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what is special about the r consonant? any vowel can be followed by any consonant. Is it necessary to show this column? also in the syllabic consonants table can't we have any vowel or consonant that section seems incomplete.-- Hackasaur ( talk) 19:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
I’ll have to listen to EastEnders more closely and find some more Kiwi speakers to listen to then I guess but this does seem possible, I’m from the West Midlands in England myself. In the same vein it might be worth mentioning the way phrases like ‘get off’ are pronounced ‘geroff’ by some English speakers (more typically in the North and occasionally the Midlands than the South though) Overlordnat1 ( talk) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Also intrusive r can replace a glottalised t in the middle of a word, in South Yorkshire in particular people often say ‘Ah’m gerrin’ berra’ instead of ‘I’m getting better’. Overlordnat1 ( talk) 18:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
There are a huge number of place names that have the stress on the (ante)penult in GA but on both the (ante)penult and the ult in RP, for example Bangalore. Merr-Web combines the stress marks for this. Would that be useful for us? Often we don't bother to indicate both pronunciations just to avoid the clutter, and this might help. E.g. 'Bangalore' would be /¦bæŋɡə¦lɔːr/ (= UK /ˌbæŋɡəˈlɔːr/, US /ˈbæŋɡəlɔːr/). — kwami ( talk) 23:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Could someone have a look at the English pronunciation given at Narendra Modi? An editor recently changed the ds to ðs, arguing that it better reflects the native pronunciation. I find that doubly baffling – first, because if I'm not mistaken, the English pronunciation is normally given in a broad phonemic transcription, and not in narrow phonetic one reflecting a particular variety of English. Second, if the goal of the ð is to represent the dental/alveolar d common in many varieties of Indian English, then it fails at that. The symbol for this sound is [d̪], not [ð]. In IPA, ð stands for the voiced dental fricative, which is not found in Indian English (or at least not as an allophone of this phoneme). It's not found in Hindi either, and as for the native language of the article's subject – Gujarati – it occurs, but as an allophone of /dh/, not /d/. – Uanfala (talk) 21:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
And pray tell me WikiPolice, how will you pronounce his middle name, Damodardas, in English? That is, without listening to Modi do it. The English version will sound in gumption more and more like an English-speaking tourist in France insisting on calling the late president Frank-oys Mitter-and. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Is there a reason for the omission of the NURSE vowel /ɜː/ in the column for non-rhotic strong vowels, and its appearance lower down in the "Marginal Segments" table? If WP objects to the use of this symbol, I would have thought a note was needed to explain. RoachPeter ( talk) 08:13, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Are the NURSE and DRESS vowels all in caps, as opposed to some others in the key, even when those others stand alone as the only example for the vowel (e.g. “flour”) because they have some wider accepted standard? In other words, would you write “the FLOUR vowel”? Shiggity ( talk) 20:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Hearing the sound " ə" it sounds more like in fur and bird, even in the 'followed by R...' column and syllabic consonants section:
ər | LETTER, forward, history |
əl | bottle (either [əl] or [l̩]) |
ən | button (either [ən] or [n̩]) |
əm | rhythm (either [əm] or [m̩]) |
it sounds more like that. Are the examples COMMA and bazaar correct for ə? ɑː seems to already cover this sound in PALM? and some examples in the vowels tables are in uppercase like COMMA shouldn't they be in lowercase? -- Hackasaur ( talk) 19:30, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
I think Nardog has the right of it here. Technically that sound is called a schwa and is an unstressed vowel. It verymuch depends on the language or dialect of the listener and how they perceive the sound. Comes.amanuensis ( talk) 22:39, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
It makes no sense to try using IPA as a guide to "regional" or other dialectal variations in pronunciation, as it was designed to represent a standard (hence "I" for "international") pronunciation of English. Therefore most of the section on "Dialect variation" is superfluous or outright counterproductive. Witness the discussion of imagined differentiations (or non-differentiations) between the stressed vowels in "merry", "Mary" and "marry", or the ubiquitous admonitions headed "If you speak such a dialect ..." - even such speakers can and should know and learn what the standard pronunciation is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.118.122 ( talk) 06:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
This sounds really silly, but how exactly do you transcribe Mary? If I try to format [mɛəri] the usual way using {{
IPAc-en|m|ɛə|r|i}}
I get an output with two rs:
/mɛərri/. If I omit one of them – {{
IPAc-en|m|ɛə|i}}
– the result looks good on paper:
/mɛəri/, but if you follow the respelling prompts, you'd wrongly conclude the r should be silent in RP. –
Uanfala (talk)
01:52, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
{{
IPAc-en|m|ɛər|i}}
. Every diaphoneme on this guide except /iə/ and /uə/ can (and should) be input in its own parameter.
