This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
We need to establish a clear and consistent policy regarding what is or is not categorized as a cult in Wikipedia. That is, which articles get this category tag, and which do not, and why. -- Serge 18:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV solution is to put those movements for which there is not a consensus of sources claiming they're cults in the "Alleged cults" category. It's a major POV violation to brand something definitively with a "Cult" tag when there are sources that disagree. RJII 15:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
"A cult is a group of like-minded people who seek to change the way individuals feel about one key or several key philosophical issues. A religion nothing more than a cult that have made it." - My definition, by Jack (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I put a POV tag on this article. Someone needs to go through and make sure everything in the list can be asserted as Cults. If there is disagreement among sources then it's a clear violation of NPOV policy to present them definitively as Cults. When sources disagree, the proper location for them would be under "Alleged cults." RJII 15:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I've been heavily critical on Wikipedia of certain religious movements with charismatic, authoritarian, abusive leaders, I'd be very hesitant to put many of them in this category due to NPOV issues. Consider these criteria from WP:CG:
These NPOV considerations apply particularly, IMO, to:
Do these concerns make sense to other editors? cheers, Jim Butler( talk) 07:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
To sidestep the issue of 'what is the cult' and reduce redunancy, I'm going to try out a restructuring of the category into a 'meta category' (in other words dealing with topics about cults rather than becoming a list). Organizations that have been called cults in media, government reports and academic research will be moved to List of groups referred to as cults, researchers about cults to a List of cult researchers, etc. and guidelines added to the article to make it clear where to put new articles in the category. If labeling of a group can't meet the criteria listed over at List of groups referred to as cults, I think that it probably shouldn't be called a cult. The current category takes the kitchen sink approach: anyone who wants to apply the cult label can do so. Antonrojo 22:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like you are simply removing entries from the category. If a group is included in List of groups referred to as cults, and there is mention of cult charges on the article page, then it should be in the category. This proposal isn't satisfactory. - Will Beback 01:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've done some reading on the subject and realized that there is fair amount of uncertainty around the proper purpose of categories. For general reference, here are a few of those links:
One thing that puzzled me a little was this statement from Wikipedia:Categorization: "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." A literal reading of this rule suggests that categories founded on at least partially subjective criteria, such as Category:Cults should have few if any items because there are really no criteria to prove that a group is 'at conflict with larger society' and 'has novel religious view', to take two examples from the cults list, in a way that is 'self-evident and uncontroversial.' Consensus on including an item is not enough for an item to be 'self-evident' which is defined as 'requiring no proof or explanation'.
Anyhow, in my opinion, including only cults in the category is tantamount to making it a list. Downsides of using a category for this instead of a list include: 1) the fact that the tag can be applied without reading its criteria--presumably this could be corrected by editors watching the category however, 2) watching a category for changes is much more difficult than watching a list. When a new article gets added to a category there is no notice so that editors notice it only if they regularly check the category and don't mind sifting through a long list of items or use a tool other than the watchlist, 3) the rationale for adding items to a list is visible both in edit comments and the talk page while for categories this requires backtracking. Similarly, the rationale can be directly integrated into the list, as is the case with List of groups referred to as cults. Antonrojo 17:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This is what I wrote on the WP:CfD page:
Here is my response to Glen on the WP:CfD page
For all the above reasons, including the fact that 'cult' is a word to avoid on Wikipedia, IMHO "cult" is a word that is inappropriate to use in category names. That is not to say it should not be used in articles themselves as per WP:WTA, i.e. where it is clear from the context how and why the label has been used and by whom. Perhaps "Category:Controversial religious groups" would be an acceptable alternative, since it would cover most if not all of the subject matter currently under "Catergory:Cults" without the POV problems -- the existence of controversy surrounding a group is a more objective criteria and something on which it is possible to achieve consensus on even with "cult apologists". Really Spooky 19:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus here to change the purpose of this category. I have deleted the new criteria added by Antonrojo. Please get agreement before changing it again. - Will Beback 22:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
(reset tab) I'm adding back the criteria and I'm interested on suggested changes to it. The 'removal of groups' what Will is referring to was an effort to migrate them over to List of cults which has some criteria for determining what a cult is. The subcategory approach that Dr U has taken instead is a good alternative for organizing the category. The second 'cleanup' issue was related to a lack of criteria for labeling groups as cults. The list of cults has a specified criteria for this, and the current alternative, labeling them as 'alleged cults' works as well.
