There are some parts of this map that may need some work. Most of the information was taken off of the Euratlas map of Europe in 1200 AD, as well as maps available on Wikipedia or found via Google. There were some Kingdoms in West Africa around this time (I believe it was the Huasa?), and I'm not very confident in the Central Asian borders, specifically Kara Kitai and the Uyghurs. Also I believe the borders for Kashmir may be off. If you have any information available, please email me at talessman@yis.us, or reply on this page. Thomas Lessman 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
The Tatars are shown in the east of Mongolia on your map for 1100, but they are somewhere around the Sayan mountains or Tuva on your map for 1200. I thought I missed such a movement when I was reading the books, so I checked again. The Tatars were chased by Jin Dynasty warlord to the river Ulz in 1190s. This is Northeast of Khentei aimag ("province") and north of Dornod aimag. Then Temujin and Tooril Khan defeated them at Serven Khaalga in Bayanhutag soum (district), to the south of the centre of Khentei aimag. Later, Temujin fought the rest of the Tatars at Dalan Nemurge. Judging by the name of the site, I suppose it's the river Nömrög (Classical spelling is Nömurge), at the eastmost corner of Mongolia. So I think they didn't move to the northwest by 1200 but stayed in the east.
The Taichiud were at the north of the Mongols.
The Merkits were around the northern border of nowadays Mongolia. Later they were chased to Bargujin, around nowadays city Irkutsk in Russia.
The west and east coasts of the Lake Baikal were always populated by Hori Tumet (Buryat). This is important, because Alun-Goo, pro-mother of the Borjigin clan came from there. Her family was moving from Bargujin southwards into modern Mongolia where she met her future husband.
You have shown “Tuvans”. Are you sure that an ethnic group existed under this name in the 12th-13th centuries.
Gantuya eng (
talk)
03:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent feedback guys, and I'll definitely fix this and upload the correction soon. Thank you for pointing out my mistake! Thomas Lessman ( talk) 15:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thomas, it would be great if you were able to go into more detail in this area at this and other periods. The tribes that inhabited that region were distinct political entities and pretty interesting. Where "Tuvans" are listed, you might also want to put "Kyrgyz" as the Yenisey Kyrgyz were nominally running things there, but the Tuvan ethnic group definitely existed at that time too. Salmoxis ( talk) 06:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
All bounaries North from Pereyaslavl (you are signing it Pereyslav, it is wrong name) have very, very large distorsions. And you, dear Thomas, can find a lot of differences with source map from Euratlas. I hope this distorsions (up to 500 km, what will be if Paris moves to Amsterdam?) are from your private technical problems, not from based on your private opinion boundaries shift. Any private opinions can be placed at discussion pages in WP, not in articles. Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 18:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Yakuts origin is not at Baikal? You moved Yakuts to the down Ob river - it is 2,500 km shift (as Lisbon moved to Copenhagen). Even if it is technical (technology) problem, such kind of map can not be reliable source and can not be used in WP. You need check your work and after that publish it. Every map has errors, it's true, but not such errors, if it is map... Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 18:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Well Bogomolov, if I took the tone of your post the wrong way then I apologize, but it seemed accusatory and negative to me, compared to comments by other editors. If you do feel my borders are incorrect or inaccurate, please copy the map to your computer, then re-draw the borders as you believe they should be. Use red borders to distinguish between the original (black) borders I created. I can then re-draw the borders on the original map and upload a corrected version. I'd be happy to list you as one of the people who helped me correct the map, as I have no problem giving credit where it's due. The last thing I want to do is give people wrong information! Respectfully, Thomas Lessman ( talk) 15:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 16:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
WOW Bogomolov, great job! How did you transform the Euratlas map to a Mercator map? I had to actually look at the Euratlas map and draw the borders on my map by hand, trying to get the location as close as possible. Do you have a better way of doing that? I honestly have no idea of how to transform from the type of map that Euratlas uses, to the type of map I'm using. It leaves me looking at some geographical features that don't seem right, so I have to use my best efforts. I can see that I'm not TOO far off on some borders, pretty accurate on others, but way off on borders for places like Russia (which is exactly what you had pointed out).