Nardog (
talk)
04:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC)Forgive me if this issue has been raised many times, and also forgive my general ignorance on this subjectmatter. Reading through the chart, the examples given generally make perfect sense to me and seem right, except for ɪ.
The examples given for ɪ are KIT, historic, and sing. I could be wrong, but I think most people pronounce those vowels quite differently. I certainly do.
• The ɪ in "Historic" is lower in the mouth and very closed, nearer to eɪ or ə
• The ɪ in "Sing" is much higher, like a short iː
• But both the above sounds are quite soft and use an almost closed mouth. On the other hand, the ɪ in "Kit" is radically different from the other two, very hard and forceful, with the entire mouth much more open, placed deep in the throat, virtually a glottal stop. Hard sounds like this can only be made for words like "Kit" and "Pick" when the vowel has sufficient break after it.
To me, they seem like very different sounds. Grand Dizzy ( talk) 21:06, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Talk:Barry Keoghan could use attention from editors in this area. Nardog ( talk) 13:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I have changed /ər/ to /ɚ/ and /ɜr/to /ɝ/ for precise phonetic transcription. You can check the transcription in Cambridge dictionary. Nishānt Omm ( talk) 03:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
English uses əʊ (not oʊ) diphthong. If someone will carefully hear their Pronunciation they will hear it to be a combination of a ‘schwa’ and ‘ʊ’ vowel as in book. Nishānt Omm ( talk) 15:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Have “c” and “q” ever been part of the english IPA? Dontuseurrealname ( talk) 16:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
can we get rid of the silly /?? ??/ that hardly anyone is going to bother to interpret from this parent page and take the time to sound out, and just have a link to a .wav pronunciation instead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:642:4002:5490:B041:C911:216C:B2CF ( talk) 02:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
I pronounce "length" with an /iː/, definitely *not* an /ɛ/ as in "dress". Maybe it's just my Texan dialect. Does the rest of the English-speaking world overwhemingly use /ɛ/ instead of /iː/ or /e/ or something else? If not, then "length" should be removed as an example. 206.180.44.25 ( talk) 20:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
This seems to indicate erroneously that there's some free alternation between /ɔːr/ and /ʊər/ for <au> and <aw>, irrespectively, which is false. -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 10:11, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Related to the above, I pronounce "sing" like /siːŋ/ instead of /sɪŋ/ AltoStev ( talk) 15:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
The "nia" in California is pronounced /njə/, by every native English speaker I know, including quite a few Californians, maybe we can change the /iə/ example to Bosnia or Algeria or something like that. AmazinglyLifelike ( talk) 15:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
My changes to the description of IPA/En are independent of the discussion. It claimed that "In accents with the weak vowel merger such as most Australian and American accents, /ɪ/ in unstressed positions is not distinguished from /ə/." That is false: the abbot/rabbit distinction in reduced vowels is not made, but as the article we link to explains, a reduced ("weak") vowel is not the same thing as an unstressed vowel. Also, the -ing suffix is a bad example: it's not schwi, but simply /ɪ/. So if my proposal is rejected, those things still need to be corrected. — kwami ( talk) 08:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Pre-/ŋ/ may not be the only environment where a weak vowel in GA is commonly transcribed the same as KIT btw. Image is transcribed with the symbol for KIT by both Merriam-Webster and Upton & Kretzschmar. Also American sources transcribe the second syllables of civic and havoc differently even though AFAIK they're pronounced the same in accents they represent. So even if we posited and defined ⟨ᵻ⟩ as a weak vowel that is identified with KIT in RP and commA in GA, there would still be contexts where we would have to include /ɪ/ among the weak vowels. Nardog ( talk) 09:40, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