The term 'alleged' is WP:AWW without some criteria for determining which sources are legitimate for these allegations (alleged by whom?), as well as providing a cite to them. Unfortunately categories, unlike articles, don't allow editors to add references to added items and are harder to police because changes don't show up on watchlists. Maybe someone could tweak this approach to better deal with the problems of creating and policing a criteria for whether a group is a cult. A first rough draft of criteria is at Category:Alleged_cults. Antonrojo 14:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
This reminds me over the arguments about what is a planet. Very scientific indeed. Cough! Note however that Encarta uses this word as well [8]. I think I will create a category for "controversial terms". Kmarinas86 01:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
To tie in with the article List of groups referred to as cults as well as to remove any percieved POV/bias.
What do people think? Sfacets 03:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't seem to find the CfD discussion. Did it really happen? I go to the link above and there doesn't seem to be a Cults entry. -- Tbeatty 05:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The CfD was closed with a "nealry consensus to keep". I would understand that by saying that there is no consensus to keep, hence it needs to be deleted. I have asked the closing admin to clarify. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Per prior discussion I placed most of the articles in category Cults into subcategories. There seemed to be agreement that something needed to be done. There didn't seem to be agreement on how to accomplish the tasks, so I used an amalgamization of ideas previously suggested, and thought up a few of my own. I think we can all agree it is tidier. I doubt there will be universal agreement that it is better. Let the bitching begin. Dr U 05:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that migrating members of Category:Cult leaders over to Category:Leaders of alleged cults makes sense. Feedback? Antonrojo 17:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the CfD was "nearly a consensus to keep". That means in my book, that there is no consensus to keep. If there was such consensus the closing admin would have said so. I have asked clarification from the clsoing admin. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that items on this list should be migrated over to List of groups referred to as cults based on WP policy [9] [10] and the latter states that "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category" and the other cite basically states that the term should be avoided unless it is defined in a strict academic sense. Moving these cases over to that list also seems to be supported by consensus, both in comments in the talk page, and the recent CfD for this category. If this category is to be retained, it should be a 'cult topics' category, in name or in practice. Antonrojo 15:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Minor editor of Scientology here. I've glanced through your debating and it all seems sensible but could you please give a thought to us down here editing the actual articles? We were having a nice debate on Talk:Scientology as to whether Scientology belonged in 'Cult' when an editor rearranged Category:Cults and dumped us into 'alleged cult'. Which, on the whole, we felt fair. Now 'alleged cult' has gone and we aren't anywhere because a bot tidied us away! So now I guess we have to recategorize Scientology into List_of_groups_referred_to_as_cults, where fortunately it already has a listing which we were ignoring as the List was, just the other day, depreciated.
As an opinion, I thought the previous version of Category:Cults, wherein actual organisations were all inside subcategories such as 'alleged cults', was the correct one. It is not for Wikipedia to say which organisations are or are not cults but to set out definitions and facts and let readers come to their own conclusions. -- Hartley Patterson 00:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
"not for Wikipedia to say which organisations are or are not cults" Yes, we are consensed about WP not "areing" or "ising" or labeling groups as cults, but that doesn't prevent cult reporting or categorizing by reference. "Referred to" and probably "reference" works NPOV, where "alleged" and "purported" don't, because WP points (refers) to others (reliable sources) who do the cult labeling. • But after understanding the cult reference as a basic tool, editors still get hung up on categorizing degrees of cult badness (often not realizing there are good and ok cults). It's consensed that WP can bad-cat
Destructive cults, but NPOV paralysis tends to set in on categorizing most others. Some cults are notoriously abusive, others are no worse than annoying, still others are inoffensive, presumed good enough, or actually beneficial. • To solve this problem (also for templates) I have proposed a category of cult references that point to subcategories of governments' cult judgments, including the subcategory of no judgment. See that proposal in the section below "Proposed Category:Cult references"
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
User:Milomedes (
talk •
contribs)
The (sub)main category is:
Cult references or Cult topics
• Destructive cults is currently accepted Wikipedia usage - they have been judged by governments as violent or as advocating violence.
