit existing convention) have been using [ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk] instead. I think it may be a better idea to use [hp ht hc tk] in all cases, and to update Help:IPA/Icelandic and article pronunciations to reflect this notation. Why?
- Gilgamesh ( talk) 16:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm getting the distinct preliminary impression that this proposal may be by far the least controversial of my proposals here. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 21:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I already posted this earlier at Talk:Icelandic phonology#Problematic_IPA_for_diphthongs,_especially_long_diphthongs, but realized it's at least as relevant here as it is there. Basically, the existing problem is the superficially ambiguous appearance of long diphthongs [aiː auː eiː œiː ouː]. Pronunciation guides for words in other unfamiliar languages help people who may have generic knowledge of IPA, this kind of notation can throw off the reader, as a gemination symbol ⟨ː⟩ tends to imply that the immediately preceding phonetic unit (and not more than one before it) is geminated, so a reader might look at [aiː auː eiː œiː ouː] and think it implies [a.iː a.uː e.iː œ.iː o.uː]. An alternative transcription, [aːi aːu eːi œːi oːu], isn't really any better because then the reader might think the following vowel symbol represents a separate phonetic unit and that this implies [aː.i aː.u eː.i œː.i oː.u]. Another alternative, [aːi̯ aːu̯ eːi̯ œːi̯ oːu̯], is problematic in that it presumes the geminated component falls entirely on the onset of the diphthong, when the phonology articles and the PDF references in general seem to make no such specific assumption—just that the diphthong as a unit is longer; additionally, the use of [i̯] is problematic in that someone with generic knowledge of IPA and diacritics might assume that those sequences are equivalent to [aːj aːw eːj œːj oːw], as IPA by default associated certain cardinal approximants as being equivalent to certain asyllabic vowels [j=i̯ ɥ=y̯ ɰ=ɯ̯ w=u̯], when such an assumption also cannot necessarily be made in regards to [j] in Icelandic, which means even the short versions [ai̯ au̯ ei̯ œi̯ ou̯] have the same problem. However, using a tie as in [a͡i a͡u e͡i œ͡i o͡u] makes it crystal clear that each of these pairings of vowels are one phonetic unit, so that the long diphthongs [a͡iː a͡uː e͡iː œ͡iː o͡uː] are immediately clearer at a glance. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 10:15, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn. No fundamental agreement in favor of using tie bars can be reached. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 05:59, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Nardog: @ Sol505000: I made a new proposal further down, replacing this one. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 10:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
The use of mid-open vowel symbols [ɛ ɔ] for monophthongs and mid-close symbols [e o] for the onset of diphthongs [ei ou] has no basis in fact, as shown in Flego-Berkson (2020) p8, where indeed it's entirely common for the onset height of diphthongs to be more open [ɛ͡i ɔ͡u] than for the genuinely mid short monophthongs [e̞ o̞], and for long monophthongs to actually be opening diphthongs [e͡ɛː o͡ɔː] (or [ɪ͡ɛː ʊ͡ɔː]), all within the realm of free variation in a language not known for having major concurrent differences in dialect. This IPA guide already uses a common onset symbol [œ] for the vowels with mid central rounded onsets [œ œi]. (I have a separate proposal for the central vowel symbols, but I won't focus on that here.) So why not just the generic mid front unrounded symbol [e] for all front unrounded mid onsets [e eː e͡i e͡iː], and the generic mid back rounded symbol [o] for all back rounded onsets [o oː o͡u o͡uː]? - Gilgamesh ( talk) 10:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn and reorganized. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 20:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
As noted in both Flego-Berkson (2020) and in Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020), the onsets of the vowels ö au u are not front rounded [œ ʏ], but actually central rounded vowels, with Eiríkur in particular describing [œ] as having a position closer to that of a true schwa [ə]. Eiríkur also notes that the symbols [œ ʏ] are a matter of tradition, which is why he uses them. However, it's understood that front vowels [ai ɛ ei ɪ i] and the consonant [j] immediately after velar consonants [k kʰ ɣ] trigger those consonants becoming palatal [c cʰ j], but that the "front rounded" vowels [œ œi ʏ] do not trigger this change, with at least one other user in Talk:Icelandic phonology highlighting this confusion. But since these are actually central vowels and not front vowels at all, then using actual central vowel symbols might make this clearer at a glance.