For most Americans ə and ɪ are not distinct as weak vowels (so that rabbit rhymes with abbot). For AmE LPD follows the rule of showing ɪ before palato-alveolar and velar consonants (ʃ, tʃ, dʒ, k, ɡ, ŋ), but ə elsewhere. Where no separate indication is given for AmE, but both ɪ and ə variants are shown for an entry, it may be assumed that AmE prefers ɪ or ə according to this rule. The actual quality used by Americans for ə varies considerably, being typically more ɪ-like when followed by a consonant but more ʌ-like when at the end of a word.Nardog ( talk) 13:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Help:IPA/English has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The IPA transcription for “taxpayer” should be /ˈtæks.peɪ.ər/ not /ˈtæks.peɪər/. It should have 3 syllables. 2A02:C7F:EE9F:B100:50F3:4999:E2FD:B738 ( talk) 19:49, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
In Help:IPA/English#Key, please change
to
96.244.220.178 ( talk) 08:19, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
We replaced the transcription ⟨ᵻ⟩ with the KIT vowel ⟨ɪ⟩, so that it now pulls double duty. That's equivalent to transcribing the COMMA vowel with ⟨ʌ⟩. If we're going to merge schwi with anything, we should merge it with schwa ⟨ə⟩. Currently we have a lot of cases where the KIT and COMMA vowels are confused. We'd just need to merge the cells with the COMMA and "rabbit" examples, and change the alias for ⟨ᵻ⟩ in the template. — kwami ( talk) 07:18, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
reinstate a diaphonemic transcription and distinguish all three(presumably by having another //ɪ// with a different tooltip)? What are the sources for the differentiation? What do other dictionaries do? -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 06:07, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
One of the reasons why ⟨ᵻ⟩ was removed is that it does not belong to the IPA, see Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 21#RfC: Proposed deprecation of /ᵻ, ᵿ/. That reason has not changed a bit. I am strongly opposed to introducing non-IPA signs into an IPA transcription key. -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 16:16, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Nardog, yes, hippogriph and regolith are /ˈstrong.weak.strong/, but other words are /ˈstrong.weak.weak/. How do we distinguish the two cases if we don't have a symbol for the strong vowel? Both the OED and MW distinguish them, the OED by choice of vowel letter, MW by adding a spurious 2ary stress mark. The latter is not a good option for us because, as you say, we use IPA. In the IPA, the stress marks mark stress, not vowel quality. For the same reason, we shouldn't write disyllables as monosyllables with a stress mark, the way the OED does.
As for how we source it, the diaphoneme is {UK /ɪ/ :: GA /ə/}. That is, when the OED has <ɪ> and MW has <ə>, then we transcribe it as this vowel rather than promoting one variety of English above the other. — kwami ( talk) 21:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
In the IPA, the stress marks mark stress, not vowel quality.Except American sources do place post-tonic stress in IPA transcriptions... The difference isn't IPA vs M-W, it's American vs British (and even British sources do use post-tonic stress in compounds).
write disyllables as monosyllables with a stress mark, the way the OED doesThis is demonstrably false. Upton doesn't posit triphthongs, so he transcribes hire as a disyllable rhyming with liar (as does Wells). They just omit stress for monosyllables because they don't need it (unlike M-W, which uses ⟨ə⟩ for STRUT). But that's neither here nor there.
As for objecting to the symbol ⟨ᵻ⟩ because it's not IPA, the choice of symbol is secondary, but I'd like to point out that there's a century-long tradition in JIPA of using non-IPA letters even in their illustrations of the IPA, when the IPA is judged inadequate. Authors prefer to avoid that situation, of course, but they're willing to accept e.g. ɺ with a retroflex hook even though that's not an IPA letter. — kwami ( talk) 07:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
tl;dr: Has something been decided here where we now transcribe words like fortis as /ˈfɔːrtəs/ rather than /ˈfɔːrtɪs/ (per Kwamikagami at Fortis and lenis)? If so, can we please reflect that here, which otherwise suggests that we still use the weak vowel transcription /ɪ/? Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Where on Earth is the symbol for the vowel in "dune", tune", or "new"? Couldn't find it anywhere on the table. Or are we to use /jiːuː/? Mac Dreamstate ( talk) 21:55, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
|
to separate each symbol—that's what I've seen being used inconsistently.
Mac Dreamstate (
talk)
20:20, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
|.|
instead.