• Legally entangled groups is an objective reporting standard, meaning reliable source reports about groups referred to as cults, who have also become legally entangled with civil court suits as plaintif or defendant, other court interactions/orders/fines including criminal cases, administrative orders/sanctions/fines, or police interactions/orders. When groups become involved with the law, they become subject to police/court/government/commercial journalism, and that includes how their neighbors refer to them, if relevant to the case.
• Other groups... are all the rest that reliable sources called a cult including beneficial cults (AA), probably good cults (Wikipedia), useful cults (Mary Kay), and the thousands of trouble-free local cults, old devotional cults, and fan-cults of popular culture.
† Sfacets proposed this title; maybe others did also.
Milo 10:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC) 01:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC) 14:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 18:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I've refined and reordered the subcats. Adding "other" avoids the need to place any groups outside of a subcat. • The several subcategories are for the same reason as avoiding listing a benign group next to the Manson family. An annoying group charged with an administrative infraction for blocking a sidewalk during mass begging, doesn't believe it's fair to list them next to a group whose leaders were convicted of non-violent felonies or sued for sex abuse. If a group paid fines for administrative infractions and was also sued for sex abuse, I think they could be listed in both administrative and civil court subcategories. • Technically it might be better to promote the dotted subcats to the numbered level (that's why there are elipses), but the titles would be long of necessity, maybe too long. For example:
9. Groups referred to as cults and legally entangled in civil court suits or
9. Groups referred to as cults and named in civil suits
but maybe longish titles promoted to the numbered level are the cleanest way to handle the categories?
Milo 14:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally support the proposals above and that categories need to refer to objective qualities of the groups listed as cults, etc. 'Destructive cults' qualifies provided this is defined based on crimes against people or property or at least the advocation of destruction by a group leader--and not simply a government designation of such (e.g. China with Falun Gong, nearly every country with the term 'terrorist'). I also think a meta-category of 'cult topics' is clearer than 'cult references'.
One option to consider for the 'groups referred to as cults' (or whatever similar name we agree on) is to wed the members of the category to the List of groups referred to as cults. This would help overcome the 'categories don't have annotations' problem and could be enforced by editors crosschecking the list and category members and removing articles not on that list (with a Talk note pointing them towards the List). Antonrojo 14:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
To illustrate the shallower way of categorizing mentioned by Will Beback, I have outline-promoted the legally-entangled subcats with short names on the dotted/elipses level, to long names on the numbered level. (See the top of this section.) Milo 18:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I renamed the category 'Anti-cult organizations' to 'Anti-cult organizations and individuals' so that it includes people such as Rick Ross who are better known as individuals than leaders of a specific organization. I think this is a trivial change.
There was some earlier debate regarding the inclusion of Rick Ross in the 'Researchers of cults and new religious movements'. I think he fits better in the 'anti-cult...' category because he's active in anti-cult interventions. This bias in research for or against cults is at least as important as requiring that individuals be published in academic journals--though for most individuals either rule will yield the same effect. Antonrojo 14:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
As per the consensus from the discussion above, it seemed like most people did not agree with created necessarily all of the sub-categories recommended by User:Milomedes, but one that most people kept coming back to related to the article Destructive cult. I have been bold and created the Category, Category:Destructive cults. Obviously, this category should only be populated with well-referenced examples, and I took the lead and populated it with well referenced examples from the article Destructive cult. Smeelgova 03:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC).
