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Someone could please include ɫ, ã, ẽ, ĩ, õ and ũ in the Asturian column? -- 85.152.77.59 ( talk) 19:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, there is little written on asturian phonology, so i only can give you the official grammar (Gramática de la llingua asturiana. 3ed. Uviéu : Academia de la Llingua Asturiana, 2001) that in pg. 24 states asturian vowels. Also I can give you some recordings of speakers where in certain recordings you can hear the dark l and the final nasal consonant. -- Saguzar1 ( talk) 12:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
In pg. 24 (copy and paste): - La vocal /a/ realízase [a� ] palatal en hachu, baxa, algaire; [a. ] velar en prau, xeláu; [a] media en falar, casa; [˜a] nasal en mano, mancar. - La vocal /e/ realízase [e. ] zarrada en conceyu, xente; [e� ] abierta en repla, pex; [ö] llabial en fueu, nocéu; [˜e] nasal en mena, neña. - La vocal /i/, pel so llau, presenta pronunciaciones como [i. ] zarrada en diximos, filu; [i�] abierta en esguil, risa; [˜ı] nasal en mina, inda; [j] semiconsonante en pioyu, mieu; [ i �] semivocal en coméi, algaire. - La vocal /o/ pronúnciase [o. ] zarrada en llocu, xostra; [o� ] abierta en xorra, voi; [˜o] nasal en monxa, ónde. - La vocal /u / realízase [u. ] zarrada en camuda, lluria; [u� ] abierta en murnia, turria; [ ˜u] nasal en munchos, punxo; [w] semiconsonante en fueya, güei; [u�] semivocal en pautu, aniciáu. On pg 42: d) [ l�] palatal cuando-y sigue una consonante palatar [ˆc], [y], [ � s], [�n] o [ l�]: colcha, el chinu, el yerbatu, álxebra, el xabón, el ñuedu, mal lladrón. So, you're right, that's not [ɫ]. However, the use of nasal vowels as allophones is clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saguzar1 ( talk • contribs) 23:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
By the way,I think ɖ should be included only in Asturian, as its area extends only in Ibias and Degaña, so I think is better having two rows, one for ɖ in Asturian, and another for ʈ͡ʂ, ɖ͡ʐ and t͡s in both Asturian and Leonese.(t͡s being the most common). I would like to do it, but i don't know how to do that.-- Saguzar1 ( talk) 23:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
1 - I've never heard of nasalized / ɨ/ in Portuguese, or that this sound would be truly [ ɨ in any contemporary Southwestern European language. And my reasoning is that Mirandese has these perceivabable phonetic differences from other Astur-Leonese dialects not because of its singularity but because of its influence from Portuguese.
2 - Similarly, stressed / ɐ/ is quite different from schwa / ɐ/ in European Portuguese (and to a little extent, few dialects of other Portugueses as well), and this is generally accepted in articles about Portuguese that usually respectively related them to / ʌ/ and / ə/ of North American English, and to / ɜː/ and / ə/ of British English, respectively (the reason why I made the distinction here similar to that of WP:IPA for Portuguese and Galician).
3 - I made this distinction with other purposes: I've heard that [ x is merged to / k/ in some or most English dialects, that the North American alveolar thingy is the opposite of the Iberian ones (I don't remember more which one is the flap or the tap) – and that it is also present in other dialects, but in different environments –, that some dialects velarize all their els, including many GA speakers, that as noted above some British and North American English phonemes that most closely relate to their West Iberian equivalents are used in different environments of this same language (but discussing it would be useless as in this case I completely agree that your examples were better than those of mine), as I searched in articles such as English phonology before my edits. Wouldn't it be useful rather than useless?