So how did you transform the Euratlas map to a Mercator map? Please be advised that I have noticed some minor errors in Euratlas maps (nothing TOO big), and for borders in places like Africa, they and I have minor disagreements. But still, they make a great source for information. Thank you Bogomolov, and when I get the answers to my questions, I'll happily correct all the maps where we see errors. Respectfully, Thomas Lessman ( talk) 17:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for pointing out the differences, Bogomolov. I'm currently looking into ways I can reconcile the differences and correct the inaccuracies. I don't have access to good cartography software like you have, instead I've been using Adobe PhotoShop, and I'm currently looking into how I can distort the Euratlas maps to fit the base geography of the Mercator maps I'm using. It might take some time for me to figure it out, but I do appreciate your observations and your work in showing me how I was incorrect. If you get some more free time and feel like checking the other maps I've put up, please do so. I really appreciate your help on these maps! Respectfully, Thomas Lessman ( talk) 23:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure yet, it depends on whichever one is easier to do in PhotoShop. Don't get me wrong, PhotoShop is a great program, but I think your cartography software is probably much better for mapping purposes. I'm looking over your recommendations to see if there's a way for me to do that in PhotoShop; I'm sure there probably is, but it's a pretty complicated program, and there's a lot I don't know about it yet. Thomas Lessman ( talk) 18:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I recieved info late last week that my information on "Mali" in West Africa is incorrect. Bruce Gordon, author of the incredible "Regnal Chronologies" site ( http://starnarcosis.net/obsidian/regindex.html) emailed me to let me know that Mali actually didn't exist as an empire yet (not until circa 1240 AD). It currently was part of the "Sosso Empire", which itself was a remnant of the older Empire of Ghana (I believe I wrote that correctly!).
I definitely appreciate Bruce's work and any information he sends my way. I've made a correction to the map in that regards, and will upload the corrected version soon. Thomas Lessman ( talk) 01:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
There are some differences in North African borders between my East-Hem_1200ad.jpg map and the map I used as reference, the Euratlas map of Europe in 1200 AD.
Primarily, my map shows the Almohades and Ayyubbids controling slightly more land than the Euratlas maps show. The reason is because the East-Hem maps show physical geography (like mountains and elevated lands) and the Euratlas maps don't. Thus, I extend their lands to the nearest logical extent based on physical geography. Also I've seen plenty of other maps showing the Almohades had more territory than is shown on the Euratlas maps, so I went with the other maps on those borders. Thomas Lessman 17:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi!
The borders of Sweden, Norway and Denmark are a bit off in this map. The Finnish part of Sweden did not span across Karelia to the White Sea, and Norway is too short.
Anyway, this is a good and accurate map source for Scandinavian countries. Hope it helps! -- ざくら木 16:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have some errors with Estonian territory. First, what exactly is supposed to be this Tarbatu? Tarbatu is an Estonian town (2nd biggest), today known as Tartu. It has never been a separate country and has been separated from the rest of Estonia (or rest of southern Estonia) only from 1030-1061, when it was held by Russians. Therefore you should remove this area and the name Tarbatu. Estes are known as Estonians, and should stand so on the map. Also, neither Estonians or Livonians had their own country, so the borders should be removed. The first real borders in the northern Baltics appeared, when Denmark captured northern Estonia and the Livonian Confederation was created to compromise the semi-independent Livonian Order and Bishoprics of Dorpat, Ösel-Wiek, Riga and Courland (as seen here [1]). H2ppyme ( talk) 14:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Where are the Chud Zavolochskaya, the Komi and the Principality of Great Perm??? They were independent and did not belong to Samoyeds, Bulgaria or Novgorod at that time. Also, Yakuts never lived that far to the West, they lived near the Baikal lake. СЛУЖБА ( talk) 05:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Volga Bulgaria was Islamic. СЛУЖБА ( talk) 06:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
