Wikipedia Help NA‑class | |||||||
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Linguistics: Phonetics NA‑class | ||||||||||
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Hi Aeusoes,
Sorry, your edits got lost in an edit conflict. You'd colored them dark red, a color which is scarcely visible on my screen against the blue background. Anyway, you were thinking of highlighting transcriptions which are different from the ones we use? kwami ( talk) 09:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I added some highlighting. I think for maximum effect, we should minimize it: anything that affects multiple transcriptions that we can summarize (/r/, vowel length) would IMO be best left blue, so that the truly oddball correspondences are noticed. kwami ( talk) 00:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd thought that the Aussie IPA we have in some articles, which is credited to Macquarie Dictionary, used the same orthography as Macquarie. But it looks like Macquarie is only minimally distinct from RP. kwami ( talk) 10:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Several editors use John Wells's blog for place names. Thus we should add a column for his conventions. kwami ( talk) 10:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I've only heard of this being used in Scottish, and I don't even see an example of that in IPA_chart_for_English_dialects. I would guess that in 90% of cases the use of [r] in transcribing English sounds is flat out wrong from an IPA viewpoint. I'd like to see Wikipedia go by standard IPA and use [ɹ], rather than creating its own transcription for that sound; sure it would be more familiar to most English speakers, but considering that the transcriptions are given as phonemic rather than allophonic, I would think that these transcriptions are mostly used by people for whom the sounds of English might not be native, and would thus add an enormous amount of confusion. These conventions look fine in general; it's just the transcription of the English "r"-sound that sticks out like a sore thumb. I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know where I can talk about this (preferably on my talk page). Is there a talk page for the transcription of English somewhere? Theshibboleth ( talk) 01:33, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm on the verge of conceding this point--the two .edu links I checked for English transcription (The University of Arizona and the University of Iowa) give the sound as /r/; however I will point out that I am a linguistics student at UCLA (where Ladefoged once taught) and I have been taught in all my linguistics courses to transcribe the English r-sound as /ɹ/. I suspect that transcription of r as /ɹ/ is now or will soon be the standard in academics.
At a global level English r is from the sites I visited most often transcribed with /ɹ/ and Look for instance at [1] as well as the multiple translations of this page on other Wikipedias -- most of which give the phoneme as /ɹ/.
Also regarding "English students" knowing that English r is not a trill, that may be true, but only because they are students; Before I studied French or Spanish I had assumed that their r's were /ɹ/, and there is no reason to suspect that people from other language backgrounds would not assume that orthographic r had the same sound in English that it does in their own language--and what of speakers of languages that do not have an r-sound at all?
I was looking over WP:name and it appears that English language sources, as opposed to international standards, are favored, so I am going demonstrate support from English sources of /ɹ/ as standard. Here is an exercise from UCLA: [2].
Alright I must begrudgingly concede the point. I went over a number of journal articles, not in a particularly scientific manner, but nevertheless I could not find any support for the use of /ɹ/: [3], [4], [5], [6].
Nevertheless I certainly will use /ɹ/ in my own work, and doing so does not seem to me pedantic; doing otherwise suggests that [r] is the mother sound for /ɹ/ in various English dialects--this was what I had assumed when I saw this page, but I quickly learned otherwise. Theshibboleth ( talk) 02:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the bottom line of the table for reduced vowels have the barred u, not barred ʊ , to match the barred i three rows above? RoachPeter ( talk) 06:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to update the template at Blaa to {{ IPAc-en}}, which is given as /blæː/ under {{ IPA-en}}, but I'm not sure how to change the æː sound over to Wikipedia's conventions. Is it /eɪ/? Is this an omission, or is it just a problem with that page? 0x0077BE [ talk/ contrib] 19:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I think this article would find a better home in the main namespace. Aside from references to Wikipedia's transcription system, the content is pretty encyclopedic. Nardog ( talk) 23:12, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Currently, the article says that “[s]tress need not be included in the notation of a monosyllabic word since it is self-evident”. I seriously doubt that. I would rather think that there are some monosyllabic words that have inherent stress and others that do not, mainly function words such as “the” or “of”. Sources? -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 20:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
What does "WL" stand for? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.210.34.129 ( talk) 07:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Dear Editors,
On account of the fact that the pre-vocalic 'r' of rich is sounded in all varieties of English, and that the /ɹ/ symbol is not encountered in dictionaries of the language, and indeed rarely, if at all, outside technical literature on the subject, I humbly request that a slight modification be implemented within the 'consonants' section of the discussed help page, so as to provide it with the following appearance:
Consonants vary little between dictionaries. The ones which do are those in the words:
- char /r ~ (r) ~ ∅/;
- which, /ʍ ~ hw ~ (h)w ~ w/;
- and new, /juː ~ uː/.
Wikipedia editors have decided to go with /tʃɑːr/, /hwɪtʃ/, /njuː/ for these words.
A few dictionaries, such as dictionary.com, use "/y/" for /j/, which is at odds with the official IPA usage, which defines /y/ as close front rounded vowel (as in French tu or German über), and appears as such in transcriptions of French and German, as well as some dialects of English.