In harmony with my other proposal using common mid vowel symbols for vowels with mid vowel onsets, the most obvious cardinal symbol to replace [œ] would be [ɵ], as it was historically adopted as the symbol for a rounded schwa. If my proposal for common mid vowel symbols is rejected, then it can also be noted that since 1993 there are now two separate cardinal symbols for rounded central vowels: [ɵ] for close-mid, and [ɞ] for open-mid, in harmony with other close-mid symbols [e o] and open-mid symbols [ɛ ɔ]. I wouldn't actually recommend going with separate [ɵ ɞ] for the same reason my mid-vowel symbol proposal exists: It's an artificial distinction without basis in fact.
The matter of IPA for the near-close rounded central vowel (represented orthographically by u and currently indicated with the more frontish symbol [ʏ]) is a little more complicated because there is currently no canonically-adopted IPA symbol for that specific vowel position. All possible symbols would require the use of diacritics [ʏ̈ ʉ̞ ʊ̈ ɵ̝]. However, the unmarked symbol [ʉ] seems to harmonize best with the unmarked symbol [ɵ]. There is an unofficial phonetic symbol [ᵿ] traditionally used in English phonological discussion and by the Oxford English Dictionary, and it has a canonical encoding in Unicode, but it has not been adopted by the IPA, so it would seem irresponsible to suggest its use here.
With the symbols I've suggested, [œ ʏ] could be replaced with [ɵ ʉ] respectively.
The monophthong a (currently indicated [a]) is also a central (unrounded) vowel, equivalent to [ɐ̞] or [ä]. A similar confusion also exists where the diphthong [ai] usually palatalizes a preceding velar consonant whereas the monophthong [a] does not, but I may address that in a separate proposal. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 11:26, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn and reorganized. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 20:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I previously proposed and withdrew a different proposal involving tie bars, but it became clear that no agreement could be reached in favor of using tie bars on diphthongs. But the issue of clarity of existing ⟨VVː⟩ notation (particularly how my mind always speedbumps when I read it) compels me to still suggest some form of clarification. I also previously suggested that we can't assume one component of a diphthong has more emphasis than the other, and I still can't see how we can assume they do. But lacking a better option for diphthong clarity, I propose the notation [ai̯] for short diphthongs and [aːi̯] for long monophthongs. I do not favor this option (the tie bars still looked clearest to me), but this is still clearer than bare [aiː] notation. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 06:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
It seems the otherwise unmarked ⟨VVː⟩ diphthong notation also appears to be conventional for long diphthongs in Faroese IPA, while Old English IPA uses ⟨VːV̯⟩ for its long diphthongs. Of course, the distinction is that both Icelandic and Faroese are living languages, while Old English is an ancient language whose phonological representation is largely academic. I'm honestly not entirely sure which option is the wisest course.
But it also seems, overall, that if the tie bar is excluded, then IPA seems hobbled in its ability to elegantly represent smoothly-transitioning diphthongs. I had considered the tie bar the most logical option not just for Icelandic diphthongs but most for diphthongs in most languages because (1) I'd already thought it was accepted usage through all the examples I'd already seen (example osmosis) and before recently I'd never heard it suggested otherwise, and (2) There seemed to be an intuitively straightforward analogy between tied diphthongs and tied affricates, at least as a hindsight justification for usage I had already long occasionally seen in practice. It is true that some uses of the tie bar imply dual articulation for other languages, like [k͡p]. But the tie bar in affricate notation, like [t͡ʃ], is not strictly a simultaneous articulation of the symbols, but a unitary sequence of one sound followed by the other in such a way that they can't be mistaken as belonging to separate syllables. After all, if you see [t͡ʃ], you don't read it the same as if it were [ʃ͡t], because it's not, strictly speaking, a simultaneous articulation of two different sounds in different parts of the mouth, but [t] seamlessly followed by [ʃ]. When an affricate is geminated, the notation I've seen for Faroese appears to be [t͡ʃː] (though it also seems worth mentioning that a similar sound can be represented in a language