Does anyone think this is an overly POV category? I've noticed this category has been added to several organizations, etc. that are merely anti-cult, for example International Cultic Studies Association which doesn't mention Mormonism at all. This is very similar to Category:Anti-Semitic people and several others categories and pages listed at Category:Prejudices. I think that all of these conflict with the WP Guideline that categories should be self evident. Since editors working on the Cults category have had success working on similar issues, this might be a good project for a few editors to take on. Antonrojo 01:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
"editors working on the Cults category have had success working on similar issues" Hi FishUtah, I think Antonrojo made a useful suggestion. • I looked at your categories list
here (same as your link above), all of which contain the phrase "related to". From the CfD discussions I've seen, categories are routinely attacked for the kind of broad brush inclusions suggested by "related to". It wasn't my idea, but elsewhere I've written a lot about a theory of Wikipedia and the NPOV power of "referred to" or "references" in titles. Accordingly, you might think through and see if these work if renamed as follows:
No. 2 is on CfD as currently named, and does seem overly broad even after renaming. No. 5 may mean more to you than me, if there are a number of towns in Utah known to be anti-Mormon. If there aren't such towns, I have doubts about this cat. • You may or not need category rules to define what statements are "anti-Mormon". The regular Category:Cults editors have developed a method to do that if needed. Milo 05:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this would help alleviate some of the limitations with categories, mainly the problem that categories "appear without annotation". This would provide a criteria for adding/weeding entries to the category and can be policed by editors checking new members in the category against the list (at least until Wikimedia comes up with a better way to handle categories). The full WP:CAT guideline states: "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." Antonrojo 02:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Milo: You need to known when you are beating a dead horse. Absolutely oppose, for reasons already discussed in the many CFDs related to this subject.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 15:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And what in the world is LOGTARC? That is an inappropriate use of article namespace. I will delete. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
It is apparent from discussions on List of groups referred to as cults that cult is a derogative word - and this also implies that categorizing a group as a cult is POV and biased towards that group. You can't justify reverting by saying that the description had been stable for months, things change constantly. Sfacets 05:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I posted some weeks ago that something like this complaint was going to happen. I said then and now that the cat needs to be renamed Category:Cult references. Milo 10:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like the debate is whether to include the list of groups referred to as cults list in this category. To me, as long as these are legitimate sources, stating that a group was referred to as a cult is much different than saying that it is a cult. The difference is that the group such labeled would agree that the reference was made, which I see as a pretty good test of neutrality. Is there more to this debate? Antonrojo 04:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
We need to establish a clear and consistent policy regarding what is or is not categorized as a cult in Wikipedia. That is, which articles get this category tag, and which do not, and why. -- Serge 18:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV solution is to put those movements for which there is not a consensus of sources claiming they're cults in the "Alleged cults" category. It's a major POV violation to brand something definitively with a "Cult" tag when there are sources that disagree. RJII 15:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
"A cult is a group of like-minded people who seek to change the way individuals feel about one key or several key philosophical issues. A religion nothing more than a cult that have made it." - My definition, by Jack (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I put a POV tag on this article. Someone needs to go through and make sure everything in the list can be asserted as Cults. If there is disagreement among sources then it's a clear violation of NPOV policy to present them definitively as Cults. When sources disagree, the proper location for them would be under "Alleged cults." RJII 15:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I've been heavily critical on Wikipedia of certain religious movements with charismatic, authoritarian, abusive leaders, I'd be very hesitant to put many of them in this category due to NPOV issues. Consider these criteria from WP:CG:
These NPOV considerations apply particularly, IMO, to:
Do these concerns make sense to other editors? cheers, Jim Butler( talk) 07:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
To sidestep the issue of 'what is the cult' and reduce redunancy, I'm going to try out a restructuring of the category into a 'meta category' (in other words dealing with topics about cults rather than becoming a list). Organizations that have been called cults in media, government reports and academic research will be moved to List of groups referred to as cults, researchers about cults to a List of cult researchers, etc. and guidelines added to the article to make it clear where to put new articles in the category. If labeling of a group can't meet the criteria listed over at List of groups referred to as cults, I think that it probably shouldn't be called a cult. The current category takes the kitchen sink approach: anyone who wants to apply the cult label can do so. Antonrojo 22:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like you are simply removing entries from the category. If a group is included in List of groups referred to as cults, and there is mention of cult charges on the article page, then it should be in the category. This proposal isn't satisfactory. - Will Beback 01:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've done some reading on the subject and realized that there is fair amount of uncertainty around the proper purpose of categories. For general reference, here are a few of those links:
One thing that puzzled me a little was this statement from Wikipedia:Categorization: "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." A literal reading of this rule suggests that categories founded on at least partially subjective criteria, such as Category:Cults should have few if any items because there are really no criteria to prove that a group is 'at conflict with larger society' and 'has novel religious view', to take two examples from the cults list, in a way that is 'self-evident and uncontroversial.' Consensus on including an item is not enough for an item to be 'self-evident' which is defined as 'requiring no proof or explanation'.