Nardog (
talk)
20:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)How to transcribe the alveolar nasal flap in "Toronto"? Locally, it is pronounced [tɨˈɹɒɾ̃oʊ], [tɨˈɹɒɾ̃ə] or [ˈt̠ɹ̠̊˔ɒɾ̃ə]. Naturally, the first transcription can be converted to /təˈrɒntoʊ/, the second one to /təˈrɒntə/ and the third one to /ˈtrɒntə/. But the /t/ is never sounded in Toronto English, especially in the last two pronunciations which are the most broad in the local speech. So, should it be /nt/ or /n/? Is the alveolar nasal flapped in Canadian English? Sol505000 ( talk) 14:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Is there a reason r-colored vowels aren't included in the list? ForestAngel ( talk) 13:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi all. Do we have a consensus to not transcribe secondary stress in any syllable following the primary stress? If so, we'll probably want to explicitly clarify how we've agreed to represent secondary stress on the main page. Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 01:13, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't the last word in footnote 19 be "dairy"? That seems to be what the pronunciation example is saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ted Sweetser ( talk • contribs) 17:54, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per the previous discussions ( Help talk:IPA/English#Full vowels and weak vowels should be kept distinct, Help talk:IPA/English#schwi vs KIT), should we reintroduce the distinction between a full KIT vowel /ɪ/ and the reduced KIT/schwi /ᵻ/? Sol505000 ( talk) 15:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
@Nardog: So the last vowel in 'battleship' is indistinguishable from a schwa? — kwami ( talk) 03:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Nardog: Per English orthography, the spellings ⟨a, ei, ey, oe⟩ (and mostly ⟨ai⟩ as well, AFAICS) seem to always indicate a reduced KIT (or other vowels, apart from the full KIT), so that Dinklage features both types of KIT: /ˈdɪŋklᵻdʒ/, whereas Boleyn has a full KIT only in the variant stressed on the last syllable: /ˈbʊlᵻn, bʊˈlɪn/. I think ⟨e⟩ (used in about 16% of all KIT words in a dictionary, per Cruttenden 2014:113), most often stands for a reduced vowel as well. ⟨y⟩ (used in 20% of all KIT words in a dictionary), on the other hand, stands for a strong KIT. Also, any instance of KIT that occurs immediately before stress (and is not tensed to [ i) is probably reduced. That only leaves a preconsonantal ⟨i⟩ (used in 61% of all KIT words in a dictionary) as an ambiguous spelling - unless it is preceded by an intervocalic /t, d/, as in autism /ˈɔːtɪzəm/, which clarifies whether ⟨i⟩ stands for a reduced KIT, or a full KIT - the latter blocks flapping, whereas the former does not: [ˈɔtɪzəm] (-ism /-ɪzəm/ is strong-weak like the US pronunciation of -ary /-ɛri/ - or like schism /ˈskɪzəm/, an actual word). So the picture isn't nearly as blurred (and, in addition to that, reintroducing /ᵻ/ would help non-natives with flapping the correct T's and D's!) The wording in Cruttenden 2014:113 seems to indicate that unstressed KIT is more often reduced than full. Sol505000 ( talk) 13:37, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Furthermore, there are suffixes such as -ford, -shire, -land, etc. that indicate a clear morpheme boundary after the preceding sound. These too seem to signal a preceding reduced /ᵻ/, as in Hereford /ˈhɛrᵻfərd/ or (GA) Maryland /ˈmɛrᵻlənd/. Sol505000 ( talk) 00:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: This is a phonemic transcription, so the symbols are not phonetically defined. It doesn't really matter which symbol we use, but without making the distinction, we now have separate GA and RP transcriptions, which is what this system was supposed to avoid. — kwami ( talk) 03:36, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: The main question is about reintroducing the distinction, not about the symbol used which can be anything we decide (⟨ɨ⟩ comes to mind as the most obvious replacement). Your reply is off-topic. Sol505000 ( talk) 10:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Nardog: You were looking for a minimal pair - try battle it /ˈbætəlᵻt/ vs. battleship /ˈbætəlʃɪp/, a near-minimal pair. This is the best I can come up with right now. I'm pretty sure that there are at least one or two minimal pairs. Look for (verb) it vs. (noun). Sol505000 ( talk) 22:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
There's an even better one: catch it /ˈkætʃ.ᵻt/ vs. cat shit /ˈkæt.ʃɪt/ (unless I'm mistaken and the latter isn't stressed like bullshit, horseshit etc.). Sol505000 ( talk) 23:12, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 |
what is special about the r consonant? any vowel can be followed by any consonant. Is it necessary to show this column? also in the syllabic consonants table can't we have any vowel or consonant that section seems incomplete.-- Hackasaur ( talk) 19:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