There are some parts of this map that may need some work. Most of the information was taken off of the Euratlas map of Europe in 1200 AD, as well as maps available on Wikipedia or found via Google. There were some Kingdoms in West Africa around this time (I believe it was the Huasa?), and I'm not very confident in the Central Asian borders, specifically Kara Kitai and the Uyghurs. Also I believe the borders for Kashmir may be off. If you have any information available, please email me at talessman@yis.us, or reply on this page. Thomas Lessman 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
The Tatars are shown in the east of Mongolia on your map for 1100, but they are somewhere around the Sayan mountains or Tuva on your map for 1200. I thought I missed such a movement when I was reading the books, so I checked again. The Tatars were chased by Jin Dynasty warlord to the river Ulz in 1190s. This is Northeast of Khentei aimag ("province") and north of Dornod aimag. Then Temujin and Tooril Khan defeated them at Serven Khaalga in Bayanhutag soum (district), to the south of the centre of Khentei aimag. Later, Temujin fought the rest of the Tatars at Dalan Nemurge. Judging by the name of the site, I suppose it's the river Nömrög (Classical spelling is Nömurge), at the eastmost corner of Mongolia. So I think they didn't move to the northwest by 1200 but stayed in the east.
The Taichiud were at the north of the Mongols.
The Merkits were around the northern border of nowadays Mongolia. Later they were chased to Bargujin, around nowadays city Irkutsk in Russia.
The west and east coasts of the Lake Baikal were always populated by Hori Tumet (Buryat). This is important, because Alun-Goo, pro-mother of the Borjigin clan came from there. Her family was moving from Bargujin southwards into modern Mongolia where she met her future husband.
You have shown “Tuvans”. Are you sure that an ethnic group existed under this name in the 12th-13th centuries.
Gantuya eng (
talk)
03:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent feedback guys, and I'll definitely fix this and upload the correction soon. Thank you for pointing out my mistake! Thomas Lessman ( talk) 15:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thomas, it would be great if you were able to go into more detail in this area at this and other periods. The tribes that inhabited that region were distinct political entities and pretty interesting. Where "Tuvans" are listed, you might also want to put "Kyrgyz" as the Yenisey Kyrgyz were nominally running things there, but the Tuvan ethnic group definitely existed at that time too. Salmoxis ( talk) 06:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
All bounaries North from Pereyaslavl (you are signing it Pereyslav, it is wrong name) have very, very large distorsions. And you, dear Thomas, can find a lot of differences with source map from Euratlas. I hope this distorsions (up to 500 km, what will be if Paris moves to Amsterdam?) are from your private technical problems, not from based on your private opinion boundaries shift. Any private opinions can be placed at discussion pages in WP, not in articles. Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 18:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Yakuts origin is not at Baikal? You moved Yakuts to the down Ob river - it is 2,500 km shift (as Lisbon moved to Copenhagen). Even if it is technical (technology) problem, such kind of map can not be reliable source and can not be used in WP. You need check your work and after that publish it. Every map has errors, it's true, but not such errors, if it is map... Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 18:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Well Bogomolov, if I took the tone of your post the wrong way then I apologize, but it seemed accusatory and negative to me, compared to comments by other editors. If you do feel my borders are incorrect or inaccurate, please copy the map to your computer, then re-draw the borders as you believe they should be. Use red borders to distinguish between the original (black) borders I created. I can then re-draw the borders on the original map and upload a corrected version. I'd be happy to list you as one of the people who helped me correct the map, as I have no problem giving credit where it's due. The last thing I want to do is give people wrong information! Respectfully, Thomas Lessman ( talk) 15:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 16:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
WOW Bogomolov, great job! How did you transform the Euratlas map to a Mercator map? I had to actually look at the Euratlas map and draw the borders on my map by hand, trying to get the location as close as possible. Do you have a better way of doing that? I honestly have no idea of how to transform from the type of map that Euratlas uses, to the type of map I'm using. It leaves me looking at some geographical features that don't seem right, so I have to use my best efforts. I can see that I'm not TOO far off on some borders, pretty accurate on others, but way off on borders for places like Russia (which is exactly what you had pointed out).