Anyhow, in my opinion, including only cults in the category is tantamount to making it a list. Downsides of using a category for this instead of a list include: 1) the fact that the tag can be applied without reading its criteria--presumably this could be corrected by editors watching the category however, 2) watching a category for changes is much more difficult than watching a list. When a new article gets added to a category there is no notice so that editors notice it only if they regularly check the category and don't mind sifting through a long list of items or use a tool other than the watchlist, 3) the rationale for adding items to a list is visible both in edit comments and the talk page while for categories this requires backtracking. Similarly, the rationale can be directly integrated into the list, as is the case with List of groups referred to as cults. Antonrojo 17:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This is what I wrote on the WP:CfD page:
Here is my response to Glen on the WP:CfD page
For all the above reasons, including the fact that 'cult' is a word to avoid on Wikipedia, IMHO "cult" is a word that is inappropriate to use in category names. That is not to say it should not be used in articles themselves as per WP:WTA, i.e. where it is clear from the context how and why the label has been used and by whom. Perhaps "Category:Controversial religious groups" would be an acceptable alternative, since it would cover most if not all of the subject matter currently under "Catergory:Cults" without the POV problems -- the existence of controversy surrounding a group is a more objective criteria and something on which it is possible to achieve consensus on even with "cult apologists". Really Spooky 19:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus here to change the purpose of this category. I have deleted the new criteria added by Antonrojo. Please get agreement before changing it again. - Will Beback 22:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
(reset tab) I'm adding back the criteria and I'm interested on suggested changes to it. The 'removal of groups' what Will is referring to was an effort to migrate them over to List of cults which has some criteria for determining what a cult is. The subcategory approach that Dr U has taken instead is a good alternative for organizing the category. The second 'cleanup' issue was related to a lack of criteria for labeling groups as cults. The list of cults has a specified criteria for this, and the current alternative, labeling them as 'alleged cults' works as well.
The term 'alleged' is WP:AWW without some criteria for determining which sources are legitimate for these allegations (alleged by whom?), as well as providing a cite to them. Unfortunately categories, unlike articles, don't allow editors to add references to added items and are harder to police because changes don't show up on watchlists. Maybe someone could tweak this approach to better deal with the problems of creating and policing a criteria for whether a group is a cult. A first rough draft of criteria is at Category:Alleged_cults. Antonrojo 14:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
This reminds me over the arguments about what is a planet. Very scientific indeed. Cough! Note however that Encarta uses this word as well [8]. I think I will create a category for "controversial terms". Kmarinas86 01:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
To tie in with the article List of groups referred to as cults as well as to remove any percieved POV/bias.
What do people think? Sfacets 03:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't seem to find the CfD discussion. Did it really happen? I go to the link above and there doesn't seem to be a Cults entry. -- Tbeatty 05:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The CfD was closed with a "nealry consensus to keep". I would understand that by saying that there is no consensus to keep, hence it needs to be deleted. I have asked the closing admin to clarify. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Per prior discussion I placed most of the articles in category Cults into subcategories. There seemed to be agreement that something needed to be done. There didn't seem to be agreement on how to accomplish the tasks, so I used an amalgamization of ideas previously suggested, and thought up a few of my own. I think we can all agree it is tidier. I doubt there will be universal agreement that it is better. Let the bitching begin. Dr U 05:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that migrating members of Category:Cult leaders over to Category:Leaders of alleged cults makes sense. Feedback? Antonrojo 17:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the CfD was "nearly a consensus to keep". That means in my book, that there is no consensus to keep. If there was such consensus the closing admin would have said so. I have asked clarification from the clsoing admin. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that items on this list should be migrated over to List of groups referred to as cults based on WP policy [9] [10] and the latter states that "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category" and the other cite basically states that the term should be avoided unless it is defined in a strict academic sense. Moving these cases over to that list also seems to be supported by consensus, both in comments in the talk page, and the recent CfD for this category. If this category is to be retained, it should be a 'cult topics' category, in name or in practice. Antonrojo 15:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Minor editor of Scientology here. I've glanced through your debating and it all seems sensible but could you please give a thought to us down here editing the actual articles? We were having a nice debate on Talk:Scientology as to whether Scientology belonged in 'Cult' when an editor rearranged Category:Cults and dumped us into 'alleged cult'. Which, on the whole, we felt fair. Now 'alleged cult' has gone and we aren't anywhere because a bot tidied us away! So now I guess we have to recategorize Scientology into List_of_groups_referred_to_as_cults, where fortunately it already has a listing which we were ignoring as the List was, just the other day, depreciated.