like Italian as [ttʃ]). Likewise, since two vowels in general cannot be genuinely dually articulated because it involves differences in the shape of the mouth overall, it logically followed that notation like [a͡i] can only reasonably refer to diphthongs. After all (and this example is not particular to any language), why use [ɛ͡e] to bizarrely notate a monophthong equidistant between [ɛ] and [e], when you could just use [ɛ̝] or [e̞]? A tie bar for diphthongs was a principle that never seemed to require any special logic leap, but rather seemed like a natural inference of IPA's allowances. I have attempted to address @ Nardog:'s reservations about tied diphthongs, and I don't necessarily expect I can persuade him personally on this matter, but it still seems difficult for me to endorse the contradictory logic that a tie bar can be used for [k͡p] as a simultaneous articulation on one hand and for [t͡ʃ] as a smooth unitarily-articulated consonant sequence (an affricate) on the other hand and yet not also for [a͡i] as a smooth unitarily-articulated vowel sequence (a diphthong). I still cannot prove that tied diphthongs are officially approved IPA use, but short of a specific official reference discouraging them, and considering that tied diphthongs have already occasionally been in use since before my time, it never seemed necessary to require approval for what appeared to be a simple logical inference. To be confused by such a thing would be like...someone being in any way confused when someone refers to an audibly lengthened vowel as "geminated," when in truth that is exactly what happens when any sound (whether it be a consonant or vowel) is articulated for an audibly longer-than-normal duration. Consensus questions like these need not necessarily be a matter of disagreement according to individual taste in IPA notation, but a matter of what a hypothetical third party's conventional logical process is likely to infer from a notation, and whether a notation can be considered graphically clearer than its alternatives. And, with all due respect, I believe this is an important concern that deserves to be considered in full and not treated with a "tl;dr" and reflexive dismissal. (I also have an autism spectrum-related communications quirk, and as such, succinctness is not necessarily my greatest strength.) - Gilgamesh ( talk) 07:39, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 20:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I may have made a mistake in making so many individual proposals and treating them like they could be independently discussed. But the truth is, all my proposals are linked. So here is one unified proposal with a pithier list:
Examples:
Now, my more in-depth rationales. These details are considerably less pithy.
Rationale for ⟨au⟩ [œi] → [ɵ͡i], ⟨u⟩ [ʏ] → [ʉ] and ⟨ö⟩ [œ] → [ɵ]:
Rationale for ⟨e⟩ [ɛ] → [e], ⟨o⟩ [ɔ] → [o] and ⟨ö⟩ [œ] → [ɵ]:
Rationale for ⟨á⟩ [au] → [a͡u], ⟨au⟩ [œi] → [ɵ͡i], ⟨ei⟩, ⟨ey⟩ [ei] → [e͡i], ⟨ó⟩ [ou] → [o͡u] and ⟨æ⟩ [ai] → [a͡i]:
Special mention for ⟨a⟩ [a], ⟨á⟩ [a͡u] and ⟨æ⟩ [a͡i]:
Special mention for geminated consonants:
This all forms the basis of my combined repackaged proposal, with both pithy and detailed segments. Any part of it can be discussed, with suggestions for modification, etc. I just really want to do this by an organized and engaged consensus process if at all possible. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 06:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
In this article https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282778942_Phonetic_Transcription_Guideline_Icelandic "au" is represented as [œy] which also corresponds to my understanding of the IPA and the Icelandic language. Hugstar ( talk) 15:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
The page currently lists 'boot' for 'U', and 'food' for 'Ú', but "boot" and "food" are both the same sound, a close back rounded vowel, at least in the English I know. 'Ú' is indeed pronounced like "food" (and "boot"), but "U" is pronounced like the I in "pig", but said with rounded lips like 'Ö'. Example here - "Kaffið er þunnt".
'U' is only pronounced like "boot" when it comes before 'NG' or 'NK' - see here. -- Rei ( talk) 12:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
IPA/Icelandic page. |
|
This help page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I've just begun fixing that article, and I've encountered a massive number of transcriptions with incorrect vowel length. Could someone go and recheck them? I'm sure that I missed some. Also, I can see that there are some (presumably) non-standard notations of consonant length, e.g. [ˈsvauŋːkʏr] instead of [ˈsvauŋkʏr]. That should also be fixed.