I’ll have to listen to EastEnders more closely and find some more Kiwi speakers to listen to then I guess but this does seem possible, I’m from the West Midlands in England myself. In the same vein it might be worth mentioning the way phrases like ‘get off’ are pronounced ‘geroff’ by some English speakers (more typically in the North and occasionally the Midlands than the South though) Overlordnat1 ( talk) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Also intrusive r can replace a glottalised t in the middle of a word, in South Yorkshire in particular people often say ‘Ah’m gerrin’ berra’ instead of ‘I’m getting better’. Overlordnat1 ( talk) 18:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
There are a huge number of place names that have the stress on the (ante)penult in GA but on both the (ante)penult and the ult in RP, for example Bangalore. Merr-Web combines the stress marks for this. Would that be useful for us? Often we don't bother to indicate both pronunciations just to avoid the clutter, and this might help. E.g. 'Bangalore' would be /¦bæŋɡə¦lɔːr/ (= UK /ˌbæŋɡəˈlɔːr/, US /ˈbæŋɡəlɔːr/). — kwami ( talk) 23:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Could someone have a look at the English pronunciation given at Narendra Modi? An editor recently changed the ds to ðs, arguing that it better reflects the native pronunciation. I find that doubly baffling – first, because if I'm not mistaken, the English pronunciation is normally given in a broad phonemic transcription, and not in narrow phonetic one reflecting a particular variety of English. Second, if the goal of the ð is to represent the dental/alveolar d common in many varieties of Indian English, then it fails at that. The symbol for this sound is [d̪], not [ð]. In IPA, ð stands for the voiced dental fricative, which is not found in Indian English (or at least not as an allophone of this phoneme). It's not found in Hindi either, and as for the native language of the article's subject – Gujarati – it occurs, but as an allophone of /dh/, not /d/. – Uanfala (talk) 21:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
And pray tell me WikiPolice, how will you pronounce his middle name, Damodardas, in English? That is, without listening to Modi do it. The English version will sound in gumption more and more like an English-speaking tourist in France insisting on calling the late president Frank-oys Mitter-and. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Is there a reason for the omission of the NURSE vowel /ɜː/ in the column for non-rhotic strong vowels, and its appearance lower down in the "Marginal Segments" table? If WP objects to the use of this symbol, I would have thought a note was needed to explain. RoachPeter ( talk) 08:13, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Are the NURSE and DRESS vowels all in caps, as opposed to some others in the key, even when those others stand alone as the only example for the vowel (e.g. “flour”) because they have some wider accepted standard? In other words, would you write “the FLOUR vowel”? Shiggity ( talk) 20:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Hearing the sound " ə" it sounds more like in fur and bird, even in the 'followed by R...' column and syllabic consonants section:
ər | LETTER, forward, history |
əl | bottle (either [əl] or [l̩]) |
ən | button (either [ən] or [n̩]) |
əm | rhythm (either [əm] or [m̩]) |
it sounds more like that. Are the examples COMMA and bazaar correct for ə? ɑː seems to already cover this sound in PALM? and some examples in the vowels tables are in uppercase like COMMA shouldn't they be in lowercase? -- Hackasaur ( talk) 19:30, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
I think Nardog has the right of it here. Technically that sound is called a schwa and is an unstressed vowel. It verymuch depends on the language or dialect of the listener and how they perceive the sound. Comes.amanuensis ( talk) 22:39, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
It makes no sense to try using IPA as a guide to "regional" or other dialectal variations in pronunciation, as it was designed to represent a standard (hence "I" for "international") pronunciation of English. Therefore most of the section on "Dialect variation" is superfluous or outright counterproductive. Witness the discussion of imagined differentiations (or non-differentiations) between the stressed vowels in "merry", "Mary" and "marry", or the ubiquitous admonitions headed "If you speak such a dialect ..." - even such speakers can and should know and learn what the standard pronunciation is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.118.122 ( talk) 06:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
This sounds really silly, but how exactly do you transcribe Mary? If I try to format [mɛəri] the usual way using {{
IPAc-en|m|ɛə|r|i}}
I get an output with two rs:
/mɛərri/. If I omit one of them – {{
IPAc-en|m|ɛə|i}}
– the result looks good on paper:
/mɛəri/, but if you follow the respelling prompts, you'd wrongly conclude the r should be silent in RP. –
Uanfala (talk)
01:52, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
{{
IPAc-en|m|ɛər|i}}
. Every diaphoneme on this guide except /iə/ and /uə/ can (and should) be input in its own parameter.