As an opinion, I thought the previous version of Category:Cults, wherein actual organisations were all inside subcategories such as 'alleged cults', was the correct one. It is not for Wikipedia to say which organisations are or are not cults but to set out definitions and facts and let readers come to their own conclusions. -- Hartley Patterson 00:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
"not for Wikipedia to say which organisations are or are not cults" Yes, we are consensed about WP not "areing" or "ising" or labeling groups as cults, but that doesn't prevent cult reporting or categorizing by reference. "Referred to" and probably "reference" works NPOV, where "alleged" and "purported" don't, because WP points (refers) to others (reliable sources) who do the cult labeling. • But after understanding the cult reference as a basic tool, editors still get hung up on categorizing degrees of cult badness (often not realizing there are good and ok cults). It's consensed that WP can bad-cat
Destructive cults, but NPOV paralysis tends to set in on categorizing most others. Some cults are notoriously abusive, others are no worse than annoying, still others are inoffensive, presumed good enough, or actually beneficial. • To solve this problem (also for templates) I have proposed a category of cult references that point to subcategories of governments' cult judgments, including the subcategory of no judgment. See that proposal in the section below "Proposed Category:Cult references"
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
User:Milomedes (
talk •
contribs)
The (sub)main category is:
Cult references or Cult topics
• Destructive cults is currently accepted Wikipedia usage - they have been judged by governments as violent or as advocating violence.
• Legally entangled groups is an objective reporting standard, meaning reliable source reports about groups referred to as cults, who have also become legally entangled with civil court suits as plaintif or defendant, other court interactions/orders/fines including criminal cases, administrative orders/sanctions/fines, or police interactions/orders. When groups become involved with the law, they become subject to police/court/government/commercial journalism, and that includes how their neighbors refer to them, if relevant to the case.
• Other groups... are all the rest that reliable sources called a cult including beneficial cults (AA), probably good cults (Wikipedia), useful cults (Mary Kay), and the thousands of trouble-free local cults, old devotional cults, and fan-cults of popular culture.
† Sfacets proposed this title; maybe others did also.
Milo 10:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC) 01:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC) 14:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 18:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I've refined and reordered the subcats. Adding "other" avoids the need to place any groups outside of a subcat. • The several subcategories are for the same reason as avoiding listing a benign group next to the Manson family. An annoying group charged with an administrative infraction for blocking a sidewalk during mass begging, doesn't believe it's fair to list them next to a group whose leaders were convicted of non-violent felonies or sued for sex abuse. If a group paid fines for administrative infractions and was also sued for sex abuse, I think they could be listed in both administrative and civil court subcategories. • Technically it might be better to promote the dotted subcats to the numbered level (that's why there are elipses), but the titles would be long of necessity, maybe too long. For example:
9. Groups referred to as cults and legally entangled in civil court suits or
9. Groups referred to as cults and named in civil suits
but maybe longish titles promoted to the numbered level are the cleanest way to handle the categories?
Milo 14:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally support the proposals above and that categories need to refer to objective qualities of the groups listed as cults, etc. 'Destructive cults' qualifies provided this is defined based on crimes against people or property or at least the advocation of destruction by a group leader--and not simply a government designation of such (e.g. China with Falun Gong, nearly every country with the term 'terrorist'). I also think a meta-category of 'cult topics' is clearer than 'cult references'.