4 - In the next time me or someone else edit it, there is problem with using another example for dental / d/ instead of 'die'? It does not sound as our 'dái' (imperative 'give') to my years as dai ('big' in Japanese language), but rather more like an affricate, the same happening with / t/ (seriously, I am used to English). Lguipontes ( talk) 05:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
@ JaumeR: As you can see, I took liberty to cleanup this guide. However, there still are some things that are unclear to me, so I can't fix them (or even decide whether they need fixing or not):
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm from Asturias and I speak Asturian, I've never ever in my life heard anyone say those sounds, especially [ʁ], it's even difficult for me to pronounce that. Many Spanish speaker may say an [x] in "digno", but specifically Asturian speakers don't, I've always heard "dinu", "dinnu", most don't even pronounce the g. (And in the Diccionario General de la Lengua Asturiana it lists "dinu" as the recorded forms, not any "dignu"). Furthermore, the Portuguese version of this page doesn't have that. Also [h] isn't only a dialectal consonant (even though I don't understand that concept, since Mirandese, Asturian... etc. are all dialects themselves) [h] is present in various words from Asturian central dialect as well, such as guahe (kid), coñóholes (fuck!) or ihuhú (hooray!) Fueyo221 ( talk) 15:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This help page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Someone could please include ɫ, ã, ẽ, ĩ, õ and ũ in the Asturian column? -- 85.152.77.59 ( talk) 19:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, there is little written on asturian phonology, so i only can give you the official grammar (Gramática de la llingua asturiana. 3ed. Uviéu : Academia de la Llingua Asturiana, 2001) that in pg. 24 states asturian vowels. Also I can give you some recordings of speakers where in certain recordings you can hear the dark l and the final nasal consonant. -- Saguzar1 ( talk) 12:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
In pg. 24 (copy and paste): - La vocal /a/ realízase [a� ] palatal en hachu, baxa, algaire; [a. ] velar en prau, xeláu; [a] media en falar, casa; [˜a] nasal en mano, mancar. - La vocal /e/ realízase [e. ] zarrada en conceyu, xente; [e� ] abierta en repla, pex; [ö] llabial en fueu, nocéu; [˜e] nasal en mena, neña. - La vocal /i/, pel so llau, presenta pronunciaciones como [i. ] zarrada en diximos, filu; [i�] abierta en esguil, risa; [˜ı] nasal en mina, inda; [j] semiconsonante en pioyu, mieu; [ i �] semivocal en coméi, algaire. - La vocal /o/ pronúnciase [o. ] zarrada en llocu, xostra; [o� ] abierta en xorra, voi; [˜o] nasal en monxa, ónde. - La vocal /u / realízase [u. ] zarrada en camuda, lluria; [u� ] abierta en murnia, turria; [ ˜u] nasal en munchos, punxo; [w] semiconsonante en fueya, güei; [u�] semivocal en pautu, aniciáu. On pg 42: d) [ l�] palatal cuando-y sigue una consonante palatar [ˆc], [y], [ � s], [�n] o [ l�]: colcha, el chinu, el yerbatu, álxebra, el xabón, el ñuedu, mal lladrón. So, you're right, that's not [ɫ]. However, the use of nasal vowels as allophones is clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saguzar1 ( talk • contribs) 23:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
By the way,I think ɖ should be included only in Asturian, as its area extends only in Ibias and Degaña, so I think is better having two rows, one for ɖ in Asturian, and another for ʈ͡ʂ, ɖ͡ʐ and t͡s in both Asturian and Leonese.(t͡s being the most common). I would like to do it, but i don't know how to do that.-- Saguzar1 ( talk) 23:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
1 - I've never heard of nasalized / ɨ/ in Portuguese, or that this sound would be truly [ ɨ in any contemporary Southwestern European language. And my reasoning is that Mirandese has these perceivabable phonetic differences from other Astur-Leonese dialects not because of its singularity but because of its influence from Portuguese.
2 - Similarly, stressed / ɐ/ is quite different from schwa / ɐ/ in European Portuguese (and to a little extent, few dialects of other Portugueses as well), and this is generally accepted in articles about Portuguese that usually respectively related them to / ʌ/ and / ə/ of North American English, and to / ɜː/ and / ə/ of British English, respectively (the reason why I made the distinction here similar to that of WP:IPA for Portuguese and Galician).
3 - I made this distinction with other purposes: I've heard that [ x is merged to / k/ in some or most English dialects, that the North American alveolar thingy is the opposite of the Iberian ones (I don't remember more which one is the flap or the tap) – and that it is also present in other dialects, but in different environments –, that some dialects velarize all their els, including many GA speakers, that as noted above some British and North American English phonemes that most closely relate to their West Iberian equivalents are used in different environments of this same language (but discussing it would be useless as in this case I completely agree that your examples were better than those of mine), as I searched in articles such as English phonology before my edits. Wouldn't it be useful rather than useless?
4 - In the next time me or someone else edit it, there is problem with using another example for dental / d/ instead of 'die'? It does not sound as our 'dái' (imperative 'give') to my years as dai ('big' in Japanese language), but rather more like an affricate, the same happening with / t/ (seriously, I am used to English). Lguipontes ( talk) 05:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
@ JaumeR: As you can see, I took liberty to cleanup this guide. However, there still are some things that are unclear to me, so I can't fix them (or even decide whether they need fixing or not):
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm from Asturias and I speak Asturian, I've never ever in my life heard anyone say those sounds, especially [ʁ], it's even difficult for me to pronounce that. Many Spanish speaker may say an [x] in "digno", but specifically Asturian speakers don't, I've always heard "dinu", "dinnu", most don't even pronounce the g. (And in the Diccionario General de la Lengua Asturiana it lists "dinu" as the recorded forms, not any "dignu"). Furthermore, the Portuguese version of this page doesn't have that. Also [h] isn't only a dialectal consonant (even though I don't understand that concept, since Mirandese, Asturian... etc. are all dialects themselves) [h] is present in various words from Asturian central dialect as well, such as guahe (kid), coñóholes (fuck!) or ihuhú (hooray!) Fueyo221 ( talk) 15:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)