(Redirected from
Draft talk:Casualties of the 2023 Israel鈥揌amas war)
 | Controversy regarding the number of Palestinian casualties in the 2023 Israel鈥揌amas war was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 26 January 2024 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Casualties of the Israel鈥揌amas war. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
 | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
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In the current article it says that 186,000 Palestinians may die according to the numbers in the Lancet. However, the text in the Lancet says that 186,000 may be dead, not that they may die in the future. Centurion Ernith ( talk) 03:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's how it should be interpreted, see the preceding context:
Even if the conflict ends immediately, there will continue to be many indirect deaths in the coming months and years [...]
. - The main discussion is
here. 鈥
xDanielx
T/
C\
R
05:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've also opened a discussion at RSN: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli ( talk | contribs) 02:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
"At least 5 per cent of the population in Gaza had been killed, severely injured or missing."
Is different from what is on the Wikipedia page: "at least 5% of Gaza's population has been killed, maimed or injured."
1. The source is being misquoted.
2. Missing figures should not be so prominent in a page about casualties. Undated ( talk) 14:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- 6,400 people missing for several months, a large percentage undoubtedly under the rubble, valiantly strutting through which the IDF troops complain of the stench, of dogs with arms between their teeth, birds pecking on legs sticking disjointedly out from under collapsed masses of concrete, of road-cleaning IDF bulldozers shovelling them up whenever press or Red Cross visitors are accompanied, to make sure that, dumped on the side under dust and debris, they won't be visible that day, potential eyesores that spoil the Potemkin neatness of the roads burrowing through the jungle of 37 million tons of a wrecked and ransacked world. We are talking about the unburied, who are, in any man's language, casualties.
Nishidani (
talk)
16:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because the last missing number reports from PCD (10,000) and MOH (7,000) are now 3 months old, it's impossible to know how many are still missing versus already included in July killed/injured numbers. But the 5% figure is roughly accurate without including missing anyway, depending on the count and pre-war baseline used. Caution re: tone. GordonGlottal ( talk) 17:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- 6,400 people missing for several months, a large percentage undoubtedly under the rubble, valiantly strutting through which the IDF troops complain of the stench, of dogs with arms between their teeth, birds pecking on legs sticking disjointedly out from under collapsed masses of concrete, of road-cleaning IDF bulldozers shovelling them up whenever press or Red Cross visitors are accompanied, to make sure that, dumped on the side under dust and debris, they won't be visible that day, potential eyesores that spoil the Potemkin neatness of the roads burrowing through the jungle of 37 million tons of a wrecked and ransacked world. We are talking about the unburied, who are, in any man's language, casualties.
Nishidani (
talk)
16:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The UN analysis is not well represented, i think quotes like this would clarify their assessment of the situation: "The overwhelming nature and scale of Israel鈥檚 assault on Gaza and the destructive conditions of life it has inflicted reveal an intent to physically destroy Palestinians as a group. "
"Genocidal acts were approved and given effect following statements of genocidal intent issued by senior military and government officials."
"Israel鈥檚 genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza is an escalatory stage of a longstanding settler colonial process of erasure. For over seven decades this process has suffocated the Palestinian people as a group 鈥 demographically, culturally, economically and politically 鈥, seeking to displace it and expropriate and control its land and resources."
source: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/ 84.115.225.35 ( talk) 20:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please read 'WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES' at the top of the page. You are only permitted to make a specific edit request for the article, please supply a citation if you do so.
NadVolum (
talk)
20:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure.
- Current version:
- Reactions and analysis
- Both Israel and Hamas have been accused of committing war crimes. South Africa accused Israel of committing genocide in a case it brought before the International Court of Justice. In a set of preliminary rulings, the court found that the Palestinians rights under the genocide convention were plausibly in danger but did not rule on whether genocide was plausibly happening. In June 2024, a UN Commission of Inquiry found the scale of Israel's killing of Palestinians constituted a crime against humanity. Marwan Bishara, the senior political analyst at Al Jazeera English, argued that Israel's military campaign aimed to "eliminate anything that walks or breathes in Gaza".
- Suggested extension:
- Reactions and analysis
- Both Israel and Hamas have been accused of committing war crimes.