One option to consider for the 'groups referred to as cults' (or whatever similar name we agree on) is to wed the members of the category to the List of groups referred to as cults. This would help overcome the 'categories don't have annotations' problem and could be enforced by editors crosschecking the list and category members and removing articles not on that list (with a Talk note pointing them towards the List). Antonrojo 14:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
To illustrate the shallower way of categorizing mentioned by Will Beback, I have outline-promoted the legally-entangled subcats with short names on the dotted/elipses level, to long names on the numbered level. (See the top of this section.) Milo 18:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I renamed the category 'Anti-cult organizations' to 'Anti-cult organizations and individuals' so that it includes people such as Rick Ross who are better known as individuals than leaders of a specific organization. I think this is a trivial change.
There was some earlier debate regarding the inclusion of Rick Ross in the 'Researchers of cults and new religious movements'. I think he fits better in the 'anti-cult...' category because he's active in anti-cult interventions. This bias in research for or against cults is at least as important as requiring that individuals be published in academic journals--though for most individuals either rule will yield the same effect. Antonrojo 14:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
As per the consensus from the discussion above, it seemed like most people did not agree with created necessarily all of the sub-categories recommended by User:Milomedes, but one that most people kept coming back to related to the article Destructive cult. I have been bold and created the Category, Category:Destructive cults. Obviously, this category should only be populated with well-referenced examples, and I took the lead and populated it with well referenced examples from the article Destructive cult. Smeelgova 03:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC).
Does anyone think this is an overly POV category? I've noticed this category has been added to several organizations, etc. that are merely anti-cult, for example International Cultic Studies Association which doesn't mention Mormonism at all. This is very similar to Category:Anti-Semitic people and several others categories and pages listed at Category:Prejudices. I think that all of these conflict with the WP Guideline that categories should be self evident. Since editors working on the Cults category have had success working on similar issues, this might be a good project for a few editors to take on. Antonrojo 01:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
"editors working on the Cults category have had success working on similar issues" Hi FishUtah, I think Antonrojo made a useful suggestion. • I looked at your categories list
here (same as your link above), all of which contain the phrase "related to". From the CfD discussions I've seen, categories are routinely attacked for the kind of broad brush inclusions suggested by "related to". It wasn't my idea, but elsewhere I've written a lot about a theory of Wikipedia and the NPOV power of "referred to" or "references" in titles. Accordingly, you might think through and see if these work if renamed as follows:
No. 2 is on CfD as currently named, and does seem overly broad even after renaming. No. 5 may mean more to you than me, if there are a number of towns in Utah known to be anti-Mormon. If there aren't such towns, I have doubts about this cat. • You may or not need category rules to define what statements are "anti-Mormon". The regular Category:Cults editors have developed a method to do that if needed. Milo 05:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this would help alleviate some of the limitations with categories, mainly the problem that categories "appear without annotation". This would provide a criteria for adding/weeding entries to the category and can be policed by editors checking new members in the category against the list (at least until Wikimedia comes up with a better way to handle categories). The full WP:CAT guideline states: "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." Antonrojo 02:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Milo: You need to known when you are beating a dead horse. Absolutely oppose, for reasons already discussed in the many CFDs related to this subject.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 15:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And what in the world is LOGTARC? That is an inappropriate use of article namespace. I will delete. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
It is apparent from discussions on List of groups referred to as cults that cult is a derogative word - and this also implies that categorizing a group as a cult is POV and biased towards that group. You can't justify reverting by saying that the description had been stable for months, things change constantly. Sfacets 05:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I posted some weeks ago that something like this complaint was going to happen. I said then and now that the cat needs to be renamed Category:Cult references. Milo 10:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like the debate is whether to include the list of groups referred to as cults list in this category. To me, as long as these are legitimate sources, stating that a group was referred to as a cult is much different than saying that it is a cult. The difference is that the group such labeled would agree that the reference was made, which I see as a pretty good test of neutrality. Is there more to this debate? Antonrojo 04:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)