Morgunblaðið also needs a transcription check. Isn't it [ˈmɔrkʏnˌplaːðɪð], with a long [aː]? Mr KEBAB ( talk) 16:58, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
The Icelandic phonology article was already using [hp ht hc tk] for these sequences before I started any serious editing of it. But Help:IPA/Icelandic and most IPA in articles (including what I've added just to fit existing convention) have been using [ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk] instead. I think it may be a better idea to use [hp ht hc tk] in all cases, and to update Help:IPA/Icelandic and article pronunciations to reflect this notation. Why?
- Gilgamesh ( talk) 16:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm getting the distinct preliminary impression that this proposal may be by far the least controversial of my proposals here. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 21:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I already posted this earlier at Talk:Icelandic phonology#Problematic_IPA_for_diphthongs,_especially_long_diphthongs, but realized it's at least as relevant here as it is there. Basically, the existing problem is the superficially ambiguous appearance of long diphthongs [aiː auː eiː œiː ouː]. Pronunciation guides for words in other unfamiliar languages help people who may have generic knowledge of IPA, this kind of notation can throw off the reader, as a gemination symbol ⟨ː⟩ tends to imply that the immediately preceding phonetic unit (and not more than one before it) is geminated, so a reader might look at [aiː auː eiː œiː ouː] and think it implies [a.iː a.uː e.iː œ.iː o.uː]. An alternative transcription, [aːi aːu eːi œːi oːu], isn't really any better because then the reader might think the following vowel symbol represents a separate phonetic unit and that this implies [aː.i aː.u eː.i œː.i oː.u]. Another alternative, [aːi̯ aːu̯ eːi̯ œːi̯ oːu̯], is problematic in that it presumes the geminated component falls entirely on the onset of the diphthong, when the phonology articles and the PDF references in general seem to make no such specific assumption—just that the diphthong as a unit is longer; additionally, the use of [i̯] is problematic in that someone with generic knowledge of IPA and diacritics might assume that those sequences are equivalent to [aːj aːw eːj œːj oːw], as IPA by default associated certain cardinal approximants as being equivalent to certain asyllabic vowels [j=i̯ ɥ=y̯ ɰ=ɯ̯ w=u̯], when such an assumption also cannot necessarily be made in regards to [j] in Icelandic, which means even the short versions [ai̯ au̯ ei̯ œi̯ ou̯] have the same problem. However, using a tie as in [a͡i a͡u e͡i œ͡i o͡u] makes it crystal clear that each of these pairings of vowels are one phonetic unit, so that the long diphthongs [a͡iː a͡uː e͡iː œ͡iː o͡uː] are immediately clearer at a glance. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 10:15, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn. No fundamental agreement in favor of using tie bars can be reached. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 05:59, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Nardog: @ Sol505000: I made a new proposal further down, replacing this one. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 10:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
The use of mid-open vowel symbols [ɛ ɔ] for monophthongs and mid-close symbols [e o] for the onset of diphthongs [ei ou] has no basis in fact, as shown in Flego-Berkson (2020) p8, where indeed it's entirely common for the onset height of diphthongs to be more open [ɛ͡i ɔ͡u] than for the genuinely mid short monophthongs [e̞ o̞], and for long monophthongs to actually be opening diphthongs [e͡ɛː o͡ɔː] (or [ɪ͡ɛː ʊ͡ɔː]), all within the realm of free variation in a language not known for having major concurrent differences in dialect. This IPA guide already uses a common onset symbol [œ] for the vowels with mid central rounded onsets [œ œi]. (I have a separate proposal for the central vowel symbols, but I won't focus on that here.) So why not just the generic mid front unrounded symbol [e] for all front unrounded mid onsets [e eː e͡i e͡iː], and the generic mid back rounded symbol [o] for all back rounded onsets [o oː o͡u o͡uː]? - Gilgamesh ( talk) 10:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn and reorganized. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 20:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
As noted in both Flego-Berkson (2020) and in Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020), the onsets of the vowels ö au u are not front rounded [œ ʏ], but actually central rounded vowels, with Eiríkur in particular describing [œ] as having a position closer to that of a true schwa [ə]. Eiríkur also notes that the symbols [œ ʏ] are a matter of tradition, which is why he uses them. However, it's understood that front vowels [ai ɛ ei ɪ i] and the consonant [j] immediately after velar consonants [k kʰ ɣ] trigger those consonants becoming palatal [c cʰ j], but that the "front rounded" vowels [œ œi ʏ] do not trigger this change, with at least one other user in Talk:Icelandic phonology highlighting this confusion. But since these are actually central vowels and not front vowels at all, then using actual central vowel symbols might make this clearer at a glance.