- South-Africa genocide case
- South Africa accused Israel of committing genocide in a case it brought before the International Court of Justice. In a set of preliminary rulings, the court found that the Palestinians rights under the genocide convention were plausibly in danger but did not rule on whether genocide was plausibly happening.
- UN Assessment
- In June 2024, a UN Commission of Inquiry found the scale of Israel's killing of Palestinians constituted a crime against humanity. Marwan Bishara, the senior political analyst at Al Jazeera English, argued that Israel's military campaign aimed to "eliminate anything that walks or breathes in Gaza".
- The UN report contains the following statements, outlining their analysis of the ongoing conflict:
- "The overwhelming nature and scale of Israel鈥檚 assault on Gaza and the destructive conditions of life it has inflicted reveal an intent to physically destroy Palestinians as a group. "
- "Genocidal acts were approved and given effect following statements of genocidal intent issued by senior military and government officials."
- "Israel鈥檚 genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza is an escalatory stage of a longstanding settler colonial process of erasure. For over seven decades this process has suffocated the Palestinian people as a group 鈥 demographically, culturally, economically and politically 鈥, seeking to displace it and expropriate and control its land and resources."
- And somehow the link to https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/ 84.115.225.35 ( talk) 09:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- In light of these facts, it is entirely disingenuous to refer to this genocide as "the Israel-Hamas war." The International Court of Justice has ruled the state of Israel has failed to disprove "plausible intent to commit genocide" and ordered Israel immediately cease all attacks upon Gaza and the West Bank in January 2024, which they have not. ( https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454) If the highest international court would call this a plausible genocide instead of a war, why does this article not reflect that? Vovbv ( talk) 05:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe that, at least in those situations where sources indicate exactly how many women and how many children died, there is no point in lumping them together into the vague 鈥渨omen and children.鈥 What does 52% women and children mean? 32% children and 20% women are both clearer and less benevolently-sexist. Reprarina ( talk) 21:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
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(Redirected from
Draft talk:Casualties of the 2023 Israel鈥揌amas war)
| Controversy regarding the number of Palestinian casualties in the 2023 Israel鈥揌amas war was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 26 January 2024 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Casualties of the Israel鈥揌amas war. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
|
| Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Casualties of the Israel鈥揌amas war article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources:聽 Google ( books聽路 news聽路 scholar聽路 free images聽路 WP聽refs)聽路 FENS聽路 JSTOR聽路 TWL |
|
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 20聽days聽
|
| While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
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In the current article it says that 186,000 Palestinians may die according to the numbers in the Lancet. However, the text in the Lancet says that 186,000 may be dead, not that they may die in the future. Centurion Ernith ( talk) 03:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's how it should be interpreted, see the preceding context:
Even if the conflict ends immediately, there will continue to be many indirect deaths in the coming months and years [...]
. - The main discussion is
here. 鈥
xDanielx
T/
C\
R
05:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've also opened a discussion at RSN: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli ( talk | contribs) 02:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
"At least 5 per cent of the population in Gaza had been killed, severely injured or missing."
Is different from what is on the Wikipedia page: "at least 5% of Gaza's population has been killed, maimed or injured."
1. The source is being misquoted.
2. Missing figures should not be so prominent in a page about casualties. Undated ( talk) 14:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- 6,400 people missing for several months, a large percentage undoubtedly under the rubble, valiantly strutting through which the IDF troops complain of the stench, of dogs with arms between their teeth, birds pecking on legs sticking disjointedly out from under collapsed masses of concrete, of road-cleaning IDF bulldozers shovelling them up whenever press or Red Cross visitors are accompanied, to make sure that, dumped on the side under dust and debris, they won't be visible that day, potential eyesores that spoil the Potemkin neatness of the roads burrowing through the jungle of 37 million tons of a wrecked and ransacked world. We are talking about the unburied, who are, in any man's language, casualties.