Nardog (
talk)
04:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC)Forgive me if this issue has been raised many times, and also forgive my general ignorance on this subjectmatter. Reading through the chart, the examples given generally make perfect sense to me and seem right, except for ɪ.
The examples given for ɪ are KIT, historic, and sing. I could be wrong, but I think most people pronounce those vowels quite differently. I certainly do.
• The ɪ in "Historic" is lower in the mouth and very closed, nearer to eɪ or ə
• The ɪ in "Sing" is much higher, like a short iː
• But both the above sounds are quite soft and use an almost closed mouth. On the other hand, the ɪ in "Kit" is radically different from the other two, very hard and forceful, with the entire mouth much more open, placed deep in the throat, virtually a glottal stop. Hard sounds like this can only be made for words like "Kit" and "Pick" when the vowel has sufficient break after it.
To me, they seem like very different sounds. Grand Dizzy ( talk) 21:06, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Talk:Barry Keoghan could use attention from editors in this area. Nardog ( talk) 13:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I have changed /ər/ to /ɚ/ and /ɜr/to /ɝ/ for precise phonetic transcription. You can check the transcription in Cambridge dictionary. Nishānt Omm ( talk) 03:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
English uses əʊ (not oʊ) diphthong. If someone will carefully hear their Pronunciation they will hear it to be a combination of a ‘schwa’ and ‘ʊ’ vowel as in book. Nishānt Omm ( talk) 15:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Have “c” and “q” ever been part of the english IPA? Dontuseurrealname ( talk) 16:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
can we get rid of the silly /?? ??/ that hardly anyone is going to bother to interpret from this parent page and take the time to sound out, and just have a link to a .wav pronunciation instead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:642:4002:5490:B041:C911:216C:B2CF ( talk) 02:57, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
I pronounce "length" with an /iː/, definitely *not* an /ɛ/ as in "dress". Maybe it's just my Texan dialect. Does the rest of the English-speaking world overwhemingly use /ɛ/ instead of /iː/ or /e/ or something else? If not, then "length" should be removed as an example. 206.180.44.25 ( talk) 20:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
This seems to indicate erroneously that there's some free alternation between /ɔːr/ and /ʊər/ for <au> and <aw>, irrespectively, which is false. -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 10:11, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Related to the above, I pronounce "sing" like /siːŋ/ instead of /sɪŋ/ AltoStev ( talk) 15:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
The "nia" in California is pronounced /njə/, by every native English speaker I know, including quite a few Californians, maybe we can change the /iə/ example to Bosnia or Algeria or something like that. AmazinglyLifelike ( talk) 15:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
My changes to the description of IPA/En are independent of the discussion. It claimed that "In accents with the weak vowel merger such as most Australian and American accents, /ɪ/ in unstressed positions is not distinguished from /ə/." That is false: the abbot/rabbit distinction in reduced vowels is not made, but as the article we link to explains, a reduced ("weak") vowel is not the same thing as an unstressed vowel. Also, the -ing suffix is a bad example: it's not schwi, but simply /ɪ/. So if my proposal is rejected, those things still need to be corrected. — kwami ( talk) 08:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Pre-/ŋ/ may not be the only environment where a weak vowel in GA is commonly transcribed the same as KIT btw. Image is transcribed with the symbol for KIT by both Merriam-Webster and Upton & Kretzschmar. Also American sources transcribe the second syllables of civic and havoc differently even though AFAIK they're pronounced the same in accents they represent. So even if we posited and defined ⟨ᵻ⟩ as a weak vowel that is identified with KIT in RP and commA in GA, there would still be contexts where we would have to include /ɪ/ among the weak vowels. Nardog ( talk) 09:40, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