So how did you transform the Euratlas map to a Mercator map? Please be advised that I have noticed some minor errors in Euratlas maps (nothing TOO big), and for borders in places like Africa, they and I have minor disagreements. But still, they make a great source for information. Thank you Bogomolov, and when I get the answers to my questions, I'll happily correct all the maps where we see errors. Respectfully, Thomas Lessman ( talk) 17:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for pointing out the differences, Bogomolov. I'm currently looking into ways I can reconcile the differences and correct the inaccuracies. I don't have access to good cartography software like you have, instead I've been using Adobe PhotoShop, and I'm currently looking into how I can distort the Euratlas maps to fit the base geography of the Mercator maps I'm using. It might take some time for me to figure it out, but I do appreciate your observations and your work in showing me how I was incorrect. If you get some more free time and feel like checking the other maps I've put up, please do so. I really appreciate your help on these maps! Respectfully, Thomas Lessman ( talk) 23:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure yet, it depends on whichever one is easier to do in PhotoShop. Don't get me wrong, PhotoShop is a great program, but I think your cartography software is probably much better for mapping purposes. I'm looking over your recommendations to see if there's a way for me to do that in PhotoShop; I'm sure there probably is, but it's a pretty complicated program, and there's a lot I don't know about it yet. Thomas Lessman ( talk) 18:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I recieved info late last week that my information on "Mali" in West Africa is incorrect. Bruce Gordon, author of the incredible "Regnal Chronologies" site ( http://starnarcosis.net/obsidian/regindex.html) emailed me to let me know that Mali actually didn't exist as an empire yet (not until circa 1240 AD). It currently was part of the "Sosso Empire", which itself was a remnant of the older Empire of Ghana (I believe I wrote that correctly!).
I definitely appreciate Bruce's work and any information he sends my way. I've made a correction to the map in that regards, and will upload the corrected version soon. Thomas Lessman ( talk) 01:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
There are some differences in North African borders between my East-Hem_1200ad.jpg map and the map I used as reference, the Euratlas map of Europe in 1200 AD.
Primarily, my map shows the Almohades and Ayyubbids controling slightly more land than the Euratlas maps show. The reason is because the East-Hem maps show physical geography (like mountains and elevated lands) and the Euratlas maps don't. Thus, I extend their lands to the nearest logical extent based on physical geography. Also I've seen plenty of other maps showing the Almohades had more territory than is shown on the Euratlas maps, so I went with the other maps on those borders. Thomas Lessman 17:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi!
The borders of Sweden, Norway and Denmark are a bit off in this map. The Finnish part of Sweden did not span across Karelia to the White Sea, and Norway is too short.
Anyway, this is a good and accurate map source for Scandinavian countries. Hope it helps! -- ざくら木 16:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have some errors with Estonian territory. First, what exactly is supposed to be this Tarbatu? Tarbatu is an Estonian town (2nd biggest), today known as Tartu. It has never been a separate country and has been separated from the rest of Estonia (or rest of southern Estonia) only from 1030-1061, when it was held by Russians. Therefore you should remove this area and the name Tarbatu. Estes are known as Estonians, and should stand so on the map. Also, neither Estonians or Livonians had their own country, so the borders should be removed. The first real borders in the northern Baltics appeared, when Denmark captured northern Estonia and the Livonian Confederation was created to compromise the semi-independent Livonian Order and Bishoprics of Dorpat, Ösel-Wiek, Riga and Courland (as seen here [1]). H2ppyme ( talk) 14:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Where are the Chud Zavolochskaya, the Komi and the Principality of Great Perm??? They were independent and did not belong to Samoyeds, Bulgaria or Novgorod at that time. Also, Yakuts never lived that far to the West, they lived near the Baikal lake. СЛУЖБА ( talk) 05:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Volga Bulgaria was Islamic. СЛУЖБА ( talk) 06:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)