Nishidani (
talk)
16:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because the last missing number reports from PCD (10,000) and MOH (7,000) are now 3 months old, it's impossible to know how many are still missing versus already included in July killed/injured numbers. But the 5% figure is roughly accurate without including missing anyway, depending on the count and pre-war baseline used. Caution re: tone. GordonGlottal ( talk) 17:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- 6,400 people missing for several months, a large percentage undoubtedly under the rubble, valiantly strutting through which the IDF troops complain of the stench, of dogs with arms between their teeth, birds pecking on legs sticking disjointedly out from under collapsed masses of concrete, of road-cleaning IDF bulldozers shovelling them up whenever press or Red Cross visitors are accompanied, to make sure that, dumped on the side under dust and debris, they won't be visible that day, potential eyesores that spoil the Potemkin neatness of the roads burrowing through the jungle of 37 million tons of a wrecked and ransacked world. We are talking about the unburied, who are, in any man's language, casualties.
Nishidani (
talk)
16:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The UN analysis is not well represented, i think quotes like this would clarify their assessment of the situation: "The overwhelming nature and scale of Israel鈥檚 assault on Gaza and the destructive conditions of life it has inflicted reveal an intent to physically destroy Palestinians as a group. "
"Genocidal acts were approved and given effect following statements of genocidal intent issued by senior military and government officials."
"Israel鈥檚 genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza is an escalatory stage of a longstanding settler colonial process of erasure. For over seven decades this process has suffocated the Palestinian people as a group 鈥 demographically, culturally, economically and politically 鈥, seeking to displace it and expropriate and control its land and resources."
source: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/ 84.115.225.35 ( talk) 20:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please read 'WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES' at the top of the page. You are only permitted to make a specific edit request for the article, please supply a citation if you do so.
NadVolum (
talk)
20:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure.
- Current version:
- Reactions and analysis
- Both Israel and Hamas have been accused of committing war crimes. South Africa accused Israel of committing genocide in a case it brought before the International Court of Justice. In a set of preliminary rulings, the court found that the Palestinians rights under the genocide convention were plausibly in danger but did not rule on whether genocide was plausibly happening. In June 2024, a UN Commission of Inquiry found the scale of Israel's killing of Palestinians constituted a crime against humanity. Marwan Bishara, the senior political analyst at Al Jazeera English, argued that Israel's military campaign aimed to "eliminate anything that walks or breathes in Gaza".
- Suggested extension:
- Reactions and analysis
- Both Israel and Hamas have been accused of committing war crimes.
- South-Africa genocide case
- South Africa accused Israel of committing genocide in a case it brought before the International Court of Justice. In a set of preliminary rulings, the court found that the Palestinians rights under the genocide convention were plausibly in danger but did not rule on whether genocide was plausibly happening.
- UN Assessment
- In June 2024, a UN Commission of Inquiry found the scale of Israel's killing of Palestinians constituted a crime against humanity. Marwan Bishara, the senior political analyst at Al Jazeera English, argued that Israel's military campaign aimed to "eliminate anything that walks or breathes in Gaza".
- The UN report contains the following statements, outlining their analysis of the ongoing conflict:
- "The overwhelming nature and scale of Israel鈥檚 assault on Gaza and the destructive conditions of life it has inflicted reveal an intent to physically destroy Palestinians as a group. "
- "Genocidal acts were approved and given effect following statements of genocidal intent issued by senior military and government officials."
- "Israel鈥檚 genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza is an escalatory stage of a longstanding settler colonial process of erasure. For over seven decades this process has suffocated the Palestinian people as a group 鈥 demographically, culturally, economically and politically 鈥, seeking to displace it and expropriate and control its land and resources."
- And somehow the link to https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/ 84.115.225.35 ( talk) 09:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- In light of these facts, it is entirely disingenuous to refer to this genocide as "the Israel-Hamas war." The International Court of Justice has ruled the state of Israel has failed to disprove "plausible intent to commit genocide" and ordered Israel immediately cease all attacks upon Gaza and the West Bank in January 2024, which they have not. ( https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454) If the highest international court would call this a plausible genocide instead of a war, why does this article not reflect that? Vovbv ( talk) 05:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe that, at least in those situations where sources indicate exactly how many women and how many children died, there is no point in lumping them together into the vague 鈥渨omen and children.鈥 What does 52% women and children mean? 32% children and 20% women are both clearer and less benevolently-sexist. Reprarina ( talk) 21:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Categories:
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- Mid-importance Death articles
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