For most Americans ə and ɪ are not distinct as weak vowels (so that rabbit rhymes with abbot). For AmE LPD follows the rule of showing ɪ before palato-alveolar and velar consonants (ʃ, tʃ, dʒ, k, ɡ, ŋ), but ə elsewhere. Where no separate indication is given for AmE, but both ɪ and ə variants are shown for an entry, it may be assumed that AmE prefers ɪ or ə according to this rule. The actual quality used by Americans for ə varies considerably, being typically more ɪ-like when followed by a consonant but more ʌ-like when at the end of a word.Nardog ( talk) 13:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
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The IPA transcription for “taxpayer” should be /ˈtæks.peɪ.ər/ not /ˈtæks.peɪər/. It should have 3 syllables. 2A02:C7F:EE9F:B100:50F3:4999:E2FD:B738 ( talk) 19:49, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
In Help:IPA/English#Key, please change
to
96.244.220.178 ( talk) 08:19, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
We replaced the transcription ⟨ᵻ⟩ with the KIT vowel ⟨ɪ⟩, so that it now pulls double duty. That's equivalent to transcribing the COMMA vowel with ⟨ʌ⟩. If we're going to merge schwi with anything, we should merge it with schwa ⟨ə⟩. Currently we have a lot of cases where the KIT and COMMA vowels are confused. We'd just need to merge the cells with the COMMA and "rabbit" examples, and change the alias for ⟨ᵻ⟩ in the template. — kwami ( talk) 07:18, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
reinstate a diaphonemic transcription and distinguish all three(presumably by having another //ɪ// with a different tooltip)? What are the sources for the differentiation? What do other dictionaries do? -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 06:07, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
One of the reasons why ⟨ᵻ⟩ was removed is that it does not belong to the IPA, see Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 21#RfC: Proposed deprecation of /ᵻ, ᵿ/. That reason has not changed a bit. I am strongly opposed to introducing non-IPA signs into an IPA transcription key. -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 16:16, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Nardog, yes, hippogriph and regolith are /ˈstrong.weak.strong/, but other words are /ˈstrong.weak.weak/. How do we distinguish the two cases if we don't have a symbol for the strong vowel? Both the OED and MW distinguish them, the OED by choice of vowel letter, MW by adding a spurious 2ary stress mark. The latter is not a good option for us because, as you say, we use IPA. In the IPA, the stress marks mark stress, not vowel quality. For the same reason, we shouldn't write disyllables as monosyllables with a stress mark, the way the OED does.
As for how we source it, the diaphoneme is {UK /ɪ/ :: GA /ə/}. That is, when the OED has <ɪ> and MW has <ə>, then we transcribe it as this vowel rather than promoting one variety of English above the other. — kwami ( talk) 21:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
In the IPA, the stress marks mark stress, not vowel quality.Except American sources do place post-tonic stress in IPA transcriptions... The difference isn't IPA vs M-W, it's American vs British (and even British sources do use post-tonic stress in compounds).
write disyllables as monosyllables with a stress mark, the way the OED doesThis is demonstrably false. Upton doesn't posit triphthongs, so he transcribes hire as a disyllable rhyming with liar (as does Wells). They just omit stress for monosyllables because they don't need it (unlike M-W, which uses ⟨ə⟩ for STRUT). But that's neither here nor there.
As for objecting to the symbol ⟨ᵻ⟩ because it's not IPA, the choice of symbol is secondary, but I'd like to point out that there's a century-long tradition in JIPA of using non-IPA letters even in their illustrations of the IPA, when the IPA is judged inadequate. Authors prefer to avoid that situation, of course, but they're willing to accept e.g. ɺ with a retroflex hook even though that's not an IPA letter. — kwami ( talk) 07:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
tl;dr: Has something been decided here where we now transcribe words like fortis as /ˈfɔːrtəs/ rather than /ˈfɔːrtɪs/ (per Kwamikagami at Fortis and lenis)? If so, can we please reflect that here, which otherwise suggests that we still use the weak vowel transcription /ɪ/? Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Where on Earth is the symbol for the vowel in "dune", tune", or "new"? Couldn't find it anywhere on the table. Or are we to use /jiːuː/? Mac Dreamstate ( talk) 21:55, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
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to separate each symbol—that's what I've seen being used inconsistently.
Mac Dreamstate (
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instead.