Yours faithfully,
Wikipedia Help NA‑class | |||||||
|
Linguistics: Phonetics NA‑class | ||||||||||
|
Hi Aeusoes,
Sorry, your edits got lost in an edit conflict. You'd colored them dark red, a color which is scarcely visible on my screen against the blue background. Anyway, you were thinking of highlighting transcriptions which are different from the ones we use? kwami ( talk) 09:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I added some highlighting. I think for maximum effect, we should minimize it: anything that affects multiple transcriptions that we can summarize (/r/, vowel length) would IMO be best left blue, so that the truly oddball correspondences are noticed. kwami ( talk) 00:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd thought that the Aussie IPA we have in some articles, which is credited to Macquarie Dictionary, used the same orthography as Macquarie. But it looks like Macquarie is only minimally distinct from RP. kwami ( talk) 10:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Several editors use John Wells's blog for place names. Thus we should add a column for his conventions. kwami ( talk) 10:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I've only heard of this being used in Scottish, and I don't even see an example of that in IPA_chart_for_English_dialects. I would guess that in 90% of cases the use of [r] in transcribing English sounds is flat out wrong from an IPA viewpoint. I'd like to see Wikipedia go by standard IPA and use [ɹ], rather than creating its own transcription for that sound; sure it would be more familiar to most English speakers, but considering that the transcriptions are given as phonemic rather than allophonic, I would think that these transcriptions are mostly used by people for whom the sounds of English might not be native, and would thus add an enormous amount of confusion. These conventions look fine in general; it's just the transcription of the English "r"-sound that sticks out like a sore thumb. I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know where I can talk about this (preferably on my talk page). Is there a talk page for the transcription of English somewhere? Theshibboleth ( talk) 01:33, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm on the verge of conceding this point--the two .edu links I checked for English transcription (The University of Arizona and the University of Iowa) give the sound as /r/; however I will point out that I am a linguistics student at UCLA (where Ladefoged once taught) and I have been taught in all my linguistics courses to transcribe the English r-sound as /ɹ/. I suspect that transcription of r as /ɹ/ is now or will soon be the standard in academics.
At a global level English r is from the sites I visited most often transcribed with /ɹ/ and Look for instance at [1] as well as the multiple translations of this page on other Wikipedias -- most of which give the phoneme as /ɹ/.
Also regarding "English students" knowing that English r is not a trill, that may be true, but only because they are students; Before I studied French or Spanish I had assumed that their r's were /ɹ/, and there is no reason to suspect that people from other language backgrounds would not assume that orthographic r had the same sound in English that it does in their own language--and what of speakers of languages that do not have an r-sound at all?
I was looking over WP:name and it appears that English language sources, as opposed to international standards, are favored, so I am going demonstrate support from English sources of /ɹ/ as standard. Here is an exercise from UCLA: [2].
Alright I must begrudgingly concede the point. I went over a number of journal articles, not in a particularly scientific manner, but nevertheless I could not find any support for the use of /ɹ/: [3], [4], [5], [6].
Nevertheless I certainly will use /ɹ/ in my own work, and doing so does not seem to me pedantic; doing otherwise suggests that [r] is the mother sound for /ɹ/ in various English dialects--this was what I had assumed when I saw this page, but I quickly learned otherwise. Theshibboleth ( talk) 02:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the bottom line of the table for reduced vowels have the barred u, not barred ʊ , to match the barred i three rows above? RoachPeter ( talk) 06:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to update the template at Blaa to {{ IPAc-en}}, which is given as /blæː/ under {{ IPA-en}}, but I'm not sure how to change the æː sound over to Wikipedia's conventions. Is it /eɪ/? Is this an omission, or is it just a problem with that page? 0x0077BE [ talk/ contrib] 19:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I think this article would find a better home in the main namespace. Aside from references to Wikipedia's transcription system, the content is pretty encyclopedic. Nardog ( talk) 23:12, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Currently, the article says that “[s]tress need not be included in the notation of a monosyllabic word since it is self-evident”. I seriously doubt that. I would rather think that there are some monosyllabic words that have inherent stress and others that do not, mainly function words such as “the” or “of”. Sources? -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 20:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
What does "WL" stand for? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.210.34.129 ( talk) 07:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Dear Editors,
On account of the fact that the pre-vocalic 'r' of rich is sounded in all varieties of English, and that the /ɹ/ symbol is not encountered in dictionaries of the language, and indeed rarely, if at all, outside technical literature on the subject, I humbly request that a slight modification be implemented within the 'consonants' section of the discussed help page, so as to provide it with the following appearance:
Consonants vary little between dictionaries. The ones which do are those in the words:
- char /r ~ (r) ~ ∅/;
- which, /ʍ ~ hw ~ (h)w ~ w/;
- and new, /juː ~ uː/.
Wikipedia editors have decided to go with /tʃɑːr/, /hwɪtʃ/, /njuː/ for these words.
A few dictionaries, such as dictionary.com, use "/y/" for /j/, which is at odds with the official IPA usage, which defines /y/ as close front rounded vowel (as in French tu or German über), and appears as such in transcriptions of French and German, as well as some dialects of English.
Yours faithfully,