In harmony with my other proposal using common mid vowel symbols for vowels with mid vowel onsets, the most obvious cardinal symbol to replace [œ] would be [ɵ], as it was historically adopted as the symbol for a rounded schwa. If my proposal for common mid vowel symbols is rejected, then it can also be noted that since 1993 there are now two separate cardinal symbols for rounded central vowels: [ɵ] for close-mid, and [ɞ] for open-mid, in harmony with other close-mid symbols [e o] and open-mid symbols [ɛ ɔ]. I wouldn't actually recommend going with separate [ɵ ɞ] for the same reason my mid-vowel symbol proposal exists: It's an artificial distinction without basis in fact.
The matter of IPA for the near-close rounded central vowel (represented orthographically by u and currently indicated with the more frontish symbol [ʏ]) is a little more complicated because there is currently no canonically-adopted IPA symbol for that specific vowel position. All possible symbols would require the use of diacritics [ʏ̈ ʉ̞ ʊ̈ ɵ̝]. However, the unmarked symbol [ʉ] seems to harmonize best with the unmarked symbol [ɵ]. There is an unofficial phonetic symbol [ᵿ] traditionally used in English phonological discussion and by the Oxford English Dictionary, and it has a canonical encoding in Unicode, but it has not been adopted by the IPA, so it would seem irresponsible to suggest its use here.
With the symbols I've suggested, [œ ʏ] could be replaced with [ɵ ʉ] respectively.
The monophthong a (currently indicated [a]) is also a central (unrounded) vowel, equivalent to [ɐ̞] or [ä]. A similar confusion also exists where the diphthong [ai] usually palatalizes a preceding velar consonant whereas the monophthong [a] does not, but I may address that in a separate proposal. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 11:26, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn and reorganized. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 20:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I previously proposed and withdrew a different proposal involving tie bars, but it became clear that no agreement could be reached in favor of using tie bars on diphthongs. But the issue of clarity of existing ⟨VVː⟩ notation (particularly how my mind always speedbumps when I read it) compels me to still suggest some form of clarification. I also previously suggested that we can't assume one component of a diphthong has more emphasis than the other, and I still can't see how we can assume they do. But lacking a better option for diphthong clarity, I propose the notation [ai̯] for short diphthongs and [aːi̯] for long monophthongs. I do not favor this option (the tie bars still looked clearest to me), but this is still clearer than bare [aiː] notation. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 06:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
It seems the otherwise unmarked ⟨VVː⟩ diphthong notation also appears to be conventional for long diphthongs in Faroese IPA, while Old English IPA uses ⟨VːV̯⟩ for its long diphthongs. Of course, the distinction is that both Icelandic and Faroese are living languages, while Old English is an ancient language whose phonological representation is largely academic. I'm honestly not entirely sure which option is the wisest course.