Nardog (
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20:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)How to transcribe the alveolar nasal flap in "Toronto"? Locally, it is pronounced [tɨˈɹɒɾ̃oʊ], [tɨˈɹɒɾ̃ə] or [ˈt̠ɹ̠̊˔ɒɾ̃ə]. Naturally, the first transcription can be converted to /təˈrɒntoʊ/, the second one to /təˈrɒntə/ and the third one to /ˈtrɒntə/. But the /t/ is never sounded in Toronto English, especially in the last two pronunciations which are the most broad in the local speech. So, should it be /nt/ or /n/? Is the alveolar nasal flapped in Canadian English? Sol505000 ( talk) 14:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Is there a reason r-colored vowels aren't included in the list? ForestAngel ( talk) 13:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi all. Do we have a consensus to not transcribe secondary stress in any syllable following the primary stress? If so, we'll probably want to explicitly clarify how we've agreed to represent secondary stress on the main page. Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 01:13, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't the last word in footnote 19 be "dairy"? That seems to be what the pronunciation example is saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ted Sweetser ( talk • contribs) 17:54, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per the previous discussions ( Help talk:IPA/English#Full vowels and weak vowels should be kept distinct, Help talk:IPA/English#schwi vs KIT), should we reintroduce the distinction between a full KIT vowel /ɪ/ and the reduced KIT/schwi /ᵻ/? Sol505000 ( talk) 15:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
@Nardog: So the last vowel in 'battleship' is indistinguishable from a schwa? — kwami ( talk) 03:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Nardog: Per English orthography, the spellings ⟨a, ei, ey, oe⟩ (and mostly ⟨ai⟩ as well, AFAICS) seem to always indicate a reduced KIT (or other vowels, apart from the full KIT), so that Dinklage features both types of KIT: /ˈdɪŋklᵻdʒ/, whereas Boleyn has a full KIT only in the variant stressed on the last syllable: /ˈbʊlᵻn, bʊˈlɪn/. I think ⟨e⟩ (used in about 16% of all KIT words in a dictionary, per Cruttenden 2014:113), most often stands for a reduced vowel as well. ⟨y⟩ (used in 20% of all KIT words in a dictionary), on the other hand, stands for a strong KIT. Also, any instance of KIT that occurs immediately before stress (and is not tensed to [ i) is probably reduced. That only leaves a preconsonantal ⟨i⟩ (used in 61% of all KIT words in a dictionary) as an ambiguous spelling - unless it is preceded by an intervocalic /t, d/, as in autism /ˈɔːtɪzəm/, which clarifies whether ⟨i⟩ stands for a reduced KIT, or a full KIT - the latter blocks flapping, whereas the former does not: [ˈɔtɪzəm] (-ism /-ɪzəm/ is strong-weak like the US pronunciation of -ary /-ɛri/ - or like schism /ˈskɪzəm/, an actual word). So the picture isn't nearly as blurred (and, in addition to that, reintroducing /ᵻ/ would help non-natives with flapping the correct T's and D's!) The wording in Cruttenden 2014:113 seems to indicate that unstressed KIT is more often reduced than full. Sol505000 ( talk) 13:37, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Furthermore, there are suffixes such as -ford, -shire, -land, etc. that indicate a clear morpheme boundary after the preceding sound. These too seem to signal a preceding reduced /ᵻ/, as in Hereford /ˈhɛrᵻfərd/ or (GA) Maryland /ˈmɛrᵻlənd/. Sol505000 ( talk) 00:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: This is a phonemic transcription, so the symbols are not phonetically defined. It doesn't really matter which symbol we use, but without making the distinction, we now have separate GA and RP transcriptions, which is what this system was supposed to avoid. — kwami ( talk) 03:36, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: The main question is about reintroducing the distinction, not about the symbol used which can be anything we decide (⟨ɨ⟩ comes to mind as the most obvious replacement). Your reply is off-topic. Sol505000 ( talk) 10:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Nardog: You were looking for a minimal pair - try battle it /ˈbætəlᵻt/ vs. battleship /ˈbætəlʃɪp/, a near-minimal pair. This is the best I can come up with right now. I'm pretty sure that there are at least one or two minimal pairs. Look for (verb) it vs. (noun). Sol505000 ( talk) 22:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
There's an even better one: catch it /ˈkætʃ.ᵻt/ vs. cat shit /ˈkæt.ʃɪt/ (unless I'm mistaken and the latter isn't stressed like bullshit, horseshit etc.). Sol505000 ( talk) 23:12, 13 February 2022 (UTC)