But it also seems, overall, that if the tie bar is excluded, then IPA seems hobbled in its ability to elegantly represent smoothly-transitioning diphthongs. I had considered the tie bar the most logical option not just for Icelandic diphthongs but most for diphthongs in most languages because (1) I'd already thought it was accepted usage through all the examples I'd already seen (example osmosis) and before recently I'd never heard it suggested otherwise, and (2) There seemed to be an intuitively straightforward analogy between tied diphthongs and tied affricates, at least as a hindsight justification for usage I had already long occasionally seen in practice. It is true that some uses of the tie bar imply dual articulation for other languages, like [k͡p]. But the tie bar in affricate notation, like [t͡ʃ], is not strictly a simultaneous articulation of the symbols, but a unitary sequence of one sound followed by the other in such a way that they can't be mistaken as belonging to separate syllables. After all, if you see [t͡ʃ], you don't read it the same as if it were [ʃ͡t], because it's not, strictly speaking, a simultaneous articulation of two different sounds in different parts of the mouth, but [t] seamlessly followed by [ʃ]. When an affricate is geminated, the notation I've seen for Faroese appears to be [t͡ʃː] (though it also seems worth mentioning that a similar sound can be represented in a language like Italian as [ttʃ]). Likewise, since two vowels in general cannot be genuinely dually articulated because it involves differences in the shape of the mouth overall, it logically followed that notation like [a͡i] can only reasonably refer to diphthongs. After all (and this example is not particular to any language), why use [ɛ͡e] to bizarrely notate a monophthong equidistant between [ɛ] and [e], when you could just use [ɛ̝] or [e̞]? A tie bar for diphthongs was a principle that never seemed to require any special logic leap, but rather seemed like a natural inference of IPA's allowances. I have attempted to address @ Nardog:'s reservations about tied diphthongs, and I don't necessarily expect I can persuade him personally on this matter, but it still seems difficult for me to endorse the contradictory logic that a tie bar can be used for [k͡p] as a simultaneous articulation on one hand and for [t͡ʃ] as a smooth unitarily-articulated consonant sequence (an affricate) on the other hand and yet not also for [a͡i] as a smooth unitarily-articulated vowel sequence (a diphthong). I still cannot prove that tied diphthongs are officially approved IPA use, but short of a specific official reference discouraging them, and considering that tied diphthongs have already occasionally been in use since before my time, it never seemed necessary to require approval for what appeared to be a simple logical inference. To be confused by such a thing would be like...someone being in any way confused when someone refers to an audibly lengthened vowel as "geminated," when in truth that is exactly what happens when any sound (whether it be a consonant or vowel) is articulated for an audibly longer-than-normal duration. Consensus questions like these need not necessarily be a matter of disagreement according to individual taste in IPA notation, but a matter of what a hypothetical third party's conventional logical process is likely to infer from a notation, and whether a notation can be considered graphically clearer than its alternatives. And, with all due respect, I believe this is an important concern that deserves to be considered in full and not treated with a "tl;dr" and reflexive dismissal. (I also have an autism spectrum-related communications quirk, and as such, succinctness is not necessarily my greatest strength.) - Gilgamesh ( talk) 07:39, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Proposal withdrawn. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 20:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I may have made a mistake in making so many individual proposals and treating them like they could be independently discussed. But the truth is, all my proposals are linked. So here is one unified proposal with a pithier list:
Examples:
Now, my more in-depth rationales. These details are considerably less pithy.
Rationale for ⟨au⟩ [œi] → [ɵ͡i], ⟨u⟩ [ʏ] → [ʉ] and ⟨ö⟩ [œ] → [ɵ]:
Rationale for ⟨e⟩ [ɛ] → [e], ⟨o⟩ [ɔ] → [o] and ⟨ö⟩ [œ] → [ɵ]:
Rationale for ⟨á⟩ [au] → [a͡u], ⟨au⟩ [œi] → [ɵ͡i], ⟨ei⟩, ⟨ey⟩ [ei] → [e͡i], ⟨ó⟩ [ou] → [o͡u] and ⟨æ⟩ [ai] → [a͡i]:
Special mention for ⟨a⟩ [a], ⟨á⟩ [a͡u] and ⟨æ⟩ [a͡i]:
Special mention for geminated consonants:
This all forms the basis of my combined repackaged proposal, with both pithy and detailed segments. Any part of it can be discussed, with suggestions for modification, etc. I just really want to do this by an organized and engaged consensus process if at all possible. - Gilgamesh ( talk) 06:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
In this article https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282778942_Phonetic_Transcription_Guideline_Icelandic "au" is represented as [œy] which also corresponds to my understanding of the IPA and the Icelandic language. Hugstar ( talk) 15:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
The page currently lists 'boot' for 'U', and 'food' for 'Ú', but "boot" and "food" are both the same sound, a close back rounded vowel, at least in the English I know. 'Ú' is indeed pronounced like "food" (and "boot"), but "U" is pronounced like the I in "pig", but said with rounded lips like 'Ö'. Example here - "Kaffið er þunnt".
'U' is only pronounced like "boot" when it comes before 'NG' or 'NK' - see here. -- Rei ( talk